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Old 02-23-2020, 10:15 PM
Skald the Rhymer is offline
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Define "lying".


Yesterday, I learned that my favorite cousin, "HANNAH", had been admitted to the hospital for a serious condition. I wanted to visit her ASAP, something my worthless eyeballs makes more complicated than it was a few years ago. Not being an idiot, I did not wish to expose her to my three bio kids, all under eight years old and suffering from one version of the sniffles or another. Therefore I arranged for my stepdaughter to sit with them today while I found some other way there.

When I arrived at Hannah's hospital room, she was happy to see me but wondered how I had gotten there, since I was clearly not with Cinderella the Rhymer. I asked if she wanted the truth or the official story, whereupon she smiled and said that I should just be myself. So I told her a series of tall tales that began with my riding to the hospital mounted on a stolen rhinoceros and culminated with my claiming I had to leave within minutes because I was being pursued by the Justice League for my complicity in the sinking of Núnenor. Hannah appeared to enjoy the ridiculous stories.

Also present while I was visiting with Hannah was another of our cousins, "STEVE", a Pentecostal minister with whom I do not get along with in any way because we are incompatible species of asshole. (Hannah is not an asshole of any genus.)  at one point during the visit we were both chased out of Hannah's room by her nurse. During this time, Steve opined to me that I should not have been telling lies to Hannah, as deceit is never justified. I thought about explaining to Steve that there had been no deceit involved, as Hannah had not been intended to believe any of my clearly impossible stories, only amused by them. I realized I was about to engage Steve in one-on-one conversation, something that is definitely my policy to avoid, so I shrugged and said something like "Whatever, dude."

Which brings us to the thread question. I am not interested in discussing whether my behavior with Hannah was correct, as it clearly was and only a Pentecostal biblical literalist (another term for "asshole") could think otherwise. Instead I would like to discuss the definition of lying. To wit: is a lie any untruthful statement, regardless of the knowledge and/or intention of the utterer? Is, rather, a lie only a statement that the speaker SHOULD know is untrue, whether or not they actually do, and whether or not they intend to deceive? Or is a lie a statement that the utterer intends to use to deceive, regardless of its truth or falsity?

I would say number three. In that sense, the tall tales I told Hannah to cheer her up we're not lies because I had no intention of her believing them. It wouldn't have mattered if she were so credulous as to believe I had actually stolen a rhino or pissed off Namor; only my intent matters. Contrariwise, I could have lied to her by telling her the literal truth about who had driven me by phrasing my response so she would not believe it.

Do the possibilities I listed above include your definition of lying, or do you prefer some alternative I left out?
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Old 02-23-2020, 10:21 PM
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Lying is speaking (what you believe to be) falsehood. Otherwise you are merely bullshitting. Deception is very general, of course.

ETA a possibly non-deceptive blatant bald-faced lie is, of course, still technically a lie.

Last edited by DPRK; 02-23-2020 at 10:23 PM.
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Old 02-23-2020, 10:32 PM
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Lying is the deliberate act of attempting to convince someone of a falsehood.

What Skald describes in the second paragraph is not lying, because it does not constitute an attempt to convince Hannah of falsehoods; it is understood the stories are meant solely as entertainment. It is no more a lie than when a novelist writes a story.

If the scenario in paragraph five were to arise whereby a person was so weirdly credulous that they believed a story to be true, that is not lying, as it clearly was not the intent of the storyteller to do that and a person's delusion is hardly the storyteller's fault.
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Old 02-23-2020, 10:43 PM
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I agree that no one would brand a novelist a liar; it was a technical point. We must distinguish lying from merely "uttering a false statement" without regard to context, otherwise the result is absurd (I would be a liar for trying to explain certain syllogisms, for example). So I take my comment back. Note that Kant, Aristotle, et al. proposed that one cannot ethically lie, so that should give some hint of what it means.
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Old 02-23-2020, 11:16 PM
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For a statement to be a lie two conditions must be satisfied; the statement must be objectively false, and the person making the statement must intend to deceive the person to whom it is made.

It's possible that I might intend to deceive someone (and might actually deceive someone) by making carefully selected true statements. Usually this involves omitting other equally true statements so as to create a misleading impression. For example, I might tell you that the UK and France declared war on Germany in 1939 (true) while refraining from making other true statements that I could have made about the events leading up to that, with the aim of leading you to think (falsely) that German was the victim of agression in that war. In that example I would not have told a lie, though I would be guilty of an attempt to deceive you.

There's a grey area where I make a statement that I can plausibly defend as objectively true, but which I hope you will understand in a way which would make it objectively false. The truth or falsity of "I did not have sex with that woman!" depends on what one thinks having sex involves.

Last edited by UDS; 02-23-2020 at 11:20 PM.
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Old 02-23-2020, 11:30 PM
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Story telling is not lying.
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Old 02-23-2020, 11:54 PM
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Steve may be on the autism spectrum. It's been my experience that people on the high functioning end often still have a great deal of trouble differentiating between telling a lie and telling a good story (or telling a story well). In their world, there is no grey area, all is black or white. And the purpose of communication is to convey information.

I have a friend - one of my all time favorite people - who sees it this way. When she tells a story she repeats the details perfectly as they happened, and when somebody else tells it, she's a stickler for them being properly noted. She will interrupt constantly and bicker over specifics. If I can't remember what year something happened, she will pull out her phone and try to find a corresponding news event to nail it down. Details that have no real bearing on the story whatsoever. I got together with her recently and was reminded of just how hard it is to laugh with her, because every story becomes a news report.

Or he may just be lower in IQ. People who are often fooled are sensitive about seeing it happen to others. And imagination, to those who have little or none of it, is an anxiety-producing thing to observe.

Whichever condition he might be in, if he grew up in a Pentecostal home, he was unlikely to have gotten proper help or diagnosis. He has probably always just looked around for easy, clear answers, and latched on to whoever might give them to him. Pentecostal Seminary fits the bill.
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Old 02-23-2020, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
Lying is the deliberate act of attempting to convince someone of a falsehood...
I agree with this definition. Fiction is rarely "lying", as it's usually told in a way that signals that it's not true.

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Originally Posted by UDS View Post
...It's possible that I might intend to deceive someone (and might actually deceive someone) by making carefully selected true statements. Usually this involves omitting other equally true statements so as to create a misleading impression. For example, I might tell you that the UK and France declared war on Germany in 1939 (true) while refraining from making other true statements that I could have made about the events leading up to that, with the aim of leading you to think (falsely) that German was the victim of agression in that war. In that example I would not have told a lie, though I would be guilty of an attempt to deceive you...
Yes, I would call that being disingenuous, or deceitful, but not telling lies.
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Old 02-24-2020, 12:33 AM
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I would say number three. In that sense, the tall tales I told Hannah to cheer her up we're not lies because I had no intention of her believing them. It wouldn't have mattered if she were so credulous as to believe I had actually stolen a rhino or pissed off Namor; only my intent matters. Contrariwise, I could have lied to her by telling her the literal truth about who had driven me by phrasing my response so she would not believe it.

Do the possibilities I listed above include your definition of lying, or do you prefer some alternative I left out?
Namor? Namor isn’t in the Justice League. Just what are you trying to pull, Buster?
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Old 02-24-2020, 01:38 AM
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If intent to deceive is necessary, then what about the saying "You made a liar out of me!" when one finds out they have been fed bad information?
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Old 02-24-2020, 02:20 AM
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An author is a liar with a keyboard. A propagandist (AKA lying sack-of-shit) shouts from a platform. A fool convinces themself their lies are real. Your mommy lies to you out of kindness. Over- or under-supplies of truthiness can kill.

IMHO many socio-politico-religious tracts can be filed under Humor, Fiction, or Mental Illness as they transcend lies.
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Old 02-24-2020, 02:31 AM
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A subject that has fascinated philosophers and religious nuts for millennia, if not longer

1) a lie is any untruthful statement, regardless
2) a lie is a statement that the speaker SHOULD know is untrue
3) a lie is a statement that the utterer intends to use to deceive

Should have been a survey dude!

I'll leave out the examples, but:

A) In some theologies, what you do is of more importance than how you get there.
B) In some other theologies, how you get there is more important what the result is.
C) And in some other theologies, where you were aiming is more important, than what path you took or where you ended up.

Christianity as practiced is a mixture of those three, but generally places more emphasis on the aim than some other religious do.

Returning to the original question, missing is

4) A lie is something that has the result of misinformation, regardless of if it was true or intended to deceive. (My type A lie).

And #2 is an unusual formulation, making a sin out of "should have known", which, if it is a sin, is still not the sin called lying, unless it also happens to be factually incorrect, and you are using definition (A)

Having got that out of the way, when I listen to politicians talking, I often hear your "type 2" lie. Politicians lying by suggesting and allowing people to believe that they know what they are talking about, when they don't. The lie is the bit where they pretend that their talking point has some objective reality.
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Old 02-24-2020, 02:48 AM
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If intent to deceive is necessary, then what about the saying "You made a liar out of me!" when one finds out they have been fed bad information?
It's a saying and not literally true. What the speaker means is that, since they spread falsehoods, they will be presumed to have been lying when people find out the falsehoods are untrue. They will be branded a liar, even though they factually aren't one.

(Obviously my interpretation and how I square that saying with the fact that people generally do not consider a false statement a lie if the person really believed it.)

Last edited by BigT; 02-24-2020 at 02:51 AM.
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Old 02-24-2020, 02:57 AM
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Namor? Namor isn’t in the Justice League. Just what are you trying to pull, Buster?
Sorry. I meant Ulmo.
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Old 02-24-2020, 03:00 AM
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I also don't think "should know that it's untrue" is really part of the definition of lying. It's more just a way to tell if someone is lying when you can't be 100% sure.

There is a way to lie by avoiding knowing, though. It's when you deliberately avoid knowing something you should know so that you can "honestly" claim you didn't know. But inherent in that scheme is the deliberate intent to deceive. The misleading part is that you know people will expect you to know. If you deliberately try to be misleading, then you are lying.

But that doesn't mean that you are lying, if you unintentionally didn't know something everyone believe you should have known. It's just that it may be much harder to prove, since the default will be that you knew. And, frankly, it may not be all that important to determine if you lied or were negligent. It may be a distinction without a difference.
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Old 02-24-2020, 04:17 AM
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I agree that no one would brand a novelist a liar; it was a technical point. We must distinguish lying from merely "uttering a false statement" without regard to context, otherwise the result is absurd (I would be a liar for trying to explain certain syllogisms, for example). So I take my comment back. Note that Kant, Aristotle, et al. proposed that one cannot ethically lie, so that should give some hint of what it means.
Don't be so sure that no one would brand a novelist a liar. When I was young and still being forced to attend Church of God in Christ services, I heard a sermon from a COGIC pastor who said that Christmas pageants were sinful because the children playing Joseph & Mary were lying by doing so.
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Old 02-24-2020, 04:24 AM
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IMO, people who try to flatten the definition of lying so that it includes: deliberate, malicious deceit, 'white lies', folklore, fiction, jokes and banter, are just idiots. That kind of all-or-nothing thinking is simply poisonous to any kind of reasonable discussion.
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Old 02-24-2020, 05:21 AM
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Lying is deliberate expressing something you know to be untrue for the purposes of deception.
  • Avoiding the truth is not lying.
  • Fiction for entertainment is not lying.
  • Perpetuating a myth is not lying, though that's a grey area.
  • Unknowingly relating something that turns out to be untrue is not lying.
And of course there are degrees of severity. Sometimes we lie to avoid trouble. Sometimes we lie to cause trouble.
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Old 02-24-2020, 05:29 AM
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A lie is a false statement that the speaker intends for the audience to understand as truthful in some way. There must be an intent to deceive, and usually an attempt to derive benefit from that deception.
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Old 02-24-2020, 06:06 AM
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A lie is a false statement that the speaker intends for the audience to understand as truthful in some way. There must be an intent to deceive, and usually an attempt to derive benefit from that deception.
Hijacking my own thread:

Are you actually doing what you mentioned in your signature? If I may ask, why? I realize there are languages in which the pronouns do not differentiate by gender and that communication is certainly possible in such a matrix, but I don't see how replacing our current pronouns as you suggest would accomplish much. Can you explain?

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Note that Kant, Aristotle, et al. proposed that one cannot ethically lie, so that should give some hint of what it means.
Don't mention vet feckless pennywhistle Kant to me again. I gaslighted the Dúnedain into getting themselves exterminated by Eru, and I'll do it again.
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Old 02-24-2020, 06:14 AM
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Hijacking my own thread:

Are you actually doing what you mentioned in your signature? If I may ask, why? I realize there are languages in which the pronouns do not differentiate by gender and that communication is certainly possible in such a matrix, but I don't see how replacing our current pronouns as you suggest would accomplish much. Can you explain?
I explain in this thread —
https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=878125

and yes I am doing it. I use the pronouns E, em, es, and emself in posts here and in other places.

I’m not the only one in the world who is doing something similar
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Old 02-24-2020, 06:25 AM
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Steve is an idiot. Humorous tales are not lies if everyone knows they are not true.
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Old 02-24-2020, 08:50 AM
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Steve is an idiot. Humorous tales are not lies if everyone knows they are not true.
No, he's an asshole. Completely different thing. A simple idiot would refrain from telling whimsical anecdotes himself but not fret about what others do. An asshole would try to force his opinion on others.

Steve and I have had this silly discussion before. The first time, I pointed out that Jesus used parables throughout the Synoptics, and so anyone who believes Jesus was sinless cannot therefore also hold that lies are sinful and that non-truthful statements in parable or fabulous form are lies. He remained intransigent, insisting that every word Jesus is recorded as uttering must be by definition literally true, even things like the parable of the sheep and the goats on Judgment Day. That discussion was one of the reasons I resolved to avoid further one-on-one conversations with him (though the straw that broke the camels back was his insistence that Jesus & Company all wrote & spoke English, since that is what the king James version of the Bible is recorded in and only that is the inspired word of God.)
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Old 02-24-2020, 08:52 AM
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Steve is an idiot. Humorous tales are not lies if everyone knows they are not true.
The Steve story as presented in the OP is so bizarre that it can't be the whole story. IT's like he's a Thermian from "Galaxy Quest." I think he just hates Skald.

The thing is that no human being I am aware of would ever apply that definition of lying consistently. EVERYONE likes at least some movies, plays, TV or stories, and no one watches "Star Wars" and thinks it's a live feed.
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Old 02-24-2020, 09:02 AM
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The thing is that no human being I am aware of would ever apply that definition of lying consistently. EVERYONE likes at least some movies, plays, TV or stories, and no one watches "Star Wars" and thinks it's a live feed.
No, there are actual people who are like that. People exist in the world--perhaps not many, but they exist--who won't read or watch any work of fiction because it's a lie according to their religion. The only thing that is true is the Bible.
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Old 02-24-2020, 09:13 AM
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Don't be so sure that no one would brand a novelist a liar. When I was young and still being forced to attend Church of God in Christ services, I heard a sermon from a COGIC pastor who said that Christmas pageants were sinful because the children playing Joseph & Mary were lying by doing so.
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No, there are actual people who are like that. People exist in the world--perhaps not many, but they exist--who won't read or watch any work of fiction because it's a lie according to their religion. The only thing that is true is the Bible.
Agreed: I've encountered people—only rarely and usually only by reputation—who believed that any sort of fiction was lying.

I guess they assumed that Jesus's parables were accounts of things that actually happened.

For the record, I agree with Skald and everyone else that, if the person you're talking to knows that what you're saying is not true, and you know they know, you're not lying to them. At least not in any sense of the word "lying" that makes it immoral, unethical, or sinful.
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Old 02-24-2020, 09:31 AM
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To look at it from the other end: if any not-literally-true statement is a lie, then the word lie loses a lot of its current meaning, and becomes less useful. So, we could make it mean that, but it would be a pointless exercise. Therefore we’re all better off if it doesn’t mean that.
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Old 02-24-2020, 09:35 AM
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It is no more a lie than when a novelist writes a story.
.
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I agree that no one would brand a novelist a liar
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Story telling is not lying.
At least one novelist disagrees with you: Ursula Kroeber LeGuin.

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/191...an-atheist-but

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I am an artist too, and therefore a liar. Distrust everything I say. I am telling the truth. The only truth I can understand or express is, logically defined, a lie. Psychologically defined, a symbol. Aesthetically defined, a metaphor.
http://theliterarylink.com/leguinintro.html

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Fiction writers, at least in their braver moments, do desire the truth: to know it, speak it, serve it. But they go about it in a peculiar and devious way, which consists in inventing persons, places, and events which never did and never will exist or occur, and telling about these fictions in detail and at length and with a great deal of emotion, and then when they are done writing down this pack of lies, they say, There! That’s the truth!

Of course, LeGuin's not saying people shouldn't write novels. And I'm sure she wouldn't have said nobody should tell tall tales to their sick relatives to make them laugh.

It seems to me that part of what's going on here is a common misunderstanding of how people use language. To the question of which of these is the correct definition (quote from the OP):

Quote:
is a lie any untruthful statement, regardless of the knowledge and/or intention of the utterer? Is, rather, a lie only a statement that the speaker SHOULD know is untrue, whether or not they actually do, and whether or not they intend to deceive? Or is a lie a statement that the utterer intends to use to deceive, regardless of its truth or falsity?
i'd say that those are all correct definitions; which is meant, like the meaning of 'organic' or of 'dog', depends on the context. The problem it seems to me that "Steve" is having is twofold: one, he's insisting on using definition 1 in all contexts; two, he's insisting that all lies, in the sense of definition 1, are wrong -- he'd probably say 'sinful'.
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Old 02-24-2020, 09:41 AM
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I sometimes teach a magic club to kids, and early on I tell them that a good magician is lying to the audience. They're shocked, and then I explain that magic is weird that way. You're saying false things that you know are false in an attempt to get people to believe something false.

But it's okay, and arguably not lying, because they know what you're doing in general. A lot of the fun of magic comes from the implicit competition between the magician and the audience. While they don't know exactly what your lie is, they know that you're lying (either with words or with actions). And an honest magician is going to lie, but will tell the truth about lying. They don't actually try to convince the audience that they have supernatural powers, any more than the Shakespearean actor genuinely wants the audience to believe she's fallen dead on stage.

That's the most gray-area kind of lying I can think of; and as long as there's some level where the audience knows the truth (even if only in the most general, meta terms), it's not really lying.
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Old 02-24-2020, 09:50 AM
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Lying is speaking (what you believe to be) falsehood.
Yes, I'm on this side adding with the intent to deceive. But what about if the "falsehood," by some happy accident or weird turn of events, ends up or turns out to be true? I suppose it's not a lie by the court of law, but it would still strike me ethically as a lie as you were deliberately relaying what you thought to be (or was at the time) a falsehood with the intent to deceive.

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Old 02-24-2020, 09:50 AM
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I would say that a lie is a statement which the speaker believes to be untrue, spoken for the purpose of deception (where "speaking" of course includes other forms of language as well). Your stories were not lies, as they were not spoken for the purpose of deception. A true statement spoken for the purpose of deception is also not a lie, though for different reasons. And any sort of statement can be made for ethical or unethical reasons, though of course it's easier to find examples of unethical deception.
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Old 02-24-2020, 10:05 AM
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Yes, I'm on this side adding with the intent to deceive. But what about if the "falsehood," by some happy accident or weird turn of events, ends up or turns out to be true? I suppose it's not a lie by the court of law, but it would still strike me ethically as a lie as you were deliberately relaying what you thought to be (or was at the time) a falsehood with the intent to deceive.
I have an actual example of that. Back in my 20s, when I was working as a retail commission electronics sales person, I had a coworker I despised. He eventually got fired. I changed Store's (but not companies) and one day saw him in my new store. At that time, There was a thief making the rounds of stores in our city opening up registers via no sales and grabbing cash. Mostly to be a jerk, I intimated to my new store's security department that my hated ex coworker might be that person. To my surprise, he turned out to be guilty. So my spiteful report, uttered only from an immature desire to cause him trouble,was the truth. but I had enough integrity to recognize that it was a lie, and I declined the financial reward offered by store management for catching the thief. Taking that money felt like stealing.
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Old 02-24-2020, 10:24 AM
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At least one novelist disagrees with you: Ursula Kroeber LeGuin.
Make it two: mystery writer Lawrence Block's book about writing is called Telling Lies for Fun and Profit. (That's an Amazon link, but I'm not necessarily encouraging you to buy it; just pointing out that it exists).

I tend to agree that intent to deceive is the major factor in what we usually consider a lie, and a tall tale narrated for amusement, which both teller and listener know is not true, doesn't qualify.

The broader position, that any statement known to be false is a lie, no matter the intent, may be technically correct, but I don't find that to be a useful definition. Contrary to what Futurama may tell you, "technically correct" is NOT, in fact, the best kind of correct. But Skald and Acsenry are right that there are a few people who seem to hold to that, and will not read or watch fiction for that reason. There are also people who hold that it would be morally unacceptable to lie to the Gestapo about the Jews you're hiding in your basement.

I also agree that it is possible to tell the absolute truth, but do so in a way that is still intended to deceive the listener. This is usually done by omitting important details. My mother always called these "lies of omission," and she made it perfectly clear that they still counted as lies!

Last edited by MrAtoz; 02-24-2020 at 10:26 AM.
  #34  
Old 02-24-2020, 10:42 AM
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I pointed out that Jesus used parables throughout the Synoptics, and so anyone who believes Jesus was sinless cannot therefore also hold that lies are sinful and that non-truthful statements in parable or fabulous form are lies. He remained intransigent, insisting that every word Jesus is recorded as uttering must be by definition literally true, even things like the parable of the sheep and the goats on Judgment Day.
I'm confused. An analogy is by definition not a true/false thing, it's not even a statement of truth, it's an analogy. If I said, "For Amazon to acquire this new company in a merger is akin to a football team already leading by several touchdowns trying to rub in the score with five more touchdowns yet," that's not even a true/false statement - that's an analogy.

How are parables by Jesus, such as sheep and goats, even about truth/falsehood? He obviously is not literally saying that there are literal shaggy-wooled sheep and goats standing in front of God.
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Old 02-24-2020, 10:46 AM
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This is usually done by omitting important details. My mother always called these "lies of omission," and she made it perfectly clear that they still counted as lies!
It wasn't just your mom. A "lie of omission," or, more usually IME, "lying by omission" is a standard type of lie.
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Old 02-24-2020, 10:47 AM
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I'm confused. An analogy is by definition not a true/false thing, it's not even a statement of truth, it's an analogy. If I said, "For Amazon to acquire this new company in a merger is akin to a football team already leading by several touchdowns trying to rub in the score with five more touchdowns yet," that's not even a true/false statement - that's an analogy.

How are parables by Jesus, such as sheep and goats, even about truth/falsehood? He obviously is not literally saying that there are literal shaggy-wooled sheep and goats standing in front of God.
I probably miss identified the parable. I am referring to the account in Matthew where Jesus explains what will happen to people on judgment day being based on how they treated the needy and unfortunate during their lives.
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Old 02-24-2020, 10:49 AM
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I am referring to the account in Matthew where Jesus explains what will happen to people on judgment day being based on how they treated the needy and unfortunate during their lives.
No, that's the correct parable - the sheep and the goats is a reference to people being judged based off of how they took care of other people in need.

What I don't understand is why you would consider that parable to be a false/untrue statement by Jesus.
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Old 02-24-2020, 10:54 AM
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It wasn't just your mom. A "lie of omission," or, more usually IME, "lying by omission" is a standard type of lie.
Yeah, but my mom totally invented the idea!

(This may be a statement made for the sake of amusement, which is not 100% in accord with the truth).
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Old 02-24-2020, 10:55 AM
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I recall coming across a Roman Catholic list of kinds of untrue statements that would not be considered lies and thus not require repentance. One of these was the jocose lie, which is not expected to be accepted as true by anyone present place.
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Old 02-24-2020, 11:27 AM
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No, that's the correct parable - the sheep and the goats is a reference to people being judged based off of how they took care of other people in need.

What I don't understand is why you would consider that parable to be a false/untrue statement by Jesus.
Here's the parable (NIV version):

Quote:
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
The bolded parts are clearly metaphors, particular the first bolded section, but a metaphor is, by some definitions used in this thread, a lie. Jesus isn't literally going to put sheep on His right and goats on His left, so that's a "false" statement.

Similarly, His statements about folks helping Him or not helping Him aren't literally true - He's not saying that everyone you see in need is secretly Him in disguise testing you. (Although, I think there are at least some Christians that take that part as literally true, but that goes down a theological rabbit hole).
  #41  
Old 02-24-2020, 12:04 PM
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This sentence is false.
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Old 02-24-2020, 01:00 PM
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Lying is something neurotypicals do too much of, and care too little about.
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Old 02-24-2020, 01:31 PM
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Lying is something neurotypicals do too much of, and care too little about.
That is far from a definition. You could change "lying" to "eating chocolate", but I assume you are not equating lying with overindulgence in Hershey's kisses.Care to try again?
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  #44  
Old 02-24-2020, 04:55 PM
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Steve is an idiot. Humorous tales are not lies if everyone knows they are not true.
Right. That's why we call them jokes, yarns, tall tales, fairy tales, fables, sea stories, etc. to differentiate them from outright lies.

In the Navy we used to say that the difference between a fairy tale and a 'sea story' was that the former starts with "Once upon a time. . ." and a sea story starts with "Now, this is no shit. . ."

Last edited by Chefguy; 02-24-2020 at 04:57 PM.
  #45  
Old 02-24-2020, 06:35 PM
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That is far from a definition. You could change "lying" to "eating chocolate", but I assume you are not equating lying with overindulgence in Hershey's kisses.Care to try again?
But I eat too much chocolate and I'm not neurotypical. I don't understand your argument. Eating chocolate and lying aren't related.
  #46  
Old 02-24-2020, 07:35 PM
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But I eat too much chocolate and I'm not neurotypical. I don't understand your argument. Eating chocolate and lying aren't related.
I am not sure whether to take you seriously.

Your earlier post does not make any real attempt to define lying. All it does is make a moral judgment of "Nuro typical" people. Can you define lying in a non-judge mental fashion ?
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Old 02-24-2020, 08:25 PM
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Okay, it's when people are deliberately deceptive towards others.

Or it's what I do in bed.

Last edited by EmilyG; 02-24-2020 at 08:25 PM.
  #48  
Old 02-24-2020, 08:39 PM
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Okay, it's when people are deliberately deceptive towards others.

Or it's what I do in bed.
I'm not a dentist, and yet I find myself pulling teeth.

Did you read the OP? Would you agree with Steve's assertion that my tall tales to our cousin Hannah, intended to boost her morale, were lies?
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  #49  
Old 02-25-2020, 12:58 AM
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A woman I know redefines "lying" to serve her purposes. She claims that she has never lied in her entire life, and she's not about to start now: "Lying is not even in my consciousness." Yet when I point out obvious lies she's told, she'll defend them by saying, "That's not lying. It's smart!" (As though those two things are mutually exclusive).

Last edited by Newtosite; 02-25-2020 at 12:58 AM.
  #50  
Old 02-25-2020, 01:52 AM
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Okay, it's when people are deliberately deceptive towards others.

Or it's what I do in bed.
I’m in favor of what people on the autism spectrum bring to the broader neurological table. Animal husbandry and humanity would be significantly poorer if Temple Grandin were never born.

But there’s an edge to what you’ve written that I can’t quite distinguish from sincere and valid criticism. In other words, I also can’t tell if you’re serious. If you’re sincere, I’d like to engage and maybe help move the conversation forward. If you’re not, I’m a little horrified by your apparent exploitation of those on that spectrum for shits and giggles. (This seems unlikely to me).

What’s the scoop?


P.S. If you happen to be on the autism spectrum and missed this, Skald’s reference to “pulling teeth” means to say that he shouldn’t have to work so hard to prompt you to state a coherent case for your argument. If you have one, I’d be interested in hearing it too.
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