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  #101  
Old 02-15-2019, 02:41 PM
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Mostly, that they're tired of watching other liberals play into the stereotype that we get upset over inconsequential and/or imaginary slights, particularly when it gives conservatives cover to dismiss instances of genuinely insulting terminology as left-wing over-sensitivity.
Whatever, snowflake. (winky face)
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  #102  
Old 02-15-2019, 03:03 PM
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I actually agree that some people probably have no ill intent in using "Democrat" as an adjective. Which is why I might make a little request that they use the correct form, just in case they were unaware of it. No big deal, and no big deal to ask folks to use the correct form.
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  #103  
Old 02-15-2019, 03:45 PM
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I think Muslim Congresswoman, Ilhan Omar is, was, and will be anti-Semitic. People like Ilhan Omar can be as critical of Israel, and Jews, as much as they chose to be. Maybe the voters will take notice next time? Of course, she will always have the opportunity to apologize for her statements when it's politically expedient for her to do so. Her apology would have been more believable if Ilhan Omar had just said that she was sorry she had been caught being anti-Semitic.
You've been warned, fairly recently, in fact, for bringing up someone's ethnicity to troll the thread in question. The same type of behavior is being demonstrated here, and thus, another warning for trolling is being issued.
  #104  
Old 02-15-2019, 04:37 PM
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emphasis mine
Is the bolded sentence from Omar or Jackmannii?

So if I support any country other than the USA I'm a traitor?
It was my comment in reference to Greenwald's tweet about "defending a foreign nation even if it means attacking free speech rights of Americans."* (a comment that Omar responded to and evidently endorsed).

I got it a bit muddled in that I read it initially as a comment about undefined Americans rather than U.S. political leaders who are engaged in "defending a foreign nation". It's been a common and nasty trope that when Americans (notably Jews) support or defend Israel, they're guilty of "divided loyalties" or even "disloyalty" (similar attacks are rarely made against Americans who urge support for other nations).

As for Omar's "apology" (which comes across as less than heartfelt), I think it's a matter of recognition that she's a novice Democratic representative whose political future is linked with financial and other support from the party, and so she'd better moderate her tone. In that sense, "it's all about the Benjamins, baby."

*there's a marked difference between criticizing someone's speech and trying to deny them free speech rights, which Greenwald has difficulty appreciating.
  #105  
Old 02-15-2019, 05:15 PM
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Whatever, snowflake. (winky face)
Well, thanks for your help in making it harder to convince people that using "gay" as a slur is a bad thing, I guess.
  #106  
Old 02-15-2019, 06:03 PM
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Well, thanks for your help in making it harder to convince people that using "gay" as a slur is a bad thing, I guess.
I don't understand.
  #107  
Old 02-15-2019, 06:08 PM
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I don't understand.
Well, as I had just said...

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...particularly when it gives conservatives cover to dismiss instances of genuinely insulting terminology as left-wing over-sensitivity.
  #108  
Old 02-15-2019, 06:10 PM
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Well, as I had just said...
I find that to be a "really stupid argument", but whatever.
  #109  
Old 02-15-2019, 07:28 PM
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Personally, I'm more concerned about politicians who use antisemitic language than stupid trolls who pull out the "derp derp, "democrat party, derp!", but that's just me.

At least, that's what I thought this whole thread was about.

And yes, criticism of Israel is legit, but a lot of people tend to use it as a dog whistle against Jews. Like, American Jews are automatically expected to have a certain of opinion or loyalty to Israel. They're constantly questioned about it. "How do you feel about Israel?"

Also, Omar supports the BDS movement -- which has many antisemitic elements. (It's also ineffective, as in some cases, such as SodaStream, Palestinians were the ones mostly affected)
  #110  
Old 02-16-2019, 11:32 PM
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What's the deal with the far right misstating the name of the party? To me, it just reflects badly on the person saying it.
I suspect it's unconscious for most people.
Democratic sound like an adjective. When referring to members of a political party, we use shorthand and call them by the name of the party. This works for Republicans, because that word sounds like a nouns. But talking about the other party,using Democratics just sounds wrong. Spell Check doesn't recognize that word.
  #111  
Old 02-16-2019, 11:43 PM
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Who gets to determine what is anti-Semitic and what isn't? If this statement doesn't sound anti-semitic to you, does it matter if you are Jewish or not? If you're not Jewish, how do you think it sounds to a Jew?
How do you think Jews might feel if someone who is not Jewish tells them what they can consider anti-Semitic and what they should just shrug off?

I hope this leads to a discussion.
  #112  
Old 02-17-2019, 02:28 AM
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('Anti-Semitic' is an unfortunate term, since Arabs are Semites. I'll use 'anti-Jewish' instead. And PLEASE note that this is distinct from anti-Israel or anti-Zionist.)
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Originally Posted by Guinastasia View Post
And yes, criticism of Israel is legit, but a lot of people tend to use it as a dog whistle against Jews. Like, American Jews are automatically expected to have a certain of opinion or loyalty to Israel. They're constantly questioned about it. "How do you feel about Israel?"

Also, Omar supports the BDS movement -- which has many antisemitic elements. (It's also ineffective, as in some cases, such as SodaStream, Palestinians were the ones mostly affected)
Was Omar using criticism of Israel an a dog whistle? I'd never heard of Omar until recently; if she's anti-Jewish call her out on it. In the searches and discussion nothing has turned up ... except "Well, some people who oppose illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank are also anti-Jewish.'

I remain curious whether "It's all about the Benjamins, baby" is anti-Jewish. That's the topic. We're not discussing comments we wish Omar had made so that we could say "There! See?"

If she had said "Some Congressmen receive large donations from pro-Likud groups," would that have been OK? Was it the flippancy in the rap-song lyric that has given so much offense?

So "Omar supports the BDS movement -- which has many antisemitic elements." Some of her detractors support the Republican Party which has many racist and white supremacist elements. Is every Republican a white supremacist?

(And what does 'BDS is ineffective' have to do with the topic? Is being an ineffective Jew-hater worse than being just a Jew-hater?)
  #113  
Old 02-17-2019, 02:52 AM
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('Anti-Semitic' is an unfortunate term, since Arabs are Semites. I'll use 'anti-Jewish' instead. And PLEASE note that this is distinct from anti-Israel or anti-Zionist.)
"Antisemitism" may be based on a historical inaccuracy, but it is the accepted term, and there's no reason not to use it. No-one has ever mistaken it to refer to the hatred of Semitic people in general. No offence, but as a rule, the only people who seem to have a problem with it are the people who don't have a problem with it, if you know what I mean.
  #114  
Old 02-17-2019, 04:46 AM
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... if you know what I mean.
No, I'm not sure I do know what you mean.

A comment was made that seemed to imply Omar might be anti-Palestinian. Some of the comments in this thread have become so very VERY confused, that I just wanted to be clear that any anti-Palestine allegation was outside the compass of the anti-Semitic allegation.
  #115  
Old 02-17-2019, 05:05 AM
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A comment was made that seemed to imply Omar might be anti-Palestinian. Some of the comments in this thread have become so very VERY confused, that I just wanted to be clear that any anti-Palestine allegation was outside the compass of the anti-Semitic allegation.
That goes without saying.

I'm sorry. It's just that in my experience, the only people who ever have a problem with the term "antisemitism", are antisemites. You may have inadvertently blown a dog whistle.
  #116  
Old 02-17-2019, 09:33 AM
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If I've across as some sort of Jew-hater in this thread, I think it's just one more example of political correctness run amok.

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I'm sorry. It's just that in my experience, the only people who ever have a problem with the term "antisemitism", are antisemites. You may have inadvertently blown a dog whistle.
Here's my first post regarding the Middle East dispute on this Board, from almost nine years ago. Dog whistling?

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The thread asks: When do we "cut off" right of title? Mexians aren't bombing us to get Texas back. Germans aren't bombing Poland to get their possessions there back. And Palestinians would be prospering if not for cynical Arab "leadership." (And do note, as others in the thread point out, that title to much of the disputed land was transferred to Israelis by Arabs.)

Gaza fires rockets into Israel to kill Israeli civilians and proudly gloats that it's at war, yet Israel is then condemned for asking an embargo-running ship to submit to inspection. Arab oil is dear, but anti-Semitism available very cheaply. Does that help clarify things for you?
  #117  
Old 02-17-2019, 09:54 AM
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Dude - chill. I haven’t accused you of anything. You’re one of the good guys.

All I said is that something you said accidentallt sounded similar to someting a bigot would say. If I were do do something like that myself, I’d like to know.
  #118  
Old 02-17-2019, 11:57 AM
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How do you think Jews might feel if someone who is not Jewish tells them what they can consider anti-Semitic and what they should just shrug off?
Telling members of an ethnic group that they shouldn't take offense at something (especially when this advice comes from a non-member of the group) is an all-time loser, when a substantial percentage of the group does find it objectionable. It's like telling black people they shouldn't see a statement or viewpoint as racist since intentions were innocent.*

*The medical journal Neurology has egg (or chicken) on its face over a now-retracted physician essay which was apparently intended to be a light-hearted article about unhealthy eating habits. "The piece, originally published online February 12, went on: "I once shared a table at a fried chicken fast food establishment with a nice African American lady. Immensely enjoying her fries, she sat with the shaker in one chubby fist and liberally salted each individual fry."'

The author, William Campbell semi-apologized about how it was unfortunate "some" took offense: "Campbell, an emeritus professor at the Uniformed Services University of Health Sciences and a retired colonel in the US Army, added: "It is unfortunate that sensibilities in our society now create an inability to transcend cultural barriers by telling true stories."

http://medscape.com/viewarticle/9091...NJIR0u05d02Cxw (link may not work for non-Medscape members).

Ooops.

Last edited by Jackmannii; 02-17-2019 at 12:00 PM.
  #119  
Old 02-17-2019, 08:05 PM
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*The medical journal Neurology has egg (or chicken) on its face over a now-retracted physician essay which was apparently intended to be a light-hearted article about unhealthy eating habits. "The piece, originally published online February 12, went on: "I once shared a table at a fried chicken fast food establishment with a nice African American lady. Immensely enjoying her fries, she sat with the shaker in one chubby fist and liberally salted each individual fry."'

The author, William Campbell semi-apologized about how it was unfortunate "some" took offense: "Campbell, an emeritus professor at the Uniformed Services University of Health Sciences and a retired colonel in the US Army, added: "It is unfortunate that sensibilities in our society now create an inability to transcend cultural barriers by telling true stories."
The link doesn't work for me. I didn't see the racism in that either, and now I want salty fries. And a better sampling of his writing in general, especially as it pertains to specific people, just in case we're not getting the full view of what people objected to.
  #120  
Old 02-17-2019, 08:28 PM
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... You’re one of the good guys. ...
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Telling members of an ethnic group that they shouldn't take offense at something (especially when this advice comes from a non-member of the group) is an all-time loser, when a substantial percentage of the group does find it objectionable. ...
General principles here.

One can be "one of the good guys" and be simply ignorant that something offends a large portion of a target group, or is the exact phrasing and behavior that a hater of the group uses. Ignorance does not eliminate good guy status. The intelligent "good guy" is always eager to reduce their ignorance and to learn.

Having it explained that something is offensive and arguing that it should not offend, getting defensive about it, stating that having been told that such offends many of the group is "political correctness run amok"? That starts to go beyond simple ignorance and minimally into willful ignorance.

Circling back to the OP, the politician in question at least played the part of "a good guy" in this well. Criticizing Israeli policies and advocating for Palestinian positions were not the issue; using longstanding anti-Semitic tropes (apparently inadvertently) was. She learned and we can move on with discussions, including ones that advocate for Palestinian positions and that are critical of Israeli policies and actions.
  #121  
Old 02-18-2019, 06:02 AM
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Well, thanks for your help in making it harder to convince people that using "gay" as a slur is a bad thing, I guess.
While I don't actually hang out with garbage people, I do often wind up seeing them online. And I've not seen "gay" used as a slur in a long while.

It seems to me that we were able to convince people it was a problem, while also explaining why "Democrat" is not the preferred adjective.

I'd actually argue the opposite of your position. By having lesser things that are considered offensive, it keeps those who desire to offend from thinking they need to use the worse ones. In other words, why call something "gay" as an insult when you know that saying "Democrat politician" will bug them?

That how it seems to be with me, anyways. When I'm trying to insult someone, my insults get a lot stronger when used against someone who acts like most insults never bother them. If it's someone easily offended, I don't push as hard.

I also find it a decent reverse shibboleth. If I see someone use it who should know better, or someone uses it after they've been told it isn't the proper adjective, then I know they're just a partisan hack not worth my time.
  #122  
Old 02-18-2019, 11:50 AM
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Having it explained that something is offensive and arguing that it should not offend, getting defensive about it, stating that having been told that such offends many of the group is "political correctness run amok"? That starts to go beyond simple ignorance and minimally into willful ignorance.
I generally agree with your point, but... an intelligent and thoughtful "good guy" also has the right to disagree with an explanation of this sort, at least depending on context and how many people are claiming offense. In the era of social media and re-tweeting and so forth, it's very hard to tell how many Jews are actually honestly offended by the original "It's All About the Benjamins" tweet, as opposed to Jews agreeing without really thinking about it, non-Jews sincerely repeating or echoing the claim, conservatives acting all concerned just to make liberals look bad, shit-stirring trolls, etc.

Certainly, it's not automatically the case that if you say something that references, say, black people, and one single black person says "that's offensive", then you should immediately change your language patterns and never ever say anything like that again.
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  #123  
Old 02-18-2019, 01:23 PM
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Was Omar using criticism of Israel an a dog whistle? I'd never heard of Omar until recently; if she's anti-Jewish call her out on it. In the searches and discussion nothing has turned up ... except "Well, some people who oppose illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank are also anti-Jewish.'
It doesn't matter if she intended it as a dog whistle. "Jews control X" is a well-established trope amongst those who dislike Jews. The fact that Omar's criticism may be solely limited to Israeli governmental influence in US politics is irrelevant.

Let me put it another way. I have always been strongly in favor of equal rights for African-Americans, including access to employment opportunities, criminal justice reform, and so on (both on the boards and in my private life). That doesn't make it okay for me to use the terms "black people" and "fried chicken" in the same sentence,* even if my intentions were totally pure and divorced from any stereotype.

*my apologies to our African-American posters for using "black people" and "fried chicken" in the same sentence.
  #124  
Old 02-19-2019, 12:42 AM
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Let me put it another way. I have always been strongly in favor of equal rights for African-Americans, including access to employment opportunities, criminal justice reform, and so on (both on the boards and in my private life). That doesn't make it okay for me to use the terms "black people" and "fried chicken" in the same sentence,* even if my intentions were totally pure and divorced from any stereotype.
I don't think it's quite that simple.

For instance, suppose that there's a black guy named Bob who owns "Bob's Fried Chicken". It would seem totally reasonable, when discussing him, to describe him as an "owner of a fried chicken restaurant".

On the other hand, suppose Bob owned "Bob's Family Diner", which served a bunch of things, among them, fried chicken. Randomly referring to him as an "owner of a friend chicken restaurant" _would_, in that case, strike me as at the very least suspicious.

On the other hand, he might own "Bob's Family Diner", but everyone for miles around knows that by far the best and really only reason to go to Bob's Family Diner was for the fried chicken... what about then?


I think you can at least make a good case that "it's all about the benjamins" is like the first example: Normally it's bad to talk about black people and fried chicken. But in this case, it's obviously and uncontroversially true that Bob owns a friend chicken restaurant. Normally it's bad to hint that Jews use their money to influence policy. But pro-Israel lobbying groups are largely funded by Jews and literally and directly use that money to influence policy.


I'm not claiming that the original tweet is 100% innocent in this fashion, but there's at least a reasonable argument to be made in that direction.
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  #125  
Old 02-19-2019, 08:26 AM
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That doesn't make it okay for me to use the terms "black people" and "fried chicken" in the same sentence,* even if my intentions were totally pure and divorced from any stereotype.
Can Popeye's put out an ad that includes black actors*?

While it's right to avoid suggesting that "all Jews/Blacks" do X or "only Jews/Blacks" do X, because that's racist thinking, I think we've lost out way if suggesting that "some Jews/Blacks do X, just like everyone else" is fomenting racism as well.


*And yes, I know that there are racists who will look at a Popeye's ad, with a black actress as the spokeswoman and chuckle inside at the trope being supported. They're idiots.
  #126  
Old 02-19-2019, 11:17 AM
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Sure, just as Target could put out an ad that includes white women. An ad featuring only black actors might be problematic, though (I'm thinking of the cringeworthy Black People version of the "I'm lovin' it" McDonald's ads where the jingle was remixed in an R&B style). As ever, context matters.
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I'm not claiming that the original tweet is 100% innocent in this fashion, but there's at least a reasonable argument to be made in that direction.
I agree, and I don't think Omar's tweet was actually anti-Semitic. The point is that this is a sensitive area and she should have known better.

Last edited by Really Not All That Bright; 02-19-2019 at 11:17 AM.
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