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Old 08-18-2018, 01:11 AM
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Mormons aren't Mormons anymore

In another case of history repeating itself, the LDS Church no longer wants to be known as "Mormon."
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The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints really, truly, absolutely wants to be known as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Not the LDS Church. Not the Mormon church.

It made that clear Thursday — even though the last attempt to eradicate those nicknames for the Utah-based faith flopped.
They tried this back in 2001, just before the 2002 Salt Lake Olympics. It was hard for my Mormon LDS mother, but she managed to reduce it from her vocabulary.

Then suddenly in 2010 or so, the church reversed course and started an "I am a Mormon" TV commercial campaign. My mother enjoying being able to say she's a Mormon again.

Now, 18 years later, it's back to not being a Mormon.
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Old 08-18-2018, 01:42 AM
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I'd go for dropping the second m.
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Old 08-18-2018, 01:48 AM
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How about cult?
The Cult of Latter day Saints.
Sounds right to me.
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Old 08-18-2018, 02:08 AM
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They should rebrand themselves as The Church of Jesus Christ of Ladder Day Saints, each of them required to always carry a ladder in anticipation of Ladder Day, when the trap doors of Heaven will open and everyone with a ladder can climb up.
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Old 08-18-2018, 03:21 AM
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They should rebrand themselves as The Church of Jesus Christ of Ladder Day Saints, each of them required to always carry a ladder in anticipation of Ladder Day, when the trap doors of Heaven will open and everyone with a ladder can climb up.
Heey, what about us acrophobics who can't scale more than two rungs up a ladder?

Won't somebody think of the acrophobics?
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Old 08-18-2018, 07:08 AM
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What do you call former Mormons? Formons!
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Old 08-18-2018, 10:45 AM
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What do you call former Mormons? Formons!
You call them An Obvious Improvement.
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Old 08-18-2018, 11:22 AM
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What exactly do they think they are accomplishing with this? It would be one thing if "Mormon" was used primarily as a pejorative, but it's not. And telling people not to abbreviate their long name? Don't have a long name.

And do they really think claiming God told them this insignificant tripe makes them seem like they're more in touch with God? God doesn't change his mind, and you can't keep pushing the "God allowed it in the past" angle. And the excuse used for polygamy barely worked back then.

Sure, maybe any Mormon will go along with it, since they go along with a lot already. But Mormonism is very much about prosthelytizing. Do you really think they'll agree to follow this God that's into petty, unimportant things like semantics?
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Old 08-18-2018, 11:24 AM
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My thing is, I didn't know Mormons couldn't send flowers.
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Old 08-18-2018, 11:28 AM
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It's going to take divine intervention to get people to start using Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in general conversation.
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Old 08-18-2018, 11:30 AM
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I suppose the musical will now be called "Book of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

Doesn't have the same ring to it.
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Old 08-18-2018, 11:39 AM
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My thing is, I didn't know Mormons couldn't send flowers.
I know they can’t dance. Wait, that’s the Amish!
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Old 08-18-2018, 11:41 AM
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I know they can’t dance. Wait, that’s the Amish!
Some people, ya just can't discuss religion.
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Old 08-18-2018, 12:03 PM
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You call them An Obvious Improvement.
Thanks!

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And do they really think claiming God told them this insignificant tripe makes them seem like they're more in touch with God?
We have always been at war with Eastasia.

I may have to head over to some Mormon boards to see the reaction.
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Old 08-18-2018, 12:29 PM
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(snip) It would be one thing if "Mormon" was used primarily as a pejorative, but it's not. (snip)
I always got the impression that some detractors did use "Mormon" pejoratively, and for that reason "LDS" was preferable. Was this ever true?
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Old 08-18-2018, 12:49 PM
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I suppose the musical will now be called "Book of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

Doesn't have the same ring to it.
The lines in the song "I Believe" will have to be changed to,
"I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints,
and a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints just believes."

That doesn't really scan.
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Old 08-18-2018, 12:51 PM
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Will the choir now be known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints Tabernacle Choir?
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Old 08-18-2018, 01:03 PM
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What exactly do they think they are accomplishing with this? It would be one thing if "Mormon" was used primarily as a pejorative, but it's not. And telling people not to abbreviate their long name? Don't have a long name.

And do they really think claiming God told them this insignificant tripe makes them seem like they're more in touch with God? God doesn't change his mind, and you can't keep pushing the "God allowed it in the past" angle. And the excuse used for polygamy barely worked back then.

Sure, maybe any Mormon will go along with it, since they go along with a lot already. But Mormonism is very much about prosthelytizing. Do you really think they'll agree to follow this God that's into petty, unimportant things like semantics?
AIUI, they think too many people don't consider them a real Christian church, so they want to get the jesus christ part of the name out in front.
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Old 08-18-2018, 01:07 PM
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What exactly do they think they are accomplishing with this? It would be one thing if "Mormon" was used primarily as a pejorative, but it's not. And telling people not to abbreviate their long name? Don't have a long name.

And do they really think claiming God told them this insignificant tripe makes them seem like they're more in touch with God? God doesn't change his mind, and you can't keep pushing the "God allowed it in the past" angle. And the excuse used for polygamy barely worked back then.

Sure, maybe any Mormon will go along with it, since they go along with a lot already. But Mormonism is very much about prosthelytizing. Do you really think they'll agree to follow this God that's into petty, unimportant things like semantics?
Whichever title ends up being actually used will become pejorative over time anyway, if it isn't already. The long name sounds euphemistic (because it is), and any group that insists on being referred to only by euphemism is embarrassed to exist. Which, in this particular case, is unfortunately quite justifiable.
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Old 08-18-2018, 01:36 PM
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Maybe they think they can fool dyslexics into believing that attending church is a trip. Maybe they can rewrite the song as "Lucy in the Diamond Sky?"
And do they need to recall and rename the book?
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Old 08-18-2018, 01:59 PM
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Maybe they think they can fool dyslexics into believing that attending church is a trip. Maybe they can rewrite the song as "Lucy in the Diamond Sky?"
And do they need to recall and rename the book?
They're saying no more LDS either, that it must be laboriously spelled out every time.
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Old 08-18-2018, 02:28 PM
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AIUI, they think too many people don't consider them a real Christian church, so they want to get the jesus christ part of the name out in front.
Exactly. They don't want Mormon or LDS. The long form is unchanged, the short form is "Church of Jesus Christ". They want people to know they are followers of Jesus Christ, because certain other Christians won't call them Christian.
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Old 08-18-2018, 02:33 PM
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Maybe they think they can fool dyslexics into believing that attending church is a trip. Maybe they can rewrite the song as "Lucy in the Diamond Sky?"
And do they need to recall and rename the book?
That's easy; "The Book of Contrived Poppycock By Inveterate Fabulator Joseph Smith". I know it seems complicated at first but it rolls off the tongue with surprising ease after a little practice.

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Exactly. They don't want Mormon or LDS. The long form is unchanged, the short form is "Church of Jesus Christ". They want people to know they are followers of Jesus Christ, because certain other Christians won't call them Christian.
Maybe they should just refer to themselves as "Post-Protestant Christians", or alternatively, "Jehovah's Witnesses Lite".

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Last edited by Stranger On A Train; 08-18-2018 at 02:35 PM.
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Old 08-18-2018, 03:19 PM
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We could call it "The Church Formerly Known as Mormons".

Or...

Lutherans are named after Martin Luther.

Calvinists are named after John Calvin.

Amish are named after Jakob Ammann.

So maybe LDS members could be known as Smithereens.
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Old 08-18-2018, 03:20 PM
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They don't want Mormon or LDS.
If you Google "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints", the top 3 hits are Wikipedia, lds.org and mormon.org.
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Old 08-18-2018, 03:30 PM
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Would newspapers, like the NYT, honor that request? That is, will the style guide recommend using "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" instead of "Mormon" or even "LDS"?

Last edited by John Mace; 08-18-2018 at 03:30 PM.
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Old 08-18-2018, 03:52 PM
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Somehow I doubt it.

• Refer to “the Church,” the “Church of Jesus Christ” or the “restored Church of Jesus Christ” in shortened or subsequent references.

Sounds like they are making a play to be "The Church," an appellation that has belonged to Roman Catholicism for the last 2000 years. It isn't going to fly, not before, not now, not ever.
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Old 08-18-2018, 03:53 PM
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Why do they bury Mormons 12 feet deep?

Because deep down, they are good people.

But seriously, one thing about their missionaries, they are not hypocrites.

My neighbor, a older man was cleaning his gutters, when they came by. They asked if there was anything they could do, and he said, half in joking "Yeah, clean out these damn gutters for me". And they rolled up their sleeves and did it. I have heard similar stories.

So no, I don't like the precepts of their church, but I do give admiration to religious people who aren't hypocrites.
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Old 08-18-2018, 04:04 PM
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Sounds like they are making a play to be "The Church," an appellation that has belonged to Roman Catholicism for the last 2000 years.
Cite? The meaning of "The Church" would depend entirely on context to me.
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Old 08-18-2018, 04:27 PM
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I believe there is a point there, Riemann, in that the Catholic Apostolic Christian Church, Roman Communion, has been referring to itself as just plain "The Church" since, well, Roman times and yet we still have to specify which one.


Yeah, for a while the COJCOLDS seemed to be going for the "let's reclaim this expression and make it ours" route, which is to me seemed a good tack to take, and now they've turned around again.

Now with this... there may be as mentioned the concern that what with a reinvigorated "Christian" Right around, they may want to make it perfectly clear where they stand (not that some of the Christian Right would give a damn, they don't even count Catholics, for cryin'out loud). But also, who knows, there may be also a sense that the times having changed and there having been a greater sociocultural move to accept the "call people what they want to be called" norm, empowers them to demand that the outsiders' shorthand be avoided. As in, before it was inevitable that people would use it so let's adapt and try to turn it positive; now, maybe we can finally convince people to not use it.

But I expect that even with the best of intentions, outsiders will NOT abbreviate to just "The Church of Jesus Christ" (BTW are they going to do an Ohio State and demand that "the" be emphasized?) because that's too nonspecific. There's a pile of denominations claiming to be that. Outsiders will at best abreviate to "Latter Day Saints" because that's what's different.



I suppose from their point of view it's an imprecision like Muslims being called Mohameddans. Part of the matter, is that the scripture IS called "Book of Mormon" after a character therein. So the name will be forever associated with the religion no matter what.

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Old 08-18-2018, 05:21 PM
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I believe there is a point there, Riemann, in that the Catholic Apostolic Christian Church, Roman Communion, has been referring to itself as just plain "The Church" since, well, Roman times and yet we still have to specify which one.
Well, if the context is the RC church talking about itself, or Catholics talking among themselves, then obviously they would just say "The Church", without qualification. It would be strange to say "The Catholic Church" if you're all Catholics talking about your church. I don't think the usage implies that anyone is trying to lay claim to the expression. It's no different from just saying "the house" when you are talking you your spouse about the family home. Out of context I don't think "The Church" implies any particular Church - in fact, I think it would be odd to just say "The Church" without qualification unless the context makes clear what you're talking about.

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Old 08-18-2018, 06:18 PM
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They're saying no more LDS either, that it must be laboriously spelled out every time.
Oh, they've cornered the ink market, have they?

(That's what I get from reading only the title.)
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Old 08-18-2018, 06:20 PM
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Yeah, for a while the COJCOLDS seemed to be going for the "let's reclaim this expression and make it ours" route, which is to me seemed a good tack to take, and now they've turned around again.
COJCOLDS? Isn't that a Stephen King book?
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Old 08-18-2018, 06:20 PM
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Why do they bury Mormons 12 feet deep?

Because deep down, they are good people.

But seriously, one thing about their missionaries, they are not hypocrites.

My neighbor, a older man was cleaning his gutters, when they came by. They asked if there was anything they could do, and he said, half in joking "Yeah, clean out these damn gutters for me". And they rolled up their sleeves and did it. I have heard similar stories.

So no, I don't like the precepts of their church, but I do give admiration to religious people who aren't hypocrites.
That they are not afraid to work hard, does not make them honest. We can say someone is honest AND hard-working, exactly because those are separate things. If they are religious hypocrites who work hard, well, halfway there is better than nothing.
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Old 08-18-2018, 06:23 PM
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That's easy; "The Book of Contrived Poppycock By Inveterate Fabulator Joseph Smith". I know it seems complicated at first but it rolls off the tongue with surprising ease after a little practice.

Stranger
My daughter got a copy when she hung out with Mormons, uh, LDSers, uh yadda-yaddaers in junior high. Her conclusion was that they were nice but nuts.

I've got to put it in my SF collection some time along with the standard Bible. But then I'd have to read it, and I understand Mark Twain gave it a bad review.
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Old 08-18-2018, 06:33 PM
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I always got the impression that some detractors did use "Mormon" pejoratively, and for that reason "LDS" was preferable. Was this ever true?
Back in the 60s and 70s when I was growing up, we were definitely “Mormon.” There was no question the we identified and accepted that name.

There have always been detractors to the Church (as Mormons refer to their organization) and they use that term as it’s the one most recognized or for us former members, the one we used to self identify.

However, according to speculation the idea is more for two other reasons. First is that since I left (although not my fault!) the Church has attempted to become more mainstream and wants to be seen as a “normal” Christian faith.

Many evangelical Christians see Mormons as not Christian, so the thought is that rebranding would help.

The second is that the Church wants to distance itself from the greater Mormon movement which includes fundamentalist Mormons who practice polygamy.

In the last major push for this in 2001, they still accepted the term “LDS” but this time they want people to use the entire name in full. Good luck with that.

There in a new prophet this year and there is always hope for new messages from God. So maybe this is the awaited new Word.
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Old 08-18-2018, 06:35 PM
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The name change in the past and I assume now is because they primarily recruit from unattached Christians. When you say you're Mormon, many people already are turned off for obvious reasons. When you say you want them to go to your Church of Jesus Christ, they think you're a non-denom.

It's the same strategy that Scientologists use. They don't ask you to join Scientology, they ask you to join a self-help group or to take a personality assessment.
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Old 08-18-2018, 06:49 PM
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There in a new prophet this year and there is always hope for new messages from God.
Phase 1 Collect magic underwear
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Old 08-18-2018, 06:52 PM
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The prophecy came at a time when #ProtectLDSChildren started trending; not to mention they'd rather not be associated w/ the MormonLeaks website, not even in name. Can't have an investigator stumble on hard evidence of hypocrisies before they've gotten baptized.
The man who's hunger striking to stop the sexually explicit child interviews entered his third week just as they made the announcement; now everyone in Utah's distracted by the ridiculousness and far-reaching name changes that would be required to comply w/ the church's rules.
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Old 08-18-2018, 06:53 PM
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... maybe this is the awaited new Word.
Grease is the Word (is the Word, is the Word).
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Old 08-18-2018, 07:12 PM
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My daughter got a copy when she hung out with Mormons, uh, LDSers, uh yadda-yaddaers in junior high. Her conclusion was that they were nice but nuts.

I've got to put it in my SF collection some time along with the standard Bible. But then I'd have to read it, and I understand Mark Twain gave it a bad review.
I have read a random-ish sample of it, more than 50 pages. As far as style, it is exactly like the stuff people write when they want to make fun of "Bible talk" - gratuitous Thees and Thous; using old verb forms like hadst and wouldst without understanding how they work and therefore getting the grammar mostly wrong; and broken, nonsensical, pseudo-olde-timey sentence structure.

As far as content, well, imagine a green young wannabe sci-fi/fantasy author (emphasis on the wannabe and fantasy parts), 24 years old, in the early 19th century, deciding to invent a new religion that sounds vaguely biblical but is pretty strict about "Made In America", except for the part about its ancient Egyptian origins.

Because, well, that's what it is. It's a 19th-century fantasy novel written entirely in "fake Bible talk". Thou better believe thou it, yea, unto the uttermost, the real real uttermost, better thou it believing unto. Yea and verily.
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Old 08-18-2018, 08:17 PM
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As far as content, well, imagine a green young wannabe sci-fi/fantasy author (emphasis on the wannabe and fantasy parts), 24 years old, in the early 19th century, deciding to invent a new religion that sounds vaguely biblical but is pretty strict about "Made In America", except for the part about its ancient Egyptian origins.
”They may be pink, but their money is still green.” —J. R. ‘Bob’ Dobbs

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Old 08-18-2018, 08:45 PM
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Would newspapers, like the NYT, honor that request? That is, will the style guide recommend using "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" instead of "Mormon" or even "LDS"?
Maybe the church just wants to stay out of the headlines.
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Old 08-18-2018, 08:46 PM
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Seems that in a world full of suffering this is a foolish waste of time. Besides, rebadging simply causes confusion.
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Old 08-18-2018, 09:06 PM
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Seems that in a world full of suffering this is a foolish waste of time. Besides, rebadging simply causes confusion.
Confusion and obfuscation is precisely the Mormons' goal.
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Old 08-18-2018, 09:13 PM
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”They may be pink, but their money is still green.” —J. R. ‘Bob’ Dobbs
You see, now there is a credible religious founding figure.
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Old 08-19-2018, 03:28 AM
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The name change in the past and I assume now is because they primarily recruit from unattached Christians. When you say you're Mormon, many people already are turned off for obvious reasons. When you say you want them to go to your Church of Jesus Christ, they think you're a non-denom.
I read that initially as "non-demon"...
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Old 08-19-2018, 03:44 AM
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As far as content, well, imagine a green young wannabe sci-fi/fantasy author (emphasis on the wannabe and fantasy parts), 24 years old, in the early 19th century, deciding to invent a new religion that sounds vaguely biblical but is pretty strict about "Made In America", except for the part about its ancient Egyptian origins.
Why, it's almost as if you could turn it into a TV space opera.
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Old 08-19-2018, 03:53 AM
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Lord Feldon Lord Feldon is offline
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It sounds like this is a particular hobby horse of President Nelson, so it won't last more than (checks actuarial table) three years or so.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 08-19-2018 at 03:57 AM.
  #50  
Old 08-19-2018, 04:10 AM
RTFirefly RTFirefly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skdo23 View Post
I know they can’t dance. Wait, that’s the Amish!
No, you had it right the first time.

The Amish aren't allowed to dance.

Mormons can't dance.
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