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  #51  
Old 01-24-2020, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
When "people in the administration" like Bill Taylor say things, that is not evidence; that is simply their opinion. And many of these people are Never Trumpers.
So testimony that implicates Trump is only acceptable from pro-Trumpers, but we know Bill Taylor is a never Trumper because his testimony implicates Trump.

That's some catch that catch 22.
  #52  
Old 01-24-2020, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
When "people in the administration" like Bill Taylor say things, that is not evidence; that is simply their opinion. And many of these people are Never Trumpers.
Never Trumpers who donated a million dollars to the Trump inaugural committee (which then made its way into Trump's personal wallet)?

You must have a pretty loose definition of Never Trumper.

Last edited by Buck Godot; 01-24-2020 at 02:25 PM.
  #53  
Old 01-24-2020, 04:31 PM
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Dead issue. Lindsay Graham will not support a Hunter Biden subpoena:

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/...f-hunter-biden
  #54  
Old 01-24-2020, 04:32 PM
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Duplicate.

Last edited by UltraVires; 01-24-2020 at 04:33 PM.
  #55  
Old 01-24-2020, 05:29 PM
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Dead issue. Lindsay Graham will not support a Hunter Biden subpoena
Called it.

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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
Republican calls to investigate Biden are no different than their calls to lock up Hillary. They're just empty noise. The Republicans have nothing to back it up. The Republicans can't to go to trial because at a trial, they'd be forced to show their hand and everyone would see they've been bluffing.

There's no evidence against Hunter Biden. There's no evidence against Joe Biden. There's no evidence against Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama. The Republicans are lying and lying and lying and lying. And they're going to keep on lying. Because there's no penalty for lying as long as they never have to enter a courtroom.
  #56  
Old 01-24-2020, 05:52 PM
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ETA: do you think George W Bush got into Harvard on his merits?


I thought W got in on a rowing scholarship.
  #57  
Old 01-24-2020, 07:33 PM
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I thought W got in on a rowing scholarship.
George W. Bush went to Yale, not Harvard, for his undergraduate degree (as did George H.W. Bush and Prescott Bush, and certainly that family history almost guaranteed him a place at Yale). As far as I know, there was no rowing scholarship involved, and I don't think Yale gives athetic scholarships anyway.

He completed an MBA degree at Harvard. Certainly the Bush name helped him with admissions, but a Yale degree would have helped, too (even one with a lackluster GPA). In any event, Harvard likes to admit the children of world leaders -- keeps Harvard in the middle of world affairs.
  #58  
Old 01-24-2020, 07:39 PM
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Joe Biden is very paternalistic and will get wound up seeing his son get besmirched in someone else's trial.
  #59  
Old 01-24-2020, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
When "people in the administration" like Bill Taylor say things, that is not evidence; that is simply their opinion. And many of these people are Never Trumpers.

But put that aside. We don't allow opinion evidence in criminal or civil trials because it is unreliable and ultimately meaningless. The only people's opinions who count are the jurors, in this case the senators.

If my neighbor is charged with murder, I can testify that I saw him come home at 2:30 a.m., dump a bag of trash in the bin, and sneak around the back of his house. What I cannot testify to is that "I think he must have just murdered someone." And why is that? Because I cannot substitute myself for the jury. I can tell them the who, what, where, and when, but my opinion does not mean anything.

So it really doesn't matter if you can pick out a few people who think they believe that they know what Trump was reaaaally doing. What matters is hard evidence which 100 senators will determine the meaning of.

And there is no hard evidence. Just inferences.
In criminal or civil trials; we donít allow the defendant to coordinate with the jurors, we donít tell the judge how the proceedings will occur, we donít let the jurors vote on evidence or witnesses, we donít allow the jurors to discuss the case with the media or other jurors. Why should we assume their rules of evidence?
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  #60  
Old 01-25-2020, 01:12 AM
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As far as I know, there was no rowing scholarship involved, and I don't think Yale gives ath[l]etic scholarships anyway.
Yale and the rest of the Ivy League schools give no athletic scholarships. However, they do let at least certain coaches give athletic endorsements which do not give automatic admission. It was revealed in the recent nationwide admission scandal that the women's soccer coach (who left Yale before the scandal broke) probably gave two fraudulent endorsements, and one of the two students was admitted before having the admission rescinded after the scandal broke.

I do not know if they gave athletic scholarships in the past when any Bush attended.
  #61  
Old 01-25-2020, 05:21 AM
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Never Trumpers who donated a million dollars to the Trump inaugural committee (which then made its way into Trump's personal wallet)?
Illegally made its way to Trump's personal wallet. (IANAL: Was this felony, misdemeanor, infraction, or just civil fraud?) Whatever law(s) were broken, some of this fraud is rather well documented I think. Why weren't some of these frauds included in the Articles of Impeachment?
  #62  
Old 01-25-2020, 08:36 AM
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I do not know if they gave athletic scholarships in the past when any Bush attended.
It would be weird if Harvard Business School gave Bush an athletic scholarship.
  #63  
Old 01-25-2020, 09:13 AM
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Also in the court of public opinion, it suggests the GOP might have a point, when in fact they do not. Getting additional witnesses is not going to help get Trump removed so better to make sure that the Republicans don't get to sell their lies.
This is probably the worst downside.

Even if the public isn't convinced that they do have a point, it introduces confusion, doubt, skepticism. The goal of an authoritarian's information warfare campaign isn't necessarily to persuade others that they're right; it's to gaslight people to the point where enough people give up and conclude that we'll never really know the truth. Authoritarians assault the idea of truth itself, not necessarily to get people to believe in lies but to fuck with their ability to differentiate between fact and fiction or to trust their own senses and sources of information.

It won't matter in terms of the outcome, as the Republicans will acquit Trump anyway. But the Democrats shouldn't play into their hands by contributing to the false notion that Biden is somehow a legitimate source of concern. It's Trump who is on trial, not Biden.
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