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Old 06-26-2013, 10:37 PM
lankyBlonde lankyBlonde is offline
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Should suicide be a human right?

Let me begin by first saying that I am in no way depressed or suicidal, I actually really enjoy life. But I was recently thinking about human rights (and the lack thereof in many parts of the world) and I feel like a certain, fundamental right has been wholly ignored or otherwise incorrectly enforced in many parts of the world. The right to die.

The most common argument that people pose when they're discussing this topic is that of free will. They claim that the suicidal individual is so impulsively driven by these suicidal urges that rationality and logic don't come into their equation of thought which makes us morally responsible to help them and to get them to see the "light." A lot of these people also falsely assume that life, or even mere existence in some cases, is always intrinsically positive and intrinsically better than death regardless of the circumstances. This comes off as being silly when you realize that death is a state that no human being has any speck of knowledge about. Nothing. Nada. Zero. We have absolutely no idea where we go, what we experience, who we become, and so forth. ANYTHING could happen after death and if someone wishes to find out what that is, who has a right to tell them they shouldn't?

Secondly, I can brain storm situations where I would much rather be dead than exist. If someone winds up in such a situation and wishes to leave, who has the right to force them to stay? It's like forcing someone to stay at a party that they're not enjoying.

Thirdly, we are forced into life just as a slave is forced to work. We had no say in the matter and even if life is a "gift", I think we can all intrinsically agree that it is up to the owner, and solely the owner, to decide what to do with his own gift, even if it means disposing of it.

Do you think suicide clinics should be set up where any adult of legal age can walk in and painlessly die? Maybe in a dimly lit room with a cute nurse who's holding a big needle? Maybe some soft music playing in the background? Or is this inhumane? But then if it's inhumane, isn't it also inhumane to force a suffering individual to exist just because YOU assume that things will get better for him?

Discuss.

Last edited by lankyBlonde; 06-26-2013 at 10:40 PM.
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Old 06-26-2013, 10:48 PM
outlierrn outlierrn is online now
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Yes, subject to adjudication on the basis of mental health.
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Old 06-26-2013, 10:55 PM
WhyNot WhyNot is offline
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It's hard to "discuss" when I agree with pretty much everything you wrote. I'd like to see some safeguards in place to ensure we're making at least a good faith attempt to properly diagnose and treat mental illness if that's why the person is having suicidal feelings. So I'm okay with screening for Depression before allowing suicide or assisted suicide.

But after ruling out inability to give informed consent and/or some minimum time of treatment for mental and physical disorders, if the person still wants to die...yeah, I'm okay with that. I think there are many, many fates worth than death, and unrelenting mental illness is certainly one of them in my book. Yes, sometimes people want to end their life because they have Depression. That doesn't mean they should never be allowed to end their lives if they have Depression.
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Old 06-26-2013, 11:58 PM
SeaDragonTattoo SeaDragonTattoo is offline
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This has been stirring around in my head since it happened. A couple of weeks ago, we ended up having to recommend euthanasia for a client's dog that was having seizures that we couldn't get under control. Likely it was due to "something bad" and we would have had to hospitalize the poor thing from Saturday to Monday under general anesthesia just to see the neurologist and confirm a diagnosis of something bad via MRI and then offer multiple thousands of additional dollars for surgery if possible, or euthanasia anyway.

This client hadn't been through euthanasia of a pet before, and as I explained the procedure, I could see the wheels turning in her head. She furrowed her brow, paused, looked at me earnestly and said, "well, why don't they do that for people?" What could I say? It's legal in three states (in a different form, and only for confirmed terminal illness, but still), and I plan to move to one of them when I get older. The rest of what I have to say about it would take the rest of the night.

I mentioned an aunt of mine who died from Huntington's, and my client knew of someone who died of it, too. We both agreed that was no dignified way to go, and it was really kind of a horrible way to go since they basically starved to death. Why would we choose that over drinking down some bitter pentobarbital and being able to say good bye with dignity?
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Old 06-27-2013, 12:05 AM
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I think nowadays fewer people try to defend the status quo with moral arguments. I think it comes down more to the practicalities of how we can make sure people aren't coerced into it and all that.

But while I see some of the difficulties I don't think they are sufficient to mean it should stay outright illegal.

God forbid, but if a relative or friend of mine was virtually paralyzed and incontinent, and decided they wanted to press that button I'd understand completely (because I'd want the same).
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Old 06-27-2013, 12:33 AM
naita naita is offline
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Originally Posted by lankyBlonde View Post
Thirdly, we are forced into life just as a slave is forced to work. We had no say in the matter and even if life is a "gift", I think we can all intrinsically agree that it is up to the owner, and solely the owner, to decide what to do with his own gift, even if it means disposing of it.
I can agree with that, with some limitations, but unlike you I recognise that, no, we don't all intrinsically agree with that. And I can understand and sympathise with those weighing the impact on others more heavily, even in principle, even if I don't

Quote:
Do you think suicide clinics should be set up where any adult of legal age can walk in and painlessly die? Maybe in a dimly lit room with a cute nurse who's holding a big needle? Maybe some soft music playing in the background? Or is this inhumane? But then if it's inhumane, isn't it also inhumane to force a suffering individual to exist just because YOU assume that things will get better for him?
Imagine I have a wife, two children, a ton of friends, a job benefiting my local and wider community, and a bout of soul crushing depression. After being brought back from my suicide attempt I'm immensely grateful. Or imagine I'm Stephen Fry. Would your suicide booths evaluate people for depression? Measure their lives for an acceptable level of suffering to escape? Where do you get off assuming a perfect life is good enough for someone?

Personally I think choosing euthanasia when dealing with prolonged and incurable suffering should be an option, but your oversimplified, short-sighted and pragmatism free suggestion is something else entirely.

Last edited by naita; 06-27-2013 at 12:34 AM.
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Old 06-27-2013, 12:37 AM
Mnemnosyne Mnemnosyne is offline
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A facility for this is only really needed for those who are of sound mind but not able-bodied, which probably accounts for the majority of people who would indeed want to kill themselves. After all, an able-bodied adult that is thinking rationally and logically will easily be able to kill themselves. Plenty of ways to do it, and if you're thinking clearly, there's not going to be any of this failed attempt nonsense; you're going to be able to come up with a pretty much foolproof method of ending your existence. If you fail at suicide, it's pretty much a clear indication you weren't thinking clearly enough to do it right.

For those people that aren't able bodied, though, yeah, there's no reason we shouldn't permit medical professionals to assist in this, and require medical staff to at least convey the person's request to the appropriate people (since we cannot assume that this person can seek out such people on their own, we must require those tending to them to contact the appropriate people on their behalf).
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Old 06-27-2013, 12:53 AM
jackdavinci jackdavinci is offline
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In principle, I think people who are of sound mind but have a severe legitimate incurable illness that causes intense physical suffering should be able to pass on. And I think in principle, people should be able to sell their non essential organs (are there any besides kidneys?). But in both cases, we need stricter laws in order to avoid situations where people are being pressured into it.
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Old 06-27-2013, 01:32 AM
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Yes. I have felt for most of my life that suicide is a viable option. I have been dealing with/suffering from major depressive disorder for over 40 years and thinking about suicide all that time as well. I have a plan on how I would/will do it that involves the fewest people as and as little mess as possible. In fact I have it penciled in for next week, but then I do that every month.

There should be safe guards in place to prevent people from an impulsive act in a moment of crisis, but yes it should be legal.

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Maybe in a dimly lit room with a cute nurse who's holding a big needle?
I would prefer a hunky nurse and a room full of kittens, with a few in my lap as I fall a sleep for the last time.
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Old 06-27-2013, 02:46 AM
tralfamidor tralfamidor is offline
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A person's most fundamental property is his person; his life; his existence. If any property at all should be protected by property rights, that property should. That includes the right to dispose of that property in any way the owner sees fit. He does not have to justify his decision to anyone, only to perform such disposal in a way that will not endanger public safety.

Religion takes this fundamental right away, since the imaginary deity is presumed to be the one that owns the person (or, if you like, his "soul"). Many, many people have been coerced into prolonging a life of misery because they were told that the Great Enchilada in the Sky would be angered if they committed suicide.
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Old 06-27-2013, 03:02 AM
clairobscur clairobscur is offline
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Yes, subject to adjudication on the basis of mental health.
Agreed.
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Old 06-27-2013, 03:34 AM
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Plenty of ways to do it, and if you're thinking clearly, there's not going to be any of this failed attempt nonsense; you're going to be able to come up with a pretty much foolproof method of ending your existence. If you fail at suicide, it's pretty much a clear indication you weren't thinking clearly enough to do it right.
If you don't mind going out in a painful and terrifying way, then there are lots of pretty good methods, yes. But I don't believe people should have to go out that way.

In terms of non-horrible methods, it's not so easy to find something that won't possibly leave you alive but very sick / a vegetable, or won't attract the attention of the authorities (as obtaining many poisons / ingredients is likely to do).

My personal guess is that the most practical, struggle/pain free way is the car exhaust method. But I'm not sure, and not sure how to become sure, and that's my point.
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Old 06-27-2013, 08:28 AM
Phnord Prephect Phnord Prephect is offline
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If you have the right to life, you have the right to death: if you don't, it's not a right, it's an obligation.

The right to remain silent is not an obligation to remain silent; the right to vote is not an obligation to vote. The right to speak freely is not an obligation to speak; the right to pursue happiness does not obligate one to do so.

Why should the right to life be any different?

And what about zombie pirates, should they be allowed to not-not-die?
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Old 06-27-2013, 08:41 AM
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I don't think mental illness should be a disqualifying condition. The only thing that would be a huge concern to me would be impulsive people in a heightened emotional state taking advantage of services devoted to suicide assistance. This could be prevented by requiring a waiting period. But whether the pain is physical or psychological, it is still pain. Everyone who is suffering should be able to opt out of this world, not just those who fall in one arbitrary category of illness.

In my ideal situation, the waiting period for suicide assistance would be six months to a year. The act of signing up qualifies you for immediate counseling services provided by the government (funded through the licensing/permit fees paid annually by euthanasia clinics). You don't have to have counseling, but you have the option. And by law, anyone who is in an active business or domestic partnership must demonstrate they have legally terminated these relationships OR have notified their partners at least 30 days before their "departure" date. People with children under the age of 18 are disqualified from government-sanctioned suicide unless they can demonstrate these children will be amply provided for financially (e.g., guardians have already been appointed and have been notified that a suicide is impending). Debtors (including anyone carrying a mortgage or a car note) and people awaiting civil or criminal court cases would be disqualified. These measures would be in place to ensure that people aren't trying to weasel out of their worldly obligations to society. They are still free to exit on their own, though.

I think suicide should be legal. But the government has a vested interest in overseeing it and making sure everyone and their momma isn't bailing out. Government has invested resources in all of us. As sterile as this sounds, suicide represents a waste to society. So government is obligated to prevent suicides when it makes sense to do so.
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Old 06-27-2013, 08:58 AM
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Sadly, when Jack Kevorkian died nobody really took his place as an advocate for this simple right.
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Old 06-27-2013, 09:00 AM
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In my ideal situation, the waiting period for suicide assistance would be six months to a year.
So, someone with terminal cancer and a life expectancy of a month is shit-outa-luck?
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Old 06-27-2013, 10:56 AM
monstro monstro is online now
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So, someone with terminal cancer and a life expectancy of a month is shit-outa-luck?
If you only have a month to live, you are the definition of someone who is shit out of luck.

I'm fine with having a very short waiting period in those kinds of cases. But I don't think those kinds of cases would constitute the majority of clientele seeking suicide assistance.

Last edited by monstro; 06-27-2013 at 10:57 AM.
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Old 06-27-2013, 11:14 AM
nashiitashii nashiitashii is offline
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Yes it should be a right, subject to a free mental health screening and 14 day cooling off period.
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Old 06-27-2013, 11:48 AM
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I wouldn't support people walking in off the street. There should be a process for getting a suicide prescription. Much like how transgendered people can't just get a sex change operation on a whim. There should be some period of time where the person has to meet with counselors and/or doctors to evaluate options and make sure that suicide is the right decision.

I wouldn't want people to commit suicide because their relationship broke up or they lost their job. It's a permanent solution, so it should be for something which is a permanent problem.
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Old 06-27-2013, 10:09 PM
austerity austerity is offline
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"her body, her choice" is the prolife person's mantra accepted by society.

why isn't "my body, my choice" the suicidial person's mantra equally accepted by society?

no one has the right to refuse a human how he or she disposes of his or her own body.
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Old 06-27-2013, 11:27 PM
GreedySmurf GreedySmurf is offline
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Sadly, when Jack Kevorkian died nobody really took his place as an advocate for this simple right.
He probably doesn't have a high profile in the States, an Australian Dr Philip Nitschke is a right to die advocate. He actually got legislation passed in the Northern Territory legalising Euthanasia, and assisted four people to end their lives before the Feds stepped in and overturned the law.

I can think of any number of scenarios, where I wouldn't want to continue existing. I for one am fully supportive of peoples right to end their life. There definitely needs to be certain safeguards in any sort of 'euthanasia clinic', including but not limited to waiting periods, and mandatory counselling.

An interesting aside, I presume we would see an immediate change in the policy documents for life insurance coverage.

Last edited by GreedySmurf; 06-27-2013 at 11:29 PM.
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Old 06-28-2013, 12:41 PM
YogSothoth YogSothoth is offline
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I support suicide with little restrictions.

Because I am atheist, I don't believe life is intrinsically positive and death is intrinsically negative. Therefore, if someone dies, but for the wrong reasons, its irrelevant, because they are not around to care. Therefore I would support healthy adults, psychologically imbalanced people, or otherwise mentally ill people to choose to die. They will never regret it because you cannot regret anything while dead, so dying, even if one were crazy, is not a bad thing
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Old 06-28-2013, 01:41 PM
Chief Pedant Chief Pedant is offline
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In principle, I think people who are of sound mind but have a severe legitimate incurable illness that causes intense physical suffering should be able to pass on. And I think in principle, people should be able to sell their non essential organs (are there any besides kidneys?). But in both cases, we need stricter laws in order to avoid situations where people are being pressured into it.
I would cut out the suffering part and just say, "I think people who are of sound mind should be allowed to kill themselves."

This is, however, a completely unworkable statement.

Who decides what a sound mind is? For some folks, wanting to kill yourself is prima facie evidence of an unsound mind. And anyone in the psychotherapy business will tell you that the main problem with suicide is its irreversibility. The average person whose suicide attempt fails changes their mind at a later date.

In any case, there is no practical way to keep anyone of sound mind from committing suicide if they are able bodied. If they are not, then we are talking about assisted suicide which is a whole other topic and should be tightly regulated.
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Old 06-29-2013, 08:34 AM
Lust4Life Lust4Life is offline
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If we keep on overpopulating the planet at the rate we are, then I suspect that it will.

Not on the grounds that it will help, but because as the numbers become too large to really understand, the value of human life will inevitably fall in the consciousness of the many.

Personally I'm against the right to suicide, as what can start off as a right becomes obligatory in some circumstances .

You're too old, you've had your life, you're using up resources that the young need, now move over !
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Old 06-29-2013, 08:49 AM
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Personally I'm against the right to suicide, as what can start off as a right becomes obligatory in some circumstances .

You're too old, you've had your life, you're using up resources that the young need, now move over !
Right now in the US, women have the right to have an abortion. However, they don't have a right to kill their babies once they have been birthed (and in most jurisdictions, can't abort their babies after a certain period of time either). We've had abortion for a long time and somehow we haven't slid down the "inevitable" slippery slope.
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Old 06-29-2013, 10:58 AM
Lust4Life Lust4Life is offline
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I'm pro choice myself and always have been.

Abortion isn't actually killing, because a piece of biological, non sentient, clockwork is an it, not a person.

Just like sperm and eggs.
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Old 06-29-2013, 11:47 AM
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I'm pro choice myself and always have been.

Abortion isn't actually killing, because a piece of biological, non sentient, clockwork is an it, not a person.

Just like sperm and eggs.
My point is that you are committing the slippery slope fallacy. Just because we allow abortion doesn't mean we allow babies to be slaughtered. Just because we give women the right to abortion doesn't mean that women are made to feel obligated to use it.

If we allowed suicide, it would not logically follow that anyone would be obligated to commit it. People might use it as an option when they wouldn't have otherwise, but that's not the same thing as feeling obligated to.
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Old 06-29-2013, 03:19 PM
Lust4Life Lust4Life is offline
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In the U.K. its already happening with old people.

When my old mum (passed on now) had an aneurism, her doctor rang me up and asked me how far I wanted him to go to save her if she had another one, as she had very vigourusly expressed her desire to live as long as was humanly possible, I told him to treat her life as you would your own.
I was shocked that he even had the cheek to ask me.

Theres been scandals lately about a N.H.S. project called Gateway whos purpose is to supposedly assist the terminally ill to pass on easily.

The normal process is to deny them liquids and pump them full of drugs.

Except that they discovered that some weren't actually terminally ill, (And are still alive and WELL today only because their families tended to them in hospital against the hospitals wishes .)
And it was also found that some of the patients didn't want an assisted passage.

There are also reports of people who get ill over a certain age have been denied treatments.

What particulary infuriates me is smug youngsters trying to lay a guilt trip on OAP s, with the mantra that people are living longer now and are draining resources.

As though people who have worked and paid into the system all of their lives should feel bad about earning their just reward rather then freeing up THEIR money for feckless people having more offspring then they can afford.

No doubt when these idiots reach 70 they'll do the decent thing and dispose of themselves , not !

But luckily for them its a long, long way away, and no doubt they'll change their tune as they get older, or laugh off their criticism of todays old people as the rashness of youth , ha, ha, ha .

Unless this trend is nipped in the bud, vulnerable old people will increasingly be pressured into early termination , some of them, no doubt by greedy family members eager to get their hands on the loot.

For the overwhelming majority of people if they really, really wish to kill themselves they can do unassisted, the human body is a very frail thing.

But yes I do realise that there are some who wish to die but because of their debilitating illness are physically unable to.

But if we introduce a culture ofso called "Choice" I think that more people will suffer then benefit.

You do realise that you're blocking that hospital bed for someone younger whos got their whole life ahead of them don't you ?
No, no I'm not saying that you're selfish , or hinting at what you should do, just saying is all.
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Old 07-01-2013, 03:25 PM
lekatt lekatt is offline
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Let me begin by first saying that I am in no way depressed or suicidal, I actually really enjoy life. But I was recently thinking about human rights (and the lack thereof in many parts of the world) and I feel like a certain, fundamental right has been wholly ignored or otherwise incorrectly enforced in many parts of the world. The right to die.

The most common argument that people pose when they're discussing this topic is that of free will. They claim that the suicidal individual is so impulsively driven by these suicidal urges that rationality and logic don't come into their equation of thought which makes us morally responsible to help them and to get them to see the "light." A lot of these people also falsely assume that life, or even mere existence in some cases, is always intrinsically positive and intrinsically better than death regardless of the circumstances. This comes off as being silly when you realize that death is a state that no human being has any speck of knowledge about. Nothing. Nada. Zero. We have absolutely no idea where we go, what we experience, who we become, and so forth. ANYTHING could happen after death and if someone wishes to find out what that is, who has a right to tell them they shouldn't?

Secondly, I can brain storm situations where I would much rather be dead than exist. If someone winds up in such a situation and wishes to leave, who has the right to force them to stay? It's like forcing someone to stay at a party that they're not enjoying.

Thirdly, we are forced into life just as a slave is forced to work. We had no say in the matter and even if life is a "gift", I think we can all intrinsically agree that it is up to the owner, and solely the owner, to decide what to do with his own gift, even if it means disposing of it.

Do you think suicide clinics should be set up where any adult of legal age can walk in and painlessly die? Maybe in a dimly lit room with a cute nurse who's holding a big needle? Maybe some soft music playing in the background? Or is this inhumane? But then if it's inhumane, isn't it also inhumane to force a suffering individual to exist just because YOU assume that things will get better for him?

Discuss.

Not much of anything I can agree with here. Murder is against the law and so is self-murder. That is why it is not a right. I spend a lot of time talking people out of committing suicide. I am almost always successful and they are very grateful to me for doing so once they realize what has happened to them. They are younger people usually in good health. I am one of those old people (75) who enjoys life and will continue to do so until I pass.

Now we do know something about the afterlife from millions of people who have died for short periods of time and came back to tell us about it. This is true and has been scientifically studied. I don't care if you don't believe. I have been there.

We don't come into this world by accident we ask to come here and come because we requested it. There is always a reason for us to come here and it is for learning. This world is to be understood.

This world has seen many civilizations come and go. Some just disappear without apparent reason so the scientists make up a reason, earthquakes, famine, floods, etc. We need not worry about population the weather of plagues will handle that.

We are here to grow up and learn to help each other. To stop fighting and grabbing for money and power and other senseless things. Morals count big time here.
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Old 07-01-2013, 03:40 PM
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Not much of anything I can agree with here. Murder is against the law and so is self-murder. That is why it is not a right. I spend a lot of time talking people out of committing suicide. I am almost always successful and they are very grateful to me for doing so once they realize what has happened to them.
Why are lots of suicidal people coming to you for help? Are you a professional therapist? Suicide is pretty damn rare, so why do you encounter it so often?
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Old 07-01-2013, 03:44 PM
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Now we do know something about the afterlife from millions of people who have died for short periods of time and came back to tell us about it. This is true and has been scientifically studied. I don't care if you don't believe. I have been there.
Did you have some other experience other than the dream you described on your website-one where you went to a hospital or had a doctor declare that you were clinically dead for a short period of time?
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Old 07-01-2013, 03:44 PM
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When my old mum (passed on now) had an aneurism, her doctor rang me up and asked me how far I wanted him to go to save her if she had another one, as she had very vigourusly expressed her desire to live as long as was humanly possible, I told him to treat her life as you would your own.
I was shocked that he even had the cheek to ask me.
I would want my own not suffer horribly before an inevitable end or live indefinitely as a vegetable. He asked because not everyone thinks that the quantity of life is more important than the quality of life. It wasn't cheek, it was compassion.

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And it was also found that some of the patients didn't want an assisted passage.
Then who authorized it? Did these people have living wills? (Or the UK equivalent) If they're just killing people off with consulting anyone or without clear consent, then that's wrong. But no one here is advocating that.

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There are also reports of people who get ill over a certain age have been denied treatments.
Should an available heart go to an 80 year old coronary heart disease patient?

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But yes I do realise that there are some who wish to die but because of their debilitating illness are physically unable to.

But if we introduce a culture ofso called "Choice" I think that more people will suffer then benefit.
So taking choice away from people is the right answer?

Last edited by hotflungwok; 07-01-2013 at 03:47 PM.
  #33  
Old 07-01-2013, 04:09 PM
Tethered Kite Tethered Kite is offline
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I've spent oceans of time with suicidal people. Trying to find the magic words to "fix" it used to keep me awake at night. And I've lost several people close to me to suicide.

Of all the people I've sat with and tried to help find their way about six of them have written me later thanking me for my help. If I had a single letter I would have been happy that I made a difference for someone. It's kinda goofy but some of us are just put together that way.

I won't go into my cumparsita here but the trials I've survived have been sufficiently grueling. Not worth running down the little chant of sorrows anymore.

But what I have learned is that I'm tough as nails and have still managed to keep a tender heart. And I never learned any of that from the good times. So when Hell shows up for breakfast I put on the skillet and expect payment back in the form of new skills and a deeper understanding of what it means to be given one single rapidly shortening life.

But, I've moved on from trying to change people's minds about their choices. I can drop a hint or two but no more lost sleep for me. And I'll hold hands and listen if asked.

So no. Go ahead, all you folks who feel terribly imposed upon for not being consulted whether you wanted to be born or not. Many of you could be helped simply by looking outward rather than inward. The tools for improving your lives are available to anyone willing to google them and discipline himself. Expect it to be difficult.

Severe physical pain from disease or intractable mental illness is a horse of a different color. It grieves me that some have to suffer this way and they, too should have some avenue of relief, if desired, I think.

I don't like the idea of institutionalizing the process. Perhaps medical people could provide the materials and information and offer to be standing by for those who don't want supervision.

But for myself, I expect I'll keep putting one foot in front of the other. Because you don't want to leave before the good stuff happens. And you can't make good stuff happen when you're not around.
  #34  
Old 07-01-2013, 04:27 PM
ReticulatingSplines ReticulatingSplines is offline
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Murder is against the law and so is self-murder. That is why it is not a right.
Uh huh. So since it's illegal to take someone's wallet and throw it off a cliff, it's also illegal to take your own wallet and throw it off a cliff, right? Ironclad logic right there.
  #35  
Old 07-01-2013, 04:41 PM
lekatt lekatt is offline
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Originally Posted by Tethered Kite View Post
I've spent oceans of time with suicidal people. Trying to find the magic words to "fix" it used to keep me awake at night. And I've lost several people close to me to suicide.

Of all the people I've sat with and tried to help find their way about six of them have written me later thanking me for my help. If I had a single letter I would have been happy that I made a difference for someone. It's kinda goofy but some of us are just put together that way.

I won't go into my cumparsita here but the trials I've survived have been sufficiently grueling. Not worth running down the little chant of sorrows anymore.

But what I have learned is that I'm tough as nails and have still managed to keep a tender heart. And I never learned any of that from the good times. So when Hell shows up for breakfast I put on the skillet and expect payment back in the form of new skills and a deeper understanding of what it means to be given one single rapidly shortening life.

But, I've moved on from trying to change people's minds about their choices. I can drop a hint or two but no more lost sleep for me. And I'll hold hands and listen if asked.

So no. Go ahead, all you folks who feel terribly imposed upon for not being consulted whether you wanted to be born or not. Many of you could be helped simply by looking outward rather than inward. The tools for improving your lives are available to anyone willing to google them and discipline himself. Expect it to be difficult.

Severe physical pain from disease or intractable mental illness is a horse of a different color. It grieves me that some have to suffer this way and they, too should have some avenue of relief, if desired, I think.

I don't like the idea of institutionalizing the process. Perhaps medical people could provide the materials and information and offer to be standing by for those who don't want supervision.

But for myself, I expect I'll keep putting one foot in front of the other. Because you don't want to leave before the good stuff happens. And you can't make good stuff happen when you're not around.
You are doing a good job. Listening and holding hands is great.It is true that you can't change other people minds so it doesn't help to try. Lead them to change their own minds. We need millions like you, because you care and that is what matters.
  #36  
Old 07-01-2013, 04:43 PM
lekatt lekatt is offline
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Uh huh. So since it's illegal to take someone's wallet and throw it off a cliff, it's also illegal to take your own wallet and throw it off a cliff, right? Ironclad logic right there.
Yes it is a matter of ownership easy logic.
  #37  
Old 07-01-2013, 04:43 PM
lankyBlonde lankyBlonde is offline
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Not much of anything I can agree with here. Murder is against the law and so is self-murder. That is why it is not a right. I spend a lot of time talking people out of committing suicide. I am almost always successful and they are very grateful to me for doing so once they realize what has happened to them. They are younger people usually in good health. I am one of those old people (75) who enjoys life and will continue to do so until I pass.

Now we do know something about the afterlife from millions of people who have died for short periods of time and came back to tell us about it. This is true and has been scientifically studied. I don't care if you don't believe. I have been there.

We don't come into this world by accident we ask to come here and come because we requested it. There is always a reason for us to come here and it is for learning. This world is to be understood.

This world has seen many civilizations come and go. Some just disappear without apparent reason so the scientists make up a reason, earthquakes, famine, floods, etc. We need not worry about population the weather of plagues will handle that.

We are here to grow up and learn to help each other. To stop fighting and grabbing for money and power and other senseless things. Morals count big time here.

Wow. I am shocked by your ignorance, stupidity, and logic.

(1) Self murder /=/ murder. It is illegal for me to go out and tattoo a giant penis on your face because that is YOUR face and YOUR body. If I wish to have a giant penis tattoo on MY face, that is MY right. Do you seriously not understand the distinction?

(2) Actually we don't know anything about what happens when we die. All we have are stories and myths and tales but there is absolutely nothing even remotely concrete. This is pretty much inarguable.

(3) So you're telling me you vividly remember making a conscious decision to be born? I don't and neither do billions of people. Are you trolling mate?

Last edited by lankyBlonde; 07-01-2013 at 04:44 PM.
  #38  
Old 07-01-2013, 04:53 PM
lekatt lekatt is offline
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Wow. I am shocked by your ignorance, stupidity, and logic.

(1) Self murder /=/ murder. It is illegal for me to go out and tattoo a giant penis on your face because that is YOUR face and YOUR body. If I wish to have a giant penis tattoo on MY face, that is MY right. Do you seriously not understand the distinction?

(2) Actually we don't know anything about what happens when we die. All we have are stories and myths and tales but there is absolutely nothing even remotely concrete. This is pretty much inarguable.

(3) So you're telling me you vividly remember making a conscious decision to be born? I don't and neither do billions of people. Are you trolling mate?
I don't remember being born but others do, you can find them on the web under Pre-Birth Experiences. We do know about the afterlife in the same way. I just don't see any connection between (1) and what I wrote.
  #39  
Old 07-01-2013, 04:56 PM
lekatt lekatt is offline
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Why are lots of suicidal people coming to you for help? Are you a professional therapist? Suicide is pretty damn rare, so why do you encounter it so often?
Suicide is rampant in the military and among young people. It has tripled in the last 25 years.
  #40  
Old 07-01-2013, 05:13 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
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It should be, yes. Granted it does cause tons of pain and suffering for family and friends, and their suffering will be amplified after the person dies. But they aren't the ones who have to suffer the way the individual in question suffers. If a person has to suffer, they have a right to end the suffering. Either way, someone will be in pain and miserable.

For philosophical reasons, the connection between suicide and mental illness, and the harm suicide causes to those around the person who commits it suicide will likely never be seen as a right. But it should be.
  #41  
Old 07-01-2013, 05:20 PM
LilyoftheField LilyoftheField is offline
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I am one of those old people (75) who enjoys life and will continue to do so until I pass.

See, here's the thing - you can't really know that. I think that it's great that you continue to enjoy life up into your old age (and I don't think its a stretch to call 75 'old age') - but how can you possibly know that you will continue to enjoy life as you do now 'until you pass'??? how can you possibly know that? You don't know that, you just make an educated guess, based on how you've done up til now and that's great...but, I'm sorry. You don't really 'know'.

any of a number of unforeseen things could happen to you between 75 and 'passing'. You could fall, or get in a car accident, or stand too close to a bomb on a city street, or get hit by a bus, or get a chronic debilitating disease, or have a stroke - well, I could go on but you get the idea. You can't predict all the possibilities. And you can't predict what effect any of those things might have on your love of life.

And, of all the possibilities, you also can't predict which might result in permanent pain and/or disability and/or mental incapacity. So, I'm sorry, but it seems to me to be very smug and complaisant to say something like 'I'll always enjoy life - 'cuz that's just the kind of person I am!'

Maybe you do have psychic abilities. Maybe you can predict the future for yourself. I wish I could...

But, otherwise - I'm sorry but I just can't let you get away with the whole 'I'm 75 and I feel great and I love life - so there's no excuse for the rest of you guys not to feel the same way!
  #42  
Old 07-01-2013, 05:24 PM
WhyNot WhyNot is offline
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I don't remember being born but others do, you can find them on the web under Pre-Birth Experiences. We do know about the afterlife in the same way. I just don't see any connection between (1) and what I wrote.
Ok, so I, too, believe that our spirits/souls/higher selves choose to incarnate. I think we do this repeatedly, and before each lifetime we chose our "lesson plan" for this incarnation.

So?

Sometimes the lesson is, "wow, I really fucked that up and need a do-over." Sometimes the lesson is, "Pain sucks." Sometimes it's "Compassion = Love = Divine".

Now, I don't believe in a Creator who micromanages our lives or chooses our lessons for us (I believe we're all part of that Creator, or Divine), so maybe that's where we part theologies. I believe that if I chose to be born, that's even more reason why I should be able to choose when to die. I wrote the lesson plan, I choose when to take the final and register for the next class.

Last edited by WhyNot; 07-01-2013 at 05:25 PM.
  #43  
Old 07-01-2013, 07:33 PM
lekatt lekatt is offline
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It should be, yes. Granted it does cause tons of pain and suffering for family and friends, and their suffering will be amplified after the person dies. But they aren't the ones who have to suffer the way the individual in question suffers. If a person has to suffer, they have a right to end the suffering. Either way, someone will be in pain and miserable.

For philosophical reasons, the connection between suicide and mental illness, and the harm suicide causes to those around the person who commits it suicide will likely never be seen as a right. But it should be.
You have no idea how selfish suicide really is and the pain it causes those left behind.
  #44  
Old 07-01-2013, 07:38 PM
lekatt lekatt is offline
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Ok, so I, too, believe that our spirits/souls/higher selves choose to incarnate. I think we do this repeatedly, and before each lifetime we chose our "lesson plan" for this incarnation.

So?

Sometimes the lesson is, "wow, I really fucked that up and need a do-over." Sometimes the lesson is, "Pain sucks." Sometimes it's "Compassion = Love = Divine".

Now, I don't believe in a Creator who micromanages our lives or chooses our lessons for us (I believe we're all part of that Creator, or Divine), so maybe that's where we part theologies. I believe that if I chose to be born, that's even more reason why I should be able to choose when to die. I wrote the lesson plan, I choose when to take the final and register for the next class.
You got it right, we choose to come into the physical and we choose to leave the physical after we have completed our lives and not before. It is not sometimes bad and sometimes good. We choose what it will be and if it is bad we know we are not making the right choices. Love, compassion is the goal.
  #45  
Old 07-01-2013, 07:44 PM
lekatt lekatt is offline
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See, here's the thing - you can't really know that. I think that it's great that you continue to enjoy life up into your old age (and I don't think its a stretch to call 75 'old age') - but how can you possibly know that you will continue to enjoy life as you do now 'until you pass'??? how can you possibly know that? You don't know that, you just make an educated guess, based on how you've done up til now and that's great...but, I'm sorry. You don't really 'know'.

any of a number of unforeseen things could happen to you between 75 and 'passing'. You could fall, or get in a car accident, or stand too close to a bomb on a city street, or get hit by a bus, or get a chronic debilitating disease, or have a stroke - well, I could go on but you get the idea. You can't predict all the possibilities. And you can't predict what effect any of those things might have on your love of life.

And, of all the possibilities, you also can't predict which might result in permanent pain and/or disability and/or mental incapacity. So, I'm sorry, but it seems to me to be very smug and complaisant to say something like 'I'll always enjoy life - 'cuz that's just the kind of person I am!'

Maybe you do have psychic abilities. Maybe you can predict the future for yourself. I wish I could...

But, otherwise - I'm sorry but I just can't let you get away with the whole 'I'm 75 and I feel great and I love life - so there's no excuse for the rest of you guys not to feel the same way!
You really don't have anything to do with how I feel and what my future will bring. That will be my choice not yours. I was miserable for almost 50 years until I found out how everything works. Now I can say I will live the rest of my life in love and feel great doing it and mean it.
  #46  
Old 07-02-2013, 09:00 AM
Tethered Kite Tethered Kite is offline
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We need millions like you, because you care and that is what matters.
Thanks, lekatt. I do care. Maybe you have learned how to have a powerful store of energy for caring. I haven't.

One thing I have learned is not to take on another person's grief. It's something no one else can work through but them.

Sometimes the best gift you can give a troubled person is allowing them to own their own pain. It's a good motivator. Better than holding hands and listening.

The two together should give a person a boost if there is consistency and hope.

Emotional pain is a gift. It's your body telling you that something needs to be changed. Yeah?
  #47  
Old 07-02-2013, 11:54 AM
lekatt lekatt is offline
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Thanks, lekatt. I do care. Maybe you have learned how to have a powerful store of energy for caring. I haven't.

One thing I have learned is not to take on another person's grief. It's something no one else can work through but them.

Sometimes the best gift you can give a troubled person is allowing them to own their own pain. It's a good motivator. Better than holding hands and listening.

The two together should give a person a boost if there is consistency and hope.

Emotional pain is a gift. It's your body telling you that something needs to be changed. Yeah?
Yes I agree. I can empathize and still not take on their pain. I lay out a program for them to follow and if they are willing to follow it I continue with them. I am always there when they wish to talk within reason. When you see a young person bound on wanting to kill themselves turn that energy into love and caring for others it is truly a thing of beauty, a miracle. It makes all the months of helping and caring worthwhile. Thanks for helping.
  #48  
Old 07-02-2013, 11:57 AM
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Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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Yes I agree. I can empathize and still not take on their pain. I lay out a program for them to follow and if they are willing to follow it I continue with them. I am always there when they wish to talk within reason. When you see a young person bound on wanting to kill themselves turn that energy into love and caring for others it is truly a thing of beauty, a miracle. It makes all the months of helping and caring worthwhile. Thanks for helping.
You still haven't explained why all these would-be suiciders come to you in particular for help. Are you a professional therapist that they seek out or are referred to?
  #49  
Old 07-02-2013, 01:53 PM
lekatt lekatt is offline
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You still haven't explained why all these would-be suiciders come to you in particular for help. Are you a professional therapist that they seek out or are referred to?
Just lucky I guess.
  #50  
Old 07-02-2013, 01:56 PM
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Just lucky I guess.
How about a real answer? What causes them to seek you out? Are you a therapist?
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