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Old 05-21-2019, 09:35 PM
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Personal attacks v. Personal attacks


I am referring to this thread regarding abortion where HurricaneDitka was given a warning for personal attacks.

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...&postcount=518

Fine, he singled out another poster by name. However, several posters in the thread identified as being pro-life, yet many posts were made to the effect of how pro-lifers do not really mean what they say lest they would be bombing more abortion clinics. Or another post, in a thread with people who voted for Trump, saying that "MAGAbots" were just like Nazis and outside the realm of debate and civil discourse should no longer apply.

I understand that the rule is "attack the post, not the poster" and that people not on the board can be personally attacked, but this, IMHO elevates form over substance.

Is it just rules lawyering? I can say as many nasty things I want about a belief system which the poster before me just stated he belonged to? The only thing is to not name the poster? If instead of naming the poster, HurricaneDitka substituted the word "liberals" for the poster's name, would everything have been okay?
  #2  
Old 05-21-2019, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
I am referring to this thread regarding abortion where HurricaneDitka was given a warning for personal attacks.
No he wasn't. The warning clearly says it was for accusing another poster of lying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bone View Post
This is a warning for accusing another poster of lying. Asserting someone asserts a position they do not hold (pretend) in order to deceive (inconvenient to the argument) fits the criteria. Don't personalize arguments in this fashion.

[/moderating]
  #3  
Old 05-22-2019, 01:08 AM
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I was wondering about this warning too. A few posts above the warning is this post:

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Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
I love how the go-to example for how "the government forces us to give up our rights" is something that hasn't been relevant for about twice the length of my life and almost certainly never will be again.

Honestly I don't know why people engage with pro-life arguments as though they're made in good faith. By and large? They aren't. The pro-life side lies. Constantly, remorselessly, and with a smile on their face. They lie about what they care about. They lie about what they believe. They lie about the effects their policies will have. They went to court to ensure they could keep lying to people about what kind of health care facility they're entering.

There's this desperate liberal belief to act as though any given confrontation can be handled with honest debate on the merits. With all due respect, we need to cut that shit out, because it has never been true and fascists will abuse that instinct until the cows come home. The way to win this argument is to treat pro-lifers the way the catholic church treats an 11-year-old who gets raped. Shun, deplatform, ignore. Don't take their shit seriously. Don't treat it like it's meant as a serious argument. It isn't.
The reference in the first line to "the go-to example for how "the government forces us to give up our rights" is something that hasn't been relevant for about twice the length of my life and almost certainly never will be again" is clearly a reference to my posts. He goes on to question why people "engage with pro-life arguments" and then uses some variation of "lie" five times. What gives? The paper-thin veneer of "they" is enough of an impersonalization that it's not considered an accusation of lying?
  #4  
Old 05-22-2019, 05:28 AM
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I didn't accuse you of lying. I think the movement as a whole is built on lies from top to bottom, but I have no idea whether you're one of those true believers who take it all in, or whether you're just stirring the pot. I mean, the comparison to the draft was so painfully bad as to not be worth addressing, and is exactly the kind of thing one might expect a movement with nothing to go on but lies to hold on to, but for all I know, you're saying that because you honestly believe it, and you know what? Good on you for sticking to your principles.

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 05-22-2019 at 05:29 AM.
  #5  
Old 05-22-2019, 05:37 AM
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(For anyone who finds that questionable, imagine I'm talking to Kellyanne Conway about the Trump administration and she's making an argument that Trump had the biggest election turnout ever or something similarly inane. Or that I'm talking to a YEC and they're bringing up moon dust.)
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Old 05-22-2019, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
I didn't accuse you of lying. I think the movement as a whole is built on lies from top to bottom, but I have no idea whether you're one of those true believers who take it all in, or whether you're just stirring the pot. I mean, the comparison to the draft was so painfully bad as to not be worth addressing, and is exactly the kind of thing one might expect a movement with nothing to go on but lies to hold on to, but for all I know, you're saying that because you honestly believe it, and you know what? Good on you for sticking to your principles.
This is the same sort of nonsense sideways-slaps that have gotten others in trouble, BPC.

"All X are terrible garbage people! Oh? YOU'RE an X? Who knew?"

You should really try to rein that in or it could get you in real trouble.
  #7  
Old 05-22-2019, 10:44 AM
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There was just a Mod note on that post. I don't understand. If I have a post that says "Republicans lie all the time about everything", will that similarly be noted as "close to calling Republican board members liars"?
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Old 05-22-2019, 10:48 AM
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It appears that the frustration of some Dopers that
  • Trump is still President, and
  • HurricaneDitka won't post in the Pit
is spilling over into other forums.

Regards,
Shodan
  #9  
Old 05-22-2019, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
There was just a Mod note on that post. I don't understand. If I have a post that says "Republicans lie all the time about everything", will that similarly be noted as "close to calling Republican board members liars"?
I've written about this previously here (added the "not" in the quote):
Group insults do not lend themselves to bright line rules. In discussions all across the Great Debates and Elections there are disparaging comments towards groups that it is clear from past posting history that some of our posters are members of. Insults towards Republicans, Democrats, and libertarians abound and while I personally am not a fan of sweeping generalizations, it's not something that I'd prefer to moderate.

It is when the attack on a group is inseparable from an attack on a poster where a person can run afoul of the rules. This would be context dependent. I gave an example in post #3 where a group insult would be inseparable from a personal insult towards another poster.

On the other hand, we often have posts along the lines of 'Democrats are thieves because they want to tax all our money away!', or 'Republicans are racists who hate the poor!'. Both of those are childish and add little to productive discussion, but probably not something I'd moderate for personal insults (withholding judgment for other potential violations). However, depending on the direction of the thread, if it's clear that the intent is to disparage other posters by adding the veneer of the group insult, then that would be moderated. In general I'd avoid sweeping generalizations since they are often false.
  #10  
Old 05-22-2019, 12:13 PM
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Fair enough. I don't necessarily agree, but thanks for explaining the reasoning.
  #11  
Old 05-22-2019, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
It appears that the frustration of some Dopers that
  • Trump is still President, and
  • HurricaneDitka won't post in the Pit
is spilling over into other forums.

Regards,
Shodan
Are you saying that these are the reasons that HurricaneDitka earned a warning?
  #12  
Old 05-22-2019, 02:14 PM
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No, it's the reason that some Dopers start rants outside the Pit, and also why some Dopers are trying to bait HurricaneDitka into getting warnings. Read the HD Pit thread. One Doper is taking credit for setting HD up to get the warning.

Regards,
Shodan
  #13  
Old 05-22-2019, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
No, it's the reason that some Dopers start rants outside the Pit, and also why some Dopers are trying to bait HurricaneDitka into getting warnings. Read the HD Pit thread. One Doper is taking credit for setting HD up to get the warning.

Regards,
Shodan
Stop baiting, Dopers! You better not be baiting... No more baiting! I mean it! Stop that baiting right now!
  #14  
Old 05-22-2019, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
No, it's the reason that some Dopers start rants outside the Pit, and also why some Dopers are trying to bait HurricaneDitka into getting warnings. Read the HD Pit thread. One Doper is taking credit for setting HD up to get the warning.

Regards,
Shodan
I'm a master baiter.

And no, I'm not taking credit. It's a joke. I in no way posted anything in that thread in an attempt to have a poster get a warning.
  #15  
Old 05-22-2019, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
No, it's the reason that some Dopers start rants outside the Pit, and also why some Dopers are trying to bait HurricaneDitka into getting warnings. Read the HD Pit thread. One Doper is taking credit for setting HD up to get the warning.
Except that iiandyiiii said something quite reasonable, not directed at HD at all, and he decided to call iiandyiiii a lying racist troll pretty much out of the blue.

So are you accusing andy of having some X-Men-like level of mind control? If that's the case, excuse me because I need to go cut out enough boxtops to get his brochure on his amazing psy powers, so I can apply them in my everyday life.
  #16  
Old 05-22-2019, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
No, it's the reason that some Dopers start rants outside the Pit, and also why some Dopers are trying to bait HurricaneDitka into getting warnings. Read the HD Pit thread. One Doper is taking credit for setting HD up to get the warning.

Regards,
Shodan
That's frankly ridiculous.
  #17  
Old 05-22-2019, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
No, it's the reason that some Dopers start rants outside the Pit, and also why some Dopers are trying to bait HurricaneDitka into getting warnings. Read the HD Pit thread. One Doper is taking credit for setting HD up to get the warning.

Regards,
Shodan
As manson1972 says, that was quite obviously a joke. And if that was "baiting someone into getting a warning," then many of HurricaneDitka's posts would quality as well.
  #18  
Old 05-22-2019, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
No, it's the reason that some Dopers start rants outside the Pit, and also why some Dopers are trying to bait HurricaneDitka into getting warnings. Read the HD Pit thread. One Doper is taking credit for setting HD up to get the warning.

Regards,
Shodan
When you look at it this way, what choice did HurricaneDitka have?

When you look at it this ridiculous way.
  #19  
Old 05-22-2019, 09:02 PM
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I sometimes feel that HD gets unnecessarily roughed up a little by a left-leaning board, but that was a pretty vile thing to say to iiandiii.
  #20  
Old 05-23-2019, 11:59 AM
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My feeling on the subject is that “baiting someone into getting a warning” is Hurricane Ditka’s personal mission on the SDMB.

I really think that the next time he starts another thread that’s a variant on “Why liberals hate America”, it should be immediately moved to the Pit. Even though he’s too cowardly to post there. Toughen up or don’t play.
  #21  
Old 05-23-2019, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann Hedonia View Post
My feeling on the subject is that “baiting someone into getting a warning” is Hurricane Ditka’s personal mission on the SDMB.

I really think that the next time he starts another thread that’s a variant on “Why liberals hate America”, it should be immediately moved to the Pit. Even though he’s too cowardly to post there. Toughen up or don’t play.
First, this is ATMB, not the Pit. You shouldn't let your personal animosity seep through here.

Second, there is an element of personal responsibility that posters must engage in. Regardless of whether or not there exists provocation, posters must still adhere to the rules of the forum they are posting in.
  #22  
Old 05-24-2019, 06:56 AM
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So Shodan blames the warning on "baiting", all but calls out posters by name, and then refuses to defend his accusations...? I guess he's not standing by them, then.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 05-24-2019 at 06:58 AM.
  #23  
Old 05-24-2019, 07:25 AM
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This is ATMB, not the Pit.

Regards,
Shodan
  #24  
Old 05-24-2019, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
This is ATMB, not the Pit.

Regards,
Shodan
So then I take it your accusations are based on nothing of substance -- just Pit-esque personal attacks? If there was substance to your accusations, presumably you could fashion an ATMB-legal post to back them up.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 05-24-2019 at 07:27 AM.
  #25  
Old 05-24-2019, 08:24 AM
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That's enough, Andy. This isn't the place for anyone's personal feud.

I hope that's clear.
  #26  
Old 05-24-2019, 09:26 AM
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OK, andy expressed some concern about singling him out. I want to be clear that I wasn't there.

It's just that the animosity between our lefty and righty posters can get so heated - and ongoing - that making sure such things don't spill into other fora where such is inappropriate is a potential source of trouble and we like to avoid such.
  #27  
Old 05-24-2019, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance View Post
OK, andy expressed some concern about singling him out. I want to be clear that I wasn't there.

It's just that the animosity between our lefty and righty posters can get so heated - and ongoing - that making sure such things don't spill into other fora where such is inappropriate is a potential source of trouble and we like to avoid such.
Thank you, and fair enough.
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