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Old 10-28-2019, 10:55 AM
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How do we fix this?


LAZombie posts this hot nonsense:

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Originally Posted by LAZombie View Post
I truly believe that liberals will do anything to hurt Trump including sabotaging a mission to kill terrorists.
I mean, what the fuck?
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Old 10-28-2019, 11:00 AM
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An almost universal human trait is to impute one's own sins and frailties to others. Liars think other people are liars. Cheaters think others cheat. Haters think others hate. LAZombie would probably have been delighted if one of Obama's military actions got sabotaged by right-wingers.
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Old 10-28-2019, 11:02 AM
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Your wrong because your belief system is not based on evidence.
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Old 10-28-2019, 11:04 AM
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It's very simple : Republicans put party before country (and, as of late, Trump weeeeell before party) ; therefore they assume the same is true of everyone else, ergo Democrats must put harming Trump well before party, itself leagues ahead of country.

It's of course demonstrably wrong, but it's easy to follow.
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Old 10-28-2019, 11:04 AM
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LAZombie would probably have been delighted if one of Obama's military actions got sabotaged by right-wingers.
Fuck that noise, don't be as bad as him. As shitty as his post was I'm not going to accuse him of rooting for America to fail.
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Old 10-28-2019, 11:15 AM
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You know all those times when Trump says something ridiculously false, and so clearly made-up that you ask yourself what kind of weak-minded simpleton could possibly be gullible enough to fall for such obvious horseshit?

Well, you have your answer.
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Old 10-28-2019, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by steronz View Post
LAZombie posts this hot nonsense:
...
I mean, what the fuck?
You can't fix that. That is based on noting that has ever happened. All you can do is make a note to self about who said it, and remember that.
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Old 10-28-2019, 11:23 AM
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And just how would they do that? Is the implication that the DNC has a hot line to ISIS?
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Old 10-28-2019, 11:30 AM
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And just how would they do that? Is the implication that the DNC has a hot line to ISIS?
The reason for shit stirring is to stir shit-it doesn't need logic and/or reason. The first post in this thread is the exact response he wanted.
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Old 10-28-2019, 11:49 AM
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Y'all say "Oh, nothing like this has ever happened", but what about the Bowling Green Massacre? Surely y'all haven't forgotten the Bowling Green Massacre?!? (Never forget!) And how Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez blabbed classified information to the Failing New York Times and the Fake News Washington Post which prevented our brave Special Forces guys from preventing that awful, awful tragedy back in January of '17. Never forget!



OK, smart-assery aside, I'm really not sure what the answer to the question posed in the OP is. My best guess is that the Democrats need to beat Trump like a rented mule next year, and inflict major losses to the Republicans in Congress and at every level of government--a real Presidential landslide, with large coattails. And then Hypothetical Democratic 46th President of the United States of America has to be sufficiently popular (and therefore competent and effective, and also politically savvy) to prevent the Republicans from roaring back in the '22 mid-terms the way they did in 2010. (Which will necessarily also involve the Democratic Party electorate getting off its collective ass and actually showing up for a mid-term election in sufficient numbers.)

And I also admit I haven't seen any evidence that the Democrats are going to manage to pull any of that off. They may--may--beat Donald fucking Trump next year, but only just by holding the "blue states" and taking back enough of the "purple states". When they ought, by all reason, to be poised to sweep all the "purple states" and start flipping a bunch of the softer "red states".

Just to be clear, if everything in my fantasy were to come true--President Pete Buttigieg taking Texas or some crazy shit like that--there would still be idiots like LAZombie out there (For ye have the damned fools always with you), but if the Republican Party experiences enough pain (or not even enough pain, given the damage they've inflicted on the country, but a large amount of pain) then it will cease to be politically profitable to pander to the bigots, xenophobes, mindless haters, conspiracy-mongers, beady-eyed religious loons, "culture warriors", and other deplorables who walk among us, at least for a few generations.
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Old 10-28-2019, 11:57 AM
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It's a fucking cult, and it's a very real threat. You can't cajole, convince, browbeat, or ANYthing with them.
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Old 10-28-2019, 12:26 PM
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Old 10-28-2019, 12:35 PM
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Fuck that noise, don't be as bad as him. As shitty as his post was I'm not going to accuse him of rooting for America to fail.
You're right, and I knew this as I clicked Submit.

I just get so sick of the right-wing imbecility, lies and hatred that I lash out. I apologize to you and the Board's other rational thinkers. I won't apologize to the scumbags.
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Old 10-28-2019, 01:11 PM
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The sad thing is that LAZombie's position is all too common among Trumpers. They really believe "their" president has done nothing wrong, and it's all a left wing plot to discredit him/steal power/otherwise accomplish nefarious things. People like that will not listen to reason, and they reject any information that doesn't fit with their peculiar world view. I dunno how you fight that level of willful dumbassery.
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Old 10-28-2019, 01:14 PM
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The sad thing is that LAZombie's position is all too common among Trumpers. They really believe "their" president has done nothing wrong, and it's all a left wing plot to discredit him/steal power/otherwise accomplish nefarious things. People like that will not listen to reason, and they reject any information that doesn't fit with their peculiar world view. I dunno how you fight that level of willful dumbassery.
Start winning elections ?
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Old 10-28-2019, 01:16 PM
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The sad thing is that LAZombie's position is all too common among Trumpers. They really believe "their" president has done nothing wrong, and it's all a left wing plot to discredit him/steal power/otherwise accomplish nefarious things. People like that will not listen to reason, and they reject any information that doesn't fit with their peculiar world view. I dunno how you fight that level of willful dumbassery.
I think LAZombie's position is that it doesn't matter if Trump does wrong because the only "right" is winning. Fucking over enemies is winning. Getting away with it is winning. Not going to jail is winning. Pissing people off is winning. Not having to hide hate with the thinnest veneer of decency is winning.
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Old 10-28-2019, 01:18 PM
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There is no fixing it. Instead of worshiping a golden calf, the cult worships an orange jackass. This cult of personality is every bit as extreme as the cult of Kim in North Korea. Actually, it's worse because North Koreans have no resources for objective truth, the MAGAbots have the resources but refuse to use them. I'm afraid that deprogramming the cult is nearly impossible, the only cure for most will be embalming fluid.
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Old 10-28-2019, 01:21 PM
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I think LAZombie's position is that it doesn't matter if Trump does wrong because the only "right" is winning. Fucking over enemies is winning. Getting away with it is winning. Not going to jail is winning. Pissing people off is winning. Not having to hide hate with the thinnest veneer of decency is winning.
And that mindset just boggles my mind. It's as if almost everything I've believed my entire life is irrelevant. Honor, integrity, honesty....none of that shit matters anymore. The world has passed me by. I'm a dinosaur, and my killer asteroid is long overdue....
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Old 10-28-2019, 01:30 PM
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Who, or what, is LAZombie? Is that a poster here, or something?
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Old 10-28-2019, 01:32 PM
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It's very simple : Republicans put party before country (and, as of late, Trump weeeeell before party) ; therefore they assume the same is true of everyone else, ergo Democrats must put harming Trump well before party, itself leagues ahead of country.

It's of course demonstrably wrong, but it's easy to follow.
Republicans of today would argue that they are using the political system to their advantage, and that the Democrats would do, and have done, the same thing when they're in power. There's a shred of truth to that; however, Democratic interests are more concerned with distribution of wealth and power, whereas Republicans seek the concentration of these resources. A related point is that the concentration of wealth and power is an undemocratic idea, as it promotes the politics of competition, with victors receiving the spoils and then deciding how whatever's left will be distributed.

I think there has always been and always be a class of people that favors competition over cooperation, and promotes greed over fairness. What has changed in my lifetime is that the generations of people who lived in a world based more so on the value of cooperation, having lived through the searing experiences of the Great Depression and WWII, are now gone. In their place are generations of people who've grown up with abundance and who consequently value cooperation less than their predecessors.

Republicans are probably not the majority in terms of the marketplace of ideas, but they stopped competing on that battlefield a while ago; they're concerned with power for the sake of having it.
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Old 10-28-2019, 01:39 PM
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There is no fixing it. Instead of worshiping a golden calf, the cult worships an orange jackass. This cult of personality is every bit as extreme as the cult of Kim in North Korea. Actually, it's worse because North Koreans have no resources for objective truth, the MAGAbots have the resources but refuse to use them. I'm afraid that deprogramming the cult is nearly impossible, the only cure for most will be embalming fluid.
There are systemic problems that go well beyond just Trump though. We're a nation that believes way too much of the bullshit that we see on TV or whatever comes across our news feed. Most people in this society hate learning anything unless it's "practical," which seems innocuous on the surface, but is problematic in terms of understanding how this self-governance thing is supposed to work.

I agree: I really don't think we're going to fix it this time. That doesn't mean we won't ever eventually fix it, and it doesn't mean we shouldn't try. But we are about to experience what a failed democracy looks like, and it's not a pretty sight. If we think that norms have been violated now, well, wait. We've seen nothing.
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Old 10-28-2019, 01:39 PM
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Who, or what, is LAZombie? Is that a poster here, or something?
He's either a zombie from Los Angeles, or a particularly lazy such creature (or both).

He's also one of those trollish types who's sole apparent interest in this board is facilitate insulting people he disagrees with politically.

Last edited by El_Kabong; 10-28-2019 at 01:41 PM.
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Old 10-28-2019, 01:47 PM
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Who, or what, is LAZombie? Is that a poster here, or something?
To put a fine point on it, check out the OP, which has a direct quote from the poster in question.

I mean, it's not a terrible idea looking at the first post of a thread, especially one that hasn't gone multi-page yet.
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Old 10-28-2019, 01:47 PM
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And that mindset just boggles my mind. It's as if almost everything I've believed my entire life is irrelevant. Honor, integrity, honesty....none of that shit matters anymore. The world has passed me by. I'm a dinosaur, and my killer asteroid is long overdue....
Those are the values of fair play, of cooperation, of living beside one another with a certain degree of implicit equality. That's not how Republicans of today think, which is not to say that there was some golden age when everything was harmonious. Generations will always struggle to find the right balance. But there were institutional checks and balances that existed to promote fair play and to curb abuses of power, and you could get at least some right wingers to understand the value of peace and tranquility, if nothing else.

Now? Forget it. They don't even seem to care about peace and tranquility, either, as evidenced by some of their references to "second civil wars" and other statements to that effect.

But I don't see this getting better, and I think ordinary people need to be thinking about what comes next. In what universe did any of us think that we'd live to see a time when Vladimir Putin would be briefed on a planned secret raid before the members of the House intel committee and the Speaker. That is a jaw-dropping story if true, and I don't have reason to doubt that it is. It is the perfect example of how the executive branch is essentially saying that it intends to overpower the legislative, and if it can do that, particularly with the one mechanism of federal power that relies upon direct democratic influence, well then there you have it. American Democracy: 1776 - 2019.
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Old 10-28-2019, 01:50 PM
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There are systemic problems that go well beyond just Trump though. We're a nation that believes way too much of the bullshit that we see on TV or whatever comes across our news feed. Most people in this society hate learning anything unless it's "practical," which seems innocuous on the surface, but is problematic in terms of understanding how this self-governance thing is supposed to work.

I agree: I really don't think we're going to fix it this time. That doesn't mean we won't ever eventually fix it, and it doesn't mean we shouldn't try. But we are about to experience what a failed democracy looks like, and it's not a pretty sight. If we think that norms have been violated now, well, wait. We've seen nothing.
I think a lot of the problem now is that there are now too many sources of news and many of those sources do not follow journalistic standards, have biases, or just plain lie. Joe Sixpack gets outraged when he reads Facebook memes about migrants getting $3854 per month from the government or Muslims trying to bring Sharia law to the US or kids no longer saying the pledge of allegiance in school. None of these things are true, but that no longer matters. They vote based on how they feel even if these feelings have no basis in fact. How we get Americans to stop believing the constant stream of lies that parade in front of their eyeballs constantly is a challenge that perhaps cannot be met.
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Old 10-28-2019, 02:00 PM
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I think a lot of the problem now is that there are now too many sources of news and many of those sources do not follow journalistic standards, have biases, or just plain lie. Joe Sixpack gets outraged when he reads Facebook memes about migrants getting $3854 per month from the government or Muslims trying to bring Sharia law to the US or kids no longer saying the pledge of allegiance in school. None of these things are true, but that no longer matters. They vote based on how they feel even if these feelings have no basis in fact. How we get Americans to stop believing the constant stream of lies that parade in front of their eyeballs constantly is a challenge that perhaps cannot be met.
We live in a world in which information is highly decentralized, which can be advantageous in some circumstances, but disadvantageous in others. One problem is that consensus can be harder to come by. I don't mean that we should realistically aim to achieve political and cultural consensus on specific issues, but there ought to be a solid majority of people who trust in the process and trust that the other person isn't out to undermine the process and institutions.

We can see the strategy employed by our international adversaries: use misinformation to cast doubt on our processes and institutions. More ominously, they're using misinformation as a way of getting Americans to question their own value system - questioning whether immigration, diversity, equality, and democratic civic participation are all values that we should embrace. I don't think card carrying Republicans are the only ones who are susceptible to misinformation campaigns, and I'd submit that independents and hardcore progressive ideologues can be influenced by misinformation as well.
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Old 10-29-2019, 05:52 AM
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What makes the recent random anger from Trumpists especially bizarre is that Trump's raw criminality has come into full view. Only the most obstinate or partisan can fail to acknowledge it now.

Right-wingers, Trumpists and Republicans don't try to defend Trump's crimes, or even mention them. Instead they lash out randomly like frenzied imbeciles: "Fake fake. You too. Blah blah." If they had the IQ of a cockroach they'd admit that their boy did wrong (and the rational thinkers here would applaud), but they lack the moral gumption, or intelligence, to even do that.
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Old 10-29-2019, 01:22 PM
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What makes the recent random anger from Trumpists especially bizarre is that Trump's raw criminality has come into full view. Only the most obstinate or partisan can fail to acknowledge it now.

Right-wingers, Trumpists and Republicans don't try to defend Trump's crimes, or even mention them. Instead they lash out randomly like frenzied imbeciles: "Fake fake. You too. Blah blah." If they had the IQ of a cockroach they'd admit that their boy did wrong (and the rational thinkers here would applaud), but they lack the moral gumption, or intelligence, to even do that.
I think Trumpists have known all along that Trump is a criminal according to the letter of the law, and not just a "Oh I forgot to report this donation" or "I lied to an agent about getting my mistress pregnant" kinda criminal but a blatant thug -- I think they've always known that. I think they purposely apply two standards because their worldview is premised on the notion of supremacy. In their minds, there's a hierarchy, a food chain - and they're on top. Anything and anyone that challenges the notion of supremacy is illegitimate, which in turn justifies behavior such as lying and criminality in pursuit of wealth and power. Don't try to interpret their words and deeds based on facts; understand it in terms of the supremacy of their worldview, which holds that they are superior and that as superior beings, they have the right to disregard any of the conventions that would potentially be used to demonstrate that they are somehow short of supreme.

There is no other way to explain how they can put yellow ribbon stickers on their SUVs along side the ones that say Trump 2020.
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Old 10-29-2019, 01:45 PM
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What makes the recent random anger from Trumpists especially bizarre is that Trump's raw criminality has come into full view.
They DON'T CARE.
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Old 10-29-2019, 02:14 PM
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They DON'T CARE.
It's amazing how many people still don't believe this.

Are my taxes lower? Are there conservatives on the SC? My guns safe? Liberals crying? Good - I don't care what the President does.
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Old 10-29-2019, 02:21 PM
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Start winning elections ?
Well, let's see: we handily won elections in 2008 and 2012 -- well above the margin where an electoral fluke would put the loser into the Oval Office -- and the willful dumbassery reached epic proportions.

Got any other bright ideas, Professor?
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Old 10-29-2019, 02:26 PM
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The worst part is, LAZombie probably lives in like Redlands or some other dump which he passes off as being "LA."
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Old 10-29-2019, 02:30 PM
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Who, or what, is LAZombie? Is that a poster here, or something?
Twoofer.
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Old 10-29-2019, 02:33 PM
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Well, let's see: we handily won elections in 2008 and 2012 -- well above the margin where an electoral fluke would put the loser into the Oval Office -- and the willful dumbassery reached epic proportions.

Got any other bright ideas, Professor?
Sadly, no.
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Old 10-29-2019, 02:41 PM
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It's amazing how many people still don't believe this.

Are my taxes lower? Are there conservatives on the SC? My guns safe? Liberals crying? Good - I don't care what the President does.
It's actually worse than that - they like that he's a criminal, because they approve of him getting away with shit. They'd like to get away with shit, so they like seeing their heroes do it. And it pisses off the liberals when the republicans get away with murder, so they get to see liberal tears, too. And honestly, what's the big deal if Trump uses his office for political gain and sells the country off to the highest bidding hostile foreign power? It's what they'd do in his shoes.

Now, not all conservatives will see things this way - but all Trumpers will. Simply by virtue of the fact that if they were bothered by any of this, they wouldn't be pro-Trump.
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Old 10-29-2019, 02:50 PM
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Thanks. I honestly didn't recognize that name and thought maybe it was a blog or something from the intertubes.
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Old 10-29-2019, 05:58 PM
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Meanwhile, looks like we're getting pretty perilously close to Charles Sumner and Preston Brooks time.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/29/polit...ity/index.html

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Democrats and Republicans got into a shouting match behind closed doors on Tuesday while interviewing a witness in the impeachment investigation, with Democrats accusing Republicans of trying to out the anonymous whistleblower who sparked the impeachment inquiry, according to five sources from both parties.
Won't be long before reps start coming to blows.
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Old 10-29-2019, 05:58 PM
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Joe Sixpack gets outraged when he reads Facebook memes about migrants getting $3854 per month from the government or Muslims trying to bring Sharia law to the US or kids no longer saying the pledge of allegiance in school. None of these things are true, but that no longer matters. They vote based on how they feel even if these feelings have no basis in fact. How we get Americans to stop believing the constant stream of lies that parade in front of their eyeballs constantly is a challenge that perhaps cannot be met.
Substitute America for Australia, and it's identical to what is happening here downunder. Scomo (our PM, Scott Morrison) has borrowed the Trump and Repub play book, and using toxic politics to scare the population into a position of fear and loathing of anyone 'different'. It's scary and it's nauseating, but I don't see the opposition party getting a foothold in govt any time soon.
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Old 10-29-2019, 06:21 PM
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LAZombie posts this hot nonsense:



I mean, what the fuck?
Really. What the fuck.
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Old 10-29-2019, 06:23 PM
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Who, or what, is LAZombie? Is that a poster here, or something?
Some kind of ass cancer? I dunno.
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Old 10-29-2019, 06:25 PM
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Meanwhile, looks like we're getting pretty perilously close to Charles Sumner and Preston Brooks time.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/29/polit...ity/index.html



Won't be long before reps start coming to blows.
Legalize duels. After a few killings, we'll se a lot more courtesy and we'll also see who REALLY believes in what they say (and if they have the stones to back it up).
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Old 10-29-2019, 06:28 PM
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Legalize duels. After a few killings, we'll se a lot more courtesy and we'll also see who REALLY believes in what they say (and if they have the stones to back it up).
Yeah right, like the snowflakes would show up.
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Old 10-29-2019, 06:33 PM
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Yeah right, like the snowflakes would show up.
It would be interesting to see which side would shit themselves and run away, and which side would be chasing them. Remember, a lot of those Dems are former military, while a lot of those Repub "hawks" were Viet Nam draft dodgers and had urrrrrr durrrr bone spurs or other excuses.
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Old 10-31-2019, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by octopus View Post
Start winning elections ?
If I'm not mistaken, and I may well be, Oakminster identifies as a Republican, or conservative. (My apologies to Oakminster if I'm wrong on that.)

What elections are you suggesting he should win, and in what way?

Or, y'know, rather than just play like the current situation is the Democrats' fault for losing to Trump, maybe provide either some constructive suggestions on the fighting of such "wilful dumbassery" as is being pitted, or offer some expression of commiseration. Or heck, even a reasoned rebuttal.

Otherwise it kinda' looks like you're just here to drink Liberal Tears and goad people.
  #45  
Old 10-31-2019, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Not Carlson View Post
If I'm not mistaken, and I may well be, Oakminster identifies as a Republican, or conservative. (My apologies to Oakminster if I'm wrong on that.)

.
Definitely not a Republican. I stopped identifying that way when Bush the Younger took us into an unnecessary war.

Conservative? By the standards of this board, yes, I'm pretty conservative. In reality, I'm a moderate with libertarian tendencies.
  #46  
Old 11-01-2019, 02:19 PM
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I can't find the thread, but LAZombie was very excited a coupla months ago about some new evidence that the WTC was brought down by explosives, not jets crashing into them. Just to give an idea of the kind of intellect we're dealing with.
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Last edited by Akaj; 11-01-2019 at 02:19 PM.
  #47  
Old 11-01-2019, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by kambuckta View Post
Substitute America for Australia, and it's identical to what is happening here downunder. Scomo (our PM, Scott Morrison) has borrowed the Trump and Repub play book, and using toxic politics to scare the population into a position of fear and loathing of anyone 'different'. It's scary and it's nauseating, but I don't see the opposition party getting a foothold in govt any time soon.
Itís happening all over the world. In the western world, to name a few, there is Hungary (Orban), the UK (Johnson and Brexit), and in others where those forces are gaining power but have not yet succeeded like in Germany, France, and Canada as shown by their recent election. Of course since this seems to be a fundamental flaw of (some) humans which does not discriminate by race, itís found in lots of other countries around the world as well. Off the top of my head thereís India, Brazil, the Philippines, Turkey, and of course the twin pillars that foment this in the rest of the world, Russia and China.
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