Straight Dope Message Board

[Lumpy]

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...ns-wait-until/

Umm... regardless of what you think of the issue in question, imho that's pretty damn cynical- and a travesty of democracy. Also I'm reminded of when I asked about this scenario in the abstract, What elected official most turned out to be a "Trojan Horse"? 1

[Wesley Clark]

I don't think democratic voters are psychologically like republican voters. The democrats couldn't lie as baldly and shamelessly as republican politicians do and not expect pushback from their own voters because of it.

Under Obama the most honest and thoughtful criticisms of his administration came from his parties base who disagreed with him on various kinds of policy. The GOP party base is an irrational cult who worship a mentally ill con man. Its not the same thing. 2

[Rick Kitchen]

Washington Times. Such a reliable source. 3

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Originally Posted by Rick Kitchen

Washington Times. Such a reliable source.

Apparently people were laughing when she said it. I've heard of this thing called "joke." Is that what she did? Did she "joke"? Is that why they "laughed"? 4

[Locrian]

Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness

Apparently people were laughing when she said it. I've heard of this thing called "joke." Is that what she did? Did she "joke"? Is that why they "laughed"?

Of course! That’s why it’s a joke when Dotard says he’ll shoot someone on fifth Ave. Comedy gold in politics these days. 5

[Euphonious Polemic]

She's the fucking host of a teevee show.

Sorry, but only Republican Presidents think that the host of a fucking teevee show is competent to give political advice. 6

[bobot]

Originally Posted by Lumpy

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...ns-wait-until/

Umm... regardless of what you think of the issue in question, imho that's pretty damn cynical- and a travesty of democracy. Also I'm reminded of when I asked about this scenario in the abstract, What elected official most turned out to be a "Trojan Horse"?

How about a quote from the article? Even a short one. Is that really too much? "A travesty of democracy". Wow, that sounds bad! 7

[septimus]

Originally Posted by Lumpy

washingtontimes.com ...

Washington Times? Oh my. Start a thread in IMHO if you don't know which websites provide competent news.

The thread is in "Elections." What office is Joy Never-heard-of-her running for?

Originally Posted by Lumpy

... and a travesty of democracy....

We're surrounded by high Federal officials who have been accused of felonies, and have definitely committed frauds and treasons. But the concern is a minor TV personality who suggests that someone tell a white lie?

Got it. I guess. 8

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Originally Posted by Locrian

Of course! That’s why it’s a joke when Dotard says he’ll shoot someone on fifth Ave. Comedy gold in politics these days.

...but that IS a joke. A dumb joke, but a joke. What are you getting at? 9

[BeepKillBeep]

Right now the Republican party is becoming increasingly authoritarian and flirting with fascism, all to the cheers of their supporters. One of the greatest dangers to the USA is if the Democrats decide they need to go the same route to compete. So while the joke from the OP is a joke, it also presents one of the real political dangers in the USA right now. That's why the best thing a Republican supporter could have done in the midterm election, and could do in the election next year, is to vote Democrat or if they find that they cannot do that, then do not vote at all. At the same time, they need to contact the Republican leadership and tell them to knock it off with the proto-fascism stuff. Your vote is the only way to send a message. If the Republican party gets crushed in an election, then they'll reform themselves. But why should they reform when they're winning elections? Why not continue down the road to authoritarianism when their suckers supporters are going to cheer them all the while. 10

[Typo Negative]

Originally Posted by Locrian

Of course! That’s why it’s a joke when Dotard says he’ll shoot someone on fifth Ave. Comedy gold in politics these days.

You do realize that Behar is a comedian, right? 11

[Shodan]

Democrats already lie - this is hardly something new that Behar just thought up.

Regards,
Shodan 12

[Ravenman]

Originally Posted by Shodan

Democrats already lie .....

Cite that he is a Democrat? 13

[rock party]

Republicans have an entire machine in place to deliver their lies. Fox of course, but three of my towns talk radio stations are all Republican lies and bullshit 24 hours a day. Then factor in the seven religious channels which are shills for the right and they even put God's will behind their bullshit. The left really doesn't have such a misinformation machine out there that cranks out lies and deception on a non stop basis. 14

[Buck Godot]

Originally Posted by bobot

How about a quote from the article? Even a short one. Is that really too much? "A travesty of democracy". Wow, that sounds bad!

Here is the money quote.

“If you are going to take people’s guns away, wait until you get elected and then take them away,” Ms. Behar said to laughs and clapping from the studio audience. “Don’t tell them ahead of time.”

That isn't even advocating that Democrats lie, just that they be politically savvy about broadcasting potentially unpopular views.


Equating this with Republicans bald faced repeated lies is a bit of a farce. Did Trump campaign on separating children from their families and leaving California to burn? I don't recall it. 15

[Little Nemo]

Originally Posted by Wesley Clark

I don't think democratic voters are psychologically like republican voters. The democrats couldn't lie as baldly and shamelessly as republican politicians do and not expect pushback from their own voters because of it.

I agree. Voters who like being lied to already have a party they can vote for. The Democrats shouldn't try to compete for those voters. Democrats should stick with the voters who can handle the truth. 16

[bobot]

Originally Posted by Buck Godot

Here is the money quote.


That isn't even advocating that Democrats lie, just that they be politically savvy about broadcasting potentially unpopular views.


Equating this with Republicans bald faced repeated lies is a bit of a farce. Did Trump campaign on separating children from their families and leaving California to burn? I don't recall it.

Correct. He ran on the lies of building a huge wall on the border (that another country would pay us to build! Ha!), and replacing Obamacare with something better and cheaper. 17

[Akaj]

Originally Posted by Buck Godot

Here is the money quote.


That isn't even advocating that Democrats lie, just that they be politically savvy about broadcasting potentially unpopular views.


Equating this with Republicans bald faced repeated lies is a bit of a farce. Did Trump campaign on separating children from their families and leaving California to burn? I don't recall it.

It's an actual lie hiding behind a joke about lying.

The real lie is perpetuating the fiction that Dems want to take away people's guns. Yes, Beto said that, but he's out of the race. The GOP spread the same shit about Obama, and how many guns were confiscated from law-abiding citizens during his eight years in office? (Hint: it rhymes with "hero.") 18

[Akaj]

Originally Posted by Akaj

It's an actual lie hiding behind a joke about lying.

The real lie is perpetuating the fiction that Dems want to take away people's guns. Yes, Beto said that, but he's out of the race. The GOP spread the same shit about Obama, and how many guns were confiscated from law-abiding citizens during his eight years in office? (Hint: it rhymes with "hero.")

Missed the edit window -- I should have said, how many non-prohibited guns were confiscated from law-abiding citizens during his eight years in office? I'm sure some patriot somewhere was busted with a rocket launcher or some such. 19

[Lumpy]

Originally Posted by Rick Kitchen

Washington Times. Such a reliable source.

Are you claiming that wasn't said on an episode of The View?

Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness

Apparently people were laughing when she said it. I've heard of this thing called "joke." Is that what she did? Did she "joke"? Is that why they "laughed"?

Yeah, abso-fuckin-lutely hilarious.

Originally Posted by Locrian

Of course! That’s why it’s a joke when Dotard says he’ll shoot someone on fifth Ave. Comedy gold in politics these days.

Maybe someone should "joke" about how not only should abortion be illegal, but that women who illegally abort should be put to death as murderers. J.K.!!!

Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic

She's the fucking host of a teevee show.

Sorry, but only Republican Presidents think that the host of a fucking teevee show is competent to give political advice.

You would hope so...

Originally Posted by septimus

Washington Times? Oh my. Start a thread in IMHO if you don't know which websites provide competent news.

The thread is in "Elections." What office is Joy Never-heard-of-her running for?



We're surrounded by high Federal officials who have been accused of felonies, and have definitely committed frauds and treasons. But the concern is a minor TV personality who suggests that someone tell a white lie?

Got it. I guess.

Try a filthy, black, necrotic gangrenous lie. 20

[Chisquirrel]

Originally Posted by Lumpy

Try a filthy, black, necrotic gangrenous lie.

You must REALLY hate this administration. Or the early-21st century one that lied to get the US into a war that killed hundreds of thousands of people and spawned yet another terrorist organization.

Or is it only bad when a comedian SUGGESTS Democrats do it? 21

[Chisquirrel]

Originally Posted by Lumpy

Maybe someone should "joke" about how not only should abortion be illegal, but that women who illegally abort should be put to death as murderers. J.K.!!!

Missed this lovely bit. I'm glad you think it's funny when people say things that lead to other people being killed. It says everything I need to know about the worth of your opinion. 22

[JohnT]

:researches Joy Behar:

:researches 'The View':

Really, who cares if some rando with a part-time gig on a TV show gives stupid advice? What's the purpose of this thread - to inform people that there's someone named Joy Behar and she says stupid things?

Well... congrats? 23

[Typo Negative]

I bet Lumpy is fun at parties. 24

[CairoCarol]

Sometimes the line between "marketing" and "lying" can get a little blurry. It seems to me that any honest person of any political persuasion who is genuinely interested in working with those of opposing viewpoints, without demonizing them, should be able to admit that this is true and that politicians of ALL political stripes do it. Now, we're all going to draw that line differently depending on our values. Shodan has selected a highly partisan diatribe to prove his point that Obama "lied." I would say that the Obama crowd "marketed." But I can understand how others, with views like Shodan's, would see it differently.

Shodan, the test for you is: can you concede that Republicans (as a general matter - let's leave the specifics of Trump and his cronies out of it) also blur the line between marketing and lying sometimes? And that what a Republican campaign truly sees as being persuasive could be interpreted differently by someone who doesn't share their views?

I'm interested to see whether you can still detect shades of gray. It seems like very few people on either side of the aisle can these days. 25

[septimus]

I forget: Is Rush Limbaugh a stand-up sit-down comic, or is he chief mentor for the Republican Party? Either way he was in the news recently for admitting to a lie. He admitted that Republicans were never worried about deficit spending: all the deprecations and defecations were just a showy way of attacking D's.

Originally Posted by JohnT

What's the purpose of this thread - to inform people that there's someone named Joy Behar and she says stupid things?

It's called Tu Quoque. We Americans needn't worry about Trump selling out America or its allies anymore; and needn't worry about children in cages; nor about racists encouraged to commit violence. We needn't trouble our minds about the First Son-in-Law condoning the assassination of a U.S. jornalist; Turkey's Erdogan taping that Kushner call; and using it to blackmail Trump into allowing Turks to massacre Kurds. We needn't worry that Giuliani is probably a crook, that Betsy DeVos is a crook, that the entire Trump family is crooked. We needn't trouble our little heads with any of that anymore.

Why not? Why are Trump's crimes irrelevant now? Because some obscure comic with a '(D)' told a joke. 26

[Velocity]

Originally Posted by Rick Kitchen

Washington Times. Such a reliable source.

The camera doesn't lie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLE5LJRAZo4

(First 10 seconds) 27

[Velocity]

So:

1. Yes, Behar did say that - it's indisputable, right there on video.
2. She's simply espousing common-sense strategy. A bit Machiavellian, yes, but she's correct that not everything you want to do in politics is going to be palatable to voters, so it is politically suicidal to say things out loud that don't need to be said out loud. Behar is perfectly correct.
3. Saying "Yes, but Republicans lie even more" is kind of a hijack of the thread. The thread isn't about the R's.
4. One wonders if Behar should have........taken her own advice to heart. Maybe don't say out loud that "you should wait until elected to take guns away?" An inner repeating loop.... 28

[Banquet Bear]

Originally Posted by Velocity

So:

1. Yes, Behar did say that - it's indisputable, right there on video.
2. She's simply espousing common-sense strategy. A bit Machiavellian, yes, but she's correct that not everything you want to do in politics is going to be palatable to voters, so it is politically suicidal to say things out loud that don't need to be said out loud. Behar is perfectly correct.
3. Saying "Yes, but Republicans lie even more" is kind of a hijack of the thread. The thread isn't about the R's.
4. One wonders if Behar should have........taken her own advice to heart. Maybe don't say out loud that "you should wait until elected to take guns away?" An inner repeating loop....

...5. Why are you so concerned about what a talk-show host (who gets paid to say "talk-show things") said on a talk-show? 29

[Defensive Indifference]

Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic

She's the fucking host of a teevee show.

Sorry, but only Republican Presidents think that the host of a fucking teevee show is competent to give political advice.

And only Republican voters think the host of a TV show is competent to be the President.

It's too bad Clothahump is no longer with us. This would have provided an amusing diversion in the Stupid Liberal Idea of the Day thread. 30

[septimus]

nm 31

[septimus]

nm 32

[Shodan]

Originally Posted by CairoCarol

Sometimes the line between "marketing" and "lying" can get a little blurry. It seems to me that any honest person of any political persuasion who is genuinely interested in working with those of opposing viewpoints, without demonizing them, should be able to admit that this is true and that politicians of ALL political stripes do it. Now, we're all going to draw that line differently depending on our values. Shodan has selected a highly partisan diatribe to prove his point that Obama "lied." I would say that the Obama crowd "marketed." But I can understand how others, with views like Shodan's, would see it differently.

Shodan, the test for you is: can you concede that Republicans (as a general matter - let's leave the specifics of Trump and his cronies out of it) also blur the line between marketing and lying sometimes? And that what a Republican campaign truly sees as being persuasive could be interpreted differently by someone who doesn't share their views?

I'm interested to see whether you can still detect shades of gray. It seems like very few people on either side of the aisle can these days.

Sure, both sides do it. Except when my side does it, it's marketing, or spin. When your side does it, it is outright lies.

It might be interesting to see if anyone else on the SDMB can

1. Leave the specifics of Trump out of it,
2. admit that sometimes Republicans are engaging in marketing rather than lies, and especially
3. admit that Democrats do the same thing as Republicans but it gets labeled differently based on political points of view.

I will guess No.

As in, Rush Limbaugh counts because he has a talk show, and Behar doesn't count, because she has a talk show, and AOC doesn't count because she is just marketing, and Obama doesn't count, because whataboutism is invalid. Except when I do it.

Regards,
Shodan 33

[MEBuckner]

Originally Posted by septimus

It's called Tu Quoque.

Alanis Morissette needs to see this thread.

It's like a bunch of people who are engaging in classic tu quoque arguments accusing the person they're arguing against of making a tu quoque argument...

The meter needs work, but that's why she gets paid the big bucks. 34

[Buck Godot]

Just to be clear, when I am going to talk to the bank office to negotiate a equity loan, and my wife advises me that before I go in I should take off my Bally's Casino baseball cap, she's committing credit fraud right? 35

[Yankees 1996 Champs]

This is why Democrats are in trouble with Middle America.....

Guns are part of American culture


Democrats should not run on gun confiscations.

Background checks, etc.

Even if you "get rid" of AR-15s, there will be loopholes. 36

[bobot]

Confounded loopholes. I HATE loopholes! 37

[Acsenray]

Originally Posted by Yankees 1996 Champs

This is why Democrats are in trouble with Middle America.....

Guns are part of American culture

About half of Americans, indeed, Middle Americans, don't include guns as part of their culture. This is not about what societal segment's culture is "American" or and what isn't. 38

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Originally Posted by Velocity

So:

1. Yes, Behar did say that - it's indisputable, right there on video.
2. She's simply espousing common-sense strategy. A bit Machiavellian, yes, but she's correct that not everything you want to do in politics is going to be palatable to voters, so it is politically suicidal to say things out loud that don't need to be said out loud. Behar is perfectly correct.

No. She is joking. It's a hybrid of self-deprecating humor, and pretending to be the terrible person that your political opponent thinks you are. It's a little like Ingraham drinking a steak through a straw.

I won't vouch for the hilarity of Behar's joke, but it's ridiculous to treat it as anything other than a joke, to say, SEE? SEE?!?!?!?! THEY WANT TO TAKE AWAY OUR GUNS!!?!?!?!?!!!one!

No, folks: that hysteria is what she's making fun of. 39

[Chisquirrel]

Originally Posted by Yankees 1996 Champs

This is why Democrats are in trouble with Middle America.....

Guns are part of American culture


Democrats should not run on gun confiscations.

Background checks, etc.

Even if you "get rid" of AR-15s, there will be loopholes.

The only Democrat that said anything serious about confiscating guns has already dropped out. You can keep arguing about it, but it's a non-issue. 40

[Acsenray]

So long as I can remember, Joy Behar's profession has been as a comedian, and now a television host. So, first guess, her comment was meant to be funny and entertaining. No? 41

[Velocity]

Why do people try to dismiss it as joking? She is promoting a perfectly logical and rational strategy. If you want to do something you consider to be necessary-but-unpopular, don't trumpet in advance that you'll do it. Wait until you get elected first, otherwise you are jeopardizing your very election itself. The saying: "Don't mock the alligator until you are across the stream." 42

[Acsenray]

Is Joy Behar running for office? Has she ever run for office? 43

[Miller]

Originally Posted by Velocity

Why do people try to dismiss it as joking?

Rationalism? 44

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Originally Posted by Velocity

Why do people try to dismiss it as joking?

I finally got to watch it. She's cracking up as she says it. Why the hell would anyone try to act like she was serious?

Consider something else: a serious promoter of the strategy of lying about your strategy would not admit to using this strategy. The fact that she's saying it out loud means she's not seriously promoting it.

This is just another absurd "sky is falling!" moment from conservatives, desperately trying to show that liberals lie too. Of course liberals lie sometimes, but this ain't one of them. 45