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Old 01-31-2010, 10:52 PM
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Paradise Lost 3 Documentary (West Memphis 3)


Paradise Lost 3 is in post-production (for Spring 2010 release, per directors Joe Berlinger and Bruce Sinofsky, who also directed the first two Paradise Lost documentaries). For those unfamiliar with the West Memphis 3 case, hereís wm3.org and Wikipedia, as well as three prior threads discussing the case.

After seeing the first two documentaries and reading about the case, I'm convinced that the WM3 did not receive fair trials in 1994. Iím looking forward to seeing the new documentary for an update on the status of the appeals, which are of course procedurally complicated and technical. Apparently the defense is presenting multiple new arguments, including DNA evidence that implicates Terry Hobbs, the stepfather of one of the victims, as well as evidence that injuries to the victimsí bodies were caused by animal bites rather than knife wounds. Time for Truth 1 and 2. (Itís unclear to me what the status is regarding prior theories that Mark Byers, stepfather of a second victim, might have been involved in the murders, or that there were human bite marks present on the victimsí bodies).
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Old 02-01-2010, 08:50 AM
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Thanks for the update!
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Old 02-01-2010, 11:46 AM
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Thanks for the update!
Agreed. I've been following this forever and am glad to hear there's some sort of update.
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Old 02-01-2010, 01:00 PM
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I will be very curious to see if Mark Byers agreed to appear in Paradise Lost 3. In some ways it's hard to imagine that he could resist the spotlight, but I also wonder if he had any regrets about appearing in the second film after seeing it. I was surprised that Judge Burnett agreed to be interviewed for the second film, too (although cameras were excluded from the courtroom itself). I wonder if he volunteered to participate again.
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Old 02-01-2010, 10:44 PM
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Just in case anyone is interested, 48 Hours (CBS) will be doing an episode on the West Memphis 3. From what I've heard, the episode will be 2 hours long and will air on February 28th, however, I would check your tv guide etc. just in case I have the date wrong.

Last edited by valleyofthedolls; 02-01-2010 at 10:44 PM.
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Old 02-02-2010, 02:26 PM
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I will be very curious to see if Mark Byers agreed to appear in Paradise Lost 3. In some ways it's hard to imagine that he could resist the spotlight, but I also wonder if he had any regrets about appearing in the second film after seeing it. I was surprised that Judge Burnett agreed to be interviewed for the second film, too (although cameras were excluded from the courtroom itself). I wonder if he volunteered to participate again.
He's now an advocate for their release and has an upcoming memoir to promote, so there's little doubt he'll be in it.

There's been a ton of new developments in recent years, most notably witnesses recanting, family members of the victims changign sides, and DNA evidence at the crime scene. I'm not convinced of their innocence but I'm absolutely convinced that I could not have voted guilty in their trial, and if I had to go one way or the other I'd go with innocent.
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Old 02-02-2010, 02:59 PM
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He's now an advocate for their release and has an upcoming memoir to promote, so there's little doubt he'll be in it.
Interesting. I guess I have mixed feelings about that. What an enigmatic character.

Quote:
There's been a ton of new developments in recent years, most notably witnesses recanting, family members of the victims changign sides, and DNA evidence at the crime scene. I'm not convinced of their innocence but I'm absolutely convinced that I could not have voted guilty in their trial, and if I had to go one way or the other I'd go with innocent.
I could not have voted guilty, either. Looking forward to all of the updates.
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Old 02-11-2010, 02:07 AM
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Sorry to bump this thread but I wanted to correct some information in my previous post.

The 48 Hours show on this case is supposed to air on February 27th (Saturday).

http://wm3.vox.com/
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Old 02-11-2010, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by valleyofthedolls View Post
Sorry to bump this thread but I wanted to correct some information in my previous post.

The 48 Hours show on this case is supposed to air on February 27th (Saturday).

http://wm3.vox.com/
Thanks. I'll be watching it (providing I have power in the expected snowfall). For such a high profile case this case is amazingly low profile, if that makes sense.
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Old 02-24-2010, 08:40 PM
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Bumping this as a reminder for the 48 Hours show on Saturday at 10 PM EST (which will feature Johnny Depp.)

http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/48hours/main3410.shtml

Last edited by Pray for peace; 02-24-2010 at 08:40 PM.
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Old 02-24-2010, 09:28 PM
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which will feature Johnny Depp.)
Any idea why?

I like Depp as an actor, but stuff like this drives me nuts. Why waste screen time on him when you can talk to people actually involved with the case? And if you just want a celebrity, Henry Rollins has been involved with the case longer than any celeb and even Depp-ex Winona Ryder has several years of involvement on Depp.

Last edited by Sampiro; 02-24-2010 at 09:32 PM.
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Old 02-24-2010, 09:35 PM
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Any idea why?
He's an advocate for their cause.

I've followed this case for years. Those kids were quite obviously railroaded. Even reading or talking about the case still pisses me off.
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Old 02-24-2010, 09:36 PM
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Any idea why?

I like Depp as an actor, but stuff like this drives me nuts. Why waste screen time on him when you can talk to people actually involved with the case? And if you just want a celebrity, Henry Rollins has been involved with the case longer than any celeb and even Depp-ex Winona Ryder has several years of involvement on Depp.
Depp's a bigger name. If his name draws more attention and eyeballs to the program, then he's a reasonable choice.
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Old 02-24-2010, 09:54 PM
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I've kept up with the case since I saw the first documentary and I've read the books and the court documents. This was definitely railroading.

Even if they really are as guilty as hell (and I don't believe they are) I honestly can't see how anybody anywhere could have voted to convict based on the 'evidence' at the trial. Just give them another trial already that doesn't involve the same frigging mongoloid judge as the first one and preferably doesn't involve "experts" like "Dr." Dale Griffis*. You would think that the people of West Memphis would want the case reopened more than anybody since if these kids (well, now they're in their 30s, but they were kids then) are guilty the world needs to know and some apologies and lawsuits are in order, and if they're innocent it means a child murderer got away.

I also blame Geraldo Rivera for a part of this case for that insane whackjob bullshit "investigative special report" he did on Satanic murders in the late 1980s. People honestly believed that Satanic cults were abducting and murdering kids left right and center in every town in spite of a complete lack of physical evidence. I'm not stereotyping when I say this but speaking as somebody who grew up in the very rural south: hicks eat shit like that up; I'd be surprised if there were more than two jurors who hadn't 'heard' about the satanic murders going on everywhere (and so well covered up by satanic officials that there were no bodies or reports of any kind).


(For those not familiar with the case, Dr. Griffis was the "author of more than 50 books on the occult" and an expert on satanic crimes; his 50 books were all, literally ALL, self published- some of them on photocopiers- and his Ph.D. came from an unaccredited mail order school.)

Last edited by Sampiro; 02-24-2010 at 09:56 PM.
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Old 02-24-2010, 10:03 PM
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I also blame Geraldo Rivera for a part of this case for that insane whackjob bullshit "investigative special report" he did on Satanic murders in the late 1980s. People honestly believed that Satanic cults were abducting and murdering kids left right and center in every town in spite of a complete lack of physical evidence. I'm not stereotyping when I say this but speaking as somebody who grew up in the very rural south: hicks eat shit like that up; I'd be surprised if there were more than two jurors who hadn't 'heard' about the satanic murders going on everywhere (and so well covered up by satanic officials that there were no bodies or reports of any kind).
Just in case you're interested, Geraldo Rivera did a show on this case in 1994. You can read a transcript here:

http://www.callahan.8k.com/wm3/geraldo.html

Maury Povich, Geraldo Rivera's partner in sleaze, also did a show. It covers the same ground as Rivera's show unfortunately the transcript isn't available on line.
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Old 02-25-2010, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by valleyofthedolls View Post
Just in case you're interested, Geraldo Rivera did a show on this case in 1994. You can read a transcript here:

http://www.callahan.8k.com/wm3/geraldo.html

Maury Povich, Geraldo Rivera's partner in sleaze, also did a show. It covers the same ground as Rivera's show unfortunately the transcript isn't available on line.
Holy crap. I had no idea of that. I love this jewel:

Quote:
RIVERA: Let me introduce our experts because I want to broaden this beyond West Memphis, to talk more about this whole, very controversial issue of Satanic cults and devil worship. Whenever this is mentioned in polite society, people like to bury their head under the pillow and--and refuse to believe that it exists. And very often, reporters, like Paul Morrison, get an awful lot of heat for staying with these stories. I know when we did our devil worship special, how very controversial that was. But we still stand by that one as well as what you're hearing today.
And this was aired between Misskelley's trial and the Echols/Baldwin trial, and you know that everybody in the jury pool probably saw that episode.

A legal question: when two people are accused of working together to commit the same crime (ala Damian Echols and Jason Baldwin), do they have the right to be tried separately or is it up to the courts to decide whether to try them together or separately? If they have the right to an individual trial, wouldn't it seem more advantageous if you were the defense attorney to request a separate trial? I was thinking particularly of Jason Baldwin- Echols was known as a 'problem child' and all around weirdo with a history of mental illness while Baldwin was relatively unknown in the town and it would seem that he had a lot more to lose than gain by the association.
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Old 02-25-2010, 02:30 AM
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And this was aired between Misskelley's trial and the Echols/Baldwin trial, and you know that everybody in the jury pool probably saw that episode.
The show actually aired in Jonesboro (where the Echols/Baldwin trial was held) the last week of their trial and on a day when the jurors were not in court because of a daylong continuance. The jurors had been given the usual instructions not to watch/read read anything pertaining to the case but who knows if they listened. They certainly didn't listen to other instructions they were given.

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Originally Posted by Sampiro
A legal question: when two people are accused of working together to commit the same crime (ala Damian Echols and Jason Baldwin), do they have the right to be tried separately or is it up to the courts to decide whether to try them together or separately? If they have the right to an individual trial, wouldn't it seem more advantageous if you were the defense attorney to request a separate trial? I was thinking particularly of Jason Baldwin- Echols was known as a 'problem child' and all around weirdo with a history of mental illness while Baldwin was relatively unknown in the town and it would seem that he had a lot more to lose than gain by the association.
Not a lawyer, but Paul Ford and George Wadley (Jason Baldwin's attorneys) did request a severance and were denied. IIRC, this was an issue brought up on appeal and shot down by the Arkansas Supreme Court in 1996. And Jessie Misskelley had to have a separate trial because of his confession.

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Old 02-25-2010, 10:32 AM
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Both sets of attorneys argued for Echols and Baldwin to be granted separate trials. IIRC the court cited multiple reasons that separate trials were not necessary, including that the defense strategies were not determined to be conflicting (Echols was not arguing "I'm innocent but Baldwin did it," and vice versa). I understand that the state has an interest in having a single trial when possible to save money, especially for a long trial like this one, but in this case I do think it hurt both defendants, although probably Jason more. This is pure amateur speculation but I don't think that the evidence of the knife behind Jason's house or the jailhouse snitch who testified that Jason confessed would have been allowed as evidence in a trial against Damien only, and I don't think that the satanic arguments and Damien's mental health history would have been allowed as evidence in a trial against Jason only.
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Old 02-27-2010, 11:51 PM
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Not a lot of new information in the special but a decent introduction for those new to the case so hopefully it'll get some exposure.

Byers, even though he now supports the innocence of the WM3, strikes me as somebody who would accuse Dolly Parton of the murders if he thought it was convenient. Whether he should be a suspect or not that man has some deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep issues and scares the hell out of me.

I almost felt sorry for Terry Hobbs since they were definitely shining a bright spotlight on him and I doubt the DNA evidence would even be enough to indict.

I hope Judge Burnett ends up one day cleaning toilet bowls with a toothbrush for $3.00 per hour. He's the most arrogant, stupid, zealous SoB in the case.

So, the case remains:

-There was no significant physical evidence that connected them to the victims
-There was no apparent motive that connected them to the murders
-There were no witnesses who put them in the same vicinity other than a retarded boy whose story had many known inaccuracies and who was questioned for many hours without his parent/guardian or a lawyer with him
-Two witnesses have recanted their testimony saying that they were offered 'testify or go to jail'
-The jury foreman admits the jury openly considered a confession they were told to disregard
-The judge made it clear to the jury he assumed they would return a guilty verdict
-A key witness was from a vanity press book authoring charlatan whose credentials were a joke and whose 'knowledge' of occult crimes was often demonstrably wrong
-A bleeding mud covered deranged person who appeared in a local fast food place the night of the murders was uninvestigated at first and then the blood sample was lost
-DNA evidence found nothing that connected the convicted to the bodies but DID connect another person to them
-Forensic experts for the defense and for a neutral investigation found major problems with the forensic analysis used at the trial and in fact actually said it was flat out wrong
-The neighborhood was not canvassed and several family key people connected to the children were not questioned

How in the hell can they NOT grant a new trial in this case? And if the Arkansas Supreme Court should rule not to grant a new case is there any further appeal? And is it normal for the judge at the original trials to hear the petition for appeals for a capital case?
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Old 02-28-2010, 11:08 AM
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How is it legal that Misskelley and Baldwin's appeals keep coming before the same judge who sentenced them in 1994? He's certainly not impartial. Why can't they petition to have him replaced? This all seems outrageous to me.
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Old 02-28-2010, 12:03 PM
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After they exhaust their state appeals, they can appeal in federal court. I wish the 48 Hours special had been 2 hours instead of 1 hour. Also, I wish there had been more of an update on Jason and Jessie.
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Old 02-28-2010, 01:42 PM
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Arkansas law holds that the original trial judge is the person most familiar with the case and therefore the person most suited to understand any procedural errors that may have taken place during the original trial. That said, David Burnett is currently running for state senator and will hear no more appeals. He actually retired last year but came out of retirement/was specially appointed to hear Jesse Misskelley and Jason Baldwin's Rule 37 appeals (which he denied on 1/20/10).

http://arkansasnews.com/2009/12/29/j...etts-blunders/

John Fogleman, one of the prosecutors for the original trials, is running for the ASSC. Hopefully, he'll have to recuse himself if he wins and has to hear any WM3 appeals.

IANAL and IIRC, Damien Echols's next move is to appeal, to the ASSC, Burnett's 2008 decision to refuse him a new trial based on the new dna evidence. Misskelley and Baldwin's next move is to go before the appellate division. At some point, if they don't get relief at the state level, they move to the Federal courts up to and including the USSC. How long this would take, what are the procedures to get there, I'm not sure. Also, Echols's appeals process is different than Baldwin and Misskelley because of his death penalty sentence.

The show was a nice overview. I had heard it was going to be 2 hours long but apparently the powers that be decided to cut it to 1 hour. I don't know if it really matters, though. You could do a year's worth of 48 Hours and you still wouldn't cover everything. I do wish, however, that the allegations of juror misconduct had been covered more thoroughly. There is some information the show left out and IMHO and IANAL, those allegations are the best chance for winning an appeal.
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Old 03-07-2010, 04:49 PM
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Hi everyone we have a discussion forum about this case if you would like to learn more or just discuss it. there is so much information available it is almost impossible to imagine how these three are still in prison and I am so glad that it is discussed in so many places every post on every forum adds to awareness

www.paradiselost3.com
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Old 03-07-2010, 05:01 PM
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He's an advocate for their cause.

I've followed this case for years. Those kids were quite obviously railroaded. Even reading or talking about the case still pisses me off.
Fully agreed. Mark Byers did the crime (probably killed his second wife too). Plain and simple.
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Old 03-07-2010, 05:48 PM
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Fully agreed. Mark Byers did the crime (probably killed his second wife too). Plain and simple.
I always find it extraordinarily ironic that people will say the WM3 are innocent and that they were railroaded because of what they wore, what music they listened to and how they behaved but then they'll turn around and say Byers must be guilty, just look at how he acts and what he says.

I'm not saying he's not a possible suspect nor am I saying he's ever going to be someone I'd like to hang out with but if you'd read all of the available evidence, it's impossible to come to the conclusion he's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and the same goes for Terry Hobbs. Railroading people because of ill-informed opinions is wrong no matter how distasteful the person might be.
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Old 03-07-2010, 06:28 PM
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I always find it extraordinarily ironic that people will say the WM3 are innocent and that they were railroaded because of what they wore, what music they listened to and how they behaved but then they'll turn around and say Byers must be guilty, just look at how he acts and what he says.
Quote:
A review of Paradise Lost 2 (bolding mine]
At one point, during a discussion with two buddies about his troubles since the murders, Byers unexpectedly removes his teeth, claiming to have lost his real choppers in a fight. At first this smacks of smug redneck exploitation on the part of the filmmakers - as if they are building a case through sheer class prejudice. Later we learn the reason for including the scene: an expert brought in by the defense has found what appear to be bite marks in autopsy photographs of the victims. He mentions that the real killer may have since had his teeth removed in an effort to destroy evidence. When the West Memphis Three supporters ... ask Byers if he would be willing to supply comparative bite marks to prove his innocence, he claims that his teeth have fallen out due to a side effect of medication. Still later, the real explanation emerges - Byers has had his teeth removed by an oral surgeon.
That's mighty damn suspicious.
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Old 03-07-2010, 06:30 PM
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He also had the knife with his kid's blood on it. That. all by itself, is more evidence than was ever produced against the WM3.
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Old 03-07-2010, 07:06 PM
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I'm not convinced Byers is the killer. I'm convinced he's crazy as hell and that if the term 'white trash' didn't exist before it surely would have been coined just for an apt description of him but I don't think I could vote to convict or even indict with what's known. I'd be less surprised to learn he had something to do with his wife's death; he even referred to her death (which happened years after the WM3 were convicted when only he and her son and the son's girlfriend were in the house) as a 'murder', and those crocodile tears/breakdown he had at her grave in one of the documentaries make Glenn Beck's breakdowns look like Brando in his prime in terms of sincerity.

One thing I remember reading about his wife's death made me think the Byers are officially "the white trashiest family ever"- as in 'there should be a lavish banquet with Courtney Love and Merle Haggard performing a duet and the mother of Anna Nicole Smith presenting the award' worthy. When his wife died- under mysterious circumstances (the official cause was undetermined but it's believed it was an overdose on illegally obtained Dilaudid to which she'd been addicted since before the murder of her son), when the EMTs arrived they found her older son and his girlfriend naked and making out on the sofa! I've never done it personally but I've nothing really against using sympathy to get sex, but good God- there's a time and a place! "My mama's dead- let's have a quicky before they get her body out of the trailer and my mood improves!" isn't either one.

Devil's Knot goes into Byers pre WM3 history and that in and of itself is amazing. He had a history of violence (bar fights/assault type stuff), grand theft, possessing and selling drugs (usually of the illegally obtained prescription variety), fencing stolen goods when he had a pawn shop, DUIs, being a deadbeat dad (from his previous marriage), and all manner of misdemeanors. Almost any of these things in and of themself you would think would send any of us- at least who isn't a millionaire able to afford great lawyers (which he isn't) or with an immediate family member in high places AND willing to help you out (which he doesn't have) would send you to jail at least briefly in and of itself, and in combination would send you away for years, yet Byers had spent remarkably few nights ever in jail. It's known he was a police informant (he himself has admitted that) which would explain some of the slaps on the wrist but you'd think that even small town justice would eventually get sick of him. I've wondered if he has the dirt on somebody in power- if he sold drugs or something else illegal to a big shot (or a big shot's loved one) or something similarly embarassing if it got out and that he could prove. It would explain a lot.

AFTER the WM3- after the first documentary aired even- he forced two boys to knife fight; characteristically he got into some trouble for it but the charges were dropped. He was convicted in the late 1980s for burglary AND for selling Xanax to an undercover cop and sentenced to 8 years- served 15 months.

Last edited by Sampiro; 03-07-2010 at 07:09 PM.
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Old 03-07-2010, 07:15 PM
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I got this from this web site but it's confirmed from DEVIL'S KNOT (DK) with page numbers, and this isn't ALL he did. Bolding and emphases mine.

Quote:
# 1970s. "I can remember quite vividly the day that I came to from the comatose state I had overdosed in my parents home. . ." PL2, church sermon. "Marijuana, I've tried coke, and some pills. . . just experimented as a teenager going to college." PL2, pre-polygraph interview.
# 1973. Byers threatened parents with butcher knife. Police called in. Threatened to cut the throat of the officer. DK, p. 299.
# 1980s. Ex-wife stated that Byers beat her and her children. Reported to Ron Lax, quoted in DK. p. 205. Melissa Byers father said, Mark Byers "beat Melissa up more than once; he blackened her eye." DK, p. 311.
# September 1987. Conviction for threatening to kill his ex-wife. Three years probation. Wife cited previous death threats. DK, p. 20-21. 149
# 1990. Sued for disappearance of $65000 in jewelry. Not held liable.
# July 1992. Arrested for conspiracy to commit felony cocaine and possession of dangerous weapon, Memphis. No time served. DK, p 46
# December 1992. Investigated for the disappearance of $11000 in gold watches. Byers confessed. No charges brought. DK, p. 22, above note.
# 1994. West Memphis police have 13 outstanding warrants against Byers for bad checks. Reported by KAIT8 News, as shown in PL2. (Twelve outstanding warrants reported in DK) No time served.
# September 1994. Mark and Melissa Byers jailed for stealing $20,000 in antiques. The complainant had her motor home burn down, cause undetermined. Ordered to pay restitution, banished from area.
# September 1994. Contributing to delinquency of a minor. Providing a minor a folded knife to use as a bruising weapon. Byers held a .22 rifle to insist the fight take place. Sentenced to one year in jail. Ordered to pay half of hospital bills, $2000. No time served.
# 1994. Restraining order by Kingsbury's after Mark bruised their child. Kingsbury's stated that the Byers had threatened them. Bullet holes appeared in their trailer, the source undetermined. DK p. 299 and 390.
# 1996+. "I got in a DWI after my wife was murdered." PL2.
# June 1998. Convicted of writing a bad check. One year suspended sentence. DK, p. 305.
# April 1999. Sells Xanax to undercover officer. Five year prison sentence, sentence suspended. DK p. 306. With this judgment, prior probation is revoked and he is sentenced to eight years for the prior crimes of burglary and inciting a fight. He served fifteen months.
How in the hell does this guy stay free unless he's got some serious shit on somebody? And even then- you'd think if it was anything really serious he had that whoever he had the dirt one wouldn't have much moral problem with hiring another prisoner to shank him. Do police usually take this good a care of their informants?
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Old 03-07-2010, 10:28 PM
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That's mighty damn suspicious
Perhaps? But does it make him guilty beyond a shadow of doubt? No. Byers has always said his teeth were removed because they were in terrible shape due to a variety of reasons including his use of Dilantin. Dilantin is an anti-seizure medication and gum disease is one of its side effects.

The teeth controversy is a moot point however. The defense's experts (Dr. Michael Baden, Dr. Janice Ophoven, Dr. Richard Souviron and Dr. Werner Spitz) have all testified that most of the wounds, including what were thought to be human bite marks in PL2, were caused by animal predation (the prosecution obviously disagrees).

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Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic
He also had the knife with his kid's blood on it. That. all by itself, is more evidence than was ever produced against the WM3.
C'mon, you know this isn't really true. Genetic Designs, the outside lab used by the West Memphis for this case, found that the blood on the knife matched the HLA-DQ Apha type of Byers and his step-son (not to mention Michael Moore but for brevity's sake I won't go there or mention the weird statistical anomalies with the results of Genetic Designs's tests).

http://callahan.8k.com/images/geneti...4_attach_1.jpg

Byers has given conflicting statements on how the blood got on the knife but again, I think it's a moot point as the defense experts contend most of the injuries to the boys were caused by animal predation either perimortem or postmortem. Additonally, I know I said, in an earlier post, that the knife was not retested by the defense but I was wrong. The knife was submitted to Bode Laboratories for STR analysis and no additional results were obtained. JMB's knife simply isn't a factor anymore no matter how many times you repeat it.

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Originally Posted by Sampiro
One thing I remember reading about his wife's death made me think the Byers are officially "the white trashiest family ever"- as in 'there should be a lavish banquet with Courtney Love and Merle Haggard performing a duet and the mother of Anna Nicole Smith presenting the award' worthy. When his wife died- under mysterious circumstances (the official cause was undetermined but it's believed it was an overdose on illegally obtained Dilaudid to which she'd been addicted since before the murder of her son), when the EMTs arrived they found her older son and his girlfriend naked and making out on the sofa! I've never done it personally but I've nothing really against using sympathy to get sex, but good God- there's a time and a place! "My mama's dead- let's have a quicky before they get her body out of the trailer and my mood improves!" isn't either one.
This isn't true. Norm Metz, the neighbor Byers called to help him with Melissa Byers, said that when he entered the house, Ryan and his girlfriend were lying naked on a sofa. Metz then went to check on Melissa in her bedroom, couldn't find a pulse, went and called an ambulance, returned to Melissa and found Byers and Ryan putting pants on her. After the ambulance took Melissa away, Ryan left.

I'm not saying this isn't sordid stuff, it is but Ryan Clark had a non-existent natural father, a drug addicted mother and stepfather (among their many problems), lived in absolute poverty at the time of his mother's death and of course, his brother was killed in one of the most notorious murder cases in Arkansas history. I don't think teaching him good manners was a priority so you should really cut him some slack.

Last edited by valleyofthedolls; 03-07-2010 at 10:31 PM.
  #31  
Old 03-08-2010, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by valleyofthedolls View Post
C'mon, you know this isn't really true. Genetic Designs, the outside lab used by the West Memphis for this case, found that the blood on the knife matched the HLA-DQ Apha type of Byers and his step-son (not to mention Michael Moore but for brevity's sake I won't go there or mention the weird statistical anomalies with the results of Genetic Designs's tests).

http://callahan.8k.com/images/geneti...4_attach_1.jpg

Byers has given conflicting statements on how the blood got on the knife but again, I think it's a moot point as the defense experts contend most of the injuries to the boys were caused by animal predation either perimortem or postmortem. Additonally, I know I said, in an earlier post, that the knife was not retested by the defense but I was wrong. The knife was submitted to Bode Laboratories for STR analysis and no additional results were obtained. JMB's knife simply isn't a factor anymore no matter how many times you repeat it.
I agree that there isn't evidence to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Mark Byers was involved in the murders. But if he wasn't involved in committing the murders and doesn't know who did the murders, it's hard to fathom why he acted the way he did during the filming of the two documentaries. Why did he tell police conflicting stories about what that knife had been used for? Why did he tell conflicting stories about when and why his teeth had been removed? Why would he want to act out in a violent and angry manner for the movies, shooting guns at pumpkins while he calls out the names of the accused murderers? They also filmed him saying similar things years later while setting a fire near the site where the murders had been committed. He volunteered that he had been abused in a manner similar to what had been done to his son during the murders, and at one point during the film he seemed to ask for his son's forgiveness for harming him. Basically, there's nothing solid, but plenty of things seemed "off" about him in the films. I do feel that he has been treated with an air of suspicion, which is unfortunate if he is innocent as he claims, but it appears that he brought a fair amount of suspicion upon himself.
  #32  
Old 03-08-2010, 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Sidney Evgeni Jordan View Post
I agree that there isn't evidence to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Mark Byers was involved in the murders. But if he wasn't involved in committing the murders and doesn't know who did the murders, it's hard to fathom why he acted the way he did during the filming of the two documentaries. Why did he tell police conflicting stories about what that knife had been used for? Why did he tell conflicting stories about when and why his teeth had been removed? Why would he want to act out in a violent and angry manner for the movies, shooting guns at pumpkins while he calls out the names of the accused murderers? They also filmed him saying similar things years later while setting a fire near the site where the murders had been committed. He volunteered that he had been abused in a manner similar to what had been done to his son during the murders, and at one point during the film he seemed to ask for his son's forgiveness for harming him. Basically, there's nothing solid, but plenty of things seemed "off" about him in the films. I do feel that he has been treated with an air of suspicion, which is unfortunate if he is innocent as he claims, but it appears that he brought a fair amount of suspicion upon himself.
Sorry, that should have been "beyond a reasonable doubt" and not "beyond a shadow of a doubt."

That said, I think he did all the things you've listed because Byers his own worst enemy just as Damien Echols did himself no favors when he (supposedly) blew kisses at the victims's families.

Understand, I think Byers is still a reasonable suspect though not for the reasons other posters have listed. Convicting someone, however, in the court of public opinion solely because you don't like the way that person behaves is repellent. And it is especially hypocritical to do so when you claim that someone else was railroaded because the public didn't approve of his music, clothes and religious choices.

Additionally, there's a huge amount of new case material that has come out in the past couple of years, evidence that leads away from Byers (and of course, the WM3) but do the posters who claim to be so interested in this case mention it? Or even know about it? No, because it's good enough for them that the freak with the bloody knife (blood that matches the freak's own HLA-DQ Alpha type) and who had his teeth pulled by a dentist (imagine that, having a dentist pull your rotting teeth and fit you for dentures) is the murderer. A lot of people now have their sights on Terry Hobbs (Steve Branch's stepfather) for similar reasons. Like Byers, I think he's a reasonable suspect (and an all-around terrible person) but there simply isn't enough evidence to convict him. It's a shame.

Last edited by valleyofthedolls; 03-08-2010 at 02:09 AM.
  #33  
Old 03-08-2010, 03:56 AM
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No one has to provide the real murderer before the injustice done to the WM3 can be made right.
  #34  
Old 03-08-2010, 08:11 AM
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No one has to provide the real murderer before the injustice done to the WM3 can be made right.
Of course not. I was just engaging in speculation. The murders may very well have been committed randomly by some person from the community or even someone who was just passing through town. I think it's human nature to wonder who actually did it, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by valleyofthedolls View Post
Sorry, that should have been "beyond a reasonable doubt" and not "beyond a shadow of a doubt."
I knew what you meant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by valleyofthedolls View Post
That said, I think he did all the things you've listed because Byers his own worst enemy just as Damien Echols did himself no favors when he (supposedly) blew kisses at the victims's families.
I agree. Stress and grief can have strange effects on people. It troubles me a bit that Damien is believed to have done that, and that he came across as arrogant and aloof during the original trial. But I tend to give Damien some benefit of the doubt because he was only 18, and people were taunting him whenever they could, accusing him of all sorts of crazy things. Mark Byers was (supposedly) a mature adult, and given his criminal past, you would think he would have been more careful about acting suspiciously. But no one can really understand the stress Byers was under, and I think he's probably a weird guy with some mental health issues, who might have been drunk or high when he said and did those things.
  #35  
Old 03-08-2010, 12:05 PM
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No one has to provide the real murderer before the injustice done to the WM3 can be made right.
I seriously doubt the case will ever be solved. It's way too 'cold case' by now and so much evidence was lost or just never collected at the time of the murders. I think this is one reason the WM3 have never been granted another trial. (Where's Cousin Vinnie when you need him?)

Last edited by Sampiro; 03-08-2010 at 12:06 PM.
  #36  
Old 03-08-2010, 10:10 PM
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Sampiro, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Do you think the WM3 haven't been granted another trial because they haven't been able to prove who really did the crime? Or that it hasn't been granted because so much evidence was lost or never collected? Or something else?
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Old 03-08-2010, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Sidney Evgeni Jordan View Post
Sampiro, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Do you think the WM3 haven't been granted another trial because they haven't been able to prove who really did the crime? Or that it hasn't been granted because so much evidence was lost or never collected? Or something else?
I mean that I don't think the case will ever be solved, and that the fact that without the WM3 as scapegoats there's nobody to take for the fall for a terrible crime is one reason they've never been granted new trials.
  #38  
Old 03-15-2010, 03:27 PM
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Hi Everyone this case is finally getting the attention it deserves and as much as I appreciate all the celebrities coming out in support, I wonder why does it takes celebrities to make so many people do the right thing ?

Anway I am looking forward to the next movie and hope it has the proverbial happy ending

www.paradiselost3.com
  #39  
Old 03-15-2010, 03:43 PM
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Is there a release date for PL3 yet? Is it going to be on HBO? (I think a theatrical release through independent cinemas would be a great fundraiser.)
  #40  
Old 03-15-2010, 03:54 PM
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Thanks for the links to your message board. It's OK to post your links, but the custom here is generally to give a bit more of an update/contribution to the discussion.

It would be awesome if the new movie could have a happy ending, but that would require the WM3 to be exonerated via some procedure other than federal appeals, which I understand would take some time. Has some other type of appeal for action been made recently?
  #41  
Old 03-22-2020, 06:02 PM
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Evidently a new documentary will be on Investigation Discovery on 5 April at 9 PM Eastern.
  #42  
Old 04-03-2020, 06:35 PM
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Bumping as a reminder of the documentary on ID Sunday, 9 - midnight. Comcast lists it as three separate one-hour episodes and I've already set my DVR.
  #43  
Old 04-03-2020, 09:48 PM
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There was something on last week that was pretty interesting.
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  #44  
Old 04-06-2020, 11:42 PM
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Damn. That "expert" with the diploma mill PhD is still a nutcase!
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