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  #4951  
Old 06-03-2018, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
Wait for it, wait for it:

"Oh yeah?! Well don't just stand there, do something about it like any good Canadian cowboy would."
Next one to call me a cowboy gets it in the neck. And I have done something about it; shouted MAGA-hat-wearing Nazi-loving scum off the stage. I'll probably have to do it again this year now that summer's on its way.
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  #4952  
Old 06-03-2018, 10:25 AM
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My emphasis.

Serious question: "Get into trouble" with whom? Who's going to indict him? Who's going to impeach him? Be specific. Name names.
My assumption has been the Republicans in Congress would finally have enough and stand with the Democrats to impeach him if he crossed that line (the line being firing people and shutting down the investigation). I can't say I'm fully confident at this point that they would follow through given how cowardly they've been towards Trump up til now, but it might be enough over the line to finally get them to act. And since Trump hasn't actually tried to shut it down legally (though he's tried to get Nunes and his lackeys to interfere in Congress and is using public opinion to try to discredit the investigation and the FBI), then he must think he'll get a lot of blowback from Congress (Gowdy, Ryan, McConnel, Graham, etc) if he tries

As for indicting Trump, I'm not sure if anyone in the DOJ really has the balls to try that since it's never been tried before, even if Mueller suggests it in a report. It's unknown territory and unsettled law that it might be too treacherous to try it in this case
  #4953  
Old 06-03-2018, 11:34 AM
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Maybe saying it's "dead" in the stative sense is inaccurate, I would agree. But it's clearly diseased and sliding into a bedridden state. It is anything but healthy, and you're deluded if you believe that this is just a temporary event that's going to reverse itself when this country has come to its senses.



"Prophet of Pants-Pissing." I actually laughed.



You know, you don't really seem all that "happy."
In a way, you are a bit of a "chicken little". You are warning of dangers that may not come to pass, and maybe even of some other dangers that are fairly unlikely to come to pass.

But, the cost of democracy is vigilance. That the sky is not falling is not something that we should take for granted, but something that we should at least glance up at from time to time to ensure that it is not in fact, getting ready to crash down upon us.

I said at the beginning, as early as his violation of the constitution on the emoluments, was that he was a tyrant. Now, that didn't mean that he had tyrannical powers, just that he had a tyrannical mindset. The checks and balances that are part of our normal govt structure are what are supposed to prevent someone with a tyrannical mindset from being able to exercise tyrannical powers. Those are simply absent. He should have been called out on his inauguration, as he was continuing to personally profit from foreign govt interests, in direct violation of the constituion. When it was said that it was fine that he did that, was when I personally got a bit worried.

The pillars of democracy are strong, but they are made of the people who are dedicated to preserving that democracy. And the current administration is not just picking away at those pillars, they are starting to bring in power tools and pneumatic jack hammers. Will they bring democracy down? I dunno, it is hard to say what will win out. But is it their intent to bring democracy down? I think, absolutely.

If we are complacent about it, and not vigilant about their actions, and calling them out on ever step, and yes, VOTING in november, we may find it much harder to maintain a democratic form of government.

I hope you are wrong, I really do, but if you are, I will thank you for your vigilance, rather than mock or insult you for it.
  #4954  
Old 06-03-2018, 04:46 PM
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If we are complacent about it, and not vigilant about their actions, and calling them out on ever step, and yes, VOTING in november, we may find it much harder to maintain a democratic form of government.
If you can afford some time, find someone in your area who is worthy of your vote, and spend a few hours on GOTV to help her campaign. Or sign up to be a poll watcher, or election judge.

Voting is key, of course, but it's not all you can do.

My own plans for this autumn are 1) volunteer for Mike Quigley's campaign, 2) volunteer for Pritzker's campaign, and 3) help oust Roskam (not my district, but he used to represent me and he's an asshole).

Oh, and if money's not too tight, throw a few bucks where you think it would do the most good.
  #4955  
Old 06-03-2018, 04:58 PM
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Oh, God damn it, now we have another addition to the dramatis personae? Okay, who the fuck is April Cohen, when was she raided, who raided her, and how is she supposed to be involved in all this?

Wikipedia is being singularly unhelpful about these developments...
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Originally Posted by running coach View Post
In other words, the raid on Cohen in April.
o_o

>_<

o_o

Oh.

Never mind.
  #4956  
Old 06-03-2018, 05:20 PM
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I hope you are wrong, I really do, but if you are, I will thank you for your vigilance, rather than mock or insult you for it.
But as others in this thread have pointed out, is it “vigilance” if the message is “give up, you idiots, there’s no hope!”? You may not see it, but I do, and I think I’ve got more folks who agree, FWIW.

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Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
I'm not getting this.

Suppose Trump fires Sessions, Rosenstein, Mueller, and everyone on Mueller's staff. He can do that.

Now, how can the legal system stop him from ending the investigation? It's ended, because there's nobody with the legal authority to continue it.

...

Seriously, by what mechanism does the investigation continue?
I don’t know. I guess, given the intricacies, I was just assuming that if that were legally (not politically) possible, it would’ve been done by now, given the never ending screaming about Trump’s political invincibility elsewhere in this thread. State investigation may also be a possibility, if my understanding is correct.
  #4957  
Old 06-03-2018, 05:23 PM
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My assumption has been the Republicans in Congress would finally have enough and stand with the Democrats to impeach him if he crossed that line (the line being firing people and shutting down the investigation). I can't say I'm fully confident at this point that they would follow through given how cowardly they've been towards Trump up til now, but it might be enough over the line to finally get them to act. And since Trump hasn't actually tried to shut it down legally (though he's tried to get Nunes and his lackeys to interfere in Congress and is using public opinion to try to discredit the investigation and the FBI), then he must think he'll get a lot of blowback from Congress (Gowdy, Ryan, McConnel, Graham, etc) if he tries
...
Yes, the events of today and yesterday support the idea that Trump isn't completely confident that Congress will roll over and play dead. He's attempting to work over public opinion on his possible upcoming attempts to shut down the investigation:

**yesterday's release (presumably by the White House itself, unofficially) of the memo WH lawyers wrote to Mueller. The letter is clearly intended to move public opinion in the direction of "Trump is above the law." That they want to hammer home this message now, indicates that Trump is about to violate the law. http://time.com/5299554/trump-lawyer...tion-subpoena/

**Today Trump tried to distance himself from Paul Manfort ("came into the campaign very late and was with us for a short period of time"), and complained that the FBI should have warned the campaign about Manafort being under investigation. Some interpret this as a sign that Manafort has started cooperating with Mueller---which would have huge implications for Trump. If it's true then Trump would be very tempted to test the will of Congress by doing massive obstruction--firing Mueller (via firing Sessions, etc.) and pardoning Manafort. https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-ask...151936370.html

So we may know what's up very shortly. If Ryan sits on his hands in the face of such barefaced obstruction of justice, then there certainly will be demonstrations in the streets...and then what?
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  #4958  
Old 06-03-2018, 05:26 PM
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But as others in this thread have pointed out, is it “vigilance” if the message is “give up, you idiots, there’s no hope!”? You may not see it, but I do, and I think I’ve got more folks who agree, FWIW.
....
Who cares what his motivation is? I don't see why it matters.

If someone yells "The building is on fire!" in a building that's on fire (and this building IS on fire), what difference does it make if his intention is for everyone to run, or for everyone to stay and get incinerated? I make my own decision based on the warning, either to run or to stay and die. Who cares what the guy yelling intends for me to do?

And you're gathering people who agree with you? That's even more mystifying. To what end?

I'm missin' sumptin'.
  #4959  
Old 06-03-2018, 05:36 PM
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Who cares what his motivation is? I don't see why it matters.

If someone yells "The building is on fire!" in a building that's on fire (and this building IS on fire), what difference does it make if his intention is for everyone to run, or for everyone to stay and get incinerated? I make my own decision based on the warning, either to run or to stay and die. Who cares what the guy yelling intends for me to do?

And you're gathering people who agree with you? That's even more mystifying. To what end?

I'm missin' sumptin'.
Because, again, the message I’m hearing is “the building is on fire, but you’re idiots if you can’t see that there’s nothing to be done and we’re all going to die no matter what.” And I brought up the agreement to demonstrate I’m not alone *in that specific interpretation*. This particular poster has already backpedaled on two statements I’ve seen that I thought were very firm and clear by claiming metaphor or some such.

Plus I’m still not sure what good voting does if rule of law is gone. Why doesn’t Trump the fascist dictator just cancel elections, rig them, or ignore them, and just send the FBI and army against those that object? That’s what happens when the rule of law is truly meaningless.
  #4960  
Old 06-03-2018, 05:42 PM
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If you can afford some time, find someone in your area who is worthy of your vote, and spend a few hours on GOTV to help her campaign. Or sign up to be a poll watcher, or election judge.

Voting is key, of course, but it's not all you can do.

My own plans for this autumn are 1) volunteer for Mike Quigley's campaign, 2) volunteer for Pritzker's campaign, and 3) help oust Roskam (not my district, but he used to represent me and he's an asshole).

Oh, and if money's not too tight, throw a few bucks where you think it would do the most good.
Voting is the least you can do, but it is the least you must do.

I do a bit of local political work as well. I don't have time to volunteer, but I do close for election day, so all my employees can vote and also assist in GOTV efforts. I don't do an official one, but I do make sure that all of my friends make it to the polls. Mostly I assist people with their sample ballots, and explain the issues and candidates to them, so that they can make an informed choice as to how to vote their best interest.

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But as others in this thread have pointed out, is it “vigilance” if the message is “give up, you idiots, there’s no hope!”? You may not see it, but I do, and I think I’ve got more folks who agree, FWIW.
We all have moments of despair. I see roads that we can take that lead to great places, but I do see roads that go to a fair amount of doom and gloom, and I don't know that we are going to choose the right one. When I look at what we are up against, I do understand the feeling that it's not going to work out, and that we're all just gonna be fucked. I try to be optimistic, but to not realize that the stakes here are very high, and that losing here will lead to some very unpleasant consequences for pretty much all involved, a bit of verbalization of that doom and gloom is not really all that inappropriate.

Like I said, I really hope that he is wrong, and that it is all rainbows and sunshine on the other end of this tunnel. Make him wrong, not by mocking or insulting him, but by helping to change the world to go on a different path, one away from the one that he sees.
  #4961  
Old 06-03-2018, 06:01 PM
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Then there’s the point of disagreement: what you see as “a bit of verbalization,” I’ve seen as “the near constant, primary message.” That’s where some of the frustration from other posters comes from.
  #4962  
Old 06-03-2018, 06:34 PM
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Prove him wrong.

I'm pretty sure he'd love to be wrong here. I know I would.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 06-03-2018 at 06:36 PM.
  #4963  
Old 06-03-2018, 07:36 PM
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I'm pretty sure he'd love to be wrong here. ...
Perhaps. All I know is that you can count on that guy for the straight Putin line: 'democracy is a weak and fatally-flawed system,' 'Western nations will inevitably fall,' 'all nations work to undermine others--that's modern life,' etc. etc.

I'm not saying the guy gets a paycheck. I'm just saying that he's pretty reliable in reflecting the message ol' Vlad wants promulgated.
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  #4964  
Old 06-03-2018, 07:49 PM
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Because, again, the message I’m hearing is “the building is on fire, but you’re idiots if you can’t see that there’s nothing to be done and we’re all going to die no matter what.” And I brought up the agreement to demonstrate I’m not alone *in that specific interpretation*. This particular poster has already backpedaled on two statements I’ve seen that I thought were very firm and clear by claiming metaphor or some such.
....
I have to repeat: "So what?"

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Then there’s the point of disagreement: what you see as “a bit of verbalization,” I’ve seen as “the near constant, primary message.” That’s where some of the frustration from other posters comes from.
WHO CARES?

Put him on your ignore list if you're tired of what he says. Or at the very least, don't read his posts. I do not see what you hope to accomplish with your ranting.

Now I'm going to stop ranting at you.
  #4965  
Old 06-03-2018, 08:40 PM
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I have to repeat: "So what?"

WHO CARES?

Put him on your ignore list if you're tired of what he says. Or at the very least, don't read his posts. I do not see what you hope to accomplish with your ranting.

Now I'm going to stop ranting at you.
Because it's extremely harmful to the cause. A message of hopelessness, despair, and defeat inspires people to stop trying. It's worse than Trumpeters taunting (as that just makes us angry and ready to fight) and no one has a problem when we tell them not to do that.

And the goal of saying something about it is to get the poster to stop doing that and start trying to figure out ways to help. Not repeatedly telling posters that their hope is stupid to have any hope and they might as well give up.

I honestly don't get why anyone supports that. Why would you support someone preaching gloom and doom? I get being sympathetic, as I worry that they have depression, and I don't want to make things worse. But that's different from condoning their posts.

We have to remain strong, and keep on fighting, and not give up. If a poster is telling people it is pointless, of course I'm going to try and stop them. (And, yes, put them on ignore because they probably won't listen. Doesn't mean I shouldn't try.)

Last edited by BigT; 06-03-2018 at 08:41 PM.
  #4966  
Old 06-03-2018, 09:34 PM
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Because it's extremely harmful to the cause. A message of hopelessness, despair, and defeat inspires people to stop trying. It's worse than Trumpeters taunting (as that just makes us angry and ready to fight) and no one has a problem when we tell them not to do that.

And the goal of saying something about it is to get the poster to stop doing that and start trying to figure out ways to help. Not repeatedly telling posters that their hope is stupid to have any hope and they might as well give up.

I honestly don't get why anyone supports that. Why would you support someone preaching gloom and doom? I get being sympathetic, as I worry that they have depression, and I don't want to make things worse. But that's different from condoning their posts.

We have to remain strong, and keep on fighting, and not give up. If a poster is telling people it is pointless, of course I'm going to try and stop them. (And, yes, put them on ignore because they probably won't listen. Doesn't mean I shouldn't try.)
I've had hope for the past 15-20 years that this country would see how badly the Republican party was trying to screw them over, and yet the keep winning the majority of the elections. And they keep winning by nominating more outrageous candidates. I'm not concerned with America since 2015; my concern dates back to 1994. I had hope. I had optimism. My fellow Americans keep letting me down. That is why I say, it's going to take a disaster to right the ship. Only when complacent Americans start connecting their voting behavior with the shit hole in which they live, will we begin to see some change.
  #4967  
Old 06-04-2018, 08:23 AM
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Only when complacent Americans start connecting their voting behavior with the shit hole in which they live, will we begin to see some change.
So you do have some hope. Thanks for explaining. I'll stop with the paralysis (I was starting to slip from frustration into despair), and get off my butt.

People of America, if D'asahi Downer hasn't given up hope, we cannot either!
Who's with me? By Grabthar's Hammer, we shall fight on!


[shakes fist towards Washington]
  #4968  
Old 06-04-2018, 08:32 AM
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If we're being candid, I highly doubt that you could...
Leaving aside whether that's true altogether, when you see me making a big deal about HRC endangering national security via emails or servers or whatever, we can discuss that. As long as it's just your imagination, then it's irrelevant.

Quote:

o_o

>_<

o_0

You just said something that I can't disagree with in the slightest particular. Moriarty was right; you are turning a corner...

So...welcome to the dark side; have a cookie?
Sorry to disappoint you. I stand by everything I've posted to these threads and don't believe there's anything inconsistent with this latest post. Got anything otherwise, feel free to whip it out.
  #4969  
Old 06-04-2018, 08:35 AM
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Sorry to disappoint you. I stand by everything I've posted to these threads and don't believe there's anything inconsistent with this latest post. Got anything otherwise, feel free to whip it out.
Lighten up, Francis. He said he agreed with you.
.
  #4970  
Old 06-04-2018, 08:52 AM
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That does nothing for me. If there's one thing that doesn't interest me, it's whether guys like him agree with me.

But what does interest me is this constant effort to distort my position on these issues, as he did in his post. I don't always comment on it, but every once in a while I do.
  #4971  
Old 06-04-2018, 09:09 AM
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Leaving aside whether that's true altogether, when you see me making a big deal about HRC endangering national security via emails or servers or whatever, we can discuss that. As long as it's just your imagination, then it's irrelevant.

Sorry to disappoint you. I stand by everything I've posted to these threads and don't believe there's anything inconsistent with this latest post. Got anything otherwise, feel free to whip it out.
Fine.

Gimme back the cookie, then. Cookies are for closers.
  #4972  
Old 06-04-2018, 09:19 AM
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I suspect that cookie is extremely high in transfats ...
  #4973  
Old 06-04-2018, 09:31 AM
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I suspect that cookie is extremely high in transfats ...
That's bad.
  #4974  
Old 06-04-2018, 10:10 AM
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It isn't often that NPR makes me literally LOL, but it happened this morning: in a discussion as to whether or not Trump should submit to questioning by the Mueller investigation, National Review's Jonah Goldberg said: "Rudy Giuliani talks about his client like he's an escaped monkey from a cocaine study."
  #4975  
Old 06-04-2018, 10:38 AM
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It isn't often that NPR makes me literally LOL, but it happened this morning: in a discussion as to whether or not Trump should submit to questioning by the Mueller investigation, National Review's Jonah Goldberg said: "Rudy Giuliani talks about his client like he's an escaped monkey from a cocaine study."
I caught that too. I got a good chuckle out of it and I plan to steal it.

Last edited by Asylum; 06-04-2018 at 10:43 AM.
  #4976  
Old 06-04-2018, 10:50 AM
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Was Goldberg referring to Trump or Giuliani? They both sound like escaped monkeys.
  #4977  
Old 06-04-2018, 10:50 AM
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That's bad.
But it comes with sprinkles!
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  #4978  
Old 06-04-2018, 10:53 AM
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Was Goldberg referring to Trump or Giuliani? They both sound like escaped monkeys.
To clarify: "Rudy Giuliani talks about his client like he [Trump]'s an escaped monkey from a cocaine study."

In other words: don't let that gibbering idiot say *anything* under oath!
  #4979  
Old 06-04-2018, 12:44 PM
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November 17, 1973, Richard Nixon: "I am not a crook!"

June 4, 2018, Donald J. Thump: "I have done nothing wrong!"

Yeah, right.
  #4980  
Old 06-04-2018, 12:46 PM
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Nixon to David Frost: "When the President does it, that means it is not illegal."

Not a precedent you'd want to lean on, Donnie and Rudy.
  #4981  
Old 06-04-2018, 04:58 PM
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But it comes with sprinkles!
That's good!
  #4982  
Old 06-04-2018, 07:52 PM
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Oh, Paul... just what are you up to now?

https://twitter.com/ReutersPolitics/...035248640?s=19

"JUST IN: U.S. Special Counsel Mueller says ex-Trump campaign manager Paul Manafort has attempted to tamper with potential witness - court filing"

This may explain Dotards latest freak-out.
  #4983  
Old 06-04-2018, 07:53 PM
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Bye, bye, Paul. (Reuters)

Figured this was coming sooner or later.

Quote:
President Donald Trump’s former campaign manager, Paul Manafort, who has been indicted by U.S. Special Counsel Robert Mueller, attempted to tamper with potential witnesses, Mueller said in a court filing on Monday.

Mueller, who is investigating possible collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia, asked the judge overseeing the case in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia to revoke or revise an order releasing Manafort ahead of his trial.
(Emphasis mine.)

ETA: Ninja'd by JohnT. (Curse you!)

Last edited by Aspenglow; 06-04-2018 at 07:54 PM.
  #4984  
Old 06-04-2018, 07:58 PM
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This pretty much sums it up:

"So Manafort sent encrypted messages to former employees to encourage them to make “materially false” claims about his lobbying for pro-Russian Ukrainian politicians. While under house arrest!"

https://t.co/gbJmwkI3my
  #4985  
Old 06-04-2018, 07:59 PM
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Manafort will look good in an orange jumpsuit...
  #4986  
Old 06-04-2018, 07:59 PM
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Would asahi and Happy Lendervedder and whoever else is hijacking this thread please take your cage match to its own thread?
  #4987  
Old 06-04-2018, 08:02 PM
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This pretty much sums it up:

"So Manafort sent encrypted messages to former employees to encourage them to make “materially false” claims about his lobbying for pro-Russian Ukrainian politicians. While under house arrest!"

https://t.co/gbJmwkI3my
Pretty much everything they're doing now smacks of desperation to me.

How could Manafort be so dumb after they already caught him violating the judge's gag order? I thought the judge would revoke his bail then. She will surely do it now, I think.
  #4988  
Old 06-04-2018, 08:07 PM
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Manafort will look good in an orange jumpsuit...
Well, he's only a little late for the wishes of the Parkland kids.
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Old 06-04-2018, 08:51 PM
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Oh, Paul... just what are you up to now?

https://twitter.com/ReutersPolitics/...035248640?s=19

"JUST IN: U.S. Special Counsel Mueller says ex-Trump campaign manager Paul Manafort has attempted to tamper with potential witness - court filing"

This may explain Dotards latest freak-out.
Here (PDF) is Mueller's court filing. Looks like they caught him contacting the European diplomats he hired to lobby on behalf of Ukraine - the "Hapsburg Group". Wanting them to say that none of the lobbying was in the US.
  #4990  
Old 06-04-2018, 09:09 PM
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Sorry, wrong PDF - above link is to the FBI agent's filing in support.

Full set of filings here - https://assets.documentcloud.org/doc...6/315-Main.pdf

Last edited by jasg; 06-04-2018 at 09:09 PM.
  #4991  
Old 06-04-2018, 09:50 PM
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This is why Trump was trying to distance himself from Manafort for the last couple of days.
  #4992  
Old 06-04-2018, 11:04 PM
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This is why Trump was trying to distance himself from Manafort for the last couple of days.
That can't be true. Trump would never knowingly receive information that wasn't publicly released yet. We know how much he hates leaks.
  #4993  
Old 06-04-2018, 11:05 PM
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A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes


Papadopoulis’ fiancé was just on Tucker Carlson asking for a pardon for him.

Last edited by Fiveyearlurker; 06-04-2018 at 11:05 PM.
  #4994  
Old 06-04-2018, 11:37 PM
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Papadopoulis’ fiancé was just on Tucker Carlson asking for a pardon for him.
This article (warning: newsmax) identifies her as his wife. My but how she goes on and on and on about how very, very innocent he is.
  #4995  
Old 06-05-2018, 03:36 AM
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Papadopoulis’ fiancé was just on Tucker Carlson asking for a pardon for him.
I strongly disagree. We should lock him up and throw away the key as punishment for all the evil he has done.

Papadopoulos, on the other hand, I don't mind cutting a deal for.
  #4996  
Old 06-05-2018, 06:30 AM
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I strongly disagree. We should lock him up and throw away the key as punishment for all the evil he has done.

Papadopoulos, on the other hand, I don't mind cutting a deal for.
When you say you wouldn't mind cutting a deal for Papadopoulos do you mean a plea deal or a pardon? He already got the former. The latter is just a giant signal to all other witnesses to not cooperate with the investigation.
  #4997  
Old 06-05-2018, 06:42 AM
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When you say you wouldn't mind cutting a deal for Papadopoulos do you mean a plea deal or a pardon? He already got the former. The latter is just a giant signal to all other witnesses to not cooperate with the investigation.
Mostly I was just making a joke about locking up Tucker Carlson.
  #4998  
Old 06-05-2018, 06:46 AM
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This pretty much sums it up:

"So Manafort sent encrypted messages to former employees to encourage them to make “materially false” claims about his lobbying for pro-Russian Ukrainian politicians. While under house arrest!"

https://t.co/gbJmwkI3my
To paraphrase Manafort's line about Hillary: LOCK HIM UP!

Or let him build (at his own expense) a Faraday cage around his house.
  #4999  
Old 06-05-2018, 06:59 AM
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To paraphrase Manafort's line about Hillary: LOCK HIM UP!
Was that Manafort's line? I remember Trump and Flynn Sr chanting that one.
  #5000  
Old 06-05-2018, 07:23 AM
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Was that Manafort's line? I remember Trump and Flynn Sr chanting that one.
You might be right. All these crooks look alike to me. He did defend the use of the phrase at the convention, but he may not have been known for chanting it himself. So to Paul M I offer the very minimum of apologies.
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