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  #51  
Old 12-04-2019, 05:37 PM
HMS Irruncible is online now
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If we're going to change laws, I would favor an incremental approach where we start by eliminating punishment for people desperate enough to sell sex. Leave the other penalties as they are (buying sex, pimping). Let's see how that goes and then course-correct from there.

One thing I'm always leery about, especially regarding legalization, is framing the sex trade as "sex work". That's problematic because it implies that prostitution is an occupation that people choose, when in reality for many it's their last and only resort to avoid destitution. If we're changing laws we shouldn't be furthering the commodification of sex, we should just be protecting the people who feel like that's their only option. The johns by definition are people who have power to compel sex, so they deserve no consideration.
  #52  
Old 12-04-2019, 05:38 PM
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Thanks again for your contributions, Banquet Bear.

The Amnesty position includes this:
Quote:
Legalization is different to decriminalization and it is not the model we are proposing.

Instead of the removal of laws criminalizing sex workers, legalization means the introduction of laws and policies specific to sex work to formally regulate it.

Amnesty is not opposed to legalization per se; but governments must make sure the system respects the human rights of sex workers.
As I mentioned above those uses of decriminalization and legalization seem sort of flip-flopped to me, but I'm on board with their overall point, so I'm not going to quibble with that. I was a member of Amnesty for years, and I generally respect both Amnesty and HRW, so their positions on the issues carry a fair amount of weight with me.

I started out this thread leaning toward the position that sex work should probably be normalized as any other service occupation, but not quite falling to that side of the fence. I think I'm pretty squarely on the decriminalize side now.
  #53  
Old 12-04-2019, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
But street prostitution in my city is a leading cause/indicator of more serious crimes.
Correlation is not causation, and you're not even sure if it's cause or effect at work here. So this opinion isn't worth anything.
  #54  
Old 12-04-2019, 05:46 PM
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Thank you Banquet Bear for the detailed answer.
  #55  
Old 12-04-2019, 08:30 PM
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Honestly I don't think legalized prostitution is much worse than porn and porn is not only legal, they have lobbyists.

Legalizing prostitution would drastically reduce one of the pillars of organized crime.

Legalizing prostitution would improve safety and health.

And it's not like you can't already earn money with your body through strip clubs, even without the prostitution.

On the other hand, I'm concerned about the unintended consequences. Can we try it in a place like Florida first so if we screw it up, it won't really make things much worse.
  #56  
Old 12-05-2019, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
Correlation is not causation
Doesn't matter. Under broken windows (called "Quality of life enforcement" here) all violations are enforced to maximum extent.

Instead of being shooed away or issued municipal cites trespassers, loiterers, winos drinking in public, petty drug offenses, etc. are arrested and charged in circuit court, with jail time being the penalty. When the smaller violators are prosecuted in a given area it provides disincentive for the worser elements to appear. This method works whether you like it or not. It swiftly cleaned up quite a few neighborhoods that had gone downhill.

When there was a regime change at D.A.s office regarding prosecutions of petty offenses and this policy was stopped is when scenarios like I posted earlier happen. Incrementally but quickly neighborhoods go to shit and only then do the pols want something done about it. By then it becomes pointless tail chasing.

I don't see the tyranny in mandating legal prostitution be done at a permanent brick and mortar location.

Last edited by pkbites; 12-05-2019 at 12:47 AM.
  #57  
Old 12-05-2019, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
If we're going to change laws, I would favor an incremental approach where we start by eliminating punishment for people desperate enough to sell sex. Leave the other penalties as they are (buying sex, pimping). Let's see how that goes and then course-correct from there.

One thing I'm always leery about, especially regarding legalization, is framing the sex trade as "sex work". That's problematic because it implies that prostitution is an occupation that people choose, when in reality for many it's their last and only resort to avoid destitution. If we're changing laws we shouldn't be furthering the commodification of sex, we should just be protecting the people who feel like that's their only option. The johns by definition are people who have power to compel sex, so they deserve no consideration.
Do you feel that selling sex is inherently a low status occupation? Because an alternative explanation is that selling sex is a low status occupation because it's illegal.
  #58  
Old 12-05-2019, 01:57 AM
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Do you feel that selling sex is inherently a low status occupation? Because an alternative explanation is that selling sex is a low status occupation because it's illegal.
I don't think it's a low status occupation. I think many of the people who get into it may be low lifes whether it's legal or not, but one could say that about several different career choices.

What it is, though, is a vice, like gambling, smoking, pot use, and drinking. Therefore I think it should be legal but contained to be practiced only in certain places.

Last edited by pkbites; 12-05-2019 at 01:57 AM.
  #59  
Old 12-05-2019, 05:37 PM
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Do you feel that selling sex is inherently a low status occupation? Because an alternative explanation is that selling sex is a low status occupation because it's illegal.
Of course it is. Not because it's illegal, but because it implies a woman has no marketable skills, knowledge or expertise other than using her body for sex.

I mean no one says "I hope my daughter grows up to be the world's greatest prostitute".
  #60  
Old 12-05-2019, 05:48 PM
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Of course it is. Not because it's illegal, but because it implies a woman has no marketable skills, knowledge or expertise other than using her body for sex.

I mean no one says "I hope my daughter grows up to be the world's greatest prostitute".
I think it's more the other way around - because it's low-status many women have avoided it unless they had no other option. (Or no choice at all.)

I think the actual reason it's low-status is the obvious one - religious moralizing and jealousy. No wife likes the prostitute their husband is visiting, which makes the prostitute unpopular, which makes it easy to paint their behavior as immoral - and thus, low-status.
  #61  
Old 12-06-2019, 02:24 AM
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Of course it is. Not because it's illegal, but because it implies a woman has no marketable skills, knowledge or expertise other than using her body for sex.
If prostitution were legal and safe, and well paying, I can imagine women with marketable skills who could make more money that way than the traditional way. I suspect the women who have rich people as clients could do other stuff also.
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I mean no one says "I hope my daughter grows up to be the world's greatest prostitute".
If we had a majority religion which made sex a sacrament, you probably would have lots of people saying this.
  #62  
Old 12-06-2019, 03:03 AM
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Of course it is. Not because it's illegal, but because it implies a woman has no marketable skills, knowledge or expertise other than using her body for sex.
That seems to be begging the question. You're saying it's a low status profession because nobody would work in it if they had an alternative. And you're saying the people who work in this profession must have no alternative because nobody would choose to work in such a low status profession if they did.

I feel that some women might choose to work as prostitutes even if they had reasonable alternatives. Legal prostitutes in Nevada can make several hundred dollars for an hour of work. I feel there are women who would feel that working eight hours a week as a prostitute is better than working forty hours a week in an office job for less money.
  #63  
Old 12-06-2019, 03:23 AM
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Prostitution is generally a low-status occupation, even in societies where it is pefectly legal. Theyre may be exceptions, but they tend to be just that - exceptions.

And I don't think we should treat status and legality as independent variables. Sex work is legally restricted in the US in part because it attracts considerable moral disapprobation. That's not going to disappear if sex work is legalised. And we observe that currently legal forms of sex work - for example, working as a stripper - are still low status occupations in the US.
  #64  
Old 12-06-2019, 05:07 AM
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...from the Impact of the Prostitution Reform Act by Abel, Fitzgerald and Brunton:

https://www.otago.ac.nz/christchurch/otago018607.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by From page 92
Benefits and disadvantages of working in the sex industry.

Very few participants reported that they had not benefited in some way from working in the sex industry. The main benefits indicated by survey participants were the fact they had survived, had made new friends and made more money working in the sex industry.

...

Many participants from all sectors, but especially the private sector, enjoyed the contact that they had with most clients as well as the sex.

...

In the qualitative interviews, participants all discussed benefits they experienced from working in the sex industry. These benefits included flexibility and freedom in the workplace, learning new workplace skills, meeting a variety of people and experiencing a sense of belonging.

Participants who worked in the private sector and on the streets described having independence and the ability to be one's own boss as positive features of the industry. Those who worked in the street sector described the camaraderie of workers as a major benefit of working.

Participants who worked in the managed sector described many benefits of working in the sex industry including the flexibility it provided around childcare commitments, the ability to acquire new skills such as in management and book keeping, the ability to save money, meet people and make friends.

Participants also described some of the negative aspects of working in the sex industry. Descriptions of the negative aspects included continuing stigma and harassment from the general public to street-based workers, safety issues for all sex workers, the health consequences of shift work and inequitable work environments experienced by some in the managed sector. Some participants also discussed the temptations of activities on the fringes of the sex industry such as drugs and alcohol.
It should be no secret why sex work is considered a "low status occupation." People call them "whores." "Street slags." Can you think of any other occupation where that could happen and most people wouldn't care?

It isn't because they have no "marketable skills, knowledge or expertise other than using her body for sex". Some of the people I know who worked in the industry were really fucking smart. The reasons why people enter the sex industry are varied, the reasons why they stay in the industry are varied, there is much much more to it than "they are all desperate."
  #65  
Old 12-06-2019, 05:56 AM
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I mean no one says "I hope my daughter grows up to be the world's greatest prostitute".
I take it you've never seen Gigi.
  #66  
Old 12-06-2019, 07:44 AM
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It should be no secret why sex work is considered a "low status occupation." People call them "whores." "Street slags." Can you think of any other occupation where that could happen and most people wouldn't care?
Cops, attorneys, used car salesmen? Many occupations have their detractors.

At no time did I use derogatory words towards all sex workers. But if you had to deal with the 3TC's I have, the ones that bring crime, disease, and disorder to residential communities and business neighborhoods, you probably would not have much respect for them.

Over the next decade Americans will overwhelmingly be more comfortable with marijuana being legal in far more places than it is now. The next frontier will be legalized prostitution, and I endorse that. But no way are our citizens going to accept unregulated, unlicensed, no medical test required prostitution. And no way are they going to support street hookers everywhere. If someone pushing legalization uses your all or nothing approach, that is exactly what they'll get: Nothing!
  #67  
Old 12-06-2019, 02:19 PM
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But no way are our citizens going to accept unregulated, unlicensed, no medical test required prostitution. And no way are they going to support street hookers everywhere. If someone pushing legalization uses your all or nothing approach, that is exactly what they'll get: Nothing!
I'm too lazy to pick through all the other posts in this thread to see if somebody else actually said or implied that they wanted this, so I'll just say that this really smells like a strawman to me.
  #68  
Old 12-06-2019, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
Cops, attorneys, used car salesmen? Many occupations have their detractors.
...yet I don't recall you calling used car salesman "whores" in this thread.

Quote:
At no time did I use derogatory words towards all sex workers.
Indeed. You reserved it for the most vulnerable of sex worker.

Quote:
But if you had to deal with the 3TC's I have, the ones that bring crime, disease, and disorder to residential communities and business neighborhoods, you probably would not have much respect for them.
Can you imagine what it would like walking the streets in your neighbourhood? Imagine what it would be like to be attacked, assaulted, or raped in your jurisdiction if you were a street waker. Would you report that crime to the police? The same police that calls you a "whore", a "street slag", that accuses you of bringing crime and disease? Just to remind everyone you didn't just use the words "whore" and "street slag", you said they were jargon. Commonly used. Its how you define them. The police department you represent see absolutely nothing wrong with calling sex workers "whores" and "street slags" as a matter of routine.

You are exactly the sort of person that Georgina Byers talked about in her speech, and you represent a law enforcement model that is toxic and harmful that advocates for harsher punishments for some of the most vulnerable people in your society.

Quote:
Over the next decade Americans will overwhelmingly be more comfortable with marijuana being legal in far more places than it is now.
The hypocrisy of a country that will happily send people to jail for life for marijuana crimes on the one hand while giving millionaire moguls the keys to the kingdom is noted, and is precisely what needs to be avoided in the move to decriminalise sex work.

Quote:
The next frontier will be legalized prostitution, and I endorse that. But no way are our citizens going to accept unregulated, unlicensed, no medical test required prostitution.
Bits of this are a strawman, and bit of this is simply argument from ignorance. The sex industry is not unregulated here. If you run a brothel you are required to have a licence, but if you work on your own or with a couple of friends then you do not need a certificate to operate. And we don't require medical testing because there is zero evidence that it has any impact on the health of either sex workers or their clients. That's evidence based decision-making that has been backed up by 16 years of real-world data.

Quote:
And no way are they going to support street hookers everywhere. If someone pushing legalization uses your all or nothing approach, that is exactly what they'll get: Nothing!
Its not an "all or nothing" approach. Its an evidence-based approach based on the harm-reduction model that when implemented in New Zealand saw the number of street walkers drop dramatically. It wasn't a decision based on a whim, based on an "all or nothing" ideology. I won't pretend that America would be able to perfectly duplicate what we did here, and I can imagine an America that decriminalised sex work in a manner that put restrictions on street walkers.

But harsher punishments on street walkers misses the point. Its needlessly punitive against a group of people that have very little options. Throwing them in jail doesn't help. The study by Abel, Fitzgerald and Brunton I cited earlier goes looks into the reasons why (in New Zealand) streetwalkers choose to both start walking the streets and why they continue to walk the streets. Harsher punishment won't change those reasons. They cite camaraderie with other workers as one of the main reasons why they stay on the street. A society that thinks they deserve to get locked up is a society that they won't want to be a part of. Its a cycle. You reject them, you insult them, you treat them like filth, you throw them in jail. They will reject you, they will hide from you, they will bond with the people that accept them, the cycle will continue.

If your argument is that Americans won't accept this because they are too ignorant to accept evidence based proposals that wouldn't surprise me: just look at universal healthcare, just look at gun laws. But that doesn't need to be the case. Education can work. You need to listen to and amplify the voices of sex workers and not the people who want to call them slurs and want to throw them in jail.
  #69  
Old 12-07-2019, 06:10 AM
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When one considers that there is no term for a promiscuous man, and that men who have sex with different women frequently are considered 'studs', the idea of legalizing prostitution seems unfeasible. As long as a double standard exists that classes women as 'sluts' when they act like men, we will have strong resistance to legalizing sex between consenting adults for money. Morality is a thin facade for abusive and exploitative behavior. Christianity has a long history of sexual repression, being one of the primary forces behind treating women as subhuman.

Sexuality must be separated from religious beliefs, and dealt with as something flexible, where the participants are the only ones to decide if they are being harmed.
  #70  
Old Yesterday, 03:00 PM
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Legalize it, but access by prescription only. So the health insurance will cover it.
  #71  
Old Yesterday, 03:27 PM
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legalize
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