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Old 02-16-2013, 09:44 PM
Lakai Lakai is offline
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How much should we control sexual expression in teenage girls?

It starts with this article in The Atlantic: A Dress-Code Enforcer's Struggle for the Soul of the Middle-School Girl. It's written by a teacher complaining about how teenage girls show too much skin/underwear.

More interesting than the article is the response it got on Reddit. Here's the top comment. It's pretty long, but here's a small sample:

Quote:
Expecting to have a right not see someone elses underwear, or their nude body, is the height of narcissistic insanity. Expecting to be allowed to inflict this limitation on someone else because you've got psychological problems that cause you to react negatively to human bodies is nearly criminal. It's destructive. You can whine and cry that you "respect" the people all you want, but true respect expresses itself SOLELY as restraining your own compulsion to control someone. If you do not keep your hands off of them and you seek to influence their actions, you absolutely do not respect them in any way as a human being. You are seeking to violate the most basic right that people actually DO have - the right to control their own actions - which is the height of disrespect and is usually punished in most civilized cultures with imprisonment.
I think this commenter went a little overboard in his criticism. As I posted in that topic, I think it's nice to say you're in favor of "sexual expression," but the reality is that no one is going to be comfortable with seeing a twelve-year-old girl's underwear. And I can't blame a school official for trying to enforce this reality.

Additionally, since this type of dress code will be enforced when these girls go to work, someone should be teaching them what is appropriate to wear and what's not. Otherwise, if they don't learn from their parents, they'll learn after they get fired, or after they don't get hired for dressing too inappropriately for an interview, or they'll never learn at all because no one is going to bother telling an adult how she should dress.

I know that historically men have gone overboard with controlling sexual expression, but we should still have some limits right? As long as there will be real social consequences for inappropriate sexual expression, shouldn't we teach young girls what's appropriate and what's not.

Or is there a valid reason for going against what society says is appropriate? Should schools or parents start teaching girls something different about expressing their sexuality?
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Old 02-16-2013, 11:31 PM
Duckster Duckster is offline
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I wonder if you might stir up some meaningful discussion if posters acknowledged if they were/were not a parent of a teenage daughter or two.
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Old 02-16-2013, 11:41 PM
Ibn Warraq Ibn Warraq is offline
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How come no one ever wonders about or suggests controlling the "sexual expression of teenage boys"?
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Old 02-16-2013, 11:53 PM
Caveat lector Caveat lector is offline
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Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq View Post
How come no one ever wonders about or suggests controlling the "sexual expression of teenage boys"?
I'll say that at least in my role in school I do try. However due to the nature of the culture it tends to be more "You can't say that to her" or "You may not touch her without her permission" than "You can't wear that to school." In fact I tend to take boy's sexual misbehavior much more seriously than girl's outfits. I've only once had to ask the principal to step in for a girl, but I've gotten boys expelled.

I teach middle school age children. One key thing I find is that they want to have complete freedom over their actions, but often do a very poor job of foreseeing possible negative consequences and are even worse at dealing with them when they occur. I'm not talking about sexuality here, but merely things like horseplay and homework. We need to help young adults learn what is appropriate for the circumstances in every respect and that goes for boys and girls alike. If they need help selecting proper dress for school then yes that should be part of it and that too goes for males and females.

Last edited by Caveat lector; 02-16-2013 at 11:53 PM.
  #5  
Old 02-16-2013, 11:58 PM
Condescending Robot Condescending Robot is offline
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Reddit is typically eye-rolling here....a site built around lonely adult males posting borderline child pornography of teenage girls has a poster who mysteriously supports teenage girls wearing fewer clothes, with the amazing and un-contradicted claim that in "most civilized cultures" people disagreeing with this would go to prison.
  #6  
Old 02-17-2013, 01:03 AM
ZPG Zealot ZPG Zealot is offline
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Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq View Post
How come no one ever wonders about or suggests controlling the "sexual expression of teenage boys"?
It has been my experience that teenage boys are far less likely to wear revealing or sexually suggestive clothes as a means of sexual expression. That said, some teenage boys do choose to wear tough guy or ego-fulfillment clothing suggesting their affiliation with the gangster subculture, and there is a lot of suggestion out there that should be controlled. I would consider the gangster look for boys and the tramp look for girls to be roughly analogous controversies over teen clothing. My solution, both genders should be taught that even though it is may be wrong to judge a book by it's cover, plenty of people subconsciously or consciously do, and they should be aware of how their image will effect how they are treated.
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Old 02-17-2013, 03:11 AM
Condescending Robot Condescending Robot is offline
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Indeed, that's always been an insipid expression. Of course you should judge a book by its cover. Publishers go to great lengths to design covers that communicate exactly what type of book it is. That's the only thing the cover is even there for.

The analogy for people who choose to present themselves to the world a certain way is not lost.
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Old 02-17-2013, 10:59 AM
Simple Linctus Simple Linctus is offline
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Originally Posted by Condescending Robot View Post
Reddit is typically eye-rolling here....a site built around lonely adult males posting borderline child pornography of teenage girls
What the flying fuck are you talking about? That's about as ridiculous as me claiming Wikipedia is built about lonely adult males writing child pornograpy.
  #9  
Old 02-17-2013, 11:05 AM
solosam solosam is offline
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This is what our world has come to: Establishing standards for decency and public behavior is considered a criminal act.

I'd rather live in a world where people are expected to improve themselves to meet the standard, than a world that permits anarchy and depravity under the veil of "Freedom" and "self expression." That's where we're heading, if we haven't already arrived.
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Old 02-17-2013, 11:08 AM
Procrustus Procrustus is offline
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Originally Posted by solosam View Post
This is what our world has come to: Establishing standards for decency and public behavior is considered a criminal act.

I'd rather live in a world where people are expected to improve themselves to meet the standard, than a world that permits anarchy and depravity under the veil of "Freedom" and "self expression." That's where we're heading, if we haven't already arrived.
I'm not a fan if ether extreme, but I'd camp out closer to freedom and depravity tnan to standards and decency.
  #11  
Old 02-17-2013, 11:27 AM
Lakai Lakai is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solosam View Post
This is what our world has come to: Establishing standards for decency and public behavior is considered a criminal act.

I'd rather live in a world where people are expected to improve themselves to meet the standard, than a world that permits anarchy and depravity under the veil of "Freedom" and "self expression." That's where we're heading, if we haven't already arrived.
This is a false dichotomy. Surely we have more options besides either "standards of decency" or "anarchy and depravity?"
  #12  
Old 02-17-2013, 11:34 AM
Mijin Mijin is offline
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There's no absolute standard for any of this stuff. There was a time where just showing one's ankles or just being able to see the rough outline of a woman's legs was considered vulgar. Surprisingly, relaxing such standards has not turned men into wild animals (any more than they were already).

Frankly, in my own case, I wouldn't care if everyone walked around naked. So I can't bring myself to care about short skirts or thin leggings.

As for the article in the OP:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessica Lahey
One day they can't pay attention in class because they're thinking about ponies and their pet guinea pigs, and the next they're incapacitated by daydreams about the opposite sex.
Has she considered that her lessons might just be boring as fuck?
  #13  
Old 02-17-2013, 11:42 AM
Mijin Mijin is offline
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I see I wandered slightly off-topic and went too broad.
I of course agree that schools should have dress codes. I would expect young people to try to break such rules. Big whoop.
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Old 02-17-2013, 11:50 AM
Yorikke Yorikke is offline
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Originally Posted by Condescending Robot View Post
Reddit is typically eye-rolling here....a site built around lonely adult males posting borderline child pornography of teenage girls has a poster who mysteriously supports teenage girls wearing fewer clothes, with the amazing and un-contradicted claim that in "most civilized cultures" people disagreeing with this would go to prison.
Are you fucking high? Maybe go to reddit.com one time before telling us what it's "built around."
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Old 02-17-2013, 01:04 PM
Condescending Robot Condescending Robot is offline
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Oh yeah, in addition to all of the "creepshots" and the "men's rights" skin-crawlers there are also "rage comics" and all the other shit that appeals to intellectually stunted losers. Reddit is for dudes who smell like yesterday's Cheetos consoling each other over how all the "vapid cunts" don't like "nice guys" and your defensive reaction to this being pointed out (in a thread about a Reddit armchair philosopher trying to prove how teenage girls should dress) isn't doing any favors for my opinion of that place.
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Old 02-17-2013, 01:17 PM
Yorikke Yorikke is offline
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Originally Posted by Condescending Robot View Post
Oh yeah, in addition to all of the "creepshots" and the "men's rights" skin-crawlers there are also "rage comics" and all the other shit that appeals to intellectually stunted losers. Reddit is for dudes who smell like yesterday's Cheetos consoling each other over how all the "vapid cunts" don't like "nice guys"
Think you're thinking of 4chan/b/, dude. Seriously, you don't know what you're blathering about.

Quote:
and your defensive reaction to this being pointed out (in a thread about a Reddit armchair philosopher trying to prove how teenage girls should dress) isn't doing any favors for my opinion of that place.
I don't care.

Last edited by Yorikke; 02-17-2013 at 01:20 PM.
  #17  
Old 02-17-2013, 01:19 PM
Tristan Tristan is offline
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Basing ones opinion of Reddit off of a few well publicized less-than-savory subreddits would be like basing ones opinion of the SDMB off of the BBQ pit alone.
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Old 02-17-2013, 01:53 PM
Rachellelogram Rachellelogram is offline
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Basing ones opinion of Reddit off of a few well publicized less-than-savory subreddits would be like basing ones opinion of the SDMB off of the BBQ pit alone.
Not really a good analogy. Even the Pit has rules (both written and unspoken), because it's a sub-forum of the SDMB. And, with very few exceptions, nobody spends their entire day posting here. Every board on the internet has a "flavor" associated with it. Reddit's flavor is like stale cheetos, mountain dew that lost its fizz after the can sat out overnight, with an undercurrent of dirty socks and loneliness.

Moreover, there is social pressure associated with all SDMB sub-forums. Unlike on Reddit, socks are prohibited here and content is actively moderated. On Reddit, vast numbers of (mostly anonymous) pedophiles have united in amoral echo chambers at the drop of a hat--on far more than one occasion. It's very likely that many of those pedos maintained a minimum of 2 online identities: one for Reddit proper, and at least one sock account for the dark side of Reddit. How could you possibly begin to determine how many "normal" Redditors don't participate? You couldn't. So the entire membership is tainted with that possibility.

While there's nothing about the Reddit software that encouraged this to happen, there was no mechanism in place to prevent it, either. Being a more lawless, user-driven community than any other message board on the internet has its disadvantages. One of those is poor PR.
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Old 02-17-2013, 02:11 PM
Simple Linctus Simple Linctus is offline
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Reddit's flavour, in so much as it has one at all, depends upon the subreddits you frequent. If it seems to be full of paedophillic Cheeto fans then you are in the wrong subreddits.

As for the reddit described by condescending robot, it is so far from reality (I can at least understand where rachellelogram is coming from) I find it implausible he or she has ever even looked at the site.
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Old 02-17-2013, 02:25 PM
Peremensoe Peremensoe is offline
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Originally Posted by Lakai View Post
I think this commenter went a little overboard in his criticism. As I posted in that topic, I think it's nice to say you're in favor of "sexual expression," but the reality is that no one is going to be comfortable with seeing a twelve-year-old girl's underwear. And I can't blame a school official for trying to enforce this reality.
In fact that comment equates visible underwear with nudity, and apparently for all ages in all contexts.

Quote:
Expecting to have a right not see someone elses underwear, or their nude body, is the height of narcissistic insanity.
Obviously this comment can only come from someone who has minimal participation in human society, and perhaps also a loose grip on sanity. Not worth more than a in response.
  #21  
Old 02-17-2013, 05:23 PM
dropzone dropzone is offline
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Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq View Post
How come no one ever wonders about or suggests controlling the "sexual expression of teenage boys"?
I did when I was 14. One method is to not require them to stand up when they are called on in class or leave immediately when the bell rings. Sexual expression comes (cums?) easily in teenaged boys.

Years later a friend tried to set me up with a girl who had sat next to me in Algebra and might still remember the time I had to unzip and shove it back into my drawers when it tried to escape. Maybe she had fond memories of my sexual expression, but I didn't think so because at no time in high school had she treated me me with more grace than she would a bad smell.
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Old 02-17-2013, 05:51 PM
Yorikke Yorikke is offline
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Originally Posted by dropzone View Post
Years later a friend tried to set me up with a girl who had sat next to me in Algebra and might still remember the time I had to unzip and shove it back into my drawers when it tried to escape.
What the everloving fuck are you talking about?

Last edited by Yorikke; 02-17-2013 at 05:52 PM.
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Old 02-17-2013, 05:56 PM
Ibn Warraq Ibn Warraq is offline
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Originally Posted by dropzone View Post
I did when I was 14. One method is to not require them to stand up when they are called on in class or leave immediately when the bell rings. Sexual expression comes (cums?) easily in teenaged boys.

Years later a friend tried to set me up with a girl who had sat next to me in Algebra and might still remember the time I had to unzip and shove it back into my drawers when it tried to escape. Maybe she had fond memories of my sexual expression, but I didn't think so because at no time in high school had she treated me me with more grace than she would a bad smell.

I'm not sure how the second instance is comparable to people getting hot and bothered by girls wearing short skirts.

Girls often like looking at shirtless hot guys or hot guys in suits, but most don't really like looking at our junk.
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Old 02-17-2013, 06:35 PM
dropzone dropzone is offline
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What the everloving fuck are you talking about?
I'll tell you a little story that you should remember when you reach puberty : When you are older and your other head realizes it now has sooper-secrit powers all its own it will seek every opportunity to show off or even escape, even if it embarrasses your main head. This often happens two minutes before class ends, which precludes you from using your normal method of showing it who is boss, and can be physically painful if you are wearing briefs, so you need to sneakily unzip and push it back where it belongs.

Oh, wait! You aren't Anonymous User and should know about this by now!

Last edited by dropzone; 02-17-2013 at 06:37 PM.
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Old 02-17-2013, 07:28 PM
colander colander is offline
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I'll tell you a little story that you should remember when you reach puberty : When you are older and your other head realizes it now has sooper-secrit powers all its own it will seek every opportunity to show off or even escape, even if it embarrasses your main head. This often happens two minutes before class ends, which precludes you from using your normal method of showing it who is boss, and can be physically painful if you are wearing briefs, so you need to sneakily unzip and push it back where it belongs.

Oh, wait! You aren't Anonymous User and should know about this by now!
We don't get what your story about your dick had to do with the subject of this thread.
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Old 02-17-2013, 07:51 PM
dropzone dropzone is offline
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We don't get what your story about your dick had to do with the subject of this thread.
I was responding to:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq View Post
How come no one ever wonders about or suggests controlling the "sexual expression of teenage boys"?
and added an illustrative anecdote that has EVERYTHING to do with young girls in short skirts. Or did you go to high school before or after when skirts that stopped mid-thigh or higher were the norm?
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Old 02-17-2013, 07:59 PM
colander colander is offline
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Originally Posted by dropzone View Post
I was responding to: and added an illustrative anecdote that has EVERYTHING to do with young girls in short skirts. Or did you go to high school before or after when skirts that stopped mid-thigh or higher were the norm?
Uh, is there any answer to that question that will not result in more anecdotes re: your dong? Because if there is, I pick that one.
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Old 02-17-2013, 08:02 PM
R3d Anonymous R3d Anonymous is offline
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Oh, wait! You aren't Anonymous User and should know about this by now!
And how is this relevant to me?
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Old 02-17-2013, 08:04 PM
Yorikke Yorikke is offline
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Originally Posted by dropzone View Post
I was responding to [Ibn Warraq's post] and added an illustrative anecdote that has EVERYTHING to do with young girls in short skirts. Or did you go to high school before or after when skirts that stopped mid-thigh or higher were the norm?
Why did you quote me, then? Just not good with quotes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dropzone View Post
This often happens two minutes before class ends, which precludes you from using your normal method of showing it who is boss, and can be physically painful if you are wearing briefs, so you need to sneakily unzip and push it back where it belongs.
No, not ever, and certainly not in front of a chick in Algebra class. Christ.

Oh, wait - you must have a huge penis.

Last edited by Yorikke; 02-17-2013 at 08:08 PM.
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Old 02-17-2013, 08:41 PM
dropzone dropzone is offline
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Originally Posted by hrhomer View Post
Why did you quote me, then? Just not good with quotes?
I didn't quote you originally, only after you misunderstood what I was responding to.
Quote:
No, not ever, and certainly not in front of a chick in Algebra class.
Well, you may have been impotent, and I'm sorry to say that. But accidents happen when you are an adolescent; I mean, there's a comedy meme based on it. I was extremely careful because I was an even bigger prig back then. I'm positive she saw nothing and simply didn't like me, though I have trouble understanding that.
Quote:
Oh, wait - you must have a huge penis.
No, just one that was more expressive 45 years ago. You'll be happy to hear it's less unruly now.

Last edited by dropzone; 02-17-2013 at 08:45 PM.
  #31  
Old 02-17-2013, 08:56 PM
colander colander is offline
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I didn't quote you originally, only after you misunderstood what I was responding to. Well, you may have been impotent, and I'm sorry to say that. But accidents happen when you are an adolescent; I mean, there's a comedy meme based on it. I was extremely careful because I was an even bigger prig back then. I'm positive she saw nothing and simply didn't like me, though I have trouble understanding that. No, just one that was more expressive 45 years ago. You'll be happy to hear it's less unruly now.
you could have worn boxers instead dude
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Old 02-17-2013, 09:08 PM
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If you are over the age of 6 or so, and not mentally disabled, there is no excuse for unzipping your pants and fiddling with your dick in public. Period.

In an emergency, go to the bathroom. That's what it's for. Anything else is unfathomably disgusting, and borders on sexual harassment. Frankly, messing with your erect penis while leering at your seatmate is over that line, in my opinion.

As for the OP, if the teacher in the article wants to value girls beyond their hemlines, she should do just that, and quit with the concern trolling and JAQing off. Almost all of the girls will outgrow that sort of behavior. Obviously dress codes should be enforced, but leave the slut shaming out of it. The teacher is as much a cause of the attitude she hates as anyone. Change starts at home.
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Old 02-17-2013, 09:27 PM
Ibn Warraq Ibn Warraq is offline
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To build on what Miss Elizabeth said, I don't see how a girl deciding to wear a short skirt to school is remotely comparable to a guy deciding to pull his dick out in the middle of class and start massaging it.

I also doubt that even the most endowed of male porn stars are so large that they're forced to do so.
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Old 02-17-2013, 09:37 PM
dropzone dropzone is offline
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Originally Posted by miss elizabeth View Post
If you are over the age of 6 or so, and not mentally disabled, there is no excuse for unzipping your pants and fiddling with your dick in public. Period.

In an emergency, go to the bathroom. That's what it's for. Anything else is unfathomably disgusting, and borders on sexual harassment.
Standing would have made my situation much more obvious and embarrassing. But I know women never adjust their underwear, ever.
Quote:
Frankly, messing with your erect penis while leering at your seatmate is over that line, in my opinion.
Did I say that I was "messing" with it, much less "leering?" No, I said I was trying to NOT expose myself to anybody, and she was the closest person who might have seen me with my hands in my lap and nothing more, but since I was a shy and easily-mortified kid I assumed the worst.

Jesus, kids. I've been here for 13 years. Have I ever made any of you think I'm a sexual pervert? Please try to NOT imagine the worst out of me, at least not seriously. I mean, I will feed you a straight line now and then, but that's just because I have a self-deprecating sense of humor.
  #35  
Old 02-17-2013, 09:40 PM
dropzone dropzone is offline
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Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq View Post
To build on what Miss Elizabeth said, I don't see how a girl deciding to wear a short skirt to school is remotely comparable to a guy deciding to pull his dick out in the middle of class and start massaging it.

I also doubt that even the most endowed of male porn stars are so large that they're forced to do so.
See? SEE? THIS is how it's played! You take it over the top and bring it home with a gag said with a straight face.


ETA: Um, you were intending to be funny, right? Because you did it well.

Last edited by dropzone; 02-17-2013 at 09:42 PM.
  #36  
Old 02-17-2013, 09:46 PM
miss elizabeth miss elizabeth is offline
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Originally Posted by dropzone View Post
Standing would have made my situation much more obvious and embarrassing. But I know women never adjust their underwear, ever.
Adjusting your underwear is a WHOLE lot different than unzipping your pants and adjusting your dick.

Quote:
Did I say that I was "messing" with it, much less "leering?" No, I said I was trying to NOT expose myself to anybody, and she was the closest person who might have seen me with my hands in my lap and nothing more, but since I was a shy and easily-mortified kid I assumed the worst.

Jesus, kids. I've been here for 13 years. Have I ever made any of you think I'm a sexual pervert? Please try to NOT imagine the worst out of me, at least not seriously. I mean, I will feed you a straight line now and then, but that's just because I have a self-deprecating sense of humor.
Honestly, I don't recognize you as an individual by your name, but I am willing to extend the benefit of the doubt and say that in your effort to relay your story in a humorous manner, it ended up coming out wrong and was misinterpreted as being skeevy. To the extent I contributed, I apologize. Your post rubbed me the wrong way (ha!) and I'm sorry.

Nonetheless, I think unzipping in public is wrong. Sure, you say you were just adjusting to prevent further embarrassment, but that's also what the guy masturbating on the subway will say. Just... no. Go to the bathroom, and buy undergarments that prevent the problem from them on. It's unacceptable for people over kindergarten age to fondle their genitals in public. I don't think this is a particularly controversial stance.

And, again, the teacher sounds like an idiot.
  #37  
Old 02-17-2013, 10:21 PM
dropzone dropzone is offline
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Originally Posted by miss elizabeth View Post
Adjusting your underwear is a WHOLE lot different than unzipping your pants and adjusting your dick.
In my defense, guys' junk is a lot more external than women's, and men's underwear is designed to easily get it out and put it back. My penis found a chink in the armor and, along with how my pubes were being pulled, it hurt like a motherfuck. I can see your point about skeeviness, but I was young and naive and didn't know some guys did that, though I'd seen the jokes about guys in trenchcoats and pantslegs that only went up to their knees, but I thought they were just in it for the exposure and didn't do anything else.
Quote:
To the extent I contributed, I apologize. Your post rubbed me the wrong way (ha!) and I'm sorry.
Thank you. And I'm glad you found an opportunity to make a joke.
  #38  
Old 02-17-2013, 11:14 PM
tomndebb tomndebb is offline
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Now that we have gotten all the early teen humor out of the way, everyone needs to take this thread in a better direction.

Knock it off.

[ /Moderating ]
  #39  
Old 02-17-2013, 11:17 PM
Ambivalid Ambivalid is offline
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everyone needs to take this thread in a better direction.
Yes, a slow, downward wilt seems appropriate.
  #40  
Old 02-17-2013, 11:49 PM
tomndebb tomndebb is offline
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Ambivalid: stop it.

[ /Moderating ]
  #41  
Old 02-18-2013, 12:16 AM
Ambivalid Ambivalid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomndebb View Post
Ambivalid: stop it.

[ /Moderating ]
Sorry. I honestly intended it as harmless humor but I'm sorry.
  #42  
Old 02-18-2013, 12:38 AM
BrainGlutton BrainGlutton is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakai View Post
How much should we control sexual expression in teenage girls?
Depends on whether you're filming hardcore or softcore.
  #43  
Old 02-18-2013, 06:52 AM
Tee Tee is offline
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Directed to the Reddit comment: Few middle-schoolers are afforded the right to fully control their own actions, and it has nothing to do with respecting them or not.

To the OP: the guidelines of middle-school clothing are more rigid due to peer influence than anything administrators could come up with. The articles of clothing are mass-marketed. The hairstyles are uniform. They think in terms of individuality, but only within the accepted parameters [I want a tattoo to express my individuality; everyone else is doing it!] At the last school dance, the girls' hemlines look identical, and short...and this was in January, so they were all bare-legged and coatless as well in the freezing temperatures. And yet they know enough that the school enforcing a dress code is "stifling expression."

To dropzone: your story seems to expose both the routine pubescent awkwardness of the age group, and the unwillingness of the rest of the world to deal with the "s" word as it pertains to 12-year-olds, which I think (speaking as the mother of teen girls) illustrates society's problem pretty well. I was expecting something different: a poster might mention that the local 7th graders are showing a lot of skin lately, and another would come along and say what are you doing checking out 7th graders, ya perv. So, I do not have high hopes for this particular discussion topic, but I've been tempted a few times to start one myself.
  #44  
Old 02-18-2013, 09:33 AM
Lakai Lakai is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tee View Post
So, I do not have high hopes for this particular discussion topic, but I've been tempted a few times to start one myself.
No high hopes? How can you say that after we had around twenty posts concerning dropzone's penis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq View Post
How come no one ever wonders about or suggests controlling the "sexual expression of teenage boys"?
I think this is far more important than controlling what girls wear in class. Unfortunately, some people believe that controlling what girls wear will also control how boys will behave. The author of the article in the OP makes this argument as well. I don't think this is the case at all. There might be good social reasons for controlling what girls wear, but preventing sexual harassment is not a good reason.

But lets hypothetically say that we do control sexual harassment in teenage boys, and now teenage girls can wear what they want without being harassed. Do we still control what they wear to school? I would still say yes because what you wear has real world consequences, and someone should be teaching kids about those consequences.
  #45  
Old 02-18-2013, 12:17 PM
JRDelirious JRDelirious is offline
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Going back to the OP, my reaction was, well, we do not HAVE to make it about being a matter of "sexual expression"; and there's no problem with rules fairly applied.

We DO control and restrict the range of action and expression of minors. Because they're minors. Not just "sexual expression". Until they pass a certain age we don't let them drive, vote, drop out of school (and in school their lockers are fair game for searching) and yeah, going into the other subject, we even have such thing as an "age of consent". Online communities have minimum age requirements to post. Society and the law do NOT recognize to minors the "unfettered right to control their own actions".


Why should it not be a matter of a dress code just because the school environment should have a certain degree of order and structure, period, and that includes making rules against wearing clothing with rude slogans or gang symbols, requiring shoes to be worn, and also BOTH boys not wearing their pants so low that you can tell what underwear they have on or if they have any AND girls not wearing their hemlines so high that the same happens; as well as a code of conduct that includes "No damaging property", "No bullying", "No smoking behind the bleachers" and also "Nobody will make lewd remarks or advances to classmates of whatever gender nor make disparaging remarks or spread rumors about anyone else's gender, orientation or reputation".


Yes, in the practice, it DOES happen that the sociocultural double standard results in that the criteria for enforcing dress and conduct codes in school and workplace tends to dumb down to "Girls: don't be or look too slutty; Boys: don't be or look too thuggish". That's a problem that that the people in charge have to work on solving but it does not void the very notion of teaching the young ones that there's a certain deportment expected when interacting with society.

Last edited by JRDelirious; 02-18-2013 at 12:18 PM.
  #46  
Old 02-18-2013, 08:45 PM
dropzone dropzone is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tee View Post
To dropzone: your story seems to expose both the routine pubescent awkwardness of the age group, and the unwillingness of the rest of the world to deal with the "s" word as it pertains to 12-year-olds, which I think (speaking as the mother of teen girls) illustrates society's problem pretty well. I was expecting something different: a poster might mention that the local 7th graders are showing a lot of skin lately, and another would come along and say what are you doing checking out 7th graders, ya perv. So, I do not have high hopes for this particular discussion topic, but I've been tempted a few times to start one myself.
That would be an interesting thread, though I now know not to participate , even though I have three daughters who were once teens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakai View Post
No high hopes? How can you say that after we had around twenty posts concerning dropzone's penis?
Oh, come on! It wasn't NEAR that many! (counting) Sweet Zombie Jesus! I am heartily sorry I brought it up and apologize to everybody.
  #47  
Old 02-19-2013, 08:07 AM
coffeecat coffeecat is offline
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Going from school appropriate (don't wear a Spencer Gifts "Fuck You" shirt) to work appropriate (shirt & tie) is a huge leap, but one even the socially clueless (e.g., me) manage without too much problem, with or without school dress codes.
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