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  #4751  
Old 11-15-2019, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
If a drunk asshole at the end of the bar rants that I should be fired from my job, I can just laugh and ignore him.

However if the most powerful person in the nation, the head of the armed forces, the person who appoints the Attorney General, and the person in charge of every single person where I work tweets that I am a terrible person and should be fired from my job.... That is just a little, teeny tiny bit different. Especially when I am in the very process of producing evidence under oath about that very person's performance.
And again, if that very powerful person has already publicly and privately attempted to get his perceived enemies criminally prosecuted, that's a huge fucking bit different.
  #4752  
Old 11-15-2019, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
Anyone who would defend this kind of action on Trump's part is simply a complete Authoritarian, who wants to have a King and God-Emperor on the throne.

... and have completely abandoned any principles that they could have once claimed to have had.

The bar is now laying on the floor for the GOP, it boggles the mind to think how it can possibly be lowered.
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Last edited by Airbeck; 11-15-2019 at 02:37 PM.
  #4753  
Old 11-15-2019, 02:40 PM
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The bar is now laying on the floor for the GOP, it boggles the mind to think how it can possibly be lowered.
They’ll find a way. I agree it boggles the mind. But they’ll find a way.
  #4754  
Old 11-15-2019, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by rock party View Post
Trump is intimidating because he's smearing her without facts. He's not detailing anything she's done specifically wrong, he's just announcing she's bad and bad things happened around her. He's not illustrating ANY facts to support his accusations, he's not offering her any discussion.
This is especially hilarious in light of the fact that her CV has been laid out and it looks like it's made up, it's so good, and every single Congressperson in that chamber - even the R's - began every question by bathing her in adulation at what a stellar career she's had and what and exemplary foreign service agent she's been, etc. etc.

And then here comes Trump - "She sucks! She caused Somalia! Everybody hates her!"

What a schmuck this guy is.
  #4755  
Old 11-15-2019, 02:41 PM
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I’ve been spending too much time on this.

I just typed a single one-line work related email in my usual fumble fingered fashion. The sentence “You should have your missing engraving soon” autocorrected to “Yovanovitch should have your missing Ukraine soon”.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 11-15-2019 at 02:44 PM.
  #4756  
Old 11-15-2019, 02:43 PM
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Nm......server weirdness, duplicate

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 11-15-2019 at 02:44 PM.
  #4757  
Old 11-15-2019, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
My comment wasn't advocating that those civil-servant-employment-protections be removed, it was merely noting that they do, in fact, exist. As for the political leanings of the federal workforce, it's slightly dem overall:



The State Department appears to be something of a bastion of liberalism though:
Nah, its just that the Republicans spend all of their money on guns and bibles. And grip strengtheners so that their guns and bibles can't be taken away.
  #4758  
Old 11-15-2019, 03:09 PM
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The completely unassailable two-pronged defense by the GOP of Trump's tweet are things of pure beauty:

WH statement (relayed through a Hill correspondent on NBC) was that Trump *couldn't* have intimidated the witness by his VERY PUBLIC STATEMENT because she was in the hearing at the time and couldn't have seen it, and IN FACT, Adam Schiff is the one who read it to her, and therefore HE is the one guilty of witness intimidation!

If you're even able to keep going, then Stefanik (who is revealing herself to be of great moral character) just went on TV and said it isn't even possible that Trump could be guilty of witness intimidation, because Yovanovitch testified! You can't be intimidated if you testify!

Case closed, losers.
  #4759  
Old 11-15-2019, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
... However if the most powerful person in the nation, the head of the armed forces, the person who appoints the Attorney General, and the person in charge of every single person where I work tweets that I am a terrible person and should be fired from my job.... That is just a little, teeny tiny bit different. Especially when I am in the very process of producing evidence under oath about that very person's performance. ...
AFAIK, President Trump's tweet didn't say that she "should be fired" from her job. It didn't even mention her current job. He just said she was bad at her last job.

  #4760  
Old 11-15-2019, 03:12 PM
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Did Trump say that she should be fired from her job when he, uh, what's the technical term.... fired her from her job?
  #4761  
Old 11-15-2019, 03:17 PM
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Did Trump say that she should be fired from her job when he, uh, what's the technical term.... fired her from her job?
Back in May? I don't know. I wasn't there. You might notice that both Euphonious Polemic's post and mine referenced a TWEET by the President.
  #4762  
Old 11-15-2019, 03:19 PM
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Did Yovanovitch contradict herself?
https://mobile.twitter.com/CBSNews/s...56630038327297
versus
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=...&v=9KNHeAeMZkc
  #4763  
Old 11-15-2019, 03:24 PM
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For what it’s worth

In the closed door session (I read her testimony) she testified that she is scared that continuing malfeasance will cause her to lose her job ,pension and possibly her freedom.
Yes, that is exactly the sort of thing I would expect to be indicative of witness intimidation (unsuccessful intimidation, obviously). I will have to review Mr. Trump's actions and the law before coming to a conclusion though - I am much much more concerned about witness intimidation with regard to the whistleblower though. We've also got earlier potential intimidation with tweets directed to Mr. Cohen and Mr. Manafort.

~Max
  #4764  
Old 11-15-2019, 03:24 PM
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Even Fox News has been critical of that tweet. I can certainly see how she would feel intimidated by it.

However I think it's clear that Trump is really intimidated by her testimony or he wouldn't have felt the need to publicly attack her *as* she was testifying.

We can also really see who the dead enders are at this point by those who are actually trying to defend this awful and idiotic tweet. So the tweet also had that effect.
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  #4765  
Old 11-15-2019, 03:25 PM
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If I can unpack this... she said the Obama administration never brought up Burisma or the Bidens as an issue. At the same time, she appears to have been prepped, presumably by staffers in the Obama administration, for a Republican attack on the Bidens and Burisma during her confirmation hearing.

Is that correct? If so, that's an awfully circular line of reasoning.
  #4766  
Old 11-15-2019, 03:28 PM
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That is most unfortunate, at first glance.

ETA: after reading steronz's post, it makes more sense and doesn't seem to be an issue.

~Max

Last edited by Max S.; 11-15-2019 at 03:29 PM.
  #4767  
Old 11-15-2019, 04:00 PM
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I don't understand how Trump tweeting that he thinks Yovanovitch was bad at her job is supposed to amount to "witness intimidation". He fired her months ago, right? His mentioning of "at the pleasure of the President" can't be construed as a threat because he can't extra-double fire her.
If one believes that once the person in charge of hiring you has fired you, that said person no longer has any ability to cause harm in your life, then perhaps you are right. If however one remembers that the person who hired you is the most powerful person on earth, then one might indeed still feel intimidated.
  #4768  
Old 11-15-2019, 04:09 PM
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If one believes that once the person in charge of hiring you has fired you, that said person no longer has any ability to cause harm in your life, then perhaps you are right. If however one remembers that the person who hired you is the most powerful person on earth, then one might indeed still feel intimidated.
If that most powerful person hadn't been agitating to have his other perceived enemies thrown in prison, one might not feel as intimidated.

However, Schiff made a key point when he talked with Yovanovitch: he asked what the effect would be on other witnesses. Some potential witnesses haven't been fired yet, haven't been removed from their jobs. What message will they reasonably take from reading the President's fact-free rant against a current witness?

Any witness who thinks, "Yeah, but the difference is, I'm good at my job, so there's no way the President will retaliate against me if I testify," is an idiot.
  #4769  
Old 11-15-2019, 04:16 PM
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He didn't just say she was bad at her job. He said she was bad. He also said she was bad news. This is very cryptic and nefarious and can be interpreted in many ways. Of course it's Trump and we're supposed to give him a pass and believe that he was only saying she was bad AT HER JOB ONLY, NOTHING ELSE ABOUT HER IS BAD!!
  #4770  
Old 11-15-2019, 04:24 PM
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Back in May? I don't know. I wasn't there. You might notice that both Euphonious Polemic's post and mine referenced a TWEET by the President.
You aren’t addressing the substance of my post. Try again.
  #4771  
Old 11-15-2019, 04:27 PM
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He didn't just say she was bad at her job. He said she was bad. He also said she was bad news. This is very cryptic and nefarious and can be interpreted in many ways. Of course it's Trump and we're supposed to give him a pass and believe that he was only saying she was bad AT HER JOB ONLY, NOTHING ELSE ABOUT HER IS BAD!!
My bold.

This is important and has been lost sight of in this discussion. This is what the soon-to-be Former President said:
Quote:
Everywhere Marie Yovanovitch went turned bad. She started off in Somalia, how did that go? Then fast forward to Ukraine, where the new Ukrainian President spoke unfavorably about her in my second phone call with him. It is a U.S. President’s absolute right to appoint ambassadors.
"She started off in Somalia. How did that go?"

He's not saying she's bad at her job. He's implying that she was instrumental in causing the crisis in Somalia. That she causes bad things to happen in a country. Of course, he doesn't come right out and say it, because his lack of gonads prevents him from speaking clearly and directly. All he is capable of is sneering and snarking-- "I've heard..." "People are saying..." "It looks like..."

What the ever-loving fuck?
  #4772  
Old 11-15-2019, 04:45 PM
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The testimony is compelling, but I think people have checked out:

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/4...rom-comey-2017

Considerably less viewership than the Comey hearing.

Quote:
Day one of impeachment proceedings was watched by nearly 13.1 million people across multiple broadcast and cable outlets, which was notably lower than other high-profile televised hearings in the Trump era, but on par with Robert Mueller’s testimony on Capitol Hill in July.
The 13,098,000 who tuned in on ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox News, CNN, MSNBC, CSPAN and PBS marks a 32 percent drop from the number of people who watched James Comey’s testimony to the Senate Intelligence Committee in May 2017, which delivered more than 19 million viewers.
About the same as the Mueller testimony.

Quote:
In February, former Trump personal attorney and fixer Michael Cohen's testimony delivered 15.8 million viewers, while 13 million tuned in to see former special counsel Robert Mueller testify before the House Judiciary and Intelligence committees.
But...much, much less a spectacle than Watergate. It's a different era, folks. We don't live in the gatekeeper era anymore; we live in the fakebook era.

Quote:
For context when compared to 2019, 71 percent of Americans watched the Nixon impeachment hearings live, according to Gallup.
Welcome to 2019.
  #4773  
Old 11-15-2019, 04:58 PM
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sps49sd, can you directly respond to these responses to you above? In my mind, the really tear apart the point you made, but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.

Anyway, to the posters here in general, do you think those tweets would actually lead to an additional witness tampering or intimidation charge? Because that would be awesome.
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I think it may as it was so public.
Yeah, on one level it was; but on another level, the person it was target at was testifying at the time the tweet went out, and the America-hating fuckstick could conceivably characterize it as something he did not expect the Ambassador to know about before her testimony was completed, and by interrupting her to read it into the record, Schiff just now made yelling at the TV screen a LOT more interactive than it had ever been before.

Is this a legitimate concern I’m raising? Someone talk me down, please.
  #4774  
Old 11-15-2019, 05:09 PM
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Respectfully, I do not endorse that conclusion.

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Shocking.
  #4775  
Old 11-15-2019, 05:10 PM
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Yeah, on one level it was; but on another level, the person it was target at was testifying at the time the tweet went out, and the America-hating fuckstick could conceivably characterize it as something he did not expect the Ambassador to know about before her testimony was completed, and by interrupting her to read it into the record, Schiff just now made yelling at the TV screen a LOT more interactive than it had ever been before.

Is this a legitimate concern I’m raising? Someone talk me down, please.
"Mr. Senator, I hate to interrupt your fifteenth reading of the U.S. Constitution but Twitter, Inc. has communicated to us that 80% of households in your state have yelled at you, through their television, to shut the fuck up."

Reminds you of Mr. Smith in Washington, doesn't it? When they bring in all the telegrams, "public opinion made to order".

~Max
  #4776  
Old 11-15-2019, 05:15 PM
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Shocking.
Something was lost in communication, I honestly have no idea how you drew the inference that Ambassador Yovanovitch's reputation means nothing or that she doesn't have to worry about violence and harassment. Either I wrote something incorrectly or you misread me.

~Max
  #4777  
Old 11-15-2019, 05:19 PM
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And again, if that very powerful person has already publicly and privately attempted to get his perceived enemies criminally prosecuted, that's a huge fucking bit different.
And he'll keep doing it, because he can. This impeachment trial is already over. It's not going to move the dial. It's not going to make Trump all that less popular than he already is; it might actually light a fire under his base's ass.

It's either recession, major military fuck up, and a massive repudiation of the entire GOP at the polls next year...or end of the American republic as we know it.
  #4778  
Old 11-15-2019, 05:24 PM
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Uhh, this might be a problem for Mr. Trump.

"David Holmes, the aide to diplomat Bill Taylor who overheard President Trump’s conversation with European Union ambassador Gordon Sondland, said that Sondland told the President that Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky would do “anything you ask him to,” and that he confirmed the Ukrainians were going to “do the investigation."

“Sondland told Trump that Zelensky ‘loves your ass,’” Holmes said, according to a copy of his opening statement reviewed by CNN. “I then heard President Trump ask, ‘So, he’s gonna do the investigation?’ Ambassador Sondland replied that ‘He’s gonna do it,’ adding that President Zelensky will do ‘anything you ask him to.’”

Holmes explained that Sondland placed the call to Trump, and he could hear Trump because the call was so loud in the restaurant where they were with two others.

“While Ambassador Sondland’s phone was not on speakerphone, I could hear the President’s voice through the earpiece of the phone. The President’s voice was very loud and recognizable, and Ambassador Sondland held the phone away from his ear for a period of time, presumably because of the loud volume,” Holmes testified.

“Even though I did not take notes of those statements, I have a clear recollection that these statements were made,” Holmes added.

Holmes also confirmed Taylor's testimony about the President’s thoughts on Ukraine, saying he asked Sondland “if it was true that the President did not ‘give a s—t about Ukraine.'”

Holmes said Sondland responded Trump only cares about “big stuff.” When Holmes said that the Ukraine war was big, Sondland responded "'big stuff' that benefits the President, like the Biden investigation that Mr. Giuliani was pushing,” Holmes said."
  #4779  
Old 11-15-2019, 05:33 PM
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Uhh, this might be a problem for Mr. Trump.

"David Holmes, the aide to diplomat Bill Taylor who overheard President Trump’s conversation with European Union ambassador Gordon Sondland, said that Sondland told the President that Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky would do “anything you ask him to,” and that he confirmed the Ukrainians were going to “do the investigation."

“Sondland told Trump that Zelensky ‘loves your ass,’” Holmes said, according to a copy of his opening statement reviewed by CNN. “I then heard President Trump ask, ‘So, he’s gonna do the investigation?’ Ambassador Sondland replied that ‘He’s gonna do it,’ adding that President Zelensky will do ‘anything you ask him to.’”

Holmes explained that Sondland placed the call to Trump, and he could hear Trump because the call was so loud in the restaurant where they were with two others.

“While Ambassador Sondland’s phone was not on speakerphone, I could hear the President’s voice through the earpiece of the phone. The President’s voice was very loud and recognizable, and Ambassador Sondland held the phone away from his ear for a period of time, presumably because of the loud volume,” Holmes testified.

“Even though I did not take notes of those statements, I have a clear recollection that these statements were made,” Holmes added.

Holmes also confirmed Taylor's testimony about the President’s thoughts on Ukraine, saying he asked Sondland “if it was true that the President did not ‘give a s—t about Ukraine.'”

Holmes said Sondland responded Trump only cares about “big stuff.” When Holmes said that the Ukraine war was big, Sondland responded "'big stuff' that benefits the President, like the Biden investigation that Mr. Giuliani was pushing,” Holmes said."
Wow, Sondland really is the gift that keeps on giving, isn't he? I'm embarrassed he's an Oregonian. But I'm glad he's been part of the clown show.
  #4780  
Old 11-15-2019, 05:34 PM
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...
But...much, much less a spectacle than Watergate. It's a different era, folks. We don't live in the gatekeeper era anymore; we live in the fakebook era.



Welcome to 2019.
In the time of Watergate there weren't a million instantaneous sources to watch or listen to the ongoing hearings, let alone a million commentators and pundits to tell you after the fact what transpired and what it meant. It's hard for people who grew up after the first Gulf War in 1990 to imagine a time before CNN created the true 24/7 news cycle. Can any of us even remember a time before the internet and smartphones when you had to buy a newspaper, or listen to scheduled radio/tv broadcasts to find out what was going on?

THAT is a big difference between today's media coverage and Watergate in 1974. People who aren't watching the impeachment hearings on TV can still be listening to live coverage from many places. Or they can read about it later in the day from countless online sources.

It's misleading to draw comparisons with Watergate. With Comey and Mueller, yes. Those comparisons are valid.
  #4781  
Old 11-15-2019, 05:35 PM
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"presumably because of the loud volume"

Or possibly because he wanted everyone to know how important he is.

Or both.
  #4782  
Old 11-15-2019, 05:35 PM
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Here is the full statement. It is quite a read.
  #4783  
Old 11-15-2019, 05:44 PM
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John Roberts, Fox News:
Quote:
Wow....this is really unprecedented. @realDonaldTrump and Amb Yovanovitch are talking to each other in real time through @Twitter and Television... Something I never thought I would ever see.
Not ENTIRELY unprecedented...


(YouTube of scene from Broadcast News [1987] with Albert Brooks, Holly Hunter, and William Hurt)
  #4784  
Old 11-15-2019, 05:49 PM
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Here is the full statement. It is quite a read.
Thank you. It looks it! I'll have to wait for a better transcript, though. I struggled to read the photographed version provided by CNN and had to admit defeat at page 4.
  #4785  
Old 11-15-2019, 06:03 PM
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People who aren't watching the impeachment hearings on TV can still be listening to live coverage from many places. Or they can read about it later in the day from countless online sources.
Right, they'll go home watch a YouTube clip or two, and then it's viral cat video time.

Or Breitbart time.
  #4786  
Old 11-15-2019, 06:10 PM
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Right, they'll go home watch a YouTube clip or two, and then it's viral cat video time.

Or Breitbart time.
It's cat videos for me! Or the Baby Corgis forum on Reddit.
  #4787  
Old 11-15-2019, 06:12 PM
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Right, they'll go home watch a YouTube clip or two, and then it's viral cat video time.

Or Breitbart time.
I was listening on NPR, before and after work.

~Max
  #4788  
Old 11-15-2019, 06:12 PM
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I was listening on NPR, before and after work.

~Max
I, for one, commend you, Mr. S.

I was, too.
  #4789  
Old 11-15-2019, 06:13 PM
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It's cat videos for me! Or the Baby Corgis forum on Reddit.
I'm a sucker for cat videos, too, especially when they're just knocking random shit off of shelves for no other reason than...I'm a fvckin cat.
  #4790  
Old 11-15-2019, 06:18 PM
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https://twitter.com/JohnT15/status/1...456958470?s=19
  #4791  
Old 11-15-2019, 07:05 PM
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Most wont stay glued. They will get highlights and spin. The number of people whose minds are not already made up is few and they are least likely to hang on every minute. Or watch or listen much in real time.

I have no confidence either way how this will impact them but think that anyone else who does is likely overconfident. Give it two weeks.
  #4792  
Old 11-15-2019, 07:25 PM
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Most wont stay glued. They will get highlights and spin. The number of people whose minds are not already made up is few and they are least likely to hang on every minute. Or watch or listen much in real time.

I have no confidence either way how this will impact them but think that anyone else who does is likely overconfident. Give it two weeks.
The only possible game changer I could possibly see at this point is John Bolton. If John Bolton comes out and says, "Look, Mr Chairman, let's cut through the shit. You and I both know my views on your party. I frankly feel like Obama and the Democrats are a bunch of pussies. And I thought that by serving President Trump I'd finally have the chance to work with someone who could put some muscle into American foreign policy. However, as I found out, there is actually something worse than being a pussy; I found out that the President of the United States could actually turn out to be a traitor. Donald Trump is a traitor."

If those words come out of John Bolton's mouth, yes, maybe, possibly, a game changer. Short of that, it's just an extension of Comey and Mueller.
  #4793  
Old 11-15-2019, 07:36 PM
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Those words will not, publicly, come out of Bolton’s mouth, but I’d still be maybe a bit more willing to bet on impeachment support growing than dropping over the next two weeks. I’d bet against Trumps approval getting much below 38 though. And unless it did by a good margin the Senate Republicans are a lock for acquittal.
  #4794  
Old 11-15-2019, 08:03 PM
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Those words will not, publicly, come out of Bolton’s mouth, but I’d still be maybe a bit more willing to bet on impeachment support growing than dropping over the next two weeks. I’d bet against Trumps approval getting much below 38 though. And unless it did by a good margin the Senate Republicans are a lock for acquittal.
Trump comes away from this looking like...not such a nice guy. But that's about as bad as it gets for Trump. We've had 3 years for the public to catch on and become outraged by all of the machinations of the Trump-Russia connections, and there's never been a tipping point and there's not going to be.

Shit, if I were Trump and the GOP, I'm actually looking at this platform as an opportunity to sully the Bidens. Yes, those who have been dutifully keeping up with this realize that the Biden's work in Ukraine wasn't illegal, but even the witnesses are acknowledging bad optics. If Trump's goal was to come out of this smelling like a rose, he failed. But if his goal is to get mud on his opponent's jersey, he will succeed bigly.
  #4795  
Old 11-15-2019, 08:15 PM
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TShit, if I were Trump and the GOP, I'm actually looking at this platform as an opportunity to sully the Bidens. Yes, those who have been dutifully keeping up with this realize that the Biden's work in Ukraine wasn't illegal, but even the witnesses are acknowledging bad optics. If Trump's goal was to come out of this smelling like a rose, he failed. But if his goal is to get mud on his opponent's jersey, he will succeed bigly.
If Trump is out by Christmas, Biden has more than sufficient runway to get past the subject.

The average voter's memory is only about two weeks:

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...tion-forecast/

Note the graph of popular polling. Each time the red and blue lines fly away from one another is right after one of the presidential debates.

Everyone saw Trump speaking and something like 80% of the population ran screaming towards Clinton. And then two weeks passed and they all started to forget. By the time of the next debate, they'd all forgotten again.

If the last debate had been a week closer to the vote, Clinton would have won. People would still remember the humans they were voting on, not just the party.
  #4796  
Old 11-15-2019, 08:25 PM
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It has to do with whether these allegations are facts, and if Schiff is lying about his contacts then how much trust he deserves.
Already corroborated, sugar beet.

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk
  #4797  
Old 11-15-2019, 08:31 PM
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... This impeachment trial is already over. It's not going to move the dial. It's not going to make Trump all that less popular than he already is; it might actually light a fire under his base's ass. ...
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Most wont stay glued. They will get highlights and spin. The number of people whose minds are not already made up is few and they are least likely to hang on every minute. Or watch or listen much in real time. ...
I don't disagree with either of you, but I do think there could be some softening of Trump's support as that part of the public paying attention sees the weakness of Trump's position. The arguments excusing his conduct are poor, and those wielding the arguments are not coming off well.

Look at the reaction of the committee Republicans when the hearing audience bursts into applause for Yovanovitch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B06Vlnw4PY8

Every day of public hearings so far, the Republicans have displayed petulance, boorishness, and a marked ineptitude:

Quote:
...When Asha Rangappa (a former FBI special agent) tweeted, “is Steve Castor really the best lawyer the GOP could get?,” CNN legal analyst and former federal prosecutor Renato Mariotti responded, “to be fair to him, he doesn’t have much to work with. ...
https://www.rawstory.com/2019/11/a-t...embarrassment/

Every day of public hearings so far, the Republican performance has raised the question 'who on earth would volunteer to be identified with these malicious bunglers?'

And the hearings are just getting started.
  #4798  
Old 11-15-2019, 08:34 PM
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Geeze you guys--David Holmes' testimony.

Sondland: Imagine paying a million bucks just to put yourself in a position where you have to fuck Trump over or fuck yourself over even harder. That guy is so deep in the suck.

...and he paid to be there. Just wow.

And there are numerous witnesses who can corroborate that phone call, and attest to it being Trump on the line, speaking so loud all could hear.
At this point, does Sondland even testify next week? Very telling Trump is actively distancing himself from even knowing who Sondland is.
Every GOP talking point about whistleblowers and second hand info are going to implode by Wednesday. Office pool on what the next talking point will be? Sondland is a Democrat?
  #4799  
Old 11-15-2019, 08:40 PM
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I don't disagree with either of you, but I do think there could be some softening of Trump's support as that part of the public paying attention sees the weakness of Trump's position. The arguments excusing his conduct are poor, and those wielding the arguments are not coming off well.

Look at the reaction of the committee Republicans when the hearing audience bursts into applause for Yovanovitch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B06Vlnw4PY8

Every day of public hearings so far, the Republicans have displayed petulance, boorishness, and a marked ineptitude:


https://www.rawstory.com/2019/11/a-t...embarrassment/

Every day of public hearings so far, the Republican performance has raised the question 'who on earth would volunteer to be identified with these malicious bunglers?'

And the hearings are just getting started.
It's a news cycle; it's a cycle of bad news. It's longer than Comey and Mueller, so the damage will be more sustained for a while, but we're running out of time.

Allow me to explain:

The Democrats have an urgent desire to get this thing done by the end of the year. Why? Because some of the front-running members of the primary are senators, who would have to take time out of their campaigns to attend the impeachment trial -- right before the primary. And Biden is going to continue to get smeared just as Trump is getting smeared.

It's not just Trump that's on trial; it's Biden as well. It's the House Democrats. Every day there isn't a smoking gun or a knockout punch, regardless of Trump's gradual popularity decline, is a day that he withstands the forces against him.

In the end, this will all come down to the mood of the country.
  #4800  
Old 11-15-2019, 08:53 PM
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...The Democrats have an urgent desire to get this thing done by the end of the year. Why? Because some of the front-running members of the primary are senators, who would have to take time out of their campaigns to attend the impeachment trial -- right before the primary. ...
Getting the House component done before the end of the year won't help the Dem-candidate Senators at all, as McConnell will be free to drag out the Senate trial through week after week of the primaries. Just keeping the trial going during a mere eight weeks (February through March) will keep the Democratic candidates from actively campaigning in TWENTY-NINE state contests (though of course they'll still be on those ballots).

McConnell can keep it going for eight weeks with no sweat. And with the majority of the witnesses called being people who can "testify" to issues not only about Biden but about Warren, Sanders, Buttigieg, and anyone else at the top of the polls, the double-purpose of smearing Trump's opponents can be accomplished.

So, I'm certainly not arguing against your well-known position that the economy and consequent voter-mood are crucial, here.

I'm just saying that what we've seen so far of the public hearings will not be giving Trump's side happy feelings, no matter what they say on camera. Independents are not going to be won over to Trump's side by these hearings.

Last edited by Sherrerd; 11-15-2019 at 08:57 PM.
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