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Old 06-10-2019, 07:10 AM
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Ilhan Omar is NOT Married to Her Brother


Probably. It's difficult to be sure, because she isn't as clear as she might be on who exactly she is/was married to, and also how personal expenses aren't personal expenses.

Fortunately, she has cleared everything with a statement
Quote:
We have been collaborative in this process and are glad the report showed that none of the money was used for personal use, as was initially alleged.
Unfortunately, this statement is a direct lie, but at least it wasn't anti-Semitic.

Perhaps she will issue further clarifications on why she filed joint tax returns with one guy while legally married to someone else. Or perhaps not. She apparently believes on some level that sharia law trumps US law -
Quote:
That the couple filed joint returns in 2014 and 2015 may prove legally problematic, since Omar was in those years still legally married to Ahmed Nur Said Elmi, whom she wed in 2009 and did not officially divorce until 2017. While Omar claims she was married to Hirsi in her Muslim ďfaith traditionĒ at the time, the IRS does not permit joint filing unless a couple is legally recognized as married by their home state.
Cite.

TO be fair, the details are rather convoluted -
Quote:
According to marriage records in Minnesotaís Hennepin County, Omar applied for a license in 2002 to marry her current husband, Ahmed Abdisalan Hirsi, who Omar says went by Ahmed Abdisalan Aden at the time. Records show a marriage certificate wasnít issued and Omar has said they didnít pursue a civil marriage but instead married in their Muslim ďfaith tradition.Ē

Details about Omarís faith wedding havenít been made public, but traditional Muslim and Somali marriages typically involve a process that includes approval by elders and a ceremony conducted by an imam.


Omar and Hirsi had two children, but ended their relationship in 2008, she has said.

Omar then married Ahmed Nur Said Elmi, whom she said is a British citizen, on Feb. 12, 2009, according to a marriage certificate issued in Hennepin County. Omar said that relationship ended in 2011 and the two divorced in their faith tradition, but Omar didnít take legal action to divorce him until 2017.

The divorce records say that Omar and Hirsi reunited and had a third child together in June 2012. Omar legally married Hirsi in early 2018, a month after her divorce from Elmi was finalized.
Cite.

Even Snopes isn't sure whether or not her former husband is her brother, which is not as reassuring as it might be.

Still, personal expenses that aren't personal, joint returns with people you aren't married to legally - I think she might want to produce a birth certificate showing she was really born in Hawaii.

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 06-10-2019, 07:29 AM
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Interesting-but what is the debate?
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Old 06-10-2019, 07:30 AM
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I'm having a lot of trouble untangling the snark from any actual factual assertions, but if I'm reading it correctly, then good for Omar for rectifying her mistake of using the wrong funds of approximately $3000. And good for her for accepting the punishment of a $500 fine. We should hold our elected officials to a high standard and expect them to promptly repay any funds that are misspent, and if they don't, they should be prosecuted.

As for the "married her brother" stuff, your cites don't actually provide any evidence of that. Snopes (which you didn't link to, unless I missed it) did not find a single shred of evidence that she "married her brother".

As far as I can tell, your cites tell a story of a talented and ambitious immigrant whose relationship history might be a bit complicated (with no evidence of any lawbreaking, aside from possibly filing for joint tax returns with someone she'd married traditionally but possibly not officially) and who misused approximately $3000 of campaign/political-office money.

IMO only the latter is even remotely an ethical concern. I'd consider supporting a candidate to defeat her if they had no such ethical concerns (which could include support for a politician, like, say, the President, who has committed ethical violations orders of magnitude greater in quanitity and scope).
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Old 06-10-2019, 07:34 AM
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I'd guess the debate is- is she or isn't she?
I have plenty of objections to her politics, but I just assumed this accusation was a baseless canard
based on some deliberate distortion of the facts (like Obama's nationality- there was some careless
reporting, even from people around him, before he ran for President). I had no idea there was still
some ambiguity on Omar's supposed marriage to her brother.
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Old 06-10-2019, 07:34 AM
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Two things...

1. I donít get where her brother comes into it.

2. Both Shodan and Andy threw in ad hominebs about current and former presidents. Those have nothing to do with anything, do they? What the hell is that all about?
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Old 06-10-2019, 07:42 AM
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JC, looks like a rant to me, but I'm not a moderator. There's way too much snark and not-real-questions asking for a debate, right?
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Old 06-10-2019, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance View Post
Two things...

1. I don’t get where her brother comes into it.
He doesn't, except from baseless conspiracy-theory smears.

Quote:
2. Both Shodan and Andy threw in ad hominebs about current and former presidents. Those have nothing to do with anything, do they? What the hell is that all about?
By the thread title and content, this seemed to be an attempt to denigrate Omar and imply she was unethical. I responded to this with the circumstances under which I might or might not support a candidate that opposed Omar.

But the OP was already a quasi-pitting, ISTM. Perhaps it should go there?

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 06-10-2019 at 07:45 AM.
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Old 06-10-2019, 08:11 AM
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I saw other people in other social media holding this up as some big scandal. A couple thousand dollars that was paid back including a fine? THAT'S the big scandal? Seems weak to me.
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Old 06-10-2019, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
Interesting-but what is the debate?
I guess the debate is, "Are Republicans still the party of ideas?"
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Old 06-10-2019, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance View Post
Two things...

1. I donít get where her brother comes into it.

2. Both Shodan and Andy threw in ad hominebs about current and former presidents. Those have nothing to do with anything, do they? What the hell is that all about?
1. Her brother comes into it because it is one of the rumors which is probably false, which is why I said it was probably false. Snopes only lists it as Unproven, but still.

2. The stuff about the birth certificate is an example of how a rumor can be proven false. Unfortunately, Ilhan Omar can't produce documents proving the other rumors about her are false, because they're not. Hence my cite of her lying when she said the misuse of campaign contributions were not for personal expenses, when it has been shown that they were.

Filing jointly with people you aren't married to is unethical and illegal. So producing her tax returns isn't going to clear her there either. See also my cites referring to marriage licenses and other documents - all proving that she did exactly what I said she did.

iiandyiiii threw in the reference to Trump because it's the SDMB. I don't think it's possible to discuss any wrongdoing by any politician, especially a Democrat, without getting that tu quoque sooner rather than later. If that's all that the SDMB can come up with, I guess that part of the debate is resolved.

So,

Resolved: Ilhan Omar used campaign funds for her own personal expenses.

Sounds like GQ to me - cites showing it have already been provided.

Resolved: Ilhan Omar lied when she said the investigation showed that campaign funds were not used for her personal expenses.

Likewise - already shown

Resolved: Ilhan Omar married her brother.

We could debate that, but that's going to be difficult absent any documentation, which is probably not forthcoming, because Somalia.

Resolved: Marriage and divorce in "the Muslim faith community" should count for the IRS.

We could debate that. My position is No, if for no other reason that it is too hard in Omar's case to keep track of who she is married to/divorced from/having children with/breaking up with/being reconciled with and the IRS can't be expected to just take her word for it.

Resolved: None of this counts because Trump sucks.

That sounds like the Pit to me, but it's more than a little redundant. I considered Elections, but Ilhan Omar is to date one of the two or three Democrats not running for President, and there are only so many spaces on the primary ballots.

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 06-10-2019, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
As far as I can tell, your cites tell a story of a talented and ambitious immigrant whose relationship history might be a bit complicated (with no evidence of any lawbreaking, aside from possibly filing for joint tax returns with someone she'd married traditionally but possibly not officially) and who misused approximately $3000 of campaign/political-office money.

IMO only the latter is even remotely an ethical concern.
You don't think that filing false tax returns is an ethical concern?
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Old 06-10-2019, 08:35 AM
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No evidence has been put forward that Omar married her brother. But why focus on reasonable criticism about misuse of funds when there are evidence free conspiracy theories to spread?
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Last edited by iiandyiiii; 06-10-2019 at 08:36 AM.
  #13  
Old 06-10-2019, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
You don't think that filing false tax returns is an ethical concern?
Knowingly doing so could well be, but that hasn't been alleged, AFAICT.
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Old 06-10-2019, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
1. Her brother comes into it because it is one of the rumors which is probably false, which is why I said it was probably false. Snopes only lists it as Unproven, but still.

2. The stuff about the birth certificate is an example of how a rumor can be proven false. Unfortunately, Ilhan Omar can't produce documents proving the other rumors about her are false, because they're not. Hence my cite of her lying when she said the misuse of campaign contributions were not for personal expenses, when it has been shown that they were.

Filing jointly with people you aren't married to is unethical and illegal. So producing her tax returns isn't going to clear her there either. See also my cites referring to marriage licenses and other documents - all proving that she did exactly what I said she did.

iiandyiiii threw in the reference to Trump because it's the SDMB. I don't think it's possible to discuss any wrongdoing by any politician, especially a Democrat, without getting that tu quoque sooner rather than later. If that's all that the SDMB can come up with, I guess that part of the debate is resolved.

So,

Resolved: Ilhan Omar used campaign funds for her own personal expenses.

Sounds like GQ to me - cites showing it have already been provided.

Resolved: Ilhan Omar lied when she said the investigation showed that campaign funds were not used for her personal expenses.

Likewise - already shown

Resolved: Ilhan Omar married her brother.

We could debate that, but that's going to be difficult absent any documentation, which is probably not forthcoming, because Somalia.

Resolved: Marriage and divorce in "the Muslim faith community" should count for the IRS.

We could debate that. My position is No, if for no other reason that it is too hard in Omar's case to keep track of who she is married to/divorced from/having children with/breaking up with/being reconciled with and the IRS can't be expected to just take her word for it.

Resolved: None of this counts because Trump sucks.

That sounds like the Pit to me, but it's more than a little redundant. I considered Elections, but Ilhan Omar is to date one of the two or three Democrats not running for President, and there are only so many spaces on the primary ballots.

Regards,
Shodan
If those were the things you wanted to debate, why didn't you put it that way in your OP? Why did you (purposely?) poison the well with all the snark. There was so much sarcasm and reverse questions that I really couldn't figure out what claims you were making. Also, if you wanted to debate those, why did you title the thread the way you did?

I still can't tell what's fact and what's snark from your OP and subsequent posts. Can you start again and post your actual claims with actual cites one way or the other? Is there anything that can really be debated?

For example, on the tax return thing, it seems clear she violated the law when she claimed her non-civil-marriage husband was her husband. What's the debate? Is it whether she knowingly filed it falsely?
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Old 06-10-2019, 08:45 AM
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You really hate that we elected a muslim, don't you.
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Old 06-10-2019, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
You don't think that filing false tax returns is an ethical concern?
If that is proven to indeed be the case then yes, that's an ethical concern.

I think that politicians should be required to disclose tax returns to ensure these kinds of ethical violations are identified and addressed early in their campaign and while in office. Do you agree?
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Old 06-10-2019, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
I don't think it's possible to discuss any wrongdoing by any politician, especially a Democrat, without getting that tu quoque sooner rather than later. If that's all that the SDMB can come up with, I guess that part of the debate is resolved.
Yes, it's terrible when the SDMB uses vague and loosely-supported tu quoque arguments in order to distract from and/or defend far more egregious legal and moral failings by the politicians it favors. I hate when the SDMB does that.
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Old 06-10-2019, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
You don't think that filing false tax returns is an ethical concern?
Maybe she should just invoke legislative privilege. Sure, it's a fictionalized power, but I haven't seen you criticize things made up out of whole cloth to stall legitimate investigations.
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Old 06-10-2019, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
I think that politicians should be required to disclose tax returns to ensure these kinds of ethical violations are identified and addressed early in their campaign and while in office. Do you agree?
I wager that you do not get an answer to this question.
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Old 06-10-2019, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
1. Her brother comes into it because it is one of the rumors which is probably false, which is why I said it was probably false. Snopes only lists it as Unproven, but still.
Ok, then. The brother stuff is nonsense. You should be ashamed to have baselessly rumormongered in Great Debates. Donít do it again.

Everyone, the brother stuff is officially off-topic. Do not discuss it nor bring it up even to respond to others. I hope thatís clear.
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Old 06-10-2019, 09:01 AM
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Knowingly doing so could well be, but that hasn't been alleged, AFAICT.
How can one NOT know to whom they are legally married?
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Old 06-10-2019, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Johnathan Chance
Ok, then. The brother stuff is nonsense. You should be ashamed to have baselessly rumormongered in Great Debates. Don’t do it again.

Everyone, the brother stuff is officially off-topic. Do not discuss it nor bring it up even to respond to others. I hope that’s clear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
How can one NOT know to whom they are legally married?
Dumb fat luck, eh?! You're off the hook in having to address the tax return disclosure question.
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Last edited by QuickSilver; 06-10-2019 at 09:10 AM.
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Old 06-10-2019, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
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Ok, then. The brother stuff is nonsense. You should be ashamed to have baselessly rumormongered in Great Debates. Donít do it again.

Everyone, the brother stuff is officially off-topic. Do not discuss it nor bring it up even to respond to others. I hope thatís clear.
Maybe you should edit the thread title then.
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Old 06-10-2019, 09:13 AM
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I still can't tell what's fact and what's snark from your OP and subsequent posts. Can you start again and post your actual claims with actual cites one way or the other?
The parts that are cited are factual. So I've already done that.

It has not been my experience that posting things a second time helps.

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 06-10-2019, 09:29 AM
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Shodan, I'm saying I can't follow your OP because you mix snark and non-question questions with your questions. Can you restate it with the relevant cites in a more normal way? For example:

---------
There are indications that Omar mishandled campaign finance money. Here's a cite with a relevant quote:

...

Further, it appears she lied about that. Here's a cite with a relevant quote:

...

I think it is unethical for her to have done this and she should be...<censured by the House? Thrown in jail? Something else we can debate?>
--------

Or don't. Your OP appears to be a rant to me and should have been posted in the pit. Your subsequent post that's in Debate form is too disconnected from the OP for me to bother making the connections. Do whatever you want.
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Old 06-10-2019, 09:41 AM
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You don't think that filing false tax returns is an ethical concern?
Republicans have lost the right to complain about ethics or tax returns without everyone pointing at them and laughing.
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Old 06-10-2019, 09:46 AM
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The Moderator Speaks


Upon thinking on it while driving to an appointment, the thread title and bit about her brother is pure trolling, Shodan.

Iím giving you a warning for it and closing the thread. Donít do this sort of nonsense again.
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