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  #32601  
Old 05-15-2019, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
Ok. I forgot, disagreeing with someone who lives in New Zealand about what "American Values" are is trolling.

Whatever man. You be you. Last I read on this board, New Zealand is a tyrannical, shit-hole country anyway.
...you didn't disagree. You lied about what I said. Twice. Fuck off troll.
  #32602  
Old 05-15-2019, 09:38 PM
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...you didn't disagree. You lied about what I said. Twice. Fuck off troll.
Did I? I don't believe I said that you said anything. Please point it out. You probably can't. Similar to those who can't point out how the US is an "authoritative state".
  #32603  
Old 05-15-2019, 09:42 PM
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You know I've been called a chicken little...
Chicken Little specifically predicted the sky would fall. You, on the other hand, have avoided any specifics, just vague warnings that things will get really, really bad, and claiming every headline as proof of your prescience. You haven't predicted anything, so please stop.
  #32604  
Old 05-15-2019, 09:46 PM
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Sure, but that's not what the rule says. It clearly doesn't matter how fluent you are in another language, if for some reason you can't communicate in English, it is taken into account. I don't have a problem with removing that part.
You may be right. Me, I'd like to learn more about how the thing made its way into the qualifying criteria in the first place, and maybe something about how it's been being applied before deciding whether I do.
  #32605  
Old 05-15-2019, 09:50 PM
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You may be right. Me, I'd like to learn more about how the thing made its way into the qualifying criteria in the first place, and maybe something about how it's been being applied before deciding whether I do.
Sure. That's why there is a public comment phase.
  #32606  
Old 05-15-2019, 10:11 PM
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So it's sort of the Bizarro Peter Principle: Incompetent employees will continue to be promoted within the administration, but at some point they will be promoted into positions for which their incompetence can provide maximum usefulness for their worthless boss. Maybe we could call it the Covfefe Principle.
I think a more descriptive title would be "The Covfefe Corollary to the Peter Principle."
  #32607  
Old 05-15-2019, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Walken After Midnight View Post
So, the White House is asking all the people banned from Twitter, Facebook etc for extremist hate speech to contact them.

Can you imagine the hullabaloo if Obama had even suggested something even remotely similar?

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Trump is an authoritarian. He doesn't want the truth; he wants loyalty. Telling an unflattering truth is disloyal.

It's Trump's version of The Emperor's New Clothes. In this case, it's The President's Constitution.


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No, actually, I do. Quite familiar with them. Spent considerable time in authoritarian states. There are different degrees. The interesting thing is that for the most part, people living in authoritarian states continue living life. The difference is, they just can't challenge the government and change things as easily when they realize that their government is corrupt and incompetent. For the average person who keeps their mouth shut and scrapes by? A normal life, really. Poor maybe, but otherwise 'normal' poor. But for those who dare to challenge the authoritarian and who get attention? Well that's a different story. They just...disappear.

Tell me, what is your experience in an authoritarian state?

I've had a few experiences with living in an authoritarian state. First, I lived in South Korea under the first President Park. As you say, most people went about their daily mission (make money, feed the family, survive). Those who thought they could challenge the government generally didn't have a good time of it.

Next, I lived in Guangdong Province, China. The city I lived in is considered small by Chinese standards (~5,000,000). Almost every day for a couple of months, I saw protests in the park near City Hall. They were very low-key protests. It wasn't until my next stint in China that the protests went high-key and the troops were sent in (People's Armed Police, not the People's Liberation Army) and a couple of people died. The upshot of the protests was that, besides the deaths, key people in the city government and local party apparatus were prosecuted or otherwise disciplined under Xi's anti-corruption drive. If China's liberal in anything, it's certainly in the application of capital punishment. That tends to put a damper on sticking your neck out. And there is rampant censorship.

Finally, I'm living in Beijing and that's even more authoritarian than the far south. First, there are not any local elections. Second, the city government/party apparatus is fond of announcing "big events" and attendant to said events is martial law in various places in the city. Of course, there are other things in daily life that show it is authoritarian: opaque judiciary, lack of actual input in legislative issues, requirement to have a hukou for such basic things as education, renting an apartment or house, and even for medical care. Of course there is also rampant censorship, including WeChat and QQ messaging services.
  #32608  
Old 05-15-2019, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
...of course they will use it to challenge Roe vs Wade. But its law now. That matters. This isn't a game of fucking chess. This won't end no matter what way the Supremes rule because they will do what they did with the "Muslim ban" and just work around the rules. Or even just ignore it.
But this isn't any different than what's been going on for the last 40 years. The conservative states pass laws that nibble at the edges of Roe vs Wade and then they usually get struck down by the courts. They're just trying again hoping that Kavanaugh gives them the edge. But until the Supreme Court overturns Roe vs. Wade, none of these new laws are going to take effect. I agree with you that it's not going to end, but it's nothing new.

And actually, now that I think about it, I disagree with your assertion that they are winning by tearing down what our country was built on and rebuilding it as a white supremacist, god-fearing country. Unfortunately, our country was founded as a white supremacist country. It took us 90 years to stop owning people. Then it took another 60 before women were allowed to vote. It took 40 more years before we got serious about allowing black people to vote. And for blacks and whites to marry. But since then - the women's liberation movement, gay rights, gay marriage, transgender rights; change is coming faster and faster. Progressives are winning. Conservatives are backed into a corner and they are dangerous right now - we have to keep fighting. But progressives are winning.

I grew up in a small town during the 60s and 70s. I didn't know any black people. I didn't think I knew any gay people (I was wrong). I laughed at and told jokes about black people and gay people (I was wrong). Then I went to college and met black students. My best friend told me he was gay. Gradually my view of the world changed and I began overcoming my prejudices, so as I got more out into the world and began meeting people from lots of other kinds of cultures, I was better able to accept all those challenges to my initial small world view. Contrast that with my sons who are in high school right now, and different cultures mixed together is their default. They don't have to get over their prejudices, because they didn't have them to start with. That's how I know the progressives are winning.

So, yes, we started as a white supremacist country, but we've been trying, and succeeding, from the beginning to change that. Yes, it's going too slow, and yes, some conservatives are trying to push things back to the way they were, but there are too many different kinds of people saying fuck that, we like the gains we've made and we want more. The situation today is kind of like the Battle of the Bulge. The conservatives have made a strong attack which has pushed the lines back. But the progressives have the bigger, more diverse army and we can, will and must win this war.
  #32609  
Old 05-15-2019, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve McQwark View Post
But this isn't any different than what's been going on for the last 40 years. The conservative states pass laws that nibble at the edges of Roe vs Wade and then they usually get struck down by the courts. They're just trying again hoping that Kavanaugh gives them the edge. But until the Supreme Court overturns Roe vs. Wade, none of these new laws are going to take effect. I agree with you that it's not going to end, but it's nothing new.

And actually, now that I think about it, I disagree with your assertion that they are winning by tearing down what our country was built on and rebuilding it as a white supremacist, god-fearing country. Unfortunately, our country was founded as a white supremacist country. It took us 90 years to stop owning people. Then it took another 60 before women were allowed to vote. It took 40 more years before we got serious about allowing black people to vote. And for blacks and whites to marry. But since then - the women's liberation movement, gay rights, gay marriage, transgender rights; change is coming faster and faster. Progressives are winning. Conservatives are backed into a corner and they are dangerous right now - we have to keep fighting. But progressives are winning.

I grew up in a small town during the 60s and 70s. I didn't know any black people. I didn't think I knew any gay people (I was wrong). I laughed at and told jokes about black people and gay people (I was wrong). Then I went to college and met black students. My best friend told me he was gay. Gradually my view of the world changed and I began overcoming my prejudices, so as I got more out into the world and began meeting people from lots of other kinds of cultures, I was better able to accept all those challenges to my initial small world view. Contrast that with my sons who are in high school right now, and different cultures mixed together is their default. They don't have to get over their prejudices, because they didn't have them to start with. That's how I know the progressives are winning.

So, yes, we started as a white supremacist country, but we've been trying, and succeeding, from the beginning to change that. Yes, it's going too slow, and yes, some conservatives are trying to push things back to the way they were, but there are too many different kinds of people saying fuck that, we like the gains we've made and we want more. The situation today is kind of like the Battle of the Bulge. The conservatives have made a strong attack which has pushed the lines back. But the progressives have the bigger, more diverse army and we can, will and must win this war.
Prescriptivist checking in: Please try to avoid using the term "conservatives" when speaking (posting) about reactionaries. Especially the ones as radical as those to whom you refer. The Language virtually groans under the strain generated by the paradox.

Last edited by kaylasdad99; 05-15-2019 at 11:12 PM.
  #32610  
Old 05-15-2019, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve McQwark View Post
But this isn't any different than what's been going on for the last 40 years. The conservative states pass laws that nibble at the edges of Roe vs Wade and then they usually get struck down by the courts. They're just trying again hoping that Kavanaugh gives them the edge. But until the Supreme Court overturns Roe vs. Wade, none of these new laws are going to take effect. I agree with you that it's not going to end, but it's nothing new.
...they aren't "nibbling at the edges" of Roe vs Wade. They are trying to steamroll right over the top of it. The game has changed. This isn't the "same thing" that has been happening over the last 40 years. This is a significant acceleration. I have no fucking idea how any of this is going to play out. But as the Slate article I posted pointed out:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LILI LOOFBOUROW
The Georgia bill in particular reflects the cost of letting individual instances of Republican overstepping go unchallenged in the name of bipartisanship. (I’m not saying that it would have been easy to challenge, or that no one has.) But cheats and transgressions accrue like compound interest, and the technical wins Republicans gained and keep gaming have given them a stranglehold. That most Americans didn’t see this as a crisis isn’t shocking: There’s nothing Americans like less than detail-oriented bureaucracy. A lot of us confuse that impatience with an ability to see through B.S.; there’s a lamentable tendency to see procedural violations as dull or unimportant. This is dismissiveness at worst and civic confusion at best, but it has led many of us to think that the citizens’ groups and organizations that have been calling attention to these violations—and bringing lawsuits and doing their best in this whack-a-mole fight to stop a takeover by an extremist minority—are overreacting.
They aren't overreacting. I am not overreacting. This is a goddamn emergency. "Nibbling?" I mean what the fuck?

Quote:
And actually, now that I think about it, I disagree with your assertion that they are winning by tearing down what our country was built on and rebuilding it as a white supremacist, god-fearing country. Unfortunately, our country was founded as a white supremacist country. It took us 90 years to stop owning people. Then it took another 60 before women were allowed to vote. It took 40 more years before we got serious about allowing black people to vote. And for blacks and whites to marry. But since then - the women's liberation movement, gay rights, gay marriage, transgender rights; change is coming faster and faster. Progressives are winning. Conservatives are backed into a corner and they are dangerous right now - we have to keep fighting. But progressives are winning.
Progressives are complacent. Women's liberation came about because women stepped up a fought for their rights. Gay marriage and gay rights came about because gay people came out (literally) and fought for those rights. And the battle for transgender rights isn't even close to "being won." All those hard-fought battles can be overturned at the stroke of a pen. We are watching that happen right now.

Progressives aren't winning. The people that want to take away women's rights and gay rights and transgender rights are not going to go away. Trump still has 46% approval rating. (Obama, at the same time in his term only had 44% approval) Progressives aren't winning because several states have just signed into law restrictive abortion bills. They aren't winning because transgender people can no longer join the military. They aren't winning because they are on the defensive. And they will always be on the defensive and the best they will ever be able to do is to marginalise the voices that seek to silence them.


Quote:
I grew up in a small town during the 60s and 70s. I didn't know any black people. I didn't think I knew any gay people (I was wrong). I laughed at and told jokes about black people and gay people (I was wrong). Then I went to college and met black students. My best friend told me he was gay. Gradually my view of the world changed and I began overcoming my prejudices, so as I got more out into the world and began meeting people from lots of other kinds of cultures, I was better able to accept all those challenges to my initial small world view. Contrast that with my sons who are in high school right now, and different cultures mixed together is their default. They don't have to get over their prejudices, because they didn't have them to start with. That's how I know the progressives are winning.
Congratulations on "being woke." Unfortunately that doesn't fucking matter if the people that "aren't woke" control the administration, the senate and the federal courts.

Quote:
So, yes, we started as a white supremacist country, but we've been trying, and succeeding, from the beginning to change that. Yes, it's going too slow, and yes, some conservatives are trying to push things back to the way they were, but there are too many different kinds of people saying fuck that, we like the gains we've made and we want more. The situation today is kind of like the Battle of the Bulge. The conservatives have made a strong attack which has pushed the lines back. But the progressives have the bigger, more diverse army and we can, will and must win this war.
The "conservatives" are playing fucking dirty and the "centerists" are too far up their own arses to realize what they are doing. The progressives should be winning. They are bigger and more diverse. But the progressives are being fought by both the "centerists" and the "conservatives." The centerists keep telling the progressives to "shut up we want to win the marginal Trump supporter." The centerists need a fucking wake-up-call.

This isn't the "Battle of the Bulge." This isn't a traditional war and the metaphor doesn't fit whats actually going on. They control the Federal Government, the Senate, they are packing the Federal Courts at an unprecedented rate. And its the last one that will won't be able to be fixed readily, even if Trump gets kicked out of office in 2020. And heaven forbid something happens to Ginsberg.
  #32611  
Old 05-16-2019, 07:06 AM
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I've had a few experiences with living in an authoritarian state. First, I lived in South Korea under the first President Park. As you say, most people went about their daily mission (make money, feed the family, survive). Those who thought they could challenge the government generally didn't have a good time of it.
People could adapt to living in an authoritarian state. What people have a harder time adapting to is the idea that a corrupt regime takes your hard-earned tax money to enrich themselves and their cronies, allows the businesses you buy from to cheat you blind, allows the companies you work for to cheat you out of income, allows the factories and mines your son/uncle/father/uncle works for to literally kill them, and that there just isn't damn much you or anyone can do about it short of rebellion. As you say, people who challenge the government generally don't have a good time of it. At least in America, we have elections in which people can decide who gets to run things, but in China there's really no such thing. And in Russia and other places, there are "elections" but they're kind of a joke.

When I say that America's becoming more authoritarian, I don't mean that it's necessarily going to turn into Saudi Arabia or North Korea, but it could become a LOT more like, say, Turkey or Russia, where we have democracy in theory, but in reality it is a democracy that is highly flawed and suspect. People would still live life, eat out at restaurants, spend money as they please, even vote. But our ability to get corrupt people out of power would be seriously undermined, and it would have noticeable consequences.

It takes collective outrage to push bad people out of power, and even then, it doesn't guarantee that things will get better. You have to have people who can actually run the government and keep everyone's electricity on and water running.

Last edited by asahi; 05-16-2019 at 07:11 AM.
  #32612  
Old 05-16-2019, 07:41 AM
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Prescriptivist checking in: Please try to avoid using the term "conservatives" when speaking (posting) about reactionaries. Especially the ones as radical as those to whom you refer. The Language virtually groans under the strain generated by the paradox.
How about 'asshole?' Can we at least call them that?
  #32613  
Old 05-16-2019, 08:17 AM
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So, the White House is asking all the people banned from Twitter, Facebook etc for extremist hate speech to contact them. Imagine what a motley crew of reprobates, villains and malefactors that must be. If Trump ever wants to set up a contingent of Orangeshirts, then he has a list of names and contact details of people to fill the ranks all ready to go.
Plus, they want to give them a gold star.
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  #32614  
Old 05-16-2019, 08:17 AM
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  #32615  
Old 05-16-2019, 08:38 AM
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But this isn't any different than what's been going on for the last 40 years. The conservative states pass laws that nibble at the edges of Roe vs Wade and then they usually get struck down by the courts. They're just trying again hoping that Kavanaugh gives them the edge. But until the Supreme Court overturns Roe vs. Wade, none of these new laws are going to take effect.
The laws all take effect on the scheduled date until they are struck down by the court.
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  #32616  
Old 05-16-2019, 08:39 AM
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  #32617  
Old 05-16-2019, 08:46 AM
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So, the White House is asking all the people banned from Twitter, Facebook etc for extremist hate speech to contact them. Imagine what a motley crew of reprobates, villains and malefactors that must be. If Trump ever wants to set up a contingent of Orangeshirts, then he has a list of names and contact details of people to fill the ranks all ready to go.
Perhaps they are looking for a new Press Secretary or Head of WH Communications.
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  #32618  
Old 05-16-2019, 08:48 AM
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But this isn't any different than what's been going on for the last 40 years. The conservative states pass laws that nibble at the edges of Roe vs Wade and then they usually get struck down by the courts. They're just trying again hoping that Kavanaugh gives them the edge. But until the Supreme Court overturns Roe vs. Wade, none of these new laws are going to take effect. I agree with you that it's not going to end, but it's nothing new.

And actually, now that I think about it, I disagree with your assertion that they are winning by tearing down what our country was built on and rebuilding it as a white supremacist, god-fearing country. Unfortunately, our country was founded as a white supremacist country. It took us 90 years to stop owning people. Then it took another 60 before women were allowed to vote. It took 40 more years before we got serious about allowing black people to vote. And for blacks and whites to marry. But since then - the women's liberation movement, gay rights, gay marriage, transgender rights; change is coming faster and faster. Progressives are winning. Conservatives are backed into a corner and they are dangerous right now - we have to keep fighting. But progressives are winning.

I grew up in a small town during the 60s and 70s. I didn't know any black people. I didn't think I knew any gay people (I was wrong). I laughed at and told jokes about black people and gay people (I was wrong). Then I went to college and met black students. My best friend told me he was gay. Gradually my view of the world changed and I began overcoming my prejudices, so as I got more out into the world and began meeting people from lots of other kinds of cultures, I was better able to accept all those challenges to my initial small world view. Contrast that with my sons who are in high school right now, and different cultures mixed together is their default. They don't have to get over their prejudices, because they didn't have them to start with. That's how I know the progressives are winning.

So, yes, we started as a white supremacist country, but we've been trying, and succeeding, from the beginning to change that. Yes, it's going too slow, and yes, some conservatives are trying to push things back to the way they were, but there are too many different kinds of people saying fuck that, we like the gains we've made and we want more. The situation today is kind of like the Battle of the Bulge. The conservatives have made a strong attack which has pushed the lines back. But the progressives have the bigger, more diverse army and we can, will and must win this war.
You make some good points, but one thing I've mentioned before is what Yale Prof David Blight refers to as revolution vs counter-revolution. Take, for instance, the American Civil War, the slavery amendments, and the Reconstruction era installation of freedmen in government -- that was an example of a revolution. But the Reconstruction era violence against black freedmen and the white members of the freedmen's bureau, eventually driving them out of the South after the election of 1876, coupled with the Jim Crow era that followed, is an example of a counter-revolution. And the point to keep in mind is that counter-revolutions can succeed, and they can have long-lasting consequences.
  #32619  
Old 05-16-2019, 11:30 AM
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...they aren't "nibbling at the edges" of Roe vs Wade. They are trying to steamroll right over the top of it. The game has changed. This isn't the "same thing" that has been happening over the last 40 years. This is a significant acceleration. I have no fucking idea how any of this is going to play out. But as the Slate article I posted pointed out:

They aren't overreacting. I am not overreacting. This is a goddamn emergency. "Nibbling?" I mean what the fuck?

Progressives are complacent. Women's liberation came about because women stepped up a fought for their rights. Gay marriage and gay rights came about because gay people came out (literally) and fought for those rights. And the battle for transgender rights isn't even close to "being won." All those hard-fought battles can be overturned at the stroke of a pen. We are watching that happen right now.

Progressives aren't winning. The people that want to take away women's rights and gay rights and transgender rights are not going to go away. Trump still has 46% approval rating. (Obama, at the same time in his term only had 44% approval) Progressives aren't winning because several states have just signed into law restrictive abortion bills. They aren't winning because transgender people can no longer join the military. They aren't winning because they are on the defensive. And they will always be on the defensive and the best they will ever be able to do is to marginalise the voices that seek to silence them.

Congratulations on "being woke." Unfortunately that doesn't fucking matter if the people that "aren't woke" control the administration, the senate and the federal courts.

The "conservatives" are playing fucking dirty and the "centerists" are too far up their own arses to realize what they are doing. The progressives should be winning. They are bigger and more diverse. But the progressives are being fought by both the "centerists" and the "conservatives." The centerists keep telling the progressives to "shut up we want to win the marginal Trump supporter." The centerists need a fucking wake-up-call.

This isn't the "Battle of the Bulge." This isn't a traditional war and the metaphor doesn't fit whats actually going on. They control the Federal Government, the Senate, they are packing the Federal Courts at an unprecedented rate. And its the last one that will won't be able to be fixed readily, even if Trump gets kicked out of office in 2020. And heaven forbid something happens to Ginsberg.
I agree with most of the things you say I just disagree with your outlook. In the short view, conservatives are winning. In the longer view, equality is winning. As you say, women fought for their rights, gays fought for their rights, people of color fought for their rights, and because they are winning, society is winning. And yes, because there is pushback and because there is complacency, the fight continues. But the people who have gained those rights are not going to willingly give them up. And the longer they have those rights the more the centrists and even, eventually, the conservatives accept it as the status quo.

Let's take gay marriage as an easy example. In the 70s gay marriage wouldn't have even be considered practical enough to be used as a wacky plot point in a sitcom. By the 90s people were considering that civil unions might be okay for gays, but not marriage. Now, according to Pew Research, 61% of people approve of gay marriage. That doesn't mean gay marriage is safe, but we're not going to go back to the time when it was unthinkable. The window of normality is moving towards ever greater equality and that is a win.

Roe vs. Wade led to the creation of the Moral Majority and the Christian Right movement. The election of Barack Obama led to the growth of the Tea Party movement. I think the Republican's attacks on voting rights, immigrants and women's freedom is causing an explosion of growth amongst the progressive groups. The fact that the Democrats took back the House last fall was not a big omen - the out-of-power party tends to make a surge in the non-presidential elections. What I do think was an omen was who was elected: women, people of color, gays, Muslims. Many were inspired to run because of the pushback on their rights. That is a win.

Bad laws can be repealed. Executive orders can be overridden by new executives. But, you're right - the courts are going to be a problem for a while. Trump's international policies are going to be a problem for a while. Pain is nature's way of saying don't do that. The political and economic pain that the United States is feeling and will continue to feel, is the international community's way of saying, don't do that again.

So, you're right, complacency is a problem; we have to roll up our sleeves and continue to fight. But, as we're rolling up our sleeves, we should consider how far we've come and use that as motivation to say, yes we can do this.
  #32620  
Old 05-16-2019, 11:34 AM
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Trump Promises Louisiana a new bridge -- if they re-elect him

This is apparently against their state anti-corruption statutes

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump...b0b4728ba2940d

Quote:
HACKBERRY, La. ― President Donald Trump’s pledge to replace a critical but decrepit Interstate 10 bridge ― but only if he gets another four years in the White House, that is ― sounds like the kind of quid pro quo that a 1948 corruption statute was designed to stop, experts said.

“It raises the specter of that,” said Virginia Canter, chief ethics counsel at the nonprofit Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington. “Is he promising that benefit as a reward for their support?”

It was Just a Joke, he claims.

Yeah. Right.
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Last edited by CalMeacham; 05-16-2019 at 11:35 AM.
  #32621  
Old 05-16-2019, 11:37 AM
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"Walmart Inc said on Thursday that prices for shoppers will go up due to higher tariffs on goods from China as the world’s largest retailer reported its best comparable sales growth for the first quarter in nine years."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-w...-idUSKCN1SM15O

Hey, waitaminute! Trump, Republican Hero, business genius, Wharton grad has assured us that this isn't how tariffs work!
  #32622  
Old 05-16-2019, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by CalMeacham View Post
Trump Promises Louisiana a new bridge -- if they re-elect him

This is apparently against their state anti-corruption statutes

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump...b0b4728ba2940d




It was Just a Joke, he claims.

Yeah. Right.
Not sure how this is different from every election promise ever.
  #32623  
Old 05-16-2019, 11:43 AM
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Roe vs. Wade led to the creation of the Moral Majority and the Christian Right movement.
Actually, desegregation did that. After that battle was lost, they glommed onto abortion and have death-gripped it since.
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  #32624  
Old 05-16-2019, 01:11 PM
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The Administration has awarded two contracts for $62 million for meat products to a Brazilian company whose owners are under investigation by the DOJ for corruption. They have admitted to bribing hundreds of officials in their own country.
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/pol...4y-story.html?
  #32625  
Old 05-16-2019, 02:00 PM
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Well SOMEONE is getting a slice of this under the table. There are lots of American farmers raising clean, sustainable, grass-fed beef and lamb (and non-factory pork) who could really use some of that cash.
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  #32626  
Old 05-16-2019, 03:33 PM
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Individual 1's latest federal court nominee was approved by the Republicans in the Senate, with only Susan Collins voting no. She is the general counsel to the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of New Orleans and the wife of former Republican Senator David Vitter. She claims that Planned Parenthood kills over 150,000 females a year. She believes abortion causes cancer, and birth control leads to "violent death".
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/wendy...b0b4728ba48026
  #32627  
Old 05-16-2019, 04:30 PM
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I was watching Trump's Rose Garden address rolling out his immigration plan (and stifling my gag reflex)...tougher border controls, bigger walls, fewer asylum seekers, green cards only given on "merit" (based on skills and education).

It seems to me that if his vision were to come to pass, all low-skilled jobs would be done by Americans, and all the doctors would be Chinese - probably not what he has in mind (I think he has a vision of the only immigrants coming in being the Swedish bikini team.)
  #32628  
Old 05-16-2019, 05:24 PM
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The Administration has awarded two contracts for $62 million for meat products to a Brazilian company whose owners are under investigation by the DOJ for corruption. They have admitted to bribing hundreds of officials in their own country.
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/pol...4y-story.html?
Then they obviously have the required skills to deal with this administration.
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  #32629  
Old 05-16-2019, 05:49 PM
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I agree with most of the things you say I just disagree with your outlook. In the short view, conservatives are winning. In the longer view, equality is winning. As you say, women fought for their rights, gays fought for their rights, people of color fought for their rights, and because they are winning, society is winning. And yes, because there is pushback and because there is complacency, the fight continues. But the people who have gained those rights are not going to willingly give them up. And the longer they have those rights the more the centrists and even, eventually, the conservatives accept it as the status quo.
...of course the people who gained those rights are not going to willingly give them up. That's why I mentioned them.

But do you know who isn't going to fight as hard?

The people who didn't. 98% of black women who voted voted for Hillary. 62% of white men who voted voted for Trump. 47% of white women.

Do you understand what those figures mean? It means that the people who had the most to loose at the last election voted as if their lives depended on it. And those that didn't have much to loose at all voted for Trump. I have no reason to think that at in 2020 that is going to change very much. If Trump looses at the next election it won't be because the people that supported Trump are going to change their minds. It will be because the people that have been fighting since their forebears were bought to this country in chains will continue to fight. They won't give up. But they are fucking tired. And they really need everybody else to step up. And that includes people like you who seem to think progressive ideals came about because they "trended" that way and not because of blood, sweat and tears.

Quote:
Let's take gay marriage as an easy example. In the 70s gay marriage wouldn't have even be considered practical enough to be used as a wacky plot point in a sitcom. By the 90s people were considering that civil unions might be okay for gays, but not marriage. Now, according to Pew Research, 61% of people approve of gay marriage. That doesn't mean gay marriage is safe, but we're not going to go back to the time when it was unthinkable. The window of normality is moving towards ever greater equality and that is a win.
This story popped up yesterday. The intent of the administration is pretty fucking crystal clear. And they have the power to do so and the support of millions of people.

This "window of normality" isn't something cast in stone. You are being complacent if you think that this "window" is simply a trend. It doesn't matter if 61% of people approve of gay marriage if half of that 61% are indifferent about gay marriage were it to be taken away.

Quote:
Roe vs. Wade led to the creation of the Moral Majority and the Christian Right movement. The election of Barack Obama led to the growth of the Tea Party movement.
Lets assume what you said is true. Do the Moral Majority and the Christian Right and the Tea Party still exist? Do they have power? They aren't going anywhere.

Quote:
I think the Republican's attacks on voting rights, immigrants and women's freedom is causing an explosion of growth amongst the progressive groups.
And centrists are fighting that growth. And that's a big fucking problem. They should be embracing that growth: instead they want to shout them down.

Quote:
The fact that the Democrats took back the House last fall was not a big omen - the out-of-power party tends to make a surge in the non-presidential elections. What I do think was an omen was who was elected: women, people of color, gays, Muslims.
But look at how Ilhan Omar has been treated by her very own party. They got elected, sure. But they literally have to fight their own party leadership to get their voices heard.

Quote:
Many were inspired to run because of the pushback on their rights. That is a win.
They were inspired to run because the people that were running weren't doing enough to protect them. They ran because the people who held power didn't give a fuck about them. They ran because the American people elected the world's stupidest man to the most powerful position in the world. Nobody would willingly throw themselves into the firing line like AOC or Omar have done. The harassment, the slander, the death threats. So no this wasn't a fucking win. It was a fucking failure of the Democratic leadership and a failure of the American people. They stood up because they had too because nobody else was. They are fucking heroes and you are taking them for granted.

Quote:
Bad laws can be repealed. Executive orders can be overridden by new executives. But, you're right - the courts are going to be a problem for a while. Trump's international policies are going to be a problem for a while. Pain is nature's way of saying don't do that. The political and economic pain that the United States is feeling and will continue to feel, is the international community's way of saying, don't do that again.
Bad laws are on the books now. People are suffering and dying now. You only feel pain if you are getting hurt. And the majority of Americans are not getting hurt.

Quote:
So, you're right, complacency is a problem; we have to roll up our sleeves and continue to fight. But, as we're rolling up our sleeves, we should consider how far we've come and use that as motivation to say, yes we can do this.
Do you realize how condescending this sounds to a woman who lives in a state that has just instituted the new abortion laws? Or to a married gay couple who can't get citizenship for their child? Or to the thousands of parents who have been separated from their children at the border? Or to the thousands of Americans who have to beg for money on crowdfunding websites in order to pay for their medical bills? You are just "rolling up your sleeves" now? Guess what: you've been fucking complacent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarah Kendzior
But the moral loss cuts deeper. In every tragedy there is a before and an after, and we have been living in the after since Mr. Trump launched his campaign with threats against Mexicans and people rationalized it or laughed it off. His campaign should have ended when it began, but instead the media made his bigotry lucrative, with every revelation of his corruption, brutality and ignorance marketed as tabloid fodder, condoned by the Republican party and by much of the public.

I warned that his behaviour resembled that of the dictators in authoritarian regimes that I have studied for over a decade. I wrote that the motto of dictatorship is, "It can't happen here."
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opin...ticle32753320/

Published in late 2016. Things are much fucking worse now. People have been warning you. Pleading with you. Begging you to "roll your fucking sleeves up" a long time ago.

If you want to live in an America where you get to "repeal the laws" and you get to have "new executives" then you need to recognize exactly where America is at at the moment. The Trump regime at the moment is literally ignoring congressional oversight. They are just saying no. It isn't going to stop there. Trump firstly purged the White House of anyone who wasn't loyal to him. Then there was a second round of purges to get rid of anyone who was loyal to him but would still uphold the constitution and the law. This third group of people don't give a fuck. They are making decisions in secret with no oversight and we really don't know the full extent of what the fuck they are doing.

Jerry Nadler called it a constitutional crisis a week and a bit ago and he is absolutely right. But nobody really gives a fuck. It was a blip on the news cycle. Didn't even prompt a new thread in GD. The abortion law changes didn't even prompt a pit thread. Too busy patting yourselves on the back on "how far you've come" that you can't see what is going on around you. Its people like you that can actually make a difference. But you need to get a handle on what is actually happening.
  #32630  
Old 05-16-2019, 05:59 PM
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Republican senators meet with Jared Kushner on immigration, conclude he's clueless

Kushner fails to impress GOP senators in private meeting on immigration plan: "He's in his own little world"

Quote:
Republican senators came away unimpressed from an immigration meeting with Trump son-in-law Jared Kushner and privately questioned whether he even understood the issue, the Washington Post reports.

...

While senators publicly voiced support for the plan, Republicans privately expressed concern that Kushner was unable to provide “clear answers” to their questions despite a room with a “friendly audience,” the Post reported.

As a result, Trump adviser Stephen Miller, a hardline immigration hawk, was reportedly forced to interrupt Kushner to take over the discussion at several points.

...

“I am concerned about the fate of the DACA young people, and they cannot be excluded from any immigration package,” she told the Post.

Kushner told Collins that Trump had not asked him to address the issue and instead wanted to focus on issues that “bring people together.”

Republicans left the meeting with “little hope” that the immigration plan would move forward and some senators “left the meeting wondering whether Kushner understood the issue,” several Republican officials told The Post.

“He’s in his own little world,” an anonymous official told the outlet. “He didn’t give many details about what was in [his plan]. . . . And there were a number of instances where people had to step in and answer questions because he couldn’t.”
The Trump admin is about "bringing people together"? Like white supremacists at rallies and brown people in cages?

So bland Jared is the public face, but Miller is behind the scenes pulling the strings it looks like.
  #32631  
Old 05-16-2019, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Walken After Midnight View Post
So, the White House is asking all the people banned from Twitter, Facebook etc for extremist hate speech to contact them.
I've done my bit to help see to it that this will work out about as well for them as their effort to have "victims of illegal alien crime" contact them:

Trump's immigrant crime hotline trolled with calls about aliens and UFOs

This one could be an even bigger fisaco -- the "report" form has a provision for uploading an image (intended to be a screenshot of the nastygram from the jackbooted InstaFaceTube censors, but could be anything from a cat macro to goatse).
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  #32632  
Old 05-16-2019, 07:50 PM
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Oh I appreciate it -- understand that I laugh at myself a lot.

But my subject matter is serious - deadly serious
Fair enough.

(But the bit about incontinence being enforced by the new overlords was pretty funny.)
  #32633  
Old 05-16-2019, 08:08 PM
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Trump’s pick for ICE director says he can tell which migrant children will become gang members by looking into their eyes.

Quote:
“I’ve been to detention facilities where I’ve walked up to these individuals that are so-called minors, 17 or under,” Morgan said on “Tucker Carlson Tonight” in January. “I’ve looked at them and I’ve looked at their eyes, Tucker — and I’ve said that is a soon-to-be MS-13 gang member. It’s unequivocal.”
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...rector-1449570
  #32634  
Old 05-16-2019, 09:17 PM
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I was watching Trump's Rose Garden address rolling out his immigration plan (and stifling my gag reflex)...tougher border controls, bigger walls, fewer asylum seekers, green cards only given on "merit" (based on skills and education).

It seems to me that if his vision were to come to pass, all low-skilled jobs would be done by Americans, and all the doctors would be Chinese - probably not what he has in mind (I think he has a vision of the only immigrants coming in being the Swedish bikini team.)
As my sister asked today on FB, had these proposed rules been in place the year before whatever year Victor and Amalija Knavs immigrated to the U.S. (it's AMAZING how impossible it is to find out what year that was. Wonder what's up with that?), where would they be living today?
  #32635  
Old 05-16-2019, 09:20 PM
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Trump’s pick for ICE director says he can tell which migrant children will become gang members by looking into their eyes.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...rector-1449570
Someone apparently thinks that Minority Report,with the whole pre-crime thing, was a documentary.
  #32636  
Old 05-16-2019, 10:16 PM
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Do you realize how condescending this sounds to a woman who lives in a state that has just instituted the new abortion laws? Or to a married gay couple who can't get citizenship for their child? Or to the thousands of parents who have been separated from their children at the border? Or to the thousands of Americans who have to beg for money on crowdfunding websites in order to pay for their medical bills? You are just "rolling up your sleeves" now? Guess what: you've been fucking complacent.
No, I hadn't realized. I was looking at it differently and missed it. But you are, of course, correct that it was condescending. I apologize for that.
  #32637  
Old 05-16-2019, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by jsc1953 View Post
I was watching Trump's Rose Garden address rolling out his immigration plan (and stifling my gag reflex)...tougher border controls, bigger walls, fewer asylum seekers, green cards only given on "merit" (based on skills and education).

It seems to me that if his vision were to come to pass, all low-skilled jobs would be done by Americans, and all the doctors would be Chinese - probably not what he has in mind (I think he has a vision of the only immigrants coming in being the Swedish bikini team.)
Only if the Swedish bikini team can speak English and can pass a civics test. That's the rules in his new proposal.
  #32638  
Old 05-16-2019, 10:37 PM
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Only if the Swedish bikini team can speak English and can pass a civics test. That's the rules in his new proposal.
Does that mean we can throw Trump out when this goes in effect?
  #32639  
Old 05-17-2019, 12:06 AM
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No, I hadn't realized. I was looking at it differently and missed it. But you are, of course, correct that it was condescending. I apologize for that.
...all good mate. We are both on the same side. I'm on the outside looking in. I don't and can't speak for these people. I honestly don't know what its like. I live on the other side of the world with a Prime Minister who is the polar opposite of everything that Trump says and believes and stands for. I'm privileged to live here, but conscious that if it weren't for a quirk in our electoral system it could have been very very different.
  #32640  
Old 05-17-2019, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by dasmoocher View Post
Republican senators meet with Jared Kushner on immigration, conclude he's clueless

Kushner fails to impress GOP senators in private meeting on immigration plan: "He's in his own little world"

The Trump admin is about "bringing people together"? Like white supremacists at rallies and brown people in cages?

So bland Jared is the public face, but Miller is behind the scenes pulling the strings it looks like.
That's my read. They knew that Miller would just creep everyone out, so they sent in Kushner figuring that he'd do a better job of not sounding like an asshole.

In general, I think that Kushner is reasonably intelligent (and would probably be a lefty if allowed to be so - except as regards the future of Israel), but there's only so much you can do when asked to polish a turd.

But, to be fair, Kushner is probably bright enough to have come out of the meeting realizing what sorts of compromises were going to be necessary and he is in position to be able to go over Miller's head. Potentially, he could actually bring a different plan to the table that's not stupid.

I suspect, though, that anti-Mexican racism is about the closest thing to having a lock on his voting base as Trump has. Where he might be willing to be swayed by Kushner on many things, I don't think he has much choice on this one but to live somewhere between "lock them up all up" and "start burning them all at the stake". Approving DACA isn't on that spectrum.
  #32641  
Old 05-17-2019, 01:03 AM
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I'm sorry, but I have to know exactly what about Kushner made him a good candidate for pushing an immigration reform. What is the point? It's like making me an NRA supporter.
  #32642  
Old 05-17-2019, 01:36 AM
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I'm sorry, but I have to know exactly what about Kushner made him a good candidate for pushing an immigration reform. What is the point? It's like making me an NRA supporter.
What makes anyone a candidate for being a politician? Ain't none of them ever worked in USCIS, or the Fed, or CMS, or....

At the end of the day, very little of the government is run by people who have experience with the subjects that they're dealing with. But, that doesn't all implode because they ask the experts below them to write reports, explain things to them, ask them for advice and in the end trust what those people tell them.

Kushner can do that as much as ex-waitress Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez can (no offense nor endorsement intended for either of them).
  #32643  
Old 05-17-2019, 02:17 AM
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What makes anyone a candidate for being a politician? Ain't none of them ever worked in USCIS, or the Fed, or CMS, or....

At the end of the day, very little of the government is run by people who have experience with the subjects that they're dealing with. But, that doesn't all implode because they ask the experts below them to write reports, explain things to them, ask them for advice and in the end trust what those people tell them.

Kushner can do that as much as ex-waitress Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez can (no offense nor endorsement intended for either of them).
Nobody expects a President to be an expert in every subject he's going to need to know.

But he needs to be an expert at learning things. To do his job even halfway effectively, he needs to absorb huge amounts of information and get it sorted out in his mind. Then he has to be able to apply what he's just learned. And he has to do it all in a short amount of time because there's always something new that needs to be learned in the next hour.

I don't see any signs that Donald Trump is capable of this kind of effort or is making any attempt at it.
  #32644  
Old 05-17-2019, 03:52 AM
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Kushner can do that as much as ex-waitress Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez can (no offense nor endorsement intended for either of them).
...except this isn't objectively true. We have hours and hours of evidence to show this isn't true. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is on record with nuanced and well informed positions on almost every she speaks out on. Her positions are debatable: but at least she has positions. Kushner speaks so rarely that when he does its a media event. His business acumen isn't the greatest: I mean for fucks sakes he invested in 666 Fifth Avenue. We know nothing about Kushner. My read is that Kushner is just a little-bit less fucking stupid than Trump. Its why they don't let him talk in public and why they don't let him answer questions.
  #32645  
Old 05-17-2019, 04:09 AM
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Kushner can do that as much as ex-waitress Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez can (no offense nor endorsement intended for either of them).
Hey look, it's someone who hasn't heard even five minutes of AOC speaking in congress.
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  #32646  
Old 05-17-2019, 06:50 AM
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On paper, Kushner has a degree from Harvard in government and AOC has a degree from Boston U in international relations and economics, so it's not an unreasonable comparison... until, as noted, one actually hears them speak.
  #32647  
Old 05-17-2019, 07:34 AM
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...and Kushner's family made a pretty good contribution to Harvard before he was admitted.

He's not "reasonably" intelligent. By many accounts, he's actually a bit dim but this wouldn't have been much of a detriment for a trust fund kid (as many of these asshats appears to be) had he not been thrust into the public spotlight. Trump's been pushing Kushner for various important roles. The fact he's never gotten any traction with any Republican power brokers tells you all you need to know about how capable he is, when the likes of Moore or Cain get serious consideration for Fed posts.
  #32648  
Old 05-17-2019, 07:59 AM
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Does that mean we can throw Trump out when this goes in effect?
I'm not familiar with the Quartz, but they just ran this article and I think the reporter, Heather Timmons, is reputable:

Trump himself wouldn’t be an American under his new immigration plan


I wonder how much self-loathing Stephen Miller has or if he's capable of it:

Quote:
Stephen Miller

The presidential advisor has had an outsized influence on the Trump White House’s immigration decisions, including pressing for new citizenship rules including a requirement to speak English, which Trump mentioned in the Rose Garden today.

Miller’s own great-grandmother could not speak English, notes Jennifer Mendelsohn, a journalist-turned genealogist who created #resistancegenealogy to follow Trump White House members’ immigration histories:

[Tweet image:

Stephen Miller favors immigrants who speak English. But the 1910 census shows his own great-grandmother couldn't. #oops]

His great-grandfather, Nison Miller, failed a US citizenship test because of “ignorance,” but was allowed to remain in the country. His maternal great-grandfather traveled to the US via “chain migration,” joining relatives who arrived in America with just $8 to their name, the Jewish Journal reports.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gyrate View Post
On paper, Kushner has a degree from Harvard in government and AOC has a degree from Boston U in international relations and economics, so it's not an unreasonable comparison... until, as noted, one actually hears them speak.
I think Kushner's father basically bought him admission with a multimillion donation. Reportedly, Kushner's high school classmates and teachers thought he was in no way up to normal Havard standards and were surprised when he was accepted.

It took about 10 seconds to find this article:

The Story Behind Jared Kushner’s Curious Acceptance Into Harvard

Quote:
My book exposed a grubby secret of American higher education: that the rich buy their under-achieving children’s way into elite universities with massive, tax-deductible donations. It reported that New Jersey real estate developer Charles Kushner had pledged $2.5 million to Harvard University in 1998, not long before his son Jared was admitted to the prestigious Ivy League school. At the time, Harvard accepted about one of every nine applicants. (Nowadays, it only takes one out of twenty.)

I also quoted administrators at Jared’s high school, who described him as a less than stellar student and expressed dismay at Harvard’s decision.

“There was no way anybody in the administrative office of the school thought he would on the merits get into Harvard,” a former official at The Frisch School in Paramus, New Jersey, told me. “His GPA did not warrant it, his SAT scores did not warrant it. We thought for sure, there was no way this was going to happen. Then, lo and behold, Jared was accepted. It was a little bit disappointing because there were at the time other kids we thought should really get in on the merits, and they did not.”
And, twenty years later, it's still going on.
  #32649  
Old 05-17-2019, 08:37 AM
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Someone apparently thinks that Minority Report,with the whole pre-crime thing, was a documentary.
Thoghtcrime, anyone? Although I doubt His Nibs has ever read 1984, nor even Animal Farm.
  #32650  
Old 05-17-2019, 08:41 AM
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