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Old 03-26-2020, 10:13 PM
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Former staffer accuses Joe Biden of sexual assault


Her name is Tara Reade. Story. Full Interview. Additional story.

Of course many Democrats have recently said that when a woman alleges sexual assault , we should presume she's telling the truth. Joe Biden, for example. I guess now we'll see how consistent they are in holding that position.
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Old 03-26-2020, 10:18 PM
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My friend says it's a plot by the Russians
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Old 03-27-2020, 12:31 AM
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Old 03-27-2020, 12:41 AM
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For now, any such stories are being buried by the virus, but the Trump campaign will probably run heavily with this as November nears (if the epidemic ever lessens to the point where it becomes a background story to the election)
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Old 03-27-2020, 01:22 AM
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Her name is Tara Reade. Story. Full Interview. Additional story.

Of course many Democrats have recently said that when a woman alleges sexual assault , we should presume she's telling the truth. Joe Biden, for example. I guess now we'll see how consistent they are in holding that position.
That remains not what we say. It remains what our enemies claim we say, because it makes us sound stupid. No one ever says to believe every single woman, as there are obviously are some cases of false reports. That is a strawman.

What we say is that accusations should be taken seriously, and seriously investigated.

Thing is, this is a situation where the woman in question has changed her story several times, and has said, and I quote, "President Putin scares the power elite in America because he is a compassionate, caring, visionary leader."

She appears to have changed her story because her previous version wasn't getting any traction. But this version sounds even more fake, with lines out of a badly written novel. This is a common form of lying--of constantly making things bigger and bigger. It's not a common way that victims act--they remember the trauma and stick with it, with only minor details varying due to memory.

Changing your story in a substantial way is a legitimate reason to treat an accusation with suspicion. As is her repeating Russian propaganda at a time when Russia is currently known to be trying to mess with our election process. These are far more substantive than claiming someone is lying because someone else doesn't remember, alleging a calendar proves something didn't happen, and other such things.

That said, the accusations should be taken seriously. They should actually investigate. It's just that, unlike in most, we actually have a reason to think she could be lying. And it's not "because I don't like what she's saying" or "because the accused is the real victim."

Last edited by BigT; 03-27-2020 at 01:25 AM.
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Old 03-27-2020, 04:27 AM
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All accusations, including this one, should be taken seriously and investigated.
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Old 03-27-2020, 09:17 AM
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Should be investigated thoroughly.

The fact that she has written love letters to Vladimir Putin, and she comes forward now that Biden is the nominee against Putins puppet (Trump) is kind of bothersome.

https://web.archive.org/web/20190404...n-f54ca2a3a405

Should still be investigated though.

Its sad that of all the moderate candidates, the voters picked Biden. They could've had Buttigieg who would've been a much better candidate. Or Harris.
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Old 03-27-2020, 09:18 AM
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Well this is fucking troubling.
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Old 03-27-2020, 09:28 AM
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Should be investigated thoroughly.

The fact that she has written love letters to Vladimir Putin, and she comes forward now that Biden is the nominee against Putins puppet (Trump) is kind of bothersome.

https://web.archive.org/web/20190404...n-f54ca2a3a405

Should still be investigated though.

Its sad that of all the moderate candidates, the voters picked Biden. They could've had Buttigieg who would've been a much better candidate. Or Harris.
There is speculation her articles weren't even written by her, they were written originally by a Russian.

https://twitter.com/adanthar/status/1243254015099572225

This story gets weirder and weirder.

Should still be investigated obviously. If its true its sad that our choices are two elderly men who may both have dementia nad a history of sexual assault.
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Old 03-27-2020, 09:37 AM
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Yes, this should be investigated.

That said, just like the Blasey-Ford "investigation," I'm not sure what anyone actually expects. It's a he-said/she-said account of an incident 27 years ago. There is going to be no additional evidence turned up in an "investigation." You either believe her or you don't.

So go ahead, investigate and we'll discuss this again if anything magically happens to turn up, like maybe she foolishly wrote an email to a friend about how she was going to make up a sexual assault allegation. I doubt it, but let's go through the motions anyway.


At the end of the day, whether or not you believe her, this is very, very bad optics for a man who already has an image of being a weird back-rubbing creeper. I cannot for the life of me understand why women support him.
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Old 03-27-2020, 09:40 AM
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That remains not what we say. It remains what our enemies claim we say, because it makes us sound stupid. No one ever says to believe every single woman, as there are obviously are some cases of false reports. That is a strawman.

What we say is that accusations should be taken seriously, and seriously investigated.

Thing is, this is a situation where the woman in question has changed her story several times, and has said, and I quote, "President Putin scares the power elite in America because he is a compassionate, caring, visionary leader."

She appears to have changed her story because her previous version wasn't getting any traction. But this version sounds even more fake, with lines out of a badly written novel. This is a common form of lying--of constantly making things bigger and bigger. It's not a common way that victims act--they remember the trauma and stick with it, with only minor details varying due to memory.

Changing your story in a substantial way is a legitimate reason to treat an accusation with suspicion. As is her repeating Russian propaganda at a time when Russia is currently known to be trying to mess with our election process. These are far more substantive than claiming someone is lying because someone else doesn't remember, alleging a calendar proves something didn't happen, and other such things.

That said, the accusations should be taken seriously. They should actually investigate. It's just that, unlike in most, we actually have a reason to think she could be lying. And it's not "because I don't like what she's saying" or "because the accused is the real victim."

This sounds eerily like the things the Republicans were saying about the testimony of Christine Blasey Ford ...
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Old 03-27-2020, 09:42 AM
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At the end of the day, whether or not you believe her, this is very, very bad optics for a man who already has an image of being a weird back-rubbing creeper. I cannot for the life of me understand why women support him.
Women support Trump.
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Old 03-27-2020, 09:49 AM
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Obama's vetting team and a dozen years of GOP operatives didn't unearth this. Biden will have to respond but similarly this needs to be looked into further. Why wait to the point he is on the cusp of the nomination and all but one other candidate remains?
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Old 03-27-2020, 09:56 AM
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Women support Trump.
I don't understand that either.

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Obama's vetting team and a dozen years of GOP operatives didn't unearth this. Biden will have to respond but similarly this needs to be looked into further. Why wait to the point he is on the cusp of the nomination and all but one other candidate remains?
2008 was a different time. As for why now, that's also exactly what Republicans said about Blasey-Ford's accusation.
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Old 03-27-2020, 10:06 AM
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"Let's investigate this" is exactly what the Republicans weren't saying about Blasey-Ford's accusations.

Republicans like to trot out the possibility of false accusations. And, yes, there are false accusations out there. But what they never seem to realize is that the existence of false accusations and of true accusations are both reasons to investigate. If an accusation is true, then of course we want to know that. And if an accusation is false, then of course we want to know that, too.
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Old 03-27-2020, 10:10 AM
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Who should investigate - the FBI? Local police? The Senate? The press?

It's all well and good to say it should be investigated, but saying it is easy. How seriously should we take this, and based on what?
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This sounds eerily like the things the Republicans were saying about the testimony of Christine Blasey Ford ...
No kidding.

I thought the white male patriarchy questioning women about their truth was why we have a problem with sexual assault, false accusations are much rarer than real sexual assault, etc., etc.

:shrugs:

The Dems will say it should be investigated, and then drop the subject. No political hay they can make out of this one, or at least not the kind they want.

Regards,
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Old 03-27-2020, 10:12 AM
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So even if this is true, we'll still have to choose between Biden or Trump.

Easy choice for me.
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Old 03-27-2020, 10:12 AM
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"Let's investigate this" is exactly what the Republicans weren't saying about Blasey-Ford's accusations.

Republicans like to trot out the possibility of false accusations. And, yes, there are false accusations out there. But what they never seem to realize is that the existence of false accusations and of true accusations are both reasons to investigate. If an accusation is true, then of course we want to know that. And if an accusation is false, then of course we want to know that, too.
Agree. Also I'd add with Kavanaugh there were three accusations. Two were pretty well discredited (one of which was a Michael Avenatti led case) leaving Blasey-Ford as the sole credible accusation.

I want this woman's claim to be investigated in so if Biden is guilty of the charge he is removed off the ticket. My question of the timing surrounds that issue of how it's come out as he's the presumptive nominee. If it was last year Biden would not have been able to run and the race would be entirely different. I am sure plenty of media outlets beside a soundcloud podcast would have listened and looked into the story ... as they did with those women who claimed he got too handsy for their comfort.
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Old 03-27-2020, 10:12 AM
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Bet Bernie wouldn’t have this problem.
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Old 03-27-2020, 10:13 AM
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So even if this is true, we'll still have to choose between Biden or Trump.

Easy choice for me.
Biden isn't even the nominee yet, this is going to ruin Democrats' credibility and Al Franken will have resigned for nothing.
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Old 03-27-2020, 10:22 AM
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As for why now, that's also exactly what Republicans said about Blasey-Ford's accusation.
The window of Kavanaugh's national relevance was significantly shorter (by a decade, if not decades) than the window of Biden's national relevance. Just because "Republicans said this too" doesn't make them equivalent questions.
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Old 03-27-2020, 10:24 AM
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Who should investigate - the FBI? Local police? The Senate? The press?
Journalists certainly should investigate. The Democratic party certainly should investigate. I'm sure both of these groups are already investigating. Law enforcement should investigate if they have reason to believe a crime has been committed -- so if this accusation qualifies, then they should investigate this (I don't know the statue of limitations for the jurisdiction in question).

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It's all well and good to say it should be investigated, but saying it is easy. How seriously should we take this, and based on what? No kidding.
We should take it extremely seriously, and find out all the facts that can be determined regarding the accusation.

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I thought the white male patriarchy questioning women about their truth was why we have a problem with sexual assault, false accusations are much rarer than real sexual assault, etc., etc.
Yes... and? This is why this accusation should be taken seriously and seriously investigated.

Quote:
The Dems will say it should be investigated, and then drop the subject.
I expect they (the party) will investigate extremely thoroughly, because if the accusation is accurate, Biden will need to drop out before the convention so an alternative can be found. It would be politically insane to "drop the subject".
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Old 03-27-2020, 10:28 AM
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Who should investigate - the FBI? Local police? The Senate? The press?

It's all well and good to say it should be investigated, but saying it is easy. How seriously should we take this, and based on what? No kidding.

I thought the white male patriarchy questioning women about their truth was why we have a problem with sexual assault, false accusations are much rarer than real sexual assault, etc., etc.

:shrugs:

The Dems will say it should be investigated, and then drop the subject. No political hay they can make out of this one, or at least not the kind they want.

Regards,
Shodan
Serious enough to the same extent that when Pete Buttigieg and Robert Mueller were accused of sexual assault and it went viral online, the claims were looked into and the people looked into to find out it was a hoax. Mueller's office referred it to the FBI.

https://www.businessinsider.com/pete...19-4?r=US&IR=T
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Old 03-27-2020, 10:31 AM
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Investigating all sexual assaults extremely thoroughly is not only the right thing to do, it's also the politically smart thing to do. The party and even the campaign team need to know the facts of all potential lines of political attack against the candidate.
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Old 03-27-2020, 11:01 AM
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Investigating all sexual assaults extremely thoroughly is not only the right thing to do, it's also the politically smart thing to do. The party and even the campaign team need to know the facts of all potential lines of political attack against the candidate.
And then due to the extreme time lapse, no evidence one way or the other is found (JUST LIKE MOST CASES but also like the Kavanaugh case), then what?
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Old 03-27-2020, 11:04 AM
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And then due to the extreme time lapse, no evidence one way or the other is found (JUST LIKE MOST CASES but also like the Kavanaugh case), then what?
Appoint Biden to the Supreme Court.
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Old 03-27-2020, 11:11 AM
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What are we supposed to do with the accusation now?

We already know that Trump is a serial sexual assaulter. We know that Biden has inappropriately touched other women before -- this is not really new information.

I hate sounding like an apologist, but Biden is the best of some rather shitty options, which is shitty, but I'm not going to let the perfect be the enemy of the survival of this country.

I know I'm going to get torched for this, so flame away.
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Old 03-27-2020, 11:12 AM
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Appoint Biden to the Supreme Court.
Or in this case, allow him to run, also allowing the Trump re-election campaign to freely bash the issue, kinda like Kavanaugh still gets bashed

But hey at least the iiandyii's of the world got their "investigation", and some of them they will agree with while others they will not. Of course this has nothing to do with partisan politic lines, AT ALL.

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Old 03-27-2020, 11:15 AM
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What are we supposed to do with the accusation now?

We already know that Trump is a serial sexual assaulter. We know that Biden has inappropriately touched other women before -- this is not really new information.

I hate sounding like an apologist, but Biden is the best of some rather shitty options, which is shitty, but I'm not going to let the perfect be the enemy of the survival of this country.

I know I'm going to get torched for this, so flame away.
I agree, we all make mistakes. Kavanugh was accused, but appointed to the USSC. I mean what does it matter that an accusation could result in the President possibly being elected. Trump was accused also if I recall.
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Old 03-27-2020, 11:19 AM
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What are we supposed to do with the accusation now?

We already know that Trump is a serial sexual assaulter. We know that Biden has inappropriately touched other women before -- this is not really new information.

I hate sounding like an apologist, but Biden is the best of some rather shitty options, which is shitty, but I'm not going to let the perfect be the enemy of the survival of this country.

I know I'm going to get torched for this, so flame away.
The same thing rational Americans wanted the Republican party to do this time 4 years ago -- pull whatever strings are necessary to kick potential sexual abusers out of the presidential race.
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Old 03-27-2020, 11:20 AM
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What are we supposed to do with the accusation now?
Get to the bottom of it, quite obviously. There are several months prior to the convention. If it's real, then there are probably other potential accusers out there, and we need a new candidate. If it's not, then this needs to be known (with all the supporting facts) to rebut political attacks that attempt to utilize this accusation.

This should be politics 101.
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Old 03-27-2020, 11:22 AM
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Investigating all sexual assaults extremely thoroughly is not only the right thing to do, it's also the politically smart thing to do. The party and even the campaign team need to know the facts of all potential lines of political attack against the candidate.
The thing is, she already got her kick at the can. When all the "creepy uncle Joe" stuff was being aired and investigated, this woman piped up with her story that at the time was similar to the others. ie

“He used to put his hand on my shoulder and run his finger up my neck. I would just kind of freeze and wait for him to stop doing that.”

Now, she is saying she was scared to say the truth back then and her new story doesn't match any other accusation. It's pretty fishy.
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Old 03-27-2020, 11:22 AM
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I'll also note that this is an entirely different kind of accusation than the others -- IIRC, this is the first time anyone has accused Biden of sexual assault, or anything close to sexual assault. All the other accusations (acknowledged and apologized for by Biden, IIRC) were non-sexual touching -- i.e. hair, shoulders, hugs, etc., that violated personal space but with no allegations of anything sexual.

Needs to be fully investigated -- and this need is both moral and political. I'm 99% certain that skilled journalists, and party investigators, are already doing so.
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Old 03-27-2020, 11:24 AM
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The thing is, she already got her kick at the can. When all the "creepy uncle Joe" stuff was being aired and investigated, this woman piped up with her story that at the time was similar to the others. ie

“He used to put his hand on my shoulder and run his finger up my neck. I would just kind of freeze and wait for him to stop doing that.”

Now, she is saying she was scared to say the truth back then and her new story doesn't match any other accusation. It's pretty fishy.
If so, this is just another reason to investigate, thoroughly, NOW.

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Old 03-27-2020, 11:24 AM
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Most people probably remember Clinton was accused of a 1978 rape when he ran in 1992. It made the news for a short time.
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Old 03-27-2020, 11:26 AM
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Why is that a reason to investigate? Someone changes their story = good reason to investigate??
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Old 03-27-2020, 11:27 AM
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I agree, we all make mistakes. Kavanugh was accused, but appointed to the USSC. I mean what does it matter that an accusation could result in the President possibly being elected. Trump was accused also if I recall.
Joe Biden is not Donald Trump, and people had better not take the fucking bait.

Full stop.
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Old 03-27-2020, 11:28 AM
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Why is that a reason to investigate? Someone changes their story = good reason to investigate??
Investigations are to find the facts of the accusation. If the accusation isn't true, we need to know, and the sooner the better. Same goes for if it is true.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 03-27-2020 at 11:29 AM.
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Old 03-27-2020, 11:29 AM
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Get to the bottom of it, quite obviously. There are several months prior to the convention. If it's real, then there are probably other potential accusers out there, and we need a new candidate. If it's not, then this needs to be known (with all the supporting facts) to rebut political attacks that attempt to utilize this accusation.

This should be politics 101.
Most people understand that Biden's not going to campaign against Trump's sexual virtues or lack thereof.
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Old 03-27-2020, 11:32 AM
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I'm assuming the reason she hasn't filed a criminal complaint is because this alleged incident was some 27 years ago. So are law enforcement authorities likely to get involved with this investigation?
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Old 03-27-2020, 11:34 AM
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Investigations are to find the facts of the accusation. If the accusation isn't true, we need to know, and the sooner the better. Same goes for if it is true.
Grey, gray and muddy grey's are almost a sure thing to find in sexual assault charges. What is the requirement of proof before deciding that the person should be removed, re-allocated, or not confirmed as the judge/president/candidate/santiation worker etc?
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Old 03-27-2020, 11:35 AM
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Most people understand that Biden's not going to campaign against Trump's sexual virtues or lack thereof.
The moral reason is enough to investigate (and obviously journalists will already be doing so), but there's still a very strong political reason -- the campaign needs to know all the potential lines of attack, coming from Trump or coming from elsewhere. If an allegation is false, they need to be able to demonstrate this as best they can, to refute it.
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Old 03-27-2020, 11:37 AM
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And then due to the extreme time lapse, no evidence one way or the other is found (JUST LIKE MOST CASES but also like the Kavanaugh case), then what?
Then Democrats explain that
  • Accusations from decades ago, with no witnesses, no physical evidence, and no corroboration aren't credible
  • False accusations are rare, but that doesn't mean this accusation is true
  • Occasionally women lie about sexual assault because
    • they misremembered
    • they exaggerated something
    • they're crazy
    • they were put up to it
    • they had political motivations
  • That the press should go thru an accuser's background and see what they find, and then publish it if they see fit
  • That women should feel empowered to come forward

I kid, I kid. Actually they will change the subject as hard as they can, and then vote for Biden anyway.

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Old 03-27-2020, 11:38 AM
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Grey, gray and muddy grey's are almost a sure thing to find in sexual assault charges.
Facts are also possible. Without investigating, we won't know. The possibility of not finding conclusive facts is a pathetic reason not to investigate. This is a possibility with every investigation into any accusation.

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What is the requirement of proof before deciding that the person should be removed, re-allocated, or not confirmed as the judge/president/candidate/santiation worker etc?
Case by case. I already voted for another candidate, and I'd prefer we had someone else as the presumptive nominee. My judgement will be reserved to see the results of investigations, or at the time I have to actually make a decision (i.e. at the ballot box).
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Old 03-27-2020, 11:39 AM
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I kid, I kid. Actually they will change the subject as hard as they can, and then vote for Biden anyway.
Snark aside, have you considered the possibility that some human beings actually really, really care about this issue and take it very seriously?
  #46  
Old 03-27-2020, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
I'll also note that this is an entirely different kind of accusation than the others -- IIRC, this is the first time anyone has accused Biden of sexual assault, or anything close to sexual assault. All the other accusations (acknowledged and apologized for by Biden, IIRC) were non-sexual touching -- i.e. hair, shoulders, hugs, etc., that violated personal space but with no allegations of anything sexual.

Needs to be fully investigated -- and this need is both moral and political. I'm 99% certain that skilled journalists, and party investigators, are already doing so.
I'm sure some people will follow up but I doubt it will satisfy your need for a full investigation.
  #47  
Old 03-27-2020, 11:43 AM
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One big difference between this accusation and the accusations against Trump is that one of Trump's accusers was Trump himself. Either Trump is a sexual predator, or Trump is a false accuser, and either way, he shouldn't be elected.
  #48  
Old 03-27-2020, 11:45 AM
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The window of Kavanaugh's national relevance was significantly shorter (by a decade, if not decades) than the window of Biden's national relevance. Just because "Republicans said this too" doesn't make them equivalent questions.
His "national relevance" is short? They put him on the scotus for life, ALSO stealing that seat from a D potus. That is more "national relevance" than should be tolerated by US voters. It's just about eternal.
  #49  
Old 03-27-2020, 11:48 AM
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I'm sure some people will follow up but I doubt it will satisfy your need for a full investigation.
We'll see. Obviously this isn't about me -- I'm just sharing my opinion.
  #50  
Old 03-27-2020, 11:48 AM
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His "national relevance" is short? They put him on the scotus for life, ALSO stealing that seat from a D potus. That is more "national relevance" than should be tolerated by US voters. It's just about eternal.
The point was his short time in the public eye, not the length of his appointment.
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