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Old 08-04-2019, 07:28 AM
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Dem in debate dissing Obama?


Neither my Wife or I saw the second debate, but my Wife says she's seen clips of some (don't know who) of the candidates dissing Obama. Sorry, I don't have time right now to watch the debate, but is this true?
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Old 08-04-2019, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by enipla View Post
Neither my Wife or I saw the second debate, but my Wife says she's seen clips of some (don't know who) of the candidates dissing Obama. Sorry, I don't have time right now to watch the debate, but is this true?
Here's an example of criticism against Obama policies:
Biden surprised by 'criticism' of Obama.

I don't think he's surprised at all, I think his campaign strategy is pretending these policies weren't criticised at the time and aren't a valid target now. He could defend them on their merits, but that would be repeating republican talking points and diminishing his strategy of attacking Trump.
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Old 08-04-2019, 02:52 PM
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The dissing is just a way of attacking Uncle Joe.
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Old 08-04-2019, 03:40 PM
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Dissing Obama is nature's way of showing which Dems are lowlifes. I'll still vote for them over Chump but holding my nose while doing so.
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Old 08-04-2019, 04:46 PM
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It's not just because the former Vice President of the United States is leading the pack.

Two of the candidates running behind him were critical of the Obama-Biden Administration as it happened. Bernie Sanders spoke about how it wouldn't be a bad thing for somebody from Obama's left to primary him in 2012 because it would precipitate a discussion about who the administration is catering for. Then in 2016 he ran against Obama's anointed successor on a message that was critical of a system pre-dating but also including Obama's presidency.

And Warren who worked for the Administration for a period was very critical of TPP leading to a rebuttal from Obama himself.

Pres. Obama: Elizabeth Warren 'wrong' about TPP deal

https://www.msnbc.com/hardball/watch...l-431711811768

Elizabeth Warren on Obama's trade deal: "He won't put the facts out there"

https://www.vox.com/2015/4/23/848285...ama-tpp-secret

Obama Rips Warren on Trade Deal: "Elizabeth's A Politician Like Everybody Else"

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...body_else.html

The other candidates want to occupy the more progressive lane of the party which it has been headed into without calling out Obama since if they become the nominee they will need him to endorse and campaign for them as the most popular democrat around. Therefore they take it out on Biden who despite being very popular also among democrats...is now a challenger. An opponent. Many of these guys asked Biden to help them win earlier races. And they will use him in 2020 if they get the nomination. But for now they want to beat him.
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Old 08-06-2019, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by naita View Post
Here's an example of criticism against Obama policies:
Biden surprised by 'criticism' of Obama.
Criticism is a long way from dissing. IMHO, Obama's the best President of my lifetime, but he still did a lot of things wrong, and it's fair to point out specific instances of that.

We're not like Republicans, where the first time you speak ill of Trump, they want to expel you from the party. We get to criticize our Presidents, and per Boycott's cites, some of the Dems running were already doing that while Obama was still President. Nothing wrong with that.
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Old 08-06-2019, 06:56 PM
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I agree that he was the best President of my lifetime, but really, look what the voters went and did after seeing eight years of him. FDR he ain't.
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Old 08-06-2019, 07:04 PM
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Neither my Wife or I saw the second debate, but my Wife says she's seen clips of some (don't know who) of the candidates dissing Obama. Sorry, I don't have time right now to watch the debate, but is this true?
Come on, everyone knows they weren't really dissing Obama, but they were dissing policies of his that were easier to diss. They do this with all presidents. Both parties eat their own. The last time I recall a party revering a past candidate to the extent they dare not speak ill of him was the 1996 election in which no Republican dared speak ill of a dying Ronald Reagan. Not since then. Even in 2000, you had Bill Bradley trashing Bubba Clinton, and Donald Trump ripped George W Bush to shreds in ways even Democrats wouldn't.
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Old 08-06-2019, 08:05 PM
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Come on, everyone knows they weren't really dissing Obama, but they were dissing policies of his that were easier to diss. They do this with all presidents. Both parties eat their own. The last time I recall a party revering a past candidate to the extent they dare not speak ill of him was the 1996 election in which no Republican dared speak ill of a dying Ronald Reagan. Not since then. Even in 2000, you had Bill Bradley trashing Bubba Clinton, and Donald Trump ripped George W Bush to shreds in ways even Democrats wouldn't.
Tell me about the times McCain and Romney criticized GW Bush while running for President in 2008 and 2012. Or Dole or GW Bush's criticisms of GHW Bush in 1996 and 2000, respectively.

'Both parties eat their own' is bullshit. I remember how in 2007, at a point when Dubya had lost Congress to the Dems, had approval ratings in the toilet due to Iraq and Katrina, and was obviously a total failure in a bunch of different ways, almost no Republican would criticize or oppose him on anything. It was striking. Even in widespread disgrace, he was their boy and they rallied around him.
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Old 08-07-2019, 07:20 AM
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Tell me about the times McCain and Romney criticized GW Bush while running for President in 2008 and 2012. Or Dole or GW Bush's criticisms of GHW Bush in 1996 and 2000, respectively.

'Both parties eat their own' is bullshit. I remember how in 2007, at a point when Dubya had lost Congress to the Dems, had approval ratings in the toilet due to Iraq and Katrina, and was obviously a total failure in a bunch of different ways, almost no Republican would criticize or oppose him on anything. It was striking. Even in widespread disgrace, he was their boy and they rallied around him.
Yah yah yah! Look, all candidates try to "distance" themselves from incumbents. McCain tried to "distance" himself from Bush, and Gore tried to "distance" himself from Clinton. The Democrats didn't trash Obama; they just "distanced" themselves from policies they thought won't work well in 2020. There's nothing shocking about that at all. I think people need to get a grip. It's early in the race - plenty of time to come around and embrace the president. I seriously doubt Obama himself is nearly as offended as some of his aides and campaign wonks.
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Old 08-07-2019, 08:38 AM
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Yah yah yah! Look, all candidates try to "distance" themselves from incumbents. McCain tried to "distance" himself from Bush, and Gore tried to "distance" himself from Clinton. The Democrats didn't trash Obama; they just "distanced" themselves from policies they thought won't work well in 2020. There's nothing shocking about that at all. I think people need to get a grip. It's early in the race - plenty of time to come around and embrace the president. I seriously doubt Obama himself is nearly as offended as some of his aides and campaign wonks.
This makes sense. Thanks for the responses everyone.
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Old 08-07-2019, 09:33 AM
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Yah yah yah! Look, all candidates try to "distance" themselves from incumbents. McCain tried to "distance" himself from Bush
Oh really? How??

He basically spent from mid-2004 on wrapping himself around Bush.
Quote:
There's nothing shocking about that at all. I think people need to get a grip. It's early in the race - plenty of time to come around and embrace the president. I seriously doubt Obama himself is nearly as offended as some of his aides and campaign wonks.
I'm not saying anything about that. I'm just pointing out that Democrats are several orders of magnitude more free to criticize their present and former leaders than Republicans are. I'm disagreeing with your suggestion that there's little difference between the two parties in that respect.

Last edited by RTFirefly; 08-07-2019 at 09:34 AM.
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Old 08-07-2019, 10:14 AM
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Oh really? How??

He basically spent from mid-2004 on wrapping himself around Bush.
I think you mean mid-2008 (Bush was running for reelection in 2004), but I take your point. And I'd point out that he started distancing himself from Bush when the economy began to falter. He basically spent the last 3 months of his campaign complaining about Obama's attempt to brand his campaign as Bush's third term.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
I'm not saying anything about that. I'm just pointing out that Democrats are several orders of magnitude more free to criticize their present and former leaders than Republicans are. I'm disagreeing with your suggestion that there's little difference between the two parties in that respect.
If you go back to 2016, it's clear that not only was Trump free to criticize Bush's legacy, he basically lit it on fire, poured lighter fluid on it, and watched it burn with a smile on his face -- and he won. And Democrats are in no way shape or form dumb enough to do that with Obama's legacy, because it's a good legacy.

But it's no problem at all to pick apart specific things they didn't agree with about his time in office, and it's really the only way that other candidates can attack Biden, so this was to be expected. Even so, it's still quite early in the race, and this will probably be a non-story later in the year. The bigger story will be whether voters seek a return to Obama's incrementalism or whether they vote for a candidate who promises to push for bolder reforms. The attacks will be sharper and aimed more at Biden's senate votes and his speaking gaffes on the campaign trail, of which there will be many, I'm sure.
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Old 08-07-2019, 12:01 PM
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Criticism of O's policies seems pretty natural for a healthy party open to serious discussions. In a two party system, each party has to form a winning coalition from a lot of different elements; debate of the issues is always gonna happen.

I doubt, however, that any Dem ever questions Obama's fitness for command. And I also think he may just be horrified enough by his successor to weigh in on the campaign next summer -- and the man remains enormously popular. He'll have clout and may be instrumental in tossing the orange menace out.
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Old 08-07-2019, 12:10 PM
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I think you mean mid-2008 (Bush was running for reelection in 2004), but I take your point.
No, I mean mid-2004. That's when McCain turned down Kerry's VP offer, decided he was all in as a traditional Republican, and abandoned his maverick ways.

Quote:
If you go back to 2016, it's clear that not only was Trump free to criticize Bush's legacy, he basically lit it on fire, poured lighter fluid on it, and watched it burn with a smile on his face -- and he won.
It should be obvious that Trump is sui generis, that your standard-issue Republican can't get away with the stuff Trump says and does.

The other Republicans all have to follow the rules; Trump's the guy who tears up the rulebook and makes everyone else follow his rulebook.
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Old 08-07-2019, 12:11 PM
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And I'd point out that he started distancing himself from Bush when the economy began to falter. He basically spent the last 3 months of his campaign complaining about Obama's attempt to brand his campaign as Bush's third term.
'Distancing' without actual criticism.
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Old 08-07-2019, 12:15 PM
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Ok.
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