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Old 02-24-2020, 11:13 AM
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If elected, will Bernie stay a Democrat?


If we assume Sanders is elected President, will he remain a nominal Democrat or will he return to being an independent. And if your answer is he will stay a Democrat so he has the party support for his re-election in 2024 then assume he wins again in 2024. Without worrying about running again will he resume being an independent?
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Old 02-24-2020, 11:29 AM
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Bernie would stay a Democrat to help retain the support of Democrats in Congress, which he would need. Flipping back to being an Independent in office would be a slap in the face to the party that put him in power.
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Old 02-24-2020, 12:50 PM
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Flipping back to being an Independent in office would be a slap in the face to the party that put him in power.
He loves slapping that party in the face. If he wins in November, he'll be an independent by January.
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Old 02-24-2020, 12:59 PM
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Bernie does what he says he'll do--he's running as a Democrat, he's agreed to serve as a Democrat and he'll do just that. He's caucused with the Dems all along but stays independent because his constituency in Vermont is more comfortable with that and he wants to show them he's sensitive to their preferences. Bernie don't give a fuck about labels, in case it's escaped anyone's notice, but he's aware not everyone feels the same way.
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Old 02-24-2020, 12:59 PM
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He'll stay a Democrat to change the party to be more like him.

Worked for the current "Republican" in office. But I don't mind if Bernie does it.
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Old 02-24-2020, 01:35 PM
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Assuming he lives until 2024, what good would leaving the Democratic party do? Wouldn't the party just nominate someone else for President, resulting in a three-way race? Or would he sign one of those "Democratic Party loyalty oaths" like he had to in order to run as a Democrat in 2020?
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Old 02-24-2020, 09:45 PM
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He loves slapping that party in the face. If he wins in November, he'll be an independent by January.
This. He went back to being an Independent within months of losing to Hillary, as shown on his Senate website. He's run against Vermont Democrats 14 times over the course of his career.
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Old 02-24-2020, 09:51 PM
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He's caucused with the Dems all along but stays independent because his constituency in Vermont is more comfortable with that and he wants to show them he's sensitive to their preferences.
Yeah, Patrick Leahy is on real thin ice in Vermont for being a Democrat representing the state since 1974.
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Old 02-24-2020, 09:59 PM
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This. He went back to being an Independent within months of losing to Hillary, as shown on his Senate website. He's run against Vermont Democrats 14 times over the course of his career.
Ok...

Quote:
Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., has formally declared himself a member of the Democratic Party as he seeks its presidential nomination in 2020, abiding by new Democratic National Committee rules.

"I am a member of the Democratic Party," reads the statement to the DNC that Sanders signed and notarized Tuesday. It also asserts that Sanders will serve as a Democrat if elected president and that the DNC can determine who is "a bonafide Democrat."

SOURCE: Bernie Sanders signs DNC loyalty pledge: 'I am a member of the Democratic Party'
NOTE: If you want to run as a Democrat you have to sign that pledge (at least for president). It is part of the DNC rules so, unless changed, Sanders will continue as a democrat.
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Old 02-24-2020, 10:21 PM
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As recently as Jan. 29, his Senate website still describes him as an Independent: https://www.sanders.senate.gov/
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Old 02-24-2020, 10:29 PM
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As recently as Jan. 29, his Senate website still describes him as an Independent: https://www.sanders.senate.gov/
So, do you want to go with the website some low tier staffer is tasked with updating and no one told him/her to change because they are kinda busy right now or do you want to go with the legal and notarized document Sanders signed and submitted to the DNC (a scan of which was in my last post)?

Also note that pledge says he agrees the DNC alone gets to decide who a "democrat" is. He does not have to agree. The DNC rules now explicitly state that they decide who is and is not a democrat.
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Old 02-25-2020, 01:09 PM
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NOTE: If you want to run as a Democrat you have to sign that pledge (at least for president). It is part of the DNC rules so, unless changed, Sanders will continue as a democrat.
And if he doesn't continue as a Dem then what can the DNC do?
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Old 02-25-2020, 01:47 PM
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As recently as Jan. 29, his Senate website still describes him as an Independent: https://www.sanders.senate.gov/
Sanders was elected to the Senate as an Independent, so there's no reason for his Senate site to claim anything different. When he did not win the Democratic nomination in 2016, he went back to being an Independent because he was elected as an Independent, and not elected as a Democrat.

I'm sure that if he is elected as a Democrat, he will serve as a Democrat. I think any speculation that he will do otherwise is just silly.

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Old 02-25-2020, 01:57 PM
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Who cares what he calls himself? He's more left/liberal than most of the Democratic party. If he becomes president it's not like he's suddenly going to adopt a bunch of far right policies. We know what his policy positions are and have been for the last 40 years. They aren't going to change.
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Old 02-25-2020, 02:53 PM
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he had to declare to be a Dem because in many states he has to do that to be on the ballot as a Dem. Here in NC he had to do that by Jan 3rd for the March 3rd primary.
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Old 02-25-2020, 10:19 PM
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And if he doesn't continue as a Dem then what can the DNC do?
What he signed says the DNC can decide who is or is not a democrat. At the very least they can keep him off the dem ballot in future elections.

It also may give them some room for impeachment...not sure.
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Old 02-26-2020, 01:17 AM
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He will remain a Democrat (or "Democrat") exactly as long as he feels he absolutely has to, and not a millisecond longer.
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Old 02-26-2020, 04:35 AM
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He will remain a Democrat (or "Democrat") exactly as long as he feels he absolutely has to, and not a millisecond longer.

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... It also may give them some room for impeachment...not sure.


I don't think anyone here mistakes me for a Bernie-Brat. But show the man some respect! He's more of a Democrat than Lieberman (who got the VP nod in 2000), or than Bloomberg.

If the long-shot lottery comes in, and Bernie gets 270 ev's, I'll be passing out champagne in glee! It sounds like you guys might go straight into mourning.
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Old 02-26-2020, 04:53 AM
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Who cares what he calls himself? He's more left/liberal than most of the Democratic party. If he becomes president it's not like he's suddenly going to adopt a bunch of far right policies. We know what his policy positions are and have been for the last 40 years. They aren't going to change.
It matter because being an elected Democrat is more than just what you call yourself. It's joining a group. And while it might not be that big a deal for lower offices, a Democratic President is the highest level in the land, and comes with power and responsibilities. Why do you think Republicans give into Trump so often?

That said, I see absolutely no reason that Sanders would have to change parties. It would harm his ability to run again, and cut him off from allies. It's one thing to not change to a Democrat in the Senate and another to take an active step to disavow the Democrats once president.

It would not be a rational course of action for him.
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Old 02-26-2020, 10:36 AM
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...If you want to run as a Democrat you have to sign that pledge (at least for president). It is part of the DNC rules so, unless changed, Sanders will continue as a democrat.
That same month he hedged his bets for reelection to the Senate: https://www.npr.org/2019/03/04/70012...an-independent

If you want to be a Democrat, great, come on over! Glad to have you. But don't be a Democrat just twice in your career, having run against Vermont Democrats 14 times over the years and having spoken out publicly, sometimes insultingly, against the Democratic Party. Don't do it just when the Presidency might be within your grasp. That's nothing more than political opportunism.
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Old 02-26-2020, 03:30 PM
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I don't think it matters what label Bernie wears on his button. If his proposals are palatable to the Democratic Congress, they will pass. Democrats (unlike members of certain other parties) are not going to oppose a bill simply because it was proposed by another party.

What I'm more curious about is whether Bernie will walk as progressive as he talks now. Sure he's been consistent over the years, but as president he will have real power. I think he'll push for his ideals, but when the time comes, he'll sign whatever reforms that the Democratic Congress passes, even when they don't meet some progressive purity tests.
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Old 02-26-2020, 05:32 PM
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It does matter, because traditionally Democratic presidents are the leaders of the party; and ex-presidents are grandees within the party. It's clear that he has been resistant to join the party and has, as others have noted, done so on a de minimis basis out of pure political opportunism. He will leave the party as soon as he can get away with it politically, count on it.
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Old 02-26-2020, 06:50 PM
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I'm sure that if he is elected as a Democrat, he will serve as a Democrat. I think any speculation that he will do otherwise is just silly.
What does that even mean? I know it was in the pledge he signed, but I don't know what it means. Does it mean he won't officially change his affiliation while in office? OK, but that's kind of meaningless.
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Old 02-26-2020, 07:43 PM
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I see this question as equivalent to asking if Trump will leave office if he loses.

Yes, he will. Yes, Sanders will stay a Democrat if elected as one.

Everything else is internet crap that we need to stamp out.
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Old 02-26-2020, 08:59 PM
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No. Itís not just some absurd conspiracy theory to smear Bernie. Less than a year ago, he filed with the FEC as an independent for 2024! What kind of real Democrat does that?

https://docquery.fec.gov/pdf/416/201...9145600416.pdf

ETA: This is intentionally part of his appeal to his supporters. Wink wink nudge nudge Iím not really one of them. You could make an argument for it pulling more people into his campaign who donít like the Democratic Party, but itís silly to dismiss it as not a thing.

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Old 02-26-2020, 09:17 PM
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No true Democrat would...
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Old 02-27-2020, 06:13 PM
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No. Itís not just some absurd conspiracy theory to smear Bernie. Less than a year ago, he filed with the FEC as an independent for 2024! What kind of real Democrat does that?
A) That was a filing for the office of Senator of the State of Vermont, for which he is the elected, currently serving Independent. What else would anyone expect him to declare?

B) We're talking about him being the elected Democratic President of the United States. Utterly different situation. As the elected Democratic President of the United States he would be insane to declare himself something else. It will not happen. It is an absurd conspiracy theory. Whether it's designed to smear Sanders or just that the internet itself is insane I can't say. But my general low opinion of humanity tends toward the latter.
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Old 02-27-2020, 11:32 PM
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Do you not realize that Michael Bloomberg switched his affiliation to independent while in office, after winning election on the Republican line? This is not at all insane, it’s exactly what you would expect someone to do when they only use a party out of expediency like both of those New York rich guys did. I expect Bernie’s most hardcore supporters will be delighted for him to do that.

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Old 02-28-2020, 11:19 AM
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He will no longer be a democratic socialist, he will be a socialist Democrat.

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Old 02-28-2020, 11:20 AM
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Pithy.
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Old 02-28-2020, 11:33 AM
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Do you not realize that Michael Bloomberg switched his affiliation to independent while in office, after winning election on the Republican line? This is not at all insane, itís exactly what you would expect someone to do when they only use a party out of expediency like both of those New York rich guys did. I expect Bernieís most hardcore supporters will be delighted for him to do that.
Again irrelevant. Bloomberg ran on the lines he thought would be winners. His actual party identification was secondary. In fact, he ran on both the Republican and Independence lines in the 2009 election, after becoming an independent, which gave him the edge he needed.

But there is no third party in Presidential politics. Sanders cannot hope to build one. He cannot expect that there would be any advantage whatsoever in changing affiliation. As a Democratic President he is the leader of the Democratic Party, not an individual battling it. He's smart enough to know that. The internet, well, I have my doubts about, but the internet says a lot of things.
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Old 02-28-2020, 01:30 PM
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The Internet said you were a lizardman, but I don't believe it.
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Old 02-28-2020, 01:49 PM
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The Internet said you were a lizardman, but I don't believe it.
And properly so. I'm one of those hermaphroditic lizards. Need proof? I spelled hermaphroditic right the first time.
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Old 02-28-2020, 11:13 PM
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The Internet also said you just copied and pasted it, and that I believe.
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Old 02-28-2020, 11:54 PM
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I fear he will join the Federalist Party.
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Old 02-28-2020, 11:57 PM
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Who cares if he stays a Democrat or not? Can anyone explain why this matters?
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Old 02-29-2020, 12:19 AM
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Who cares if he stays a Democrat or not? Can anyone explain why this matters?

It doesn't matter to the kind of people who disdain political parties and don't believe, as I do, that partybuilding is important.
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Old 02-29-2020, 07:49 AM
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A) That was a filing for the office of Senator of the State of Vermont, for which he is the elected, currently serving Independent. What else would anyone expect him to declare?

B) We're talking about him being the elected Democratic President of the United States. Utterly different situation. As the elected Democratic President of the United States he would be insane to declare himself something else. It will not happen. It is an absurd conspiracy theory. Whether it's designed to smear Sanders or just that the internet itself is insane I can't say. But my general low opinion of humanity tends toward the latter.
But he is still the same person. He either is a Democrat or not. He cannot hold one hand up and be "Bernie the Senator--Independent" and then hold the other hand up and say he is "Bernie the Presidential Candidate-Democrat." Bernie Sanders the individual has to choose his political affiliation across the board.
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Old 02-29-2020, 09:50 AM
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But he is still the same person. He either is a Democrat or not.
Nonsense. One can become a democrat (as Sanders has done). One can also cease to be a Democrat. It's a political party, not an ethnicity. When did changing parties become anathema?

Maybe he's just donning the party mantle for convenience. Would that make his party membership illegitimate? He's still enmeshed in the party machinery. He's still having to publicly proclaim himself a Democrat. He isn't trying to hide or disguise his years as an Independent.

In other words, other than failing a purity test, I don't see the problem.
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Old 02-29-2020, 09:55 AM
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Nonsense. One can become a democrat (as Sanders has done). One can also cease to be a Democrat. It's a political party, not an ethnicity. When did changing parties become anathema?

Maybe he's just donning the party mantle for convenience. Would that make his party membership illegitimate? He's still enmeshed in the party machinery. He's still having to publicly proclaim himself a Democrat. He isn't trying to hide or disguise his years as an Independent.

In other words, other than failing a purity test, I don't see the problem.
I agree that he can switch parties. What I am saying is that he cannot be both things at once.
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Old 02-29-2020, 09:59 AM
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I agree that he can switch parties. What I am saying is that he cannot be both things at once.
Was it John McCain who tried to brand himself as "maverick" and still be Republican? You can certainly attempt to brand yourself as (small-i) independent and capital-d Democrat. Especially if you're leading the party: "I'm not beholden to Democrat groupthink! I am independent!" I mean, look at Trump. Okay, now you can look away again.

Of course he can't do two political affiliations at once, but (1) Independent isn't a party as such, and (2) he's not trying to, is he?
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Old 02-29-2020, 10:22 AM
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Was it John McCain who tried to brand himself as "maverick" and still be Republican? You can certainly attempt to brand yourself as (small-i) independent and capital-d Democrat. Especially if you're leading the party: "I'm not beholden to Democrat groupthink! I am independent!" I mean, look at Trump. Okay, now you can look away again.

Of course he can't do two political affiliations at once, but (1) Independent isn't a party as such, and (2) he's not trying to, is he?
Right. Independent is not a party, however it denotes that a person is not a member of a political party.

The U.S. Senate website refers to Sanders as an Independent, even as recently as yesterday's roll call vote: https://www.senate.gov/legislative/L...n=2&vote=00062

My contention is that Sanders may not simultaneously claim to be a Democrat, yet also claim that he is not a member of any political party i.e. an Independent.
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Old 02-29-2020, 10:27 AM
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Right. Independent is not a party, however it denotes that a person is not a member of a political party.

The U.S. Senate website refers to Sanders as an Independent, even as recently as yesterday's roll call vote: https://www.senate.gov/legislative/L...n=2&vote=00062

My contention is that Sanders may not simultaneously claim to be a Democrat, yet also claim that he is not a member of any political party i.e. an Independent.
Oh, I get you now. Thanks. In his current job, he is an Indedependent. In his next job (assuming he gets it), he'll be a Democrat. He's interviewing for that job. Just because the interview process is long and drawn-out...

But you'd rather, since he's campaigning as a Democrat, that he switch his current party affiliation. I don't agree that it's necessary for him to do so, or that there's any huge conflict, but at least now I see your point, which is quite reasonable.
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Old 02-29-2020, 10:28 AM
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Sanders has caucused with the Democrats every moment since he entered Congress, to the best of my knowledge. He is running as a Democrat in Democratic primaries. He will be the Democratic nominee if the convention votes for him. He will be the Democratic president if he wins.

I'll bet that most of the country doesn't know he's an independent in the Senate. And I'll bet that nobody except a few Sanders haters cares.

tl;dr He can be both, because he is.
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Old 02-29-2020, 11:17 AM
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Oh, I get you now. Thanks. In his current job, he is an Indedependent. In his next job (assuming he gets it), he'll be a Democrat. He's interviewing for that job. Just because the interview process is long and drawn-out...

But you'd rather, since he's campaigning as a Democrat, that he switch his current party affiliation. I don't agree that it's necessary for him to do so, or that there's any huge conflict, but at least now I see your point, which is quite reasonable.
I agree that he would not necessarily have to become a Democrat to run, but the DNC requires it, so he does.

In order to run, he affirmed that he is a member of the Democratic Party: https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...ty-pledge.html

Yet in the Senate, he insists (by virtue of remaining labeled as an Independent) that he is not a member of the Democratic Party.

Either way, logically he cannot be both at the same time.
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Old 02-29-2020, 03:02 PM
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That same month he hedged his bets for reelection to the Senate: https://www.npr.org/2019/03/04/70012...an-independent

If you want to be a Democrat, great, come on over! Glad to have you. But don't be a Democrat just twice in your career, having run against Vermont Democrats 14 times over the years and having spoken out publicly, sometimes insultingly, against the Democratic Party. Don't do it just when the Presidency might be within your grasp. That's nothing more than political opportunism.
I'd argue Sanders is more a democrat than democrats.

Yeah, I know you just popped a blood vessel at that outrageous claim. The Democratic party is whatever it says it is.

My contention is the Democratic party are supposed to be liberals. But they really are not any more. They are just not quite as far right Republicans these days (see Third Way politics the Clintons made popular).

For my money the country needs an actual liberal party and Sanders/Warren are that.
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Old 02-29-2020, 07:54 PM
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Who cares if he stays a Democrat or not? Can anyone explain why this matters?
If Bernie is elected as a Dem then declares himself an Independent, we may have our first serious party split since the Bull Moose Party.
  #48  
Old 02-29-2020, 07:56 PM
Saint Cad is offline
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Originally Posted by Dr. Drake View Post
Oh, I get you now. Thanks. In his current job, he is an Indedependent. In his next job (assuming he gets it), he'll be a Democrat. He's interviewing for that job. Just because the interview process is long and drawn-out...

But you'd rather, since he's campaigning as a Democrat, that he switch his current party affiliation. I don't agree that it's necessary for him to do so, or that there's any huge conflict, but at least now I see your point, which is quite reasonable.
I'd have to review that document he signed but I believe that according to it (and IMO according to principles) that to be in the Democrat primary he has TO BE (not will be) a Democrat during the process.
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Old 03-01-2020, 12:53 AM
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Yes, and declaring for reelection as an independent would appear to be a violation of that pledge.
  #50  
Old 03-01-2020, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
So, do you want to go with the website some low tier staffer is tasked with updating and no one told him/her to change because they are kinda busy right now or do you want to go with the legal and notarized document Sanders signed and submitted to the DNC (a scan of which was in my last post)?

Also note that pledge says he agrees the DNC alone gets to decide who a "democrat" is. He does not have to agree. The DNC rules now explicitly state that they decide who is and is not a democrat.
Waitaminute. If the DNC decides whoís a Democrat, they should do an October Surprise, and announce that the America-hating fuckstick and Pence are Democrats. Then there wonít be a MAGA moron alive whoíll vote for them.
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