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Old 06-21-2017, 11:21 AM
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A Watchmen HBO TV Series... [Open spoilers]


...may be happening. Some details here. This could be great if it happens.
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Old 06-21-2017, 12:00 PM
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...may be happening. Some details here. This could be great if it happens.
meh. Watchmen had a interesting idea- see just how dark and gritty you could make Super heroes. Hollywood has already run with this idea. Dark and Gritty is passe.
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Old 06-21-2017, 12:24 PM
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I know I may be insane, but I thought the film adaptation was wonderful. Nearly perfect. I see no major reason to make a show. I'd watch if the reviews were good, though.

I still would prefer that Dune be a Game of Thrones style show instead of another movie attempt. That's the universe I want to see on TV.
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Old 06-21-2017, 01:14 PM
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I know I may be insane, but I thought the film adaptation was wonderful. Nearly perfect. I see no major reason to make a show. I'd watch if the reviews were good, though.
.
I thought it was quite good. But Moore makes a pretense of hating any movie made from his stuff, so of course the fanboys also hate them.
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Old 06-21-2017, 01:47 PM
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I would actually, at this point, rather the show just be set in that world. It doesn't have to follow the plot of the Graphic novel.
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Old 06-21-2017, 01:58 PM
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I would actually, at this point, rather the show just be set in that world. It doesn't have to follow the plot of the Graphic novel.
This is what I would prefer. The movie has been made. Let's see the characters get outside of the "Watchmen" plot. Could be a prequel or a sequel. Along the lines of Gotham, perhaps.
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Old 06-21-2017, 02:01 PM
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This is what I would prefer. The movie has been made. Let's see the characters get outside of the "Watchmen" plot. Could be a prequel or a sequel. Along the lines of Gotham, perhaps.
I would guess this is what they are doing. I'm not sure about a sequel, since some of the characters that would be most marketable would... uh... not so much be around for a sequel. But you've got decades of history that is only vaguely sketched in the original work - everybody's origins, in particular - that would make good serialized TV.
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Old 06-23-2017, 10:50 AM
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This is what I would prefer. The movie has been made. Let's see the characters get outside of the "Watchmen" plot. Could be a prequel or a sequel. Along the lines of Gotham, perhaps.
Do you mean like an adaption of Before the Watchmen?
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Old 06-21-2017, 02:15 PM
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The movie got the surface of the book right. And missed what the book was about.

Moore wrote Watchmen to address one of the central overlooked issues of the superhero genre: the unnaturalness of it. Most superhero stories, comic books and movies, treat being a superhero as if it's just another career choice - some people work in an office and some people dress up in tights and punch criminals. Moore pointed out that regular people don't choose the latter option. You've got to have some pretty severe mental issues if you want to be a superhero. And those mental issues don't disappear when you put on the costume.

But what about the superheroes with powers? They weren't driven to become superheroes by their mental problems. They simply became superheroes because they had superpowers. But then those superpowers would create mental problems. You can't pretend to be a regular guy with a normal family life and a 9-to-5 job when you're actually one of the most powerful beings on Earth. It doesn't matter how sane you were going into that situation, you're going to end up with problems.

Moore set Watchmen in as realistic a world as possible so we could see how poorly superheroes would fit in the real world. He made sure to include lots of non-superhero characters living normal lives so we could see the real world that existed outside of the small circle of superheroes.

The movie missed all that. It treated Watchmen like it was a typical superhero story. It accepted the conventions of the genre rather than questioning them.
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Old 06-21-2017, 02:24 PM
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One point both the book and the movie made is that Superheroes fighting for the status quo can lead to authoritarianism which would make this story very timely I think.
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Old 06-23-2017, 07:30 PM
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The movie got the surface of the book right. And missed what the book was about.
You said the same thing a few months ago, but I don't see it.

Doctor Manhattan is clearly increasingly alienated and disconnected from his humanity. The Comedian is a corrupt nihilist. Rorschach is literally the personification of arbitrary moral relativism. Night Owl is the adrenaline junkie, so numb to the world he can't get it up until he kicks some bad-guys asses (yeah, I think the gratuitous sex scene totally works in the movie).

The characters are all broken anti-heroes.

That theme is so deeply embedded in the story that it exudes from the surface. What's missing?

Can you point to some specific choices that should have been made differently?

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Old 06-21-2017, 06:45 PM
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I thought it was quite good. But Moore makes a pretense of hating any movie made from his stuff, so of course the fanboys also hate them.
No. I read Watchmen and V for Vendetta when they were published. I thought both movies were great and that Moore's being an unshaven old fuddy-duddy.
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Old 06-23-2017, 08:18 AM
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No. I read Watchmen and V for Vendetta when they were published. I thought both movies were great and that Moore's being an unshaven old fuddy-duddy.
If anything, I thought the ending of the movie made more sense than the ending of the book.

I'll give this show a shot for sure, but recognize it could go either way.
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Old 06-25-2017, 02:55 PM
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I know I may be insane, but I thought the film adaptation was wonderful. Nearly perfect. I see no major reason to make a show. I'd watch if the reviews were good, though.
I thought the film was visually perfect, but it was emotionally dead. It somehow lost the heart of the story while trying to remain faithful.

One of the important missteps was making the "heroes" into superhuman fighters. Only Ozymandias should have been more than a humanly competent fighter. The jailbreak scene was particularly egregious showing Owlman and Silk Spectre displaying superhuman abilities.
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Old 06-25-2017, 08:45 PM
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I thought the film was visually perfect, but it was emotionally dead. It somehow lost the heart of the story while trying to remain faithful....
Fair point.
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Old 06-21-2017, 05:31 PM
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What, the late-1980s saturday-morning cartoon wasn't good enough?
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Old 06-21-2017, 06:34 PM
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As an incidental note, there's a passing reference at the end of Chapter 2 (in a segment from Hollis Mason's Under the Hood autobio) that "[w]ithin twelve months of Hooded Justice's dramatic entrance into the public consciousness, there were at least seven other costumed vigilantes on or around America's West Coast." None of these are ever specifically named or otherwise referenced. I could picture a period piece set in late 1940's L.A., showcasing these characters and their interactions - they likely stayed relatively low-key and didn't form a memorable team (albeit a dysfunctional one) like the east-coast Minutemen.
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Old 06-21-2017, 08:01 PM
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As an incidental note, there's a passing reference at the end of Chapter 2 (in a segment from Hollis Mason's Under the Hood autobio) that "[w]ithin twelve months of Hooded Justice's dramatic entrance into the public consciousness, there were at least seven other costumed vigilantes on or around America's West Coast." None of these are ever specifically named or otherwise referenced. I could picture a period piece set in late 1940's L.A., showcasing these characters and their interactions - they likely stayed relatively low-key and didn't form a memorable team (albeit a dysfunctional one) like the east-coast Minutemen.
I, uh, always figured that was simply a mistake: he's just been going on and on about eight costumed adventurers that we get to know -- Hooded Justice and Nite Owl and Mothman and Dollar Bill and Captain Metropolis and the Comedian and the Silk Spectre and the Silhouette -- and, right when it would make perfect sense to sum up with a line about how all of them happened to be operating near each other on the East Coast, the Brit writing about America either slips up or throws in a complete non sequitur.

My money is on "slips up".
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Old 06-21-2017, 08:24 PM
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I, uh, always figured that was simply a mistake: he's just been going on and on about eight costumed adventurers that we get to know -- Hooded Justice and Nite Owl and Mothman and Dollar Bill and Captain Metropolis and the Comedian and the Silk Spectre and the Silhouette -- and, right when it would make perfect sense to sum up with a line about how all of them happened to be operating near each other on the East Coast, the Brit writing about America either slips up or throws in a complete non sequitur.

My money is on "slips up".
Interesting take, and could be correct, though the various editors (including Dick Giordano, Len Wein and Barbara Kesel) would have had to miss it, too.
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Old 06-21-2017, 08:40 PM
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Interesting take, and could be correct, though the various editors (including Dick Giordano, Len Wein and Barbara Kesel) would have had to miss it, too.
Sure, but, again, the way you read that one sentence is possible. It's not like Moore has the guy say that New York is on the West Coast, which an editor could spot all by itself; instead, it's a line that only draws a "hey, wait a minute" in context.
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Old 06-21-2017, 08:02 PM
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I've not read the comic, but the movie did seem to me to illustrate that the "superheroes" all had mental problems, and that nothing they did was normal.
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Old 06-22-2017, 05:06 AM
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I've not read the comic, but the movie did seem to me to illustrate that the "superheroes" all had mental problems, and that nothing they did was normal.
IRL, what mental state would you expect a costumed vigilante to have? Exploring that is the whole purpose - it's Moore's objective, yes?
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Old 06-22-2017, 05:29 AM
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IRL, what mental state would you expect a costumed vigilante to have? Exploring that is the whole purpose - it's Moore's objective, yes?
Ah, shame on me. I misread - your point is that the movie DID have communicate that the costumed vigilante were all off a bit, except maybe Hollis Mason. I dunno - I enjoyed the movie, but went in assuming that a movie form would have to imply all of the deep Mythos-deconstructing pondering that Moore baked in the text.

I have to say, and shame on me here, too, but Moore's disdain of movies, and Zack Snyder's other failures do color my view of the movie. I kinda think "given Snyder's other heavy-handed misses, he can't have handled the complexity and subtlety that is Moore's signature very well, right?" So I am more inclined to assume that my fanboy brain fills in the gaps. Kinda like a less extreme form of Lynch's Dune .

But it really is a solid movie. Now, what that means for a series, not sure. The series shouldn't just be another version of the original though. We don't need to be Spider-Man'd.

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Old 06-22-2017, 11:08 AM
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I have to say, and shame on me here, too, but Moore's disdain of movies, and Zack Snyder's other failures do color my view of the movie. I kinda think "given Snyder's other heavy-handed misses, he can't have handled the complexity and subtlety that is Moore's signature very well, right?"
subtlety that is Moore's? subtlety? He's about a subtle as a wrecking ball.
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Old 06-23-2017, 11:10 AM
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subtlety that is Moore's? subtlety? He's about a subtle as a wrecking ball.
True I guess I am restating complexity there. Some of the emotions his writing and (in Watchmen's case) Dave Gibbons' art evoke are subtle, but no, Moore is direct and specific in what he does.
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Old 06-25-2017, 05:56 PM
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I gathered both the Comedian and Rorschach felt free to operate by their own codes, but the Comedian enjoyed sadism while Rorschach used sadism for specific ends, i.e. breaking a man's fingers for information.
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Old 06-25-2017, 06:15 PM
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I gathered both the Comedian and Rorschach felt free to operate by their own codes, but the Comedian enjoyed sadism while Rorschach used sadism for specific ends, i.e. breaking a man's fingers for information.
Well, look, if we put it that way, then -- are we doing spoilers? -- they all pretty much "felt free to operate by their own codes," didn't they? Dan felt free to break a guy out of prison -- and Laurie shrugged, and felt free to help out -- sure as Adrian felt free to murder people; and that combination of events led to Jon deciding, on his own initiative, to calmly kill someone in cold blood.
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Old 06-25-2017, 06:04 PM
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No. I feel Rorschach does believe in a universal moral code - his moral code. He applies his moral beliefs to other people on a regular basis.



What makes him a nihilist is that he doesn't think some higher power made his moral code. He understands that he created the moral code he lives by.



A moral relativist is somebody who thinks that Christianity and Buddhism and Hinduism and Islam are all equally valid moral codes, even though they contradict each other in some regards. A nihilist is somebody who thinks that Christianity and Buddhism and Hinduism and Islam are all equally wrong because all religions are made up.


That is emphatically NOT what nihilism is. And the definition of moral relativism is off too.

A nihilist believes that nothing matters so there's no reason to care about morality or ethics.

A moral relativist believes that morality can only be judged from your own point of view—someone else can't judge what's moral for you.

You can believe that all religions are equal and not be a moral relativist.
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Old 06-25-2017, 08:34 PM
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A Watchmen HBO TV Series...


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No, not at all. It's not an issue of whether the moral code is made up; it's an issue of who made it up. For example, I know I'm real. So if I decide that murder is wrong then I know who made that decision. I'm not going to question the belief because it's my belief.



Now consider a person who believes murder is wrong because God says murder is wrong. Suppose you then lose your belief that God exists. Do you also lose your belief that murder is wrong? If God never existed then he couldn't have said that murder was wrong.



That's the basis of nihilism. It says you should decide for yourself what is moral and what is immoral. You shouldn't think something is wrong just because you were told that God thinks it's wrong or your parents told you it's wrong or the government tells you it's wrong.



Granted, this is the positive spin on nihilism. In reality, a lot of people abuse nihilism and use it as an excuse to abandon any moral code and just do whatever they want to do. And other people condemn nihilism because of this.


Nihilism is not based on any connection between god and morality and a loss of such a connection due to a loss of belief in god. That's just atheism and dealing with its consequences.

Nihilism might or might not result from a loss of belief, but it's something very specific. It's saying that preserving human human life—or some other value underlying all moral systems, including atheistic ones—has no intrinsic value.

Heath Ledger's Joker is a nihilist. He is willing to do any horrible thing to anyone because he believes human existence is just a joke, it has no value. He has make people suffer just to make a point, just to entertain himself. Their well being, their lives are without intrinsic value. That's nihilism.
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Old 06-26-2017, 04:03 PM
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There are two minor changes I'd make to the film:

1. Speed up the scene where the Comedian shoots his pregnant former girlfriend - there's a wholly unnecessary pause while he points his gun at her before he fires.

2. Trim down the love scene between Dan and Laurie in the Owlship. It went on waaaay too long and in my theatre, the audience was starting to chuckle.
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Old 07-22-2019, 12:19 PM
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Bumped.

A new trailer is out. Check out the revised 51-star American flag at 1:02, and President Robert Redford on the classroom poster at 1:19: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yKq1PRvPJQ

Jeremy Irons is playing an older Adrian Veidt, it seems....
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Old 07-22-2019, 12:48 PM
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That trailer gave me a headache just trying to follow along.
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Old 07-23-2019, 01:19 PM
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That trailer gave me a headache just trying to follow along.

That obnoxious sound overlay. ecch, when it on, I have to mute or FF, so I have only heard it once. HBO- making your previews obnoxious is not a way to gain viewers.
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Old 07-23-2019, 04:21 AM
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The trailer looks...interesting. Clearly this is a "years later" sort of Watchmen. Could be good, could be "Doomsday Clock" awful.
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Old 07-23-2019, 08:33 AM
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I love Regina King so I am down for it. Even though I am not at all looped in about what Watchmen are all about.

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Old 07-23-2019, 02:24 PM
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I love Regina King so I am down for it...Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk
+1

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Old 07-23-2019, 10:35 AM
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That trailer looks awesome and I'm all in for this. I think a big part of what made the Watchmen movie feel "off" was that it was made during the height of the "wire-fu" style action sequences, and it always looks ridiculous outside of Japanese martial arts movies.
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Old 07-26-2019, 09:37 AM
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Robert Redford will play... President Robert Redford: https://comicbook.com/dc/2019/07/26/...hbos-watchmen/

The series will be set in 1992. Will they digitally de-age him, as they did for Michael Douglas in Ant-Man and Samuel Jackson in Captain Marvel?
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Old 09-18-2019, 02:47 PM
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Bumped.

A new trailer is out, and the show will premiere Oct. 20: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-33JCGEGzwU
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:39 PM
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Robert Redford will play... President Robert Redford: https://comicbook.com/dc/2019/07/26/...hbos-watchmen/

The series will be set in 1992. Will they digitally de-age him, as they did for Michael Douglas in Ant-Man and Samuel Jackson in Captain Marvel?
It's set in now-ish, he's just been President for 27 years because apparently the 22nd Amendment has been removed.

Also:
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The choice of Redford -- his run for the Presidency was hinted at in a single panel of Watchmen #12 -- has always been a little bit ironic in that context, since one of Redford's career-definining roles was playing Bob Woodward in All the President's Men.
Yeah, I've seen you control big parts of the government, you're not fooling anyone, Robert. HAIL HYDRA.
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Old 10-04-2019, 07:34 PM
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I saw a significant chunk of the first episode today at comicon. It has a very different feel from the movie or book (and I loved the book and rather liked the movie, actually), but I think it has potential as a show as long as you let the source material go. But, the fanboys are going to hate it.

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Robert Redford will play... President Robert Redford: https://comicbook.com/dc/2019/07/26/...hbos-watchmen/

The series will be set in 1992. Will they digitally de-age him, as they did for Michael Douglas in Ant-Man and Samuel Jackson in Captain Marvel?
It's set in current day.
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Old 10-04-2019, 11:18 PM
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...It's set in current day.
The next-to-last paragraph of that article says it's set in 1992.
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Old 10-05-2019, 05:27 AM
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The next-to-last paragraph of that article says it's set in 1992.
The article is incorrect.
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Old 10-04-2019, 09:22 PM
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Oh, one other thing, they clearly extended it from the squid ending, not the movie ending.
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Old 10-07-2019, 04:27 AM
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The book suggests that the reason Moore chose Robert Redford was in order to make jokes about an old Hollywood actor with the initials RR becoming president.
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Old 10-07-2019, 08:09 AM
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The show makes clear that Redford has taken advantage of the lack of term limits put in place by Nixon in the universe. We didn't see him in the episode they showed, but multiple references to him. Even the small Jeremy Irons scene they showed was very odd and I'm not sure what they're doing with that character. The episode was more centered around Regina King's character, who appears to be the real star of the show.
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Old 10-07-2019, 01:54 PM
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Even the small Jeremy Irons scene they showed was very odd and I'm not sure what they're doing with that character.
Jeremy Irons may be Ozymandias. Note him riding horseback past a skull and crossbones flag. It could be a callback to Tales of the Black Freighter pirate illustrated book from the comics, whose story was a parallel to Ozymandias. Also, Jeremy's attire is very aristrocratic, much like Veidt wore.

As for what they're doing with him, the Calvary (the people in Rorschach masks) may be working to expose the deception Ozymandias perpetrated in the movie.

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Old 10-07-2019, 08:19 AM
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ivism and nihilism for the minute, what I want to know is, what does Moore think about his characters? Rorschach is just this side of a Nazi (he reads that extreme right wing rag that openly mocks Jews and others), the Comedian murdered Woodward and Bernstein, and of course Veidt murdered millions of people for "the greater good" with the only person who could stop him deciding to take a powder (Manhattan). The ostensibly "good" superhero is literally and figuratively impotent.

Does the author agree with these characters? The "bad guys" win in the end *, as far as my interpretation goes.



*nothing ever really ends.
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Old 10-07-2019, 08:35 AM
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ivism and nihilism for the minute,
I have no idea where my beginning went. It should read:

Ignoring moral relativism and nihilism for the minute
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Old 10-07-2019, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Just Asking Questions View Post
what I want to know is, what does Moore think about his characters?
Alan Moore is kind of a weirdo who professes odd beliefs. I like a lot of his work, but I've learned to put my own interpretation on it rather than look to explanations from him.
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