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  #51  
Old 10-10-2018, 09:04 PM
smiling bandit smiling bandit is offline
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Originally Posted by The_Peyote_Coyote View Post
Actually, I think Islam derives from Judaism. I know that Jesus is supposed to considered as a prophet, but, from what little I've read of the Koran, it seems to me to be based heavily on the Pentateuch. If I am wrong, I welcome correction.
Most likely, it was a kind of split of Christianity. I say "kind of" because it's pretty clear that Muhammed invented large aspects of the religion as his own take-away version, and there's no evidence that he was Christian or Jewish. Christian missionaries (I believe of the Maronite Catholic church) were proselytizing in the region just before the founding of Islam. My view is that Muhammed crossed these beliefs with Judaism and also a lot of folk beliefs and culture common to the Arabian tribes to create Islam.

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Originally Posted by Ramira
Is there any reason why the Roman and the Sassanid states would not engage in the same warfare as they did?
Rome had been fighting various Persian empires off-and-on since before Christianity existed, and continued to do so basically until the rise of the Caliphate occupied what us now Iraq, separating them until Persia fell. The issues between East and West were primarily geopolitical although they sometimes had wars purely because one leader or another wanted glory. Religion was no more than a side issue that occaisionally influenced later conflicts, but doesn't seem to have been a major point of contention.
  #52  
Old 10-11-2018, 05:48 AM
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Ramira Ramira is offline
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Originally Posted by smiling bandit View Post
My view is that Muhammed crossed these beliefs with Judaism and also a lot of folk beliefs and culture common to the Arabian tribes to create Islam.
Maronites do not exist until the middle ages. The Syriac missionaries, yes, but they had already led to the conversion in the 300s of the Nubian principalities and the Aksum, state conversion before Rome itself, that then also sent its missionaries.

Whatever origin is wanted to be imagined, what is clear is the Islamic precepts were a a great departure from the folk beliefs, excepting the hajj, of the western arabian tribes.

As a matter of historical facticity, it is the case in the Arabian west, there were already, quite independent from the Roman state, the communities of the Jews and the various christians, and that the missionaries and the relations in the commerce went north to the Levant and the Mesopotamia but also and as important to the Red Sea and to the African shores where the christian Aksum was important to them in trade - as noted it was there and not to the north that early Muslims took refuge.


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Rome had been fighting various Persian empires off-and-on since before Christianity existed, and continued to do so basically until the rise of the Caliphate occupied what us now Iraq, separating them until Persia fell. The issues between East and West were primarily geopolitical although they sometimes had wars purely because one leader or another wanted glory. Religion was no more than a side issue that occaisionally influenced later conflicts, but doesn't seem to have been a major point of contention.
Yes, I know. That was my point.
  #53  
Old 10-11-2018, 05:51 AM
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Ramira Ramira is offline
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A point that gets obscured by the label "Christian" is that there were a plethora of Christian sects which did not get along terribly well with each other. Without something like Constantine's decision to not only endorse Christianity but call a council where the church leadership hammered out one unified orthodox creed, much of Christianity's influence would have been dissipated in internal squabbling (which happened anyway to a degree, but considerably less so that it did given the imperial imprimatur upon the One True Christian Church[tm]).
This is nonsense without grounding in the history.

The internal divisions and the futile attempts of the Constantinople to impose one orthodoxy continued right through to the Islamic conquest and indeed it was those divisions that led the 'heretical' factions actually welcoming the Islamic armies (who imposed the lower taxes and gave no fucks about imposing an orthodoxy).
  #54  
Old 10-11-2018, 08:36 AM
smiling bandit smiling bandit is offline
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Originally Posted by Ramira View Post
Maronites do not exist until the middle ages. The Syriac missionaries, yes, but they had already led to the conversion in the 300s of the Nubian principalities and the Aksum, state conversion before Rome itself, that then also sent its missionaries.
I'm pretty sure the Maronites were indeed active. They weren't necessarily a formalized church as such at the time, sure. But the movement was clearly there, travelling and proselytizing from at least 500 AD, although they didn't that far south immediately. I'm open to correction, but I did double-check my dates.

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Whatever origin is wanted to be imagined, what is clear is the Islamic precepts were a a great departure from the folk beliefs, excepting the hajj, of the western arabian tribes.
That I'm not entirely in agreement with. Yes, outside influences were clearly mixed in. But an awful lot of Islam seems to be grounded in the tribal culture of Arabia.

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Yes, I know. That was my point.
Yes. I wasn't disagreeing with you.

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The internal divisions and the futile attempts of the Constantinople to impose one orthodoxy continued right through to the Islamic conquest and indeed it was those divisions that led the 'heretical' factions actually welcoming the Islamic armies (who imposed the lower taxes and gave no fucks about imposing an orthodoxy).
And don't get me started on the Donatists.
  #55  
Old 10-11-2018, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by smiling bandit View Post
I'm pretty sure the Maronites were indeed active.
The maronite church are a formation from the post crusades era.

The variety of the schisms that eventually coalesced to them, yes they existed and doubtless in the bubbling of the many schisms of the era of the 300s to the 500s there are no doubt the missionaries of various tendencies from the Syria - Levant region, but an entity that is the Maronites as the church entity, no - that is the Maronite church writing itself back into history deeper, a political fiction. Saying Maronite implies the later coherence and that to me is a political fiction.

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That I'm not entirely in agreement with. Yes, outside influences were clearly mixed in. But an awful lot of Islam seems to be grounded in the tribal culture of Arabia.
as you wish, I do not agree. And I am not arabe.
  #56  
Old 10-11-2018, 11:22 AM
Some Call Me... Tim Some Call Me... Tim is offline
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Originally Posted by The_Peyote_Coyote View Post
Actually, I think Islam derives from Judaism. I know that Jesus is supposed to considered as a prophet, but, from what little I've read of the Koran, it seems to me to be based heavily on the Pentateuch. If I am wrong, I welcome correction.
Yes, and to add to this the premise of the OP was not that Christianity never existed at all, but that it never took root as the dominant religion in the Roman Empire. Jesus would presumably still have existed as a prophet- indeed the existence of a more limited-in-scope christianity is not precluded by the OP. I don't see what would prevent Islam from existing in this scenario.
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