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  #151  
Old 04-28-2019, 01:31 PM
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Perhaps someone reached out to him or perhaps he just heard about Tony Stark's death in the newspapers or on TV? Tony Stark was a well-known business owner, and also the events in the movie were, I assume, widely reported.
  #152  
Old 04-28-2019, 01:32 PM
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I assume they all knew about him to reach out to him? I don't remember Iron Man 3 too well, though I did like it a lot.
If Tony knew him, Pepper knew him.
  #153  
Old 04-28-2019, 01:33 PM
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I don't think that's correct. It was a pic of skinny Steve, from before he got the serum. They weren't already together in that timeline; the picture was just showing that Peggy was still carrying a torch for Steve decades after he'd died.
Yes, it's the exact same picture takes out of Captain's file at the end of the first CA movie, when they're closing down the England SSR facility.

ETA: And remember near the beginning of Winter Soldier, when Steve is talking to aged Peggy, who has had children (as seen in the photos by her bed) but whose husband is apparently already dead. So Steve married to Peggy in the 50s is definitely not part of the Endgame reality.

Last edited by muldoonthief; 04-28-2019 at 01:35 PM.
  #154  
Old 04-28-2019, 01:51 PM
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muldoonthief:

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And remember near the beginning of Winter Soldier, when Steve is talking to aged Peggy, who has had children (as seen in the photos by her bed) but whose husband is apparently already dead. So Steve married to Peggy in the 50s is definitely not part of the Endgame reality.
I figured that Steve knew he had to somehow fake his own death before the point in time that he gets thawed. He knows he can't change the past.

(Even though I'm apparently wrong about the picture.)
  #155  
Old 04-28-2019, 03:48 PM
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My problem with the girl power scene isn't the gratuitousness or the pandering, because lets face it, the whole movie was pandering to a large extent.

My problem was that Captain Marvell can fly through massive spaceships like they are wet paper, so why exactly would she have a problem just flying through a few hundred bad guys? She could fly through them, she could fly over them, she could do whatever she damn well pleased and none of the faceless mooks could do a damn thing about it.

So everybody in the girl power lineup was basically irrelevant, which probably wasn't the message they were really going for.
  #156  
Old 04-28-2019, 04:42 PM
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My problem with the girl power scene isn't the gratuitousness or the pandering, because lets face it, the whole movie was pandering to a large extent.

My problem was that Captain Marvell can fly through massive spaceships like they are wet paper, so why exactly would she have a problem just flying through a few hundred bad guys? She could fly through them, she could fly over them, she could do whatever she damn well pleased and none of the faceless mooks could do a damn thing about it.

So everybody in the girl power lineup was basically irrelevant, which probably wasn't the message they were really going for.
She did just fly through them; it was only Thanos wrecking the portal that stopped her. But Peter Parker didn't know that she would be able to do that, hence his doubtful comment. Probably none of the other returned snappees knew it either. Yes, the girl lineup was gratuitous in the sense that Marvel didn't need their help, but they were still relevant for the other things that they did on the battlefield. Plus, I believe that Shuri, Rescue, and (? someone else?) did combine to knock Thanos down as he was winding up to swat Marvel on her dash.

Marvel didn't need Tony or Cap's help to carry the gauntlet, either, but they aren't irrelevant.
  #157  
Old 04-28-2019, 04:44 PM
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I assume they all knew about him to reach out to him? I don't remember Iron Man 3 too well, though I did like it a lot.
I would guess that Pepper or Happy, at least, knew how to reach him. I might also guess that Tony left instructions in his will that the young man should be invited to the funeral.
  #158  
Old 04-28-2019, 05:33 PM
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My problem with the girl power scene isn't the gratuitousness or the pandering, because lets face it, the whole movie was pandering to a large extent.

My problem was that Captain Marvell can fly through massive spaceships like they are wet paper, so why exactly would she have a problem just flying through a few hundred bad guys? She could fly through them, she could fly over them, she could do whatever she damn well pleased and none of the faceless mooks could do a damn thing about it.

So everybody in the girl power lineup was basically irrelevant, which probably wasn't the message they were really going for.
...my problem with the scene where Captain America said "Avengers....assemble" was that he said it so quietly that nobody heard him. Who did he say that too? Why didn't he say it a bit louder? Why was he asking the Avengers to "assemble", when they had already assembled? And most of the people he was addressing weren't even Avengers. The line was basically irrelevant, and probably wasn't the message they were really going for.
  #159  
Old 04-28-2019, 05:46 PM
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Wow. I think you're leaning way too hard into that criticism.

Cap said it for us, the audience, and we heard him loud and clear. And he said it because that's the Avengers' big, up-front, copyrighted, logo'd tag-line. What did you want him to say, "Charge!"?
  #160  
Old 04-28-2019, 05:51 PM
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Wow. I think you're leaning way too hard into that criticism.

Cap said it for us, the audience, and we heard him loud and clear. And he said it because that's the Avengers' big, up-front, copyrighted, logo'd tag-line. What did you want him to say, "Charge!"?
...Wow. I think you are leaning way too hard into my sarcastic critique and ignoring the context of the post I was replying too.

The "girl power" scene was a message to a segment of the Marvel fandom that had been ignored for the last 22 movies and 11 years. That segment heard it loud and clear. Thanks for making my point for me.
  #161  
Old 04-28-2019, 06:05 PM
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Subtext I took for the "Avengers... assemble!" line:

"Today, we are ALL Avengers!"
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  #162  
Old 04-28-2019, 06:23 PM
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Has there ever been an explanation of why it's necessary for the person wearing the gauntlet to snap their fingers in order to get their wish/command enacted? Seems to me like all you'd have to do is think at them hard enough. And if the snap is necessary, who figured it out, and how? And what would a species without fingers do if they had managed to get the stones together in an appropriate-to-their-physiology article?
  #163  
Old 04-28-2019, 06:40 PM
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My thoughts during the Ladies of Marvel Assemble sequence were:
"Is this going to be..."
"Yeah, it sure is. That's a little on the nose"
"Well, I suppose if it was five dudes, I wouldn't even think twice about it"
"Maybe that's the lesson from th---"
"Haha, Mantis ain't doing shit"

I'm pretty sure Mantis just had her one line at the end so she could collect union scale for showing up.
  #164  
Old 04-28-2019, 07:07 PM
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I would guess that Pepper or Happy, at least, knew how to reach him. I might also guess that Tony left instructions in his will that the young man should be invited to the funeral.
Fairly certain (in my mind anyway) that he would be IM 2.0

Last edited by simster; 04-28-2019 at 07:07 PM.
  #165  
Old 04-28-2019, 07:18 PM
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I had an argument with a friend of mine earlier this week. We both agreed that Infinity War is among the best MCU movies so far, but I was very concerned that they were going to squander that magic in Endgame. My exact argument was, "If they go back in time in order to find a way to punch the problem until it goes away, then it cheapens everything that happened in Infinity War and retroactively makes that movie worse."

He assured me that wasn't going to happen, and that I was just being dramatic.

I really wish I was wrong. What a disappointment this movie was.

Last edited by Mosier; 04-28-2019 at 07:19 PM.
  #166  
Old 04-28-2019, 07:28 PM
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The time travel plot didn't bother me. For one, I think everyone knew that time travel would be involved. More importantly, I thought it was interesting that they brought back the dead without just rewinding the fight and defeating Thanos in Africa.
  #167  
Old 04-28-2019, 07:29 PM
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Well, I don't agree that it was a disappointment. And given the scenario at the beginning of the film (Thanos is dead and the stones are gone), no resolution appeared possible without some sort of time-travel magic.

By the way, the beginning of the film, with the trauma of the loss shown in the abandoned houses in San Francisco that Scott Lang passed and the support group that Steve Rogers was leading, reminded me of the HBO series The Leftovers, in which two percent of the world's population disappeared instantly and without explanation. In both stories, the remaining populace is traumatized by the loss. (Although obviously in this case the loss is far greater.)
  #168  
Old 04-28-2019, 07:29 PM
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Okay, I see a huuuuuge gaping plot hole in the resolution of this movie.

Half the Earth's population has been gone for five years. They make a point of showing just how run-down and dilapidated the world has become. You've gotta imagine, at least half the world's infrastructure -- roads, power plants, water services, farms, etc. -- have been shut down or have fallen into disuse, or at the very least have been mothballed.

Then, suddenly, with a snap of Bruce Banner's fingers, everybody who had been gone is instantly brought back. They're not brought back at the point in the past where they were taken away, they're brought back in the present, five years after they left.

And we're shown a world where everything is back to normal the very next day.

Guys? At least half the world's infrastructure has been shut down. There won't be enough of anything essential for all of these people! The half-sized power grid won't handle that sudden surge in demand, the water distribution networks will be taxed to their limits, and neither the farms nor the grocery stores would be able to feed all of them. And there's no way all of that mothballed infrastructure could be brought back up-and-running without weeks, months, or even years of work. The world would be gripped by the very starvation that Thanos wanted to eliminate by removing half the population in the first place!
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  #169  
Old 04-28-2019, 07:31 PM
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They've announced that they're finally doing a Black Widow movie. Given what happens in Endgame, it seems likely that it's going to be set in the past, but a movie where the Red Skull engineers a way to escape from Soul Stone duty, and Nat somehow hitches a ride back to the world of the living to stop him, would be pretty epic.
I'm kinda wondering - a sacrifice is required to acquire the Soul stone...but what happens when someone does the reverse? Gives up the Soul stone? Does that, maybe, require a straight swap back? The Soul stone does seem kinda Lawful...
It's certainly an explanation I could bite off, if Natasha returns in present day.

That said, I'd like to see the prequel treatment - maybe we'd find out what happened in Budapest!
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  #170  
Old 04-28-2019, 07:34 PM
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Okay, I see a huuuuuge gaping plot hole in the resolution of this movie.

Half the Earth's population has been gone for five years. They make a point of showing just how run-down and dilapidated the world has become. You've gotta imagine, at least half the world's infrastructure -- roads, power plants, water services, farms, etc. -- have been shut down or have fallen into disuse, or at the very least have been mothballed.

Then, suddenly, with a snap of Bruce Banner's fingers, everybody who had been gone is instantly brought back. They're not brought back at the point in the past where they were taken away, they're brought back in the present, five years after they left.

And we're shown a world where everything is back to normal the very next day.

Guys? At least half the world's infrastructure has been shut down. There won't be enough of anything essential for all of these people! The half-sized power grid won't handle that sudden surge in demand, the water distribution networks will be taxed to their limits, and neither the farms nor the grocery stores would be able to feed all of them. And there's no way all of that mothballed infrastructure could be brought back up-and-running without weeks, months, or even years of work. The world would be gripped by the very starvation that Thanos wanted to eliminate by removing half the population in the first place!
Post #8.

Last edited by squeegee; 04-28-2019 at 07:36 PM.
  #171  
Old 04-28-2019, 07:41 PM
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The world would be gripped by the very starvation that Thanos wanted to eliminate by removing half the population in the first place!
Unless half the population starves, Thanos wins.
  #172  
Old 04-28-2019, 07:42 PM
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In regards to famine, Thanos snapped away half of "all living things" which includes stalks of corn and cows and chickens so maybe Stark's counter-snap had us swimming in restored grain and pork.

Seriously though, if I had to accept the lack of catastrophic collapse after the snap, I can brush this off.
  #173  
Old 04-28-2019, 07:53 PM
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...But let's talk about the true shocking development in the movie: no end credits scene! When the movie just ... stopped and the lights went all the way up in the theater where I watched it, everyone was stunned at first and then burst out laughing.
In retrospect it makes sense that there wouldn't be a stinger, but I was really annoyed after sitting thru the entire credits.

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Isn't Far From Home supposed to be set right after Endgame? How will that work? Actually, didn't Peter return to high school at the end of the movie and see Ned there?

Maybe FFH is set before Infinity War and Endgame after all. Wouldn't be the first time filmmakers have lied to keep a secret.
It's either a prequel, or the parents of all Peter's friends decided to let their children go off to Europe by themselves after mourning their deaths for 5 years.

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I wonder if the question of the identity of Peggy’s husband is now solved. The MCU has avoided answering that question. So if it was Thawed!Cap, then that makes sense.

ETA : Sad that the star of Avengers and our distinguished poster, Elendil’s Heir did not return. Pretty much everyone else did!
I'm really not a fan of the idea of Steve & Peggy being secretly married for decades.

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I thought it was in Norway.
Me too. It must be really weird for Scandinavians to coexist with Asgardians.

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...I'm not expecting Spider-man Far From Home or the rest of the Marvel movies to be like The Leftovers and everyone processing the crazy grief and confusion from these events, but I am curious how it is handled.
I'm guessing if it's address at all it'll be along the lines of the mass amnesia in the War of the Worlds TV series, where world governments remember, but the general public repressed all memory of the Martian invasion in the 50s because it was so traumatic.

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Was I the only one who thought the ending would involve a reset back five years prior, and that would mean that Tony Stark's daughter would no longer exist?
I was thinking that would happen, but we'd find out that Pepper Potts is pregnant.

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The only seat left in town was in a brewpub/theater*. They had a huge amount of staff to run beer and food to your seat, and our head server said "If you need a bathroom break, watch for the Hulk carrying tacos. That's halfway through, and you'll have at least five minutes there."...
Movies of this length is were actual intermissions would come in really handy.
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  #174  
Old 04-28-2019, 07:56 PM
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Were you thinking all those people would remain dead or that there would be an alternative solution, say Rick and Mortyesque move to another universe in the multiverse?
  #175  
Old 04-28-2019, 07:58 PM
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Why does only Tony get a big hero funeral? Or at least one during the movie? It felt a little crappy towards Natasha for sacrificing herself and everyone (besides Hulk) is like, "Huh, that's said. But Tony, man. That's a tragedy."
  #176  
Old 04-28-2019, 08:07 PM
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Going after Thanos and taking brutal revenge on him right at the start, and then giving the surviving characters 5 years to let the consequences of his beating them settle in before Scott Lang provided the kick to giving them hope again was not how I thought they were going to handle it. .
Really, the unsung hero of the whole thing was....the rat crawling over the console in the van that accidentally released Scott from the Quantum Realm. Without that, the remaining Avengers would have sunk further into their respective declines or seclusion and no further action would have beentaken.
  #177  
Old 04-28-2019, 08:09 PM
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Minor nitpick:

When Tony Stark died, why did the arc reactor in his chest suddenly go dark? It's a power source. It should still be glowing regardless.

(Yes, I know the correct answer is "Because that's an easy way to tell the audience that Tony kicked the bucket," but a good cinematographer could make it clear that he died WITH the arc reactor still going, dog gone it!)
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  #178  
Old 04-28-2019, 08:21 PM
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Why does only Tony get a big hero funeral? Or at least one during the movie? It felt a little crappy towards Natasha for sacrificing herself and everyone (besides Hulk) is like, "Huh, that's said. But Tony, man. That's a tragedy."
There is no question that this was of course because that is the character that started the franchise and also the one seen as the leader of the Avengers; however, we do not know that there was not a Natasaha big hero funeral, just that we do not see it on screen.

One thing that I thought they did well in the film was that they kept all the characters true to who they had been developed in the previous films. Each group that went back to the past acted as they would have in that situation, rather than all becoming uniform in how they dealt with their mission. The characters that were more serious, continued to be so, and the ones more likely to make quips did the same. It made the film feel much more of continuation of all that came before it rather than just a thrown together event.

//i\\
  #179  
Old 04-28-2019, 08:38 PM
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We liked the scene where everyone took turns carrying the gauntlet. It reminded us of the Play.

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Stanford took a 20–19 lead on a field goal with four seconds left. The Golden Bears used five lateral passes on the ensuing kickoff return to score the winning touchdown and earn a 25–20 victory. Members of the Stanford Band came onto the field midway through the return, believing that the game was over, which added to the confusion and folklore. There remains disagreement over the legality of two of the backward pass attempts,[1][2] adding to the passion surrounding the traditional rivalry of the annual "Big Game."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfebpLfAt8g
  #180  
Old 04-28-2019, 09:10 PM
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Minor nitpick:

When Tony Stark died, why did the arc reactor in his chest suddenly go dark? It's a power source. It should still be glowing regardless.

(Yes, I know the correct answer is "Because that's an easy way to tell the audience that Tony kicked the bucket," but a good cinematographer could make it clear that he died WITH the arc reactor still going, dog gone it!)
Tony's always been paranoid about Iron Man tech falling into the wrong hands. So he built a kill-switch into it, so nobody can kill him and steal it out of his corpse.
  #181  
Old 04-28-2019, 09:58 PM
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We liked the scene where everyone took turns carrying the gauntlet. It reminded us of the Play.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfebpLfAt8g
I liked that scene too. Reminded me of the best video game trailer of all time.
  #182  
Old 04-28-2019, 11:24 PM
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I'd like to see Capt America in the past. Not the boring 40's romance stuff -- I want to know how he re-injected Jane with the Reality Smudge and got away with it.
  #183  
Old 04-28-2019, 11:37 PM
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...Wow. I think you are leaning way too hard into my sarcastic critique and ignoring the context of the post I was replying too.

The "girl power" scene was a message to a segment of the Marvel fandom that had been ignored for the last 22 movies and 11 years. That segment heard it loud and clear. Thanks for making my point for me.
I'm glad I helped you make your point - and no I didn't realize you were being sarcastic - but I don't see what your faux critique had to do with the other one.
  #184  
Old 04-28-2019, 11:49 PM
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He dropped it back in 2013 so Thor could have it.
I think I finally get what you mean here - as I was trying to straighten out aspects of the timeline.

The only thing that seems completely unanswered is Loki. I don't see him 'coming back to go to prison with Thor' in this case.

I'm a bit confused with Thanos' timeline - as for this movie, he jumped forward from a point before he had done the original snap and was then dusted - even with putting the stones back, doesn't that leave the past without a Thanos to look for the stones and set this in motion? I get that by putting the stones back (how did they recreate the teseract or the scepter from just the stones?) that they kept the original timeline in tact - but this seems off. And I'm fine with that giving us a 'new' Gamora - which seems to imply that there should not be a Thanos .... or a Gamora to get captured with Quale....

<head explodes>

Last edited by simster; 04-28-2019 at 11:52 PM.
  #185  
Old 04-29-2019, 12:34 AM
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Ultimately I think the two snaps that were enacted by the good guys not only brought everyone back into the present day, the second snap that dusted Thanos also papered any space-time continuum anomalies that may arise from that seeming contradiction. I assume the Reality Stone and Time Stone can do that kind of thing in combination. Arguably it could also have brought back Black Widow, but as Bruce had already tried that and failed, there seems to be an extra level of protection around the Soul Stone that won't allow that.

There you go, with handwavium like that all contradictions can be addressed.

Last edited by GuanoLad; 04-29-2019 at 12:34 AM.
  #186  
Old 04-29-2019, 12:50 AM
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I think I finally get what you mean here - as I was trying to straighten out aspects of the timeline.

The only thing that seems completely unanswered is Loki. I don't see him 'coming back to go to prison with Thor' in this case.

I'm a bit confused with Thanos' timeline - as for this movie, he jumped forward from a point before he had done the original snap and was then dusted - even with putting the stones back, doesn't that leave the past without a Thanos to look for the stones and set this in motion? I get that by putting the stones back (how did they recreate the teseract or the scepter from just the stones?) that they kept the original timeline in tact - but this seems off. And I'm fine with that giving us a 'new' Gamora - which seems to imply that there should not be a Thanos .... or a Gamora to get captured with Quale....

<head explodes>
Putting the stones back wasn't about keeping the original timeline intact, it was about not dooming the divergent timeline created when they went back in time. The original timeline can't be altered---Banner says as much in the movie---which is why they couldn't go to the past to stop Thanos there, but had to bring the stones forward.
  #187  
Old 04-29-2019, 02:35 AM
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I'm glad I helped you make your point - and no I didn't realize you were being sarcastic - but I don't see what your faux critique had to do with the other one.
...arguing that "everybody in the girl power lineup was basically irrelevant" because Captain Marvel is the most powerful superhero on the planet is like saying that it was irrelevant that women stood in solidarity with Christine Blasey Ford because Ford is tough and strong and why would she need support any way? It missed the entire point of the scene.

And if we are going to make the argument that "everybody in the girl power lineup was basically irrelevant" because Captain Marvel didn't need the help: then the "Avengers...assemble" scene was irrelevant because nobody could hear what Captain America was saying.

But as you point out correctly: the scene isn't for the "characters in the movie." It is for us, in the audience, to pump our fists in the air and yell "FUCK YEAH." People are perfectly happy for the men to have their irrelevant moment: but when women have an "irrelevant moment" people have to find a way that the moment was "wrong." Just let people have their moment already.
  #188  
Old 04-29-2019, 03:56 AM
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People are perfectly happy for the men to have their irrelevant moment: but when women have an "irrelevant moment" people have to find a way that the moment was "wrong." Just let people have their moment already.
Yeah, get over yourself. Have your moment and pat yourselves on the back all day long for all I care. My point was pretty clear, I have no problem with a pandering "moment" in a movie full of pandering moments, I just think that it was really badly done which hurts the message it was trying to deliver.

And it would have been so easy to do it better. A sweeping shot across the battlefield showing them all kicking ass would have been good, but if they wanted a lineup shot then why not have them step up beside Scarlet Witch as she faces off with Thanos himself, followed by them all actually putting Thanos on his ass a few times? That would have made far more sense in that it gives them a reason to all be in the same place while also making them look powerful against a credible threat.

Instead they line up to run point for the one person there who absolutely did not need their help. The intent was fine, the execution was poor., but I guess its just women-hating to think that.

Last edited by bucketybuck; 04-29-2019 at 03:57 AM.
  #189  
Old 04-29-2019, 04:08 AM
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And I'm fine with that giving us a 'new' Gamora - which seems to imply that there should not be a Thanos .... or a Gamora to get captured with Quale....
I'm hoping that Quills search for the new Gamora ends when he finds out that she got dusted at the same time as Thanos and all his minions, because Stark didn't know that she had switched sides...
  #190  
Old 04-29-2019, 05:34 AM
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Yeah, get over yourself. Have your moment and pat yourselves on the back all day long for all I care. My point was pretty clear, I have no problem with a pandering "moment" in a movie full of pandering moments, I just think that it was really badly done which hurts the message it was trying to deliver.
...yep. You've made your point clear.

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And it would have been so easy to do it better.
It was perfectly fine as it was.

Quote:
A sweeping shot across the battlefield showing them all kicking ass would have been good, but if they wanted a lineup shot then why not have them step up beside Scarlet Witch as she faces off with Thanos himself, followed by them all actually putting Thanos on his ass a few times? That would have made far more sense in that it gives them a reason to all be in the same place while also making them look powerful against a credible threat.
If you did get a line-up shot with Scarlett Witch you would get the very same complaints: and considering how powerful Scarlett Witch turned out to be I'm pretty sure you would be arguing that a line up in front of SW would be "basically irrelevant" as well.

It makes as much sense as Captain America growling quietly to himself "Avengers Assemble." It makes as much sense as Spidey and Iron Man finding each other on the battlefield and having time to have a heartfelt conversation. It makes as much sense as Peter Quill getting ripped by Gamora in a funny scene as thousands of people were dying around them.

And then we have the meta message. About solidarity. A message that you couldn't get with a "sweeping shot" across the battlefield.


Quote:
Instead they line up to run point for the one person there who absolutely did not need their help.
Of course she needed their help. They were up against fucking Thanos. He had already kicked their asses once. He had already killed 50% of everyone before. It was a fight to the death: and at stake were the lives of millions of people.

Captain Marvel had just gotten the Gauntlet off Spidey. She had to get it away from Thanos, A-Force were there to protect her. And A-Force managed to slow Thanos down: but he threw a "hail mary" and managed to blast Captain Marvel out of the sky, taking her out, meaning that she failed. She lost the gauntlet. Its absurd to claim that Captain Marvel was the one person "who absolutely did not need their help" when it the directors made it clear on screen that Captain Marvel needed their help. If they didn't delay Thanos for the few seconds that they did then maybe he would have been able to catch Marvel instead of having to rely on a ranged attack. And if that had happened, then Tony Stark wouldn't have been close enough to set up the Endgame.

It all fits if you actually watch the movie.

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The intent was fine, the execution was poor.,
The execution was fine. You just didn't get it. That okay.

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but I guess its just women-hating to think that.
Those are your words, not mine.
  #191  
Old 04-29-2019, 07:31 AM
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Harley Keener, the kid from Iron Man 3, was at the funeral. Why would they have him there among all those recognizable faces unless he was going to become Important down the line?
There’s maybe one reason.

Okay, two: just as a callback to Iron Man 3. But that’s also the ‘one’ I have in mind, because, well, how do all the stones get yoinked away from the gauntlet on Thanos and over to the gauntlet on Tony? Was there foreshadowing? Do you feel it came out of nowhere? Should there have been some kind of Chekhov’s Gun? I mean, it maybe would’ve spoiled the scene to hint at it; so, instead, it’ll maybe just let you down in retrospect: they couldn’t play fair, or you would’ve seen it coming.

Except then you see the kid, from the film where it’s practically a running gag that Tony kept working on ‘fly now to my hand’ tech, with little pieces of gear winging their way through the air over to where our hero was calling ‘em to him. Oh, right! That film makes this plot device look more like a fair-play mystery!
  #192  
Old 04-29-2019, 07:51 AM
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I'm really not a fan of the idea of Steve & Peggy being secretly married for decades.
Nothing which suggests that it was a secret. He presumably used an assumed name.
Plus, he is 12 years older than Steve Rogers was back I. ‘45 when he “died”.
People won’t necessarily make the connection beyond “resembles jacked Steve Rogers”.
His Sharon Carter interactions will be awkward though.
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Yes, it's the exact same picture takes out of Captain's file at the end of the first CA movie, when they're closing down the England SSR facility.

ETA: And remember near the beginning of Winter Soldier, when Steve is talking to aged Peggy, who has had children (as seen in the photos by her bed) but whose husband is apparently already dead. So Steve married to Peggy in the 50s is definitely not part of the Endgame reality.
In films and in the Agent Carter series, the identity and picture of her husband is never revealed. It was one of the lingering questions in the series. And it was not definitively answered, before it ended.
The show was cancelled in early 2016, right after the storylines for what became Infiniti War & Endgame were written.
I presume it’s not a coincidence.
  #193  
Old 04-29-2019, 08:46 AM
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The execution was fine. You just didn't get it. That okay.
Oh, please I thought the scene was fine but there weren't a hundred nuanced layers to unravel and examine -- either it worked for a viewer or it didn't. People who didn't care for it weren't failing to "get it" because there was very little to get. It just didn't work for them.
  #194  
Old 04-29-2019, 09:08 AM
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Oh, please I thought the scene was fine but there weren't a hundred nuanced layers to unravel and examine -- either it worked for a viewer or it didn't. People who didn't care for it weren't failing to "get it" because there was very little to get. It just didn't work for them.
...Oh, please bucketybuck claimed the scene didn't work because Captain Marvel absolutely didn't need help, when the fact that Captain Marvel failed to escape with the gauntlet shows she needed all the help she could get. That shows that bucketybuck didn't get what happened.
  #195  
Old 04-29-2019, 09:26 AM
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bucketybuck claimed the scene didn't work because Captain Marvel absolutely didn't need help, when the fact that Captain Marvel failed to escape with the gauntlet shows she needed all the help she could get. That shows that bucketybuck didn't get what happened.
No, it shows that (as mentioned many times previously) Captain Marvel has fluctuating Plot Power where she can face-smash her way through an entire starship one second and get stopped by a couple mooks the next. It wasn't a question of "Could she have done it?", it was "Let's frame this so we can show these women doing stuff as a team".

He understood that perfectly well.
  #196  
Old 04-29-2019, 09:47 AM
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I'm a bit confused with Thanos' timeline - as for this movie, he jumped forward from a point before he had done the original snap and was then dusted - even with putting the stones back, doesn't that leave the past without a Thanos to look for the stones and set this in motion? I get that by putting the stones back (how did they recreate the teseract or the scepter from just the stones?) that they kept the original timeline in tact - but this seems off. And I'm fine with that giving us a 'new' Gamora - which seems to imply that there should not be a Thanos .... or a Gamora to get captured with Quale....
This bothered me a bit as well, at first. But I thought of an explanation/fanwank for it: Tony's snap did not kill the people who were "dusted", but rather, that "dusting" was them being returned to their own time with no memories of what happens in the future. Even though the effect looked the same, it was in actuality different. After all, Tony Stark is not a killer like Thanos, and he is smart enough to understand not to cause time paradoxes.

I don't understand why so many people think Gamora is back. I thought that the last scene with the Guardians, which has Quill looking at a screen that is searching for Gamora and not finding her, was a clear indication that she was dusted with everyone else Thanos brought from 2014 (whatever the dusting meant - if my explanation is correct, than that works out well).
  #197  
Old 04-29-2019, 09:47 AM
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...Oh, please bucketybuck claimed the scene didn't work because Captain Marvel absolutely didn't need help, when the fact that Captain Marvel failed to escape with the gauntlet shows she needed all the help she could get. That shows that bucketybuck didn't get what happened.
She shouldn't have needed help. Nor should Thor for that matter, though we are talking about fat Thor so maybe he would. But this was a non-buffed up Thanos...he hadn't even gotten one of the gems yet when the fight started. The whole reason he became so ridiculous later on was he gained power every time he put another stone in the gauntlet.

I thought the scene was fine, but if I was of a nitpicking mindset I could see how the power fluctuated a lot depending on what they wanted to show. It made no actual, logical sense if your suspension of disbelief was broken. Mine actually did break several times, and it was yammering at me during this final fight scene quite a bit, though I was able to tell it to shut up while I watched and enjoyed. If I watch it again, I'll probably be in full pick the movie apart mode, since that's just the way my mind works.
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  #198  
Old 04-29-2019, 09:50 AM
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I don't understand why so many people think Gamora is back.
Pragmatically, because there's going to be a GotG 3 and I doubt that they're writing off one of the main characters. Especially because the whole core concept of GotG is them being a family and Gamora fills the hard-suffering mother role.

Back to a previous point, I would assume that Banner wished for the missing people to be safely returned which would preclude anyone reforming 30,000 feet in the sky or in front of a moving truck.

Last edited by Jophiel; 04-29-2019 at 09:53 AM.
  #199  
Old 04-29-2019, 09:53 AM
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No, it shows that (as mentioned many times previously) Captain Marvel has fluctuating Plot Power where she can face-smash her way through an entire starship one second and get stopped by a couple mooks the next. It wasn't a question of "Could she have done it?", it was "Let's frame this so we can show these women doing stuff as a team".

He understood that perfectly well.
Marvel didn't get stopped by anything that anybody did to her. She got stopped by Thanos wrecking the portal before she could throw the gauntlet into it. I guess I am only disagreeing with the implication that she got stopped by some mooks.

If Peter Parker had said "How's she going to get it to the portal before they wreck it" and the female heroes all say "she'll have help", does that negate all of the objections?
  #200  
Old 04-29-2019, 10:02 AM
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...Oh, please bucketybuck claimed the scene didn't work because Captain Marvel absolutely didn't need help, when the fact that Captain Marvel failed to escape with the gauntlet shows she needed all the help she could get. That shows that bucketybuck didn't get what happened.
My problem with the scene is not that we got a fist pumping moment of specifically female awesomeness (which could super-easily have been achieved in various other ways) or even a fist pumping moment of specifically female working-together awesomeness (probably somewhat tougher to organically write into the middle of a huge battle, particularly if you want them all to be working together as one unit); it's that it's logistically so ridiculous that it did (and continues to do so) take me somewhat out of the movie.

So... there's this huge battle, with lots of fog of war and confusion. At one moment on one place on the huge battlefield there is (ignoring the question of whether Captain Marvel should need help or not) a need for help. And, instantaneously, every single female hero from all over the battlefield, wherever they had been, whatever they had been doing, whoever they had been fighting; and NONE of the male heroes, no matter how near-by; all arrive in exactly the same place at exactly the same time to provide that help?

It's just silly. And yes, other silly things happen. For instance, the "characters always have time to have a heartfelt conversation and/or quips, even in the middle of an intense battle" cliche. I suppose that I've grown desensitized to them, because they're so much part of the language of blockbuster action moviemaking. Whereas the "all the women from all across the battlefield, despite working happily with their male counterparts before and after this one moment, suddenly work together for one single gender-segregated mission" trope is not yet particularly common.

Would I have objected just as much if it had been men? Hard to say, it's literally never happened... at least with a cast of this scale, with as many individual bad-ass male AND female characters, such that a sudden assembling of all the bad-ass male characters and specifically none of the bad-ass female characters would be so noticeable. (Obviously there have been plenty of movies in the past with tons of bad-ass male characters and NO bad-ass female characters, but that's not really a meaningful comparison.)


To repeat myself from earlier:
As for the women-team-up scene, after a few hours of pondering, I've realized how I would do it, which would also solve another minor problem, which is that Thanos's chief minions, who were quite serious mini-bosses in their own right last movie, barely registered.

So one of the (male) minions is fighting one of the female good guys. They trade blows, then he gets the upper hand, and makes a derisive sexist comment, calling her a little girl, or something. Then we do a series of camera cuts all around the battlefield as triumphant music plays, showing all the female heroes kicking ass, ending back at the initial fight, and she responds with a one liner like "I'm not a girl, I'm a woman" (but more funny) and dodges his death blow and chops his ass in half.

Same general celebratory effect, makes way more sense.
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