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  #751  
Old 06-03-2019, 10:37 AM
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How do you figure her sacrifice fit the (somewhat loose) definition of fridging?
How is it not? Is your problem with my statement that she put herself in the refrigerator? Because that's irrelevant. It's a fridging because it does nothing for Nat's story (c'mon, she didn't even reference the red in her ledger or anything) but it's entirely to serve the story of men - primarily Mohawkeye, but I'm including all the original Avengers in there. Damn straight, it's a fridging.

And Tony gets a funeral, Nat gets an angry Hulk flinging shit off a dock...because one of the main writers thinks she's just "been a cipher the whole time". Let's not forget, this is the same franchise that didn't think she deserved action figures, even for recreations of her own damn scenes, so the erasure is not surprising.

s/
But hey, all the other little women had their cool scene at the end, so we should all be grateful, I guess? /s
  #752  
Old 06-03-2019, 11:59 AM
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Regardless of interactions by the Time or Power stones, Banner and Stark need only include a clause like "and everything is okay" in their wish composition to have the Reality Stone just plain make everything okay. And, yes, that's intentionally a pretty broad brush with a lot of magic ink so that, addressing a common example, a remarriage would be nullified and the original couple would be back together and the kid that came out of the remarriage would still be around and, most importantly, everybody would be fine with it because the Red Gem would just plain take care of all those nanoscopic details everywhere.

I find this to be a bit of a stretch. I don't see it working this way, and in fact I would hope it would not.


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For that matter, I have read some meta-analyses that talk about the Left Behind series as yet-another Christianity-based+ show like Greatest American Hero or Touched by an Angel.

Two of these three throw me off, one especially. "Greatest American Hero" I watched as a kid and it didn't strike me as Christian. But that was a long time ago. "The Leftovers" I obviously watched much more recently, and I definitely don't agree that it is Christian.


ETA: Dibble is right: it's a fridging.

Last edited by SlackerInc; 06-03-2019 at 11:59 AM.
  #753  
Old 06-03-2019, 01:11 PM
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Two of these three throw me off, one especially. "Greatest American Hero" I watched as a kid and it didn't strike me as Christian. But that was a long time ago. "The Leftovers" I obviously watched much more recently, and I definitely don't agree that it is Christian.
Left Behind, not Leftovers. The Left Behind book were straight-up Christian apocalypse porn.
  #754  
Old 06-03-2019, 05:54 PM
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I think you have your Skrulls and your Kree mixed up.
Yes, I suspect you're right.
It's been a while since I saw the movie and the switch from "They're Invaders" to "They're just refugees in need of help" caught me by surprise and left me confused by the time I got out of the theater.

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Two of these three throw me off, one especially. "Greatest American Hero" I watched as a kid and it didn't strike me as Christian. But that was a long time ago.
There was an article around the turn-of-the-millenium that was discussing the upcoming Left Behind series (and, apparently movies, as well) and how they were the latest in a long history of Christian-themed shows that tried to provide a generally-positive message without going so far as to stab viewers with a pilum. The Lorne Greene led BattleStar Gallactica was cited as a "we're the lost 13th Tribe of Zion, wandering on our way" tale, and the creator of Greatest American Hero was quoted as saying the message beneath the comedy was "Things would go much better if you'd just follow The Book -- oh, you mean you ignored it and don't even know where it is?" with The Book being a not so subtle reference to The Bible. Touched by an Angel was another, more obvious one; and Highway to Heaven was rather blatant but kinda got screwed over by Producer/Star Michael Landon's sullied reputation.

The Leftovers was a different tale than the Left Behind series.

--G!
  #755  
Old 06-03-2019, 07:51 PM
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Regardless of interactions by the Time or Power stones, Banner and Stark need only include a clause like "and everything is okay" in their wish composition to have the Reality Stone just plain make everything okay. And, yes, that's intentionally a pretty broad brush with a lot of magic ink so that, addressing a common example, a remarriage would be nullified and the original couple would be back together and the kid that came out of the remarriage would still be around and, most importantly, everybody would be fine with it because the Red Gem would just plain take care of all those nanoscopic details everywhere.
I find this to be a bit of a stretch. I don't see it working this way, and in fact I would hope it would not.
Concur. Or Stark would have added "don't let me die/well fine, resurrect me" to his snap.
  #756  
Old 06-03-2019, 09:18 PM
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Left Behind, not Leftovers. The Left Behind book were straight-up Christian apocalypse porn.
I think SlackerInc is referring to the HBO show where the world suffers a "Rapture"-like event where 2% of the world's population just vanishes.

Oddly enough, that would be the second role for actress Carrie Coon involving a story where people are "miracled" out of existence.
  #757  
Old 06-03-2019, 09:31 PM
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How do you figure her sacrifice fit the (somewhat loose) definition of fridging?
I don't think I've heard that expression before. I think it certainly applies to what happened to Gamora in Infinity War. Which I guess makes Red Skull the Fridgemaster General.




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Originally Posted by squeegee
Concur. Or Stark would have added "don't let me die/well fine, resurrect me" to his snap.
I'm not sure what the specific rules are regarding the Powerglove Ex Machina Stark built to counter Thanos's McGuffin Glove from Infinity War.
  #758  
Old 06-03-2019, 10:27 PM
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Left Behind, not Leftovers. The Left Behind book were straight-up Christian apocalypse porn.

Oops! Yup, I didn't read that carefully enough. My bad.


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Concur. Or Stark would have added "don't let me die/well fine, resurrect me" to his snap.

Right, good point. And dissolving the new marriage without eliminating the kids they had together? How does that work? Who gets the kids? How is their parentage explained? That is too weird and just not okay, fundamentally.


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I think SlackerInc is referring to the HBO show where the world suffers a "Rapture"-like event where 2% of the world's population just vanishes.

Oddly enough, that would be the second role for actress Carrie Coon involving a story where people are "miracled" out of existence.

ORLY? What's the first? (BTW, for those who haven't seen HBO's "The Leftovers", which is one of the best TV shows ever made: they make it clear very early that it's not a Christian Rapture. Someone observes that okay, sure: the Pope disappeared--but so did Gary Busey, not to mention his dickhead brother-in-law.)

BTW, there's a movie called "The Rapture" from 1991, starring Tom Cruise's first wife Mimi Rogers, playing a swinger who

SPOILER:
converts to being a "Left Behind" type religious fanatic. She is actually shown to be correct in her theology at the end, although the movie--which I remember as being pretty good--doesn't come across like Christian propaganda, especially given the nudity and hard-R sex at the beginning.


ETA: Yes, the Red Skull is definitely a fridgemeister!

Last edited by SlackerInc; 06-03-2019 at 10:28 PM.
  #759  
Old 06-04-2019, 10:34 AM
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How is it not? Is your problem with my statement that she put herself in the refrigerator? Because that's irrelevant. It's a fridging because it does nothing for Nat's story (c'mon, she didn't even reference the red in her ledger or anything) but it's entirely to serve the story of men - primarily Mohawkeye, but I'm including all the original Avengers in there. Damn straight, it's a fridging.

And Tony gets a funeral, Nat gets an angry Hulk flinging shit off a dock...because one of the main writers thinks she's just "been a cipher the whole time". Let's not forget, this is the same franchise that didn't think she deserved action figures, even for recreations of her own damn scenes, so the erasure is not surprising.

s/
But hey, all the other little women had their cool scene at the end, so we should all be grateful, I guess? /s
The infrequent times I've heard the term used, along with reading the Wikipedia article, makes me think that the defining characteristic is a woman's death (or rape or torture) being important not for her arc, but for a man's. That is, the woman has no agency, she exists solely as a prop in the man's story.

In this case, Nat sacrificing herself (a) was the most agency possibly for herself, and (b) was arguably a reasonable final step on her own arc. She had red in her ledger, and she chose to balance it out by sacrificing herself to save the life of the man who had previously saved her.

(Compare that to Gamora dying in Infinity War, which largely served the purpose of developing the character of both Thanos and Quill, without telling us anything about her.)


(All of that said, yes, I agree we should have gotten more of a funeral or memorial or something for her. But I don't see how that makes it "fridging".)

(All of THAT said, I'm curious to hear what other dopers think, I'm not super-confident in my position here.)
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  #760  
Old 06-04-2019, 11:58 AM
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In this case, Nat sacrificing herself (a) was the most agency possibly for herself, and (b) was arguably a reasonable final step on her own arc
You and I remember Vormir very differently.
  #761  
Old 06-06-2019, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Grestarian View Post
Regardless of interactions by the Time or Power stones, Banner and Stark need only include a clause like "and everything is okay" in their wish composition to have the Reality Stone just plain make everything okay. And, yes, that's intentionally a pretty broad brush with a lot of magic ink so that, addressing a common example, a remarriage would be nullified and the original couple would be back together and the kid that came out of the remarriage would still be around and, most importantly, everybody would be fine with it because the Red Gem would just plain take care of all those nanoscopic details everywhere.

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I find this to be a bit of a stretch. I don't see it working this way, and in fact I would hope it would not.
A stretch? Why?

In modern times, marriage, divorce, and remarriage are no longer sanctioned or prohibited by religious authorities [Well, there's that one hold-out, isn't there?]. In modern times, couples split up and get back together years later, often with relationships during the intervening period. In modern times, there are people who participate in multi-partner amorous relationships. In modern times, people deal with the offspring resulting from other relationships (step-children from prior relationships, unintended progeny from affairs, et al) by including those children as family members. In modern times, whole families merge -- The Brady Bunch was a comedy of its time, but now it's no longer considered unusual, shocking, or worthy of five seasons of anecdotes to compress into scripts. I'm not saying it happens all the time and I'm not saying every case is amicable and level-headed. But these things do happen even now.

The critical difference that the Reality Stone could introduce would be the injection of understanding and compassion into everyone -- everyone who experienced the Snap and everyone who survived the Snap -- so that they know (who couldn't know; it would be news all over the universe) the Snap occurred, they know five years passed before the Return, and they compassionately accept that some people had difficulty being alone during that time.

Some people even discuss during their relationships "What would you do if I died tomorrow? Would you find someone else, or just go on alone?" and what they would prefer from or for each other. Lots of comedy scripts have come from spouses with terminal diagnoses and angels returning to help (force) the widow(er) into another suitable-to-the-deceased relationship. Lots of horror/ghost stories have been written about angry ghosts who don't like the widow(er)'s replacement choice. The Reality Stone would just negate the need for anyone's death and preclude the comedy/horror aspects. The survivors would have (did) go on during the five-year Absence and the Returned would just accept and deal with it compassionately.

Is compassion a bad thing to wish for?

Besides, it's The Reality Stone. The entries I've seen about it (Marvel and MCU Wiki, Marvel Fandom wiki, et cetera) state that it can alter reality even in ways that are physically or otherwise impossible -- and that's before the Power Stone gets added in. And, as someone else noted, the addition of the Mind Stone should make it possible to weed out the rules-lawyer/obnoxious DM twists and enact the user's compassionate intent instead of wickedly wrecking the results -- not withstanding Tony's death*.

And I'm still pissed that Vision didn't come back!

--G!

* There were mumblings about Robert Downey Jr. being tired of the Stark gig since the end of Iron Man 2; this was just his grand send-off.
  #762  
Old 06-08-2019, 09:07 AM
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You and I remember Vormir very differently.
I remember it like he does, not like you do.
  #763  
Old 06-08-2019, 11:24 AM
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A stretch? Why?

In modern times, marriage, divorce, and remarriage are no longer sanctioned or prohibited by religious authorities [Well, there's that one hold-out, isn't there?]. In modern times, couples split up and get back together years later, often with relationships during the intervening period. In modern times, there are people who participate in multi-partner amorous relationships. In modern times, people deal with the offspring resulting from other relationships (step-children from prior relationships, unintended progeny from affairs, et al) by including those children as family members. In modern times, whole families merge -- The Brady Bunch was a comedy of its time, but now it's no longer considered unusual, shocking, or worthy of five seasons of anecdotes to compress into scripts. I'm not saying it happens all the time and I'm not saying every case is amicable and level-headed. But these things do happen even now.

The critical difference that the Reality Stone could introduce would be the injection of understanding and compassion into everyone -- everyone who experienced the Snap and everyone who survived the Snap -- so that they know (who couldn't know; it would be news all over the universe) the Snap occurred, they know five years passed before the Return, and they compassionately accept that some people had difficulty being alone during that time.

Some people even discuss during their relationships "What would you do if I died tomorrow? Would you find someone else, or just go on alone?" and what they would prefer from or for each other. Lots of comedy scripts have come from spouses with terminal diagnoses and angels returning to help (force) the widow(er) into another suitable-to-the-deceased relationship. Lots of horror/ghost stories have been written about angry ghosts who don't like the widow(er)'s replacement choice. The Reality Stone would just negate the need for anyone's death and preclude the comedy/horror aspects. The survivors would have (did) go on during the five-year Absence and the Returned would just accept and deal with it compassionately.

This is actually worse than what I thought you meant. So...you are envisioning people knowing they were married to someone for three years, remembering everything that happened, but also knowing that now that their formerly snaptured spouse is back, they are just going to go back and be with them and not carry on with their new spouse any more (even if maybe they secretly liked them better--or maybe even if the snaptured spouse used to beat them). Although they will still take care of the children they produced. And the snaptured person will have no time elapse from their POV, but they will just instantly deal with all the change.

So basically, you are envisioning a shit-ton of brainwashing, repeated over and over billions of times (just here on Earth). Yeah, no. Do. Not. Want.
  #764  
Old 06-08-2019, 11:35 AM
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For all that, it would have made more sense for "time rewind, Thanos loses, everyone happy" which is a lot cleaner than "So you were married but not-married but your spouse has magic compassion and your kids have 1.5 - 2.5 parents and everyone is happy and..."
  #765  
Old 06-08-2019, 11:48 AM
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For all that, it would have made more sense for "time rewind, Thanos loses, everyone happy" which is a lot cleaner than "So you were married but not-married but your spouse has magic compassion and your kids have 1.5 - 2.5 parents and everyone is happy and..."

LOL, right. Except that I do like the story element of Tony only being on board if he can not undo the past five years for his family.
  #766  
Old 06-11-2019, 10:50 PM
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A new question has occurred to me. I stopped watching Agents of Shield a couple of seasons back but the show is still on the air. While they didn't do much in the way of crossovers, they did establish that the series is set in the same world as the movies. So how did they handle the Snap and the five year disappearance on the show? Or did they just ignore it?

Responses should probably be spoilered I suppose.
  #767  
Old 06-11-2019, 10:58 PM
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So basically, you are envisioning a shit-ton of brainwashing, repeated over and over billions of times (just here on Earth). Yeah, no. Do. Not. Want.
And that "just here on Earth" is a huge point. Even if we concede that Tony Stark could come up with a good answer to undoing all of the confusion caused by the five missing years, how could he possibly do the same for the entire universe? He's not going to understand the social mores of how alien races mate and raise their children.
  #768  
Old 06-12-2019, 12:42 AM
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The way it was described, Tony wouldn't have to know--the sort of "non-mischievous genie" in the Reality Stone would take care of all the deets. (Still do not want.)
  #769  
Old 06-12-2019, 08:38 AM
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A new question has occurred to me. I stopped watching Agents of Shield a couple of seasons back but the show is still on the air. While they didn't do much in the way of crossovers, they did establish that the series is set in the same world as the movies. So how did they handle the Snap and the five year disappearance on the show? Or did they just ignore it?

Responses should probably be spoilered I suppose.
SPOILER:
They've just ignored it. In one of the final episodes last year, which aired while Infinity War was out, there was a very offhand reference to it - something like

"Have you heard about the alien attack in New York?"

"I don't watch the news anymore. It drives me crazy".

This season, which is supposed to be at least a year later, but certainly not 5 years later, is absolutely not in the post-snap world. No characters are missing, there's no mention of half the population disappearing, etc. The writers are taking the position that since they didn't know when the new season would actually air - before or after Endgame, they wrote it as pre-snap. The reality IMHO is that the MCU/Feige does whatever they please (as they should) and the show was left behind a long time ago.
  #770  
Old 06-12-2019, 11:33 AM
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They should definitely portray the snapture.
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  #771  
Old 06-12-2019, 11:51 AM
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A new question has occurred to me. I stopped watching Agents of Shield a couple of seasons back but the show is still on the air. While they didn't do much in the way of crossovers, they did establish that the series is set in the same world as the movies. So how did they handle the Snap and the five year disappearance on the show? Or did they just ignore it?

Responses should probably be spoilered I suppose.
SPOILER:
To add on, Agents of SHIELD actually introduced time travel and multiple timelines last season (before Endgame did). So it's safe to assume that the show is now existing in a separate timeline where the Avengers were able to stop Thanos before the snap.
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Old 06-12-2019, 11:57 AM
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And that "just here on Earth" is a huge point. Even if we concede that Tony Stark could come up with a good answer to undoing all of the confusion caused by the five missing years, how could he possibly do the same for the entire universe? He's not going to understand the social mores of how alien races mate and raise their children.
Bruce was able to restore everyone who disappeared, without actually knowing each of the 3 billion disintegrated human beings (to say nothing of everyone who disappeared everywhere else in the galaxy.) For that matter, he was able to restore them without knowing how to form a human body out of dust. The person wearing the Gauntlet just has to let it know what they want to happen - the stones figure out the rest. So massive mind-wipe/mental manipulation could be done without knowing the specific mental characteristics of every species in the galaxy.

That said, I'm also opposed to this interpretation.
  #773  
Old 06-12-2019, 01:02 PM
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But just how strictly do you construe "what they want to happen"? "I want to restore everyone who was killed by the snap (and Natasha)" is a clear, simple wish. "I want to make everything peachy-keen forever" is not: Just what do you consider to be peachy-keen?
  #774  
Old 06-12-2019, 03:45 PM
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But just how strictly do you construe "what they want to happen"? "I want to restore everyone who was killed by the snap (and Natasha)" is a clear, simple wish. "I want to make everything peachy-keen forever" is not: Just what do you consider to be peachy-keen?
Are you asking me? It's not my theory and I don't support it. I'm just pointing out that the gauntlet clearly doesn't rely on the user's personal knowledge of how things work. It takes a desire and fulfills it. I have no idea how it would handle something abstract and unquantifiable like "Make everyone happy."
  #775  
Old 06-12-2019, 08:34 PM
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Bruce was able to restore everyone who disappeared, without actually knowing each of the 3 billion disintegrated human beings (to say nothing of everyone who disappeared everywhere else in the galaxy.) For that matter, he was able to restore them without knowing how to form a human body out of dust. The person wearing the Gauntlet just has to let it know what they want to happen - the stones figure out the rest. So massive mind-wipe/mental manipulation could be done without knowing the specific mental characteristics of every species in the galaxy.

That said, I'm also opposed to this interpretation.
I'm with Chronos on this one. I can see the stones being able to carry out a clear direction like "kill half the living creatures in the universe" or "bring all those creatures that were killed five years ago back to life". But I don't think they can extrapolate a vague direction like "bring all those creatures back but adjust things so nothing's awkward".
  #776  
Old 06-12-2019, 09:18 PM
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Right, especially since doing so would involve overriding eons of evolution and millennia of development of social norms.
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  #777  
Old 07-31-2019, 04:03 PM
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I haven't read the entire thread, but is there any explanation for why the gauntlet was on Thanos's right hand when Tony took the stones, when it had been a left gauntlet for the entire rest of two movies?
  #778  
Old 07-31-2019, 04:06 PM
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I haven't read the entire thread, but is there any explanation for why the gauntlet was on Thanos's right hand when Tony took the stones, when it had been a left gauntlet for the entire rest of two movies?
It's a different gauntlet from Infinity War. The one Stark created was right handed.
  #779  
Old 07-31-2019, 06:49 PM
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It's a different gauntlet from Infinity War. The one Stark created was right handed.
"Why are you smiling?"

"I know something you do not...."
  #780  
Old 08-01-2019, 09:50 AM
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I haven't read the entire thread, but is there any explanation for why the gauntlet was on Thanos's right hand when Tony took the stones, when it had been a left gauntlet for the entire rest of two movies?
This makes me laugh a little because although I'm right-handed, I cannot snap worth a damn with my right hand. Only with my left. Imagine if Thanos had finally gotten the chance for the re-snap and then had not been physically capable of the act.
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