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  #51  
Old 09-21-2014, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by TriPolar View Post
I don't see the point of the 'honey pot' argument except it's entertainment value in this thread. If he had been set up, and even if that was proven at the time, it wouldn't have made the least difference in the actual primaries, he would have been disqualified by the voters, and would not get the nomination. He had a better chance as a voluntary adulterer than as a fool caught in a sting.
You ignore the need, by some, to pin Democratic foibles on Republican maliciousness. Or at least to channel every discussion about the former into a discussion about the latter.

And yes, we see that on the other side, too.
  #52  
Old 09-21-2014, 03:41 PM
Ibn Warraq Ibn Warraq is offline
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Sigh,

Second Stone, you have been asked twice to present a documented instance of an American politician set up for a Honey trap and have twice been either unwilling or unable to produce one.

You're the one who made the foolish statement implicitly arguing they were common.

For the third time, please either produce a reliable cite for this claim or withdraw it.

If once again you refuse to answer, I think it's fair to take your silence as an admission that you made a false claim.

Note, making a false claim is not tantamount to lying.
  #53  
Old 09-21-2014, 06:07 PM
Shodan Shodan is online now
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The Second Stone, if you want to assert that this was a set up, why don't you address the first and most screamingly obvious objection, which is that somehow the Evil Conspirators managed to get Hart to tell the press to follow him around and investigate his adulteries? How did they manage that? Mind control rays? Was Hart a sort of Manchurian Candidate, where he would drop his pants whenever he saw the Queen of Hearts?

On some level I hope that the Republicans could bring something like that off. It would make the next Presidential debate a good deal more entertaining.

Regards,
Shodan
  #54  
Old 09-21-2014, 06:21 PM
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Hart's dare makes sense once you understand the timeline. He thought he was "almost caught" in the act on the night of May 2, 1987. He sent Rice off with some friends thru the backdoor of his townhouse and never saw her again. It was the next day, May 3 that he made his famous dare. He was expecting to be on the straight and narrow, and didn't realize that reporters had be investigating him for weeks already.
  #55  
Old 09-21-2014, 10:04 PM
The Second Stone The Second Stone is offline
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Why would anyone need to say anything about that? Lewinski was not a plant. The relationship was already there-- they just exploited it for public consumption. Nixon and the Paris peace talks had nothing to do with a "honey pot".

You are the one who is being silent on a request to show even one example of a "honey pot" wrt a national figure in the last 50 years. Something you claimed was "nothing new or at all unusual". We're not holding our collective breath on that one...
Lewinsky certainly was put up to it like a fool by Goldberg and Tripp. Absolutely she was used as a honey pot. Unwittingly, but that is exactly how she was used. Tripp and Goldberg don't dispute it and don't talk about it at all.

You are changing the subject from conspiracy to the narrow variety of conspiracy of honey pot, rather than old fashioned treason as an example of a conspiracy that was not able to be proven until four decades later. Your method of reasoning is that a conspiracy cannot be discussed until it is already proven. That is a load of malarky, as the Paris Peace Talks example shows.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...the_honey_trap

http://www.zimbio.com/America%27s+50...+Correspondent

http://www.zimbio.com/America%27s+50...all+Pastor+Ted

http://www.zimbio.com/America%27s+50...th+Century+Sex
  #56  
Old 09-21-2014, 10:06 PM
The Second Stone The Second Stone is offline
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
The Second Stone, if you want to assert that this was a set up, why don't you address the first and most screamingly obvious objection, which is that somehow the Evil Conspirators managed to get Hart to tell the press to follow him around and investigate his adulteries? How did they manage that? Mind control rays? Was Hart a sort of Manchurian Candidate, where he would drop his pants whenever he saw the Queen of Hearts?

On some level I hope that the Republicans could bring something like that off. It would make the next Presidential debate a good deal more entertaining.

Regards,
Shodan
Good God that is entertaining.

Hart was arrogant and wrong. Clinton made the exact same mistake. That doesn't mean the mistress of either wasn't spilling the beans, wittingly or unwittingly, to the people who egged them on.


Beauregards,
TSS
  #57  
Old 09-21-2014, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by The Second Stone View Post
Lewinsky certainly was put up to it like a fool by Goldberg and Tripp. Absolutely she was used as a honey pot. Unwittingly, but that is exactly how she was used. Tripp and Goldberg don't dispute it and don't talk about it at all.
Lewinsky began her sexual relationship with Clinton almost a year before Tripp became involved. No one set it up.

Quote:
1995

June 1995: Monica Lewinsky, 21, comes to the White House as an unpaid intern in the office of Chief of Staff Leon Panetta.

November 1995: Lewinsky and President Bill Clinton begin a sexual relationship, according to audiotapes secretly recorded later by Linda Tripp.

December 1995: Lewinsky moves into a paid position in the Office of Legislative Affairs, handling letters from members of Congress. She frequently ferries mail to the Oval Office.

1996

April 1996: Then-Deputy White House Chief of Staff Evelyn Lieberman transfers Lewinsky to a job as an assistant to Pentagon spokesman Ken Bacon. Lieberman told The New York Times the move was due to "inappropriate and immature behavior" and inattention to work. At the Pentagon, Lewinsky meets Tripp, a career government worker.

Summer 1996: Lewinsky begins to tell fellow Pentagon employee Linda Tripp of her alleged relationship with Clinton.

1997

August 1997: Tripp encountered Kathleen Willey coming out of Oval Office "disheveled. Her face red and her lipstick was off." Willey later alleged that Clinton groped her. Clinton's lawyer, Bill Bennett said in the article that Linda Tripp is not to be believed.

Fall 1997: Tripp to begin taping conversations in which Lewinsky details her alleged affair with the president.
Quote:
You are changing the subject from conspiracy to the narrow variety of conspiracy of honey pot,
That's rich. You are the one hiding from your own claim that the "honey pot" was "nothing new or at all unusual". A claim you are unable to back up and so wish to move the goal post to general duplicity.

Sorry, not going to allow it. Wouldn't be prudent.

Last edited by John Mace; 09-21-2014 at 10:36 PM.
  #58  
Old 09-21-2014, 11:45 PM
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Yes, and Tripp and Goldberg egged her on to continue it and use it against her. You are the one who keeps moving the goal posts. I've cited a bunch of such incidents, and it is rather common. It is even more common in spying. You might want to look into it. I've provided the cites.
  #59  
Old 09-21-2014, 11:50 PM
Ibn Warraq Ibn Warraq is offline
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Good God that is entertaining.

Hart was arrogant and wrong. Clinton made the exact same mistake. That doesn't mean the mistress of either wasn't spilling the beans, wittingly or unwittingly, to the people who egged them on.


Beauregards,
TSS
Ok, you've been asked, at a minimum, four times to provide a cite for you bullshit assertion that the use of honey traps in American politics "was nothing new or unusual" and can't provide any examples of this.

You tried to claim that Monica Lewinsky was an example of this, but as John Mace demonstrated, proved ignorant of the fact that neither Goldberg nor Tripp had anything to do with encouraging Lewinsky to engage in such behavior.

Can we take it by your failure to provide an example of a honey trap being used that you're conceding your claim was stupid and wrongheaded?
  #60  
Old 09-22-2014, 12:35 AM
The Second Stone The Second Stone is offline
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Repeat citation to honey traps use in American politics. Are you folks asserting that they have never been used? If so, are the above citations fictions?

Here are some more:

Sen. John Ensign, blackmailed by a staffer for Ensign having an affair with staffer's wife.

Brian J. Doyle, set up by police to think he was seducing a 14 year old girl.

David Dreier, congressman who opposed gay rights outed as gay by man who befriended him for just that purpose.

Robert Bauman, attempting to solicit.

Thomas Evans with lobbyist Paula Parinson

Walter Jenkins

David Walsh

And, of course, the previously mentioned Alexander Hamilton affair and blackmailing which might have doomed his career all by itself had he not lost his life in duel due to rigging the pistols incorrectly.

Those are just federally related cases and prominent ones. The suggestion that honey pots never happen is ludicrous.
  #61  
Old 09-22-2014, 12:36 AM
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The suggestion that conspiracies never happen is also ludicrous.
  #62  
Old 09-22-2014, 01:10 AM
Ibn Warraq Ibn Warraq is offline
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Originally Posted by The Second Stone View Post
The suggestion that conspiracies never happen is also ludicrous.
Who has suggested that?

Please name the person who has and quote where they said that.

Quote:
Sen. John Ensign, blackmailed by a staffer for Ensign having an affair with staffer's wife.
Not a "honey trap".

Quote:
Brian J. Doyle, set up by police to think he was seducing a 14 year old girl.
Not a "honey trap" unless you consider Chris Harrison to be a practitioner of "honey traps".

Quote:
David Dreier, congressman who opposed gay rights outed as gay by man who befriended him for just that purpose.
Utter bullshit. He was caught fucking his Cheif of Staff. He wasn't the victim of a honey trap.

Quote:
Robert Bauman, attempting to solicit.
Oh bullshit! Do you actually read up on this or do you just do a quick google search and hope everyone will just take what you say at face value. He was caught screwing an underage prostitute, that's not remotely close to being the victim of a honey trap.

Quote:
Thomas Evans with lobbyist Paula Parinson
Not a victim of a honey trap.

Quote:
Walter Jenkins
Oh please! I newly wet myself laughing at this. He was caught screwing another man in a public place. Frankly you could make a more credible claim that the idiot Idaho senator was a victim of a "honey trap".

Quote:
David Walsh
Ok this example is possibly the dumbest example you've provided.

Are you under the impression he was set up by his American political opponents because I've seen no evidence of this or do you not know what a "honey trap" is?
  #63  
Old 09-22-2014, 08:37 AM
Shodan Shodan is online now
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Good God that is entertaining.
Your posts, on the other hand, are pathetic.
Quote:
Hart was arrogant and wrong. Clinton made the exact same mistake. That doesn't mean the mistress of either wasn't spilling the beans, wittingly or unwittingly, to the people who egged them on.
Do you have any evidence that Hart was set up, or not? So far, obviously, the answer is Not.

Regards,
Shodan
  #64  
Old 09-22-2014, 10:03 AM
notquitekarpov notquitekarpov is offline
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Hart and McGovern would have been excellent Presidents, in my view.

Given that the US electoral majority has almost never seemed to agree with my views, I suspect that Hart would have lost the election if nominated.
  #65  
Old 09-22-2014, 10:14 AM
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Lest we forget the actual assertion made in his first post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Second Stone
I've always had the unsupported suspicion that she was a plant sent by someone like Atwater.
A "plant" is not when you find out, after the fact, that someone is having an affair. A "plant" is when you set someone up to start the affair from the beginning. Hart cooked his own goose, just like Clinton did. No one set either of them up.
  #66  
Old 09-22-2014, 11:16 AM
Shodan Shodan is online now
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Not to mention the other (ahem) unsubstantiated accusation that Bush Sr had a mistress.

Which apparently we know is true because LBJ wire-tapped Nixon, or Alexander Hamilton conspired with Linda Tripp to set up Brian Doyle, or something.

Regards,
Shodan
  #67  
Old 09-22-2014, 11:36 AM
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I thought it was generally accepted that Bush had an affair with, IIRC, his female driver during WWII in Europe. But not during the campaign we are discussing in this thread.

The whole point of the Hart affair (pun intended) was that reporters broke the veil of secrecy that had been understood to protect powerful pols from most accusations of affairs over the years.
  #68  
Old 09-22-2014, 12:34 PM
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Why was Gary Hart perceived as a front runner for the Democratic nom ination in 1988? Because he had tons of money? No. Because he had the unions in his corner? No. Because he was extraordinarily popular? Again, no.

Hart was perceived as a frontrunner in 1988 almost solely because he'd been a (very distant) runner-up for the nomination in 1984. He had no prayer of winning in 1984, but got a lot of free publicity that year from reporters who wanted to pretend there was a competitive race going on.

In 1988, Hart was one of MANY so-so candidates seeking the Democratic nomination, along with Richard Gephardt, Michael Dukakis, Al Gore, Jesse Jackson, Joe Biden, Bruce Babbitt and Paul Simon. (You may recall that was the year a then-bald Joe Biden shot himself in the foot by stealing British Labourite Neil Kinnock's speech!)

Hart had a chance, certainly, but he was FAR from a lock to win the nomination even if there'd been no scandals.

Last edited by astorian; 09-22-2014 at 12:34 PM.
  #69  
Old 09-22-2014, 12:40 PM
Shodan Shodan is online now
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I thought it was generally accepted that Bush had an affair with, IIRC, his female driver during WWII in Europe.
I think that was Eisenhower. Bush Sr was in the Navy; I don't think he had a driver. (ETA: He didn't marry Barbara until after he returned from the Pacific and had left the Navy). He was accused of having an affair with his secretary, because she worked for him for a long time in the various positions he held.

Unless I have been whooshed....

Regards,
Shodan

Last edited by Shodan; 09-22-2014 at 12:42 PM.
  #70  
Old 09-22-2014, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
I think that was Eisenhower. Bush Sr was in the Navy; I don't think he had a driver. (ETA: He didn't marry Barbara until after he returned from the Pacific and had left the Navy). He was accused of having an affair with his secretary, because she worked for him for a long time in the various positions he held.

Unless I have been whooshed....

Regards,
Shodan
No, you're probably right. It's hard to keep all these pols and their various affairs straight.
  #71  
Old 09-22-2014, 01:46 PM
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No, you're probably right. It's hard to keep all these pols and their various affairs straight.
That's what special prosecutors are for.

Regards,
Shodan
  #72  
Old 09-22-2014, 02:11 PM
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George H.W. Bush was rumored to have had several affairs over many years. The only reason it's pertinent to this topic is to mention that none of the rumors have been substantiated, and he didn't challenge the press to follow him around, so it has no bearing on the actual Hart situation. If Hart had been the victim of unsubstantiated rumors, and not evidence of actual affairs, he would not have been treated any differently than Bush.

ETA: Or not treated much differently, the press and politics don't operate on a fairness basis.

Last edited by TriPolar; 09-22-2014 at 02:11 PM.
  #73  
Old 09-22-2014, 03:25 PM
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In fact, if you look at Clinton, there was all kinds of evidence of several affairs before and during the campaign, yet he was able to skirt the issue almost completely. But it's hard to pass up a picture of a candidate with a blonde sitting on his lap on a boat called "Monkey Business". That's a slow lob across the plate...

Last edited by John Mace; 09-22-2014 at 03:26 PM.
  #74  
Old 09-22-2014, 03:25 PM
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Not to mention the other (ahem) unsubstantiated accusation that Bush Sr had a mistress.

Which apparently we know is true because LBJ wire-tapped Nixon, or Alexander Hamilton conspired with Linda Tripp to set up Brian Doyle, or something.

Regards,
Shodan
Bush did have a longtime paramour her name, which finally came to me, is Jennifer Fitzgerald. But she isn't a honey pot, but rather a long term paramour and staffer of his. Neither he nor she ever confirmed an affair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
I thought it was generally accepted that Bush had an affair with, IIRC, his female driver during WWII in Europe. But not during the campaign we are discussing in this thread.

The whole point of the Hart affair (pun intended) was that reporters broke the veil of secrecy that had been understood to protect powerful pols from most accusations of affairs over the years.
Bush served in the Pacific and did not have a driver. Perhaps you are thinking of Eisenhower and the rumors about his driver, Kay Sommersby. Neither Eisenhower or Sommersby ever confirmed those rumors.
  #75  
Old 09-22-2014, 03:57 PM
Ibn Warraq Ibn Warraq is offline
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Bush did have a longtime paramour her name, which finally came to me, is Jennifer Fitzgerald. But she isn't a honey pot, but rather a long term paramour and staffer of his.
And you know this definitively how?

Yes, there were rumors, but rumors and facts are not always the same.

Do you have any compelling evidence for this or is this a case of "my post is my cite"?
  #76  
Old 09-22-2014, 04:11 PM
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Bush did have a longtime paramour her name, which finally came to me, is Jennifer Fitzgerald.
You use the word "did" in the sense of "Hillary Clinton did kill Vince Foster". Right?
  #77  
Old 09-22-2014, 04:28 PM
Shodan Shodan is online now
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Do you have any compelling evidence for this or is this a case of "my post is my cite"?
Hilary Clinton tried to push this briefly to counter the entirely true talk about Bill's whoring, but the story originally appears to have been made up by some CNN reporter's wife who was trying to push a book. She claimed some ambassador (conveniently dead) told her.

After all, they wouldn't be allowed to publish that if it weren't true!

Regards,
Shodan
  #78  
Old 09-22-2014, 06:14 PM
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You use the word "did" in the sense of "Hillary Clinton did kill Vince Foster". Right?
It's unsurprising to find that you think Hillary Clinton killed Vince Foster.
  #79  
Old 09-22-2014, 06:43 PM
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It's unsurprising to find that you think Hillary Clinton killed Vince Foster.
That would be funny if it weren't absurd.
  #80  
Old 09-22-2014, 07:09 PM
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My thought exactly.
  #81  
Old 09-22-2014, 10:29 PM
Ibn Warraq Ibn Warraq is offline
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My thought exactly.
So anyway since you claim to know that George H. W. Bush was having an affair with Fitzgerald despite admitting you couldn't even initially remember her name please produce the evidence for this or is this merely going to be another case of "my post is my cite"?

Thanks in advance.

Last edited by Ibn Warraq; 09-22-2014 at 10:32 PM.
  #82  
Old 09-22-2014, 10:41 PM
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My thought exactly.
Actually, it's unsurprising to me that you would make yet another factually incorrect statement in this thread, or in this forum. What is one more added to so many?
  #83  
Old 09-23-2014, 01:26 AM
The Second Stone The Second Stone is offline
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You use the word "did" in the sense of "Hillary Clinton did kill Vince Foster". Right?
You are the one who accused Hillary Clinton of killing Vince Foster in this thread. It is not an accurate statement at all. You have made so many inaccurate statements in this thread alone, so many changed definitions, so much turning a blind eye to history, so many shifted burdens of proof on your part. That is a lot of carrying water and sweeping away political shenanigans. Yet always for one side. At least I will actually criticize liberals, my own people. Never seen you do that to conservatives. Even when Nixon is finally nailed dead to rights on treason, just silence from you with respect to Nixon and the claim that not only was Gary Hart not honey trapped, but it never happened in American politics. And when I give you half a dozen examples, just silence. Crickets. Ignoring it hoping it will go away.

Last edited by The Second Stone; 09-23-2014 at 01:27 AM.
  #84  
Old 09-23-2014, 04:31 AM
Ibn Warraq Ibn Warraq is offline
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You are the one who accused Hillary Clinton of killing Vince Foster in this thread. It is not an accurate statement at all. You have made so many inaccurate statements in this thread alone, so many changed definitions, so much turning a blind eye to history, so many shifted burdens of proof on your part. That is a lot of carrying water and sweeping away political shenanigans. Yet always for one side. At least I will actually criticize liberals, my own people. Never seen you do that to conservatives. Even when Nixon is finally nailed dead to rights on treason, just silence from you with respect to Nixon and the claim that not only was Gary Hart not honey trapped, but it never happened in American politics. And when I give you half a dozen examples, just silence. Crickets. Ignoring it hoping it will go away.
Your examples were bullshit.

Once again, you claim to know for a fact that George H. W. Bush had an affair with Jennifer Fitzgerald, despite admitting that you knew so little about the case you couldn't even remember her name.

I think that is an utterly moronic claim.

Prove me wrong and provide compelling evidence to support your ludicrous assertion.

Once again, thanks in advance.
  #85  
Old 09-23-2014, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by The Second Stone View Post
You are the one who accused Hillary Clinton of killing Vince Foster in this thread. It is not an accurate statement at all. You have made so many inaccurate statements in this thread alone, so many changed definitions, so much turning a blind eye to history, so many shifted burdens of proof on your part. That is a lot of carrying water and sweeping away political shenanigans. Yet always for one side. At least I will actually criticize liberals, my own people. Never seen you do that to conservatives. Even when Nixon is finally nailed dead to rights on treason, just silence from you with respect to Nixon and the claim that not only was Gary Hart not honey trapped, but it never happened in American politics. And when I give you half a dozen examples, just silence. Crickets. Ignoring it hoping it will go away.
So much bullshit, I'm going to let it just rot where it sits.
  #86  
Old 09-23-2014, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
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You are the one who accused Hillary Clinton of killing Vince Foster in this thread.
Knock it off.

This utterly twists what was posted in the context that it was posted and the only reasonable conclusion one may draw from this claim is that either you do not have the intellectual competence to post in this forum or you are trolling. The rest of your paragraph follows along the same lines.

EVERYONE needs to dial back on the hostility in this thread,
but you need to post in a way that I can be sure is not trolling.

[ /Moderating ]
  #87  
Old 09-24-2014, 10:04 AM
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  #88  
Old 10-18-2018, 01:44 PM
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Updating this thread it turns out that this was all a setup orchestrated by Lee Atwater (a Republican political consultant famous for race baiting--remember the Willie Horton ad):
Quote:
“I asked him how he could be so certain,” Hart told me. Strother then recounted his long-ago talk with Atwater, and Atwater’s claim that the whole Monkey Business weekend had occurred at his direction. According to Hart, that plan would have involved: contriving an invitation from Broadhurst for Hart to come on a boat ride, when Hart intended to be working on a speech. Ensuring that young women would be invited aboard. Arranging for the Broadhurst boat Hart thought he would be boarding, with some unmemorable name, to be unavailable—so that the group would have to switch to another boat, Monkey Business. Persuading Broadhurst to “forget” to check in with customs clearance at Bimini before closing time, so that the boat “unexpectedly” had to stay overnight there. And, according to Hart, organizing an opportunistic photo-grab.

“There were a lot of people on the dock, people getting off their boats and wandering up and down on the wharf,” Hart told me. “While I was waiting for Broadhurst and whatever he was working out with the customs people, I sat on this little piling on the pier.” Hart said that Donna Rice’s friend and companion on the boat, Lynn Armandt, was standing a short distance away. “Miss Armandt made a gesture to Miss Rice, and she immediately came over and sat on my lap. Miss Armandt took the picture. The whole thing took less than five seconds, with lots of other people around. It was clearly staged, but it was used after the fact to prove that some intimacy existed.”
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...set-up/570802/

Last edited by PastTense; 10-18-2018 at 01:48 PM.
  #89  
Old 10-18-2018, 03:51 PM
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Wow. Atwater really was a piece of work.
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Old 10-18-2018, 04:27 PM
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Updating this thread it turns out that this was all a setup orchestrated by Lee Atwater (a Republican political consultant famous for race baiting--remember the Willie Horton ad):

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...set-up/570802/
That's an interesting theory. Of course, it is based on a five minute conversation with a man dying of a brain tumor, in 1991, with no corroboration, and accusing another person (Broadhurst) also conveniently dead of bribery, also with no corroboration. But there is a movie coming out about it, so who needs proof?

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 10-18-2018, 05:15 PM
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Bribery is a cause of death?
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Old 10-18-2018, 08:33 PM
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That's an interesting theory. Of course, it is based on a five minute conversation with a man dying of a brain tumor, in 1991, with no corroboration, and accusing another person (Broadhurst) also conveniently dead of bribery, also with no corroboration. But there is a movie coming out about it, so who needs proof?

Regards,
Shodan
Well, gee, Atwater was going to provide the detailed plans, graphs, charts and a scale model of The Monkey Business Conspiracy to provide absolute proof to silence the doubters, but that darn brain tumor was just too quick.

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  #93  
Old 10-18-2018, 10:55 PM
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It does bear repeating that the press wasn't following Hart, they were following Rice. I haven't read the Atlantic article, but I did see Rachel Maddow's piece on the story. I first heard this story over 25 years ago from a friend of my wife and discounted it then. But Maddow says that the guy who Atwater apologized to had shared the story with "some of his journalist friends". My wife's friend is the sister of the person referenced in the following link.

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1990/10...7580655099200/

I also note that an attempt by the Republicans to "stack the deck" for the opposition party was the very essence of Watergate, take out the strongest candidate early and run against the weaker one (Canuck letter, anybody?).

Nothing proves anything, of course. But it does make one wonder and you don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to think that, hey yeah, this might just be the way it went down.

The Maddow story, if you're interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHOu7WAgZCU
  #94  
Old 10-19-2018, 12:43 PM
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It does bear repeating that the press wasn't following Hart, they were following Rice. I haven't read the Atlantic article, but I did see Rachel Maddow's piece on the story. I first heard this story over 25 years ago from a friend of my wife and discounted it then. But Maddow says that the guy who Atwater apologized to had shared the story with "some of his journalist friends". My wife's friend is the sister of the person referenced in the following link.

I also note that an attempt by the Republicans to "stack the deck" for the opposition party was the very essence of Watergate, take out the strongest candidate early and run against the weaker one (Canuck letter, anybody?).

Nothing proves anything, of course. But it does make one wonder and you don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to think that, hey yeah, this might just be the way it went down.
From Maddow hunh? Well, at least we know she's an honest broker who doesn't have an ax to grind.
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Old 10-19-2018, 05:29 PM
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The fact that one might have an axe (or is it ax) to grind doesn't make what they're saying false. Especially when all she's doing basically is giving someone else's story wider exposure.
  #96  
Old 10-21-2018, 02:19 PM
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Huh, that's a coincidence, I'm currently reading 'The Strategies of Zeus', a 1987 novel written by him.

Message ends, please carry on (his name in the title of this thread caught my eye as I was browsing the SD)
  #97  
Old 10-22-2018, 08:41 AM
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The fact that one might have an axe (or is it ax) to grind doesn't make what they're saying false. Especially when all she's doing basically is giving someone else's story wider exposure.
Sure it does. She's giving the story "wider exposure" by putting her spin on it, ignoring what she wants to embellishing what comes closest to proving her point.

There's a vast difference between being a journalist and being a shill - and that counts for both sides.
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Old 10-22-2018, 08:55 AM
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Sure it does. She's giving the story "wider exposure" by putting her spin on it, ignoring what she wants to embellishing what comes closest to proving her point.

There's a vast difference between being a journalist and being a shill - and that counts for both sides.
And there is a vast difference between saying something and providing evidence for what you say. In what way did she embellish this story?
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Old 10-22-2018, 02:35 PM
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And there is a vast difference between saying something and providing evidence for what you say. In what way did she embellish this story?
In what ways didn't she?

She notes from 5 or 6 newspapers that Gary Hart is the front runner for the nomination, as proof that he was the de facto nominee. What she doesn't discuss is that these articles are from May of 1986, two and a half years before the election. Not two and a half weeks or months. That is a life time in politics.

Did you know that Trump was the guy four years ago? No way. The Republican nominee four years ago was Bush. You would have bet the house on it. Do you know who the Democratic nominee was in 2006? You would have bet the house it was Hillary Clinton. No way you would be thought it was Obama.

Do you know who the Democratic nominee is today (only two years out)? It is a huge stretch to know the nominee that far out but she's acting as it it's without question.

Hart had woman issues before and after this one incident. She doesn't mention that. He came back in later and tried to re-start his campaign but had issues with his 1984 campaign and the huge debt that he left and was forced out. She doesn't discuss that.

Storther has no proof that this conversation with Atwater ever took place. But we are to believe that he's told of this in 1991, a major issue to him and Hart at least if true. What does he do in 1991 with this bombshell? He waits 26 years until he is sick to tell Gary Hart about that? He just hangs on to this information and decided to tell no one? Does that seem likely at all?

She makes Hart into a much less flawed candidate than he really was.

She focuses on all of the points that she thinks proves this, and ignores all of the significant issues. Embellishment from where I'm sitting, and I kinda liked the guy way back when.
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