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  #501  
Old 06-11-2018, 08:49 PM
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Think of the okra! And the probable okra tariff hike to 350%! This will ruin our trade war!
  #502  
Old 06-11-2018, 08:58 PM
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Reversing a question without answering it? You can reply later.

1 ) North Korea showing us something we don't know about their Nuclear Program. Details, amounts, locations, etc..

2 ) Allowing USA inspections, whenever we want them and where ever we want them.

3 ) North Korea loosening up their security around the demilitarized zone, and South Korea doing the same.

4 ) Eyewitness the destruction of their nuclear weapons and change their plants for power and electricity if possible

In return, the USA could:

1 ) Offer North Korea protection.

2 ) Losen up sanctions.

3 ) Open up the possibility of trade. With a lot of cheap labor and South Korea's know-how, North Korea can export goods to the USA.

Kim Jon-Un's eyes probably were opened during the Olympics. He saw South Korea's progress and looks at his barren land. He likely knows that victory for North Korea on the world stage cannot be achieved by the strength of arms, rather by giving up what they have that is dangerous, which perhaps was his plan all along. Either way, I say take that deal.
Kim's eyes didn't need to be opened by an Olympics, it's not as if he was secluded away in isolation his entire life in North Korea.. he attended a Swiss boarding school for fuck's sake. He's been at the tip-top of the elites from day one, he's always been aware of the real status of his country relative to others, it just doesn't concern him as long as he stays king of shit mountain. That's what victory is for him, it's not nuking the USA or South Korea or Japan, bellicose rhetoric to that end is purely a means to an end.. his regime remaining firmly in power. He's achieved more in the past year to cement his status among his people, especially the military elites, than he could possibly have hoped... all because Trump played into his hands. He's being met with as an equal, the US caved on its long standing policy of not rewarding bad behavior with splashy diplomatic initiatives and he has tons of footage of himself being treated with respect by other world leaders. He's going to keep his nukes. He might agree to some arbitrary but pointless limit (like 50, or whatever... ), signing some formal peace treaty and re-positioning his conventional forces slightly further from the DMZ. For those returns I don't consider what we've already given him worth it.
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  #503  
Old 06-11-2018, 09:02 PM
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I predict Kim will sign an agreement to do all these things, and Trump will declare the summit a triumphal success.

Then Kim won't do anything he agreed to. And Silver lining will wave his MAGA hat and mindlessly chant "Four more years!"
I think both sides will declare the summit to be an unprecedented success, but there will be absolutely no consensus as to what, if anything, was accomplished. There will be absolutely no agreement as to what was agreed upon.

And you know that this will be covered by North Korean state TV. And when it is, it will be about how the US President came to bow down and grovel before their Mighty Great Glorious Leader.

And this will leak back to the media and Trump will throw a tantrum and start threatening Kim again
  #504  
Old 06-11-2018, 09:31 PM
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You really have no clue. ...

Until then who cares if Iran says they are going to reduce their centrifuges. Why not stop spinning them? That would be a step toward a deal.

Obama was such a fool.
You’re throwing around insults about other people, but the sentence in the middle of your insult sandwich contains an error that would not be made by someone who knows something about the JCPOA (“the deal” as you may know it).

In 2015, Iran had over 20,000 centrifuges. “The deal” limited them to 1,000 for various scientific activities, with the restriction that they cannot be used for highly enriched uranium.

Independent inspectors have verified that Iran is holding to both those commitments, including putting the prohibited centrifuges in a verifiable state of non-use. https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/focu...-of-key-events

If you’re so busy calling others so ignorant, how are you so unaware of a fact like this?
  #505  
Old 06-11-2018, 09:33 PM
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A minor point, perhaps, but apparently President Trump kept his 'pull-em-in-towards me' handshake in his pocket and made what looked to be fairly normal handshakes with Kim. I was worried (and while it sounds odd, with this President you worry about things like this) is that he would Yank Kim off balance so he fell, Kim's security guards would rush in, our Secret Service would rush in, and...

Fortunately that didn't happen...but there are more handshakes to go.
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  #506  
Old 06-11-2018, 11:16 PM
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I think Trump waddled more assertively that Kim did.
  #507  
Old 06-12-2018, 12:59 AM
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What the hell did they just sign?
  #508  
Old 06-12-2018, 01:20 AM
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Trump just cemented his 2nd term. No way he loses now.
  #509  
Old 06-12-2018, 02:03 AM
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Trump just cemented his 2nd term. No way he loses now.
He signed an unspecified "comprehensive" document. Trump says it's merely a document saying they will continue negotiating, meaning it did basically nothing. It's a PR stunt, not anything of substance.

But even if he does eventually sign something, there's no reason to jump to defeat that quickly. We all knew going in that Trump may be tricked into signing something. That's one of the things we were worried about--what would doofus Trump sign us up for?

And, even if it somehow is a good deal, it's not like that means much of anything. The Iran deal was a very good deal for everyone, that people had been trying to get for decades, but there was no problem making it seem like a really bad deal.

Being defeatist is never a good thing. Sure, acknowledge the PR-stunt's effectiveness, but don't worry that all is lost. Evil only wins when good has lost all hope.
  #510  
Old 06-12-2018, 02:43 AM
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He signed an unspecified "comprehensive" document. Trump says it's merely a document saying they will continue negotiating, meaning it did basically nothing. It's a PR stunt, not anything of substance.
Which is still more than Obama or any other democrat has done.
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  #511  
Old 06-12-2018, 03:09 AM
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Which is still more than Obama or any other democrat has done.
Who got more out of this stunt, America or North Korea?
  #512  
Old 06-12-2018, 03:21 AM
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North Korea got some real concessions, but realistically, that was going to have to happen at some point as we moved from nonproliferation to deterrence (a change much of the foreign policy establishment has resisted making at all), and if doing a big shiny TV summit distracts Trump for a while and gets him to stop listening to the John Boltons, this is probably the least worst path possible.

This is pretty much my view on this whole charade:

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We should all pray that Tuesday is the beginning of long, drawn-out negotiations — whether extremely successful or empty and fruitless — since as long as discussions continue in any form, it will be exceedingly difficult for Trump to mobilize the necessary support for war. Should we open 37 McDonald’s locations in Pyongyang? Invite Kim Jong Un to the Mar-a-Lago Christmas party? Ask him to host “Saturday Night Live”? Sure, why not. All that truly matters is that the world just holds on until the United States has another president.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 06-12-2018 at 03:26 AM.
  #513  
Old 06-12-2018, 03:35 AM
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I agree, anything that ties Bolton's hands is good, but we should be under no illusion that Kim's production of nuclear weapons and technology has abated in the slightest. We are certainly no safer than we were at the end of the Obama administration.
  #514  
Old 06-12-2018, 04:24 AM
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What the hell did they just sign?
Text of the document.
  #515  
Old 06-12-2018, 04:56 AM
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Trump unilaterally abandons joint training exercises with South Korea, without any concessions from North Korea:
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Importantly, the U.S. leader did reveal that his country will be stopping the war games it conducts near North Korea.

That, he said, "will save us a tremendous amount of money — unless and until we see that the future negotiation is not going along like it should ... Plus I think it's very provocative."

He strongly implied that South Korea doesn't pay enough for those exercises: "That's certainly a subject that we have to talk to them about."
  #516  
Old 06-12-2018, 05:03 AM
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Which is still more than Obama or any other democrat has done.
Quite right - neither Obama nor the Democrats, nor indeed either Bush nor Clinton, have done anything quite this stupid with regard to the Koreas. Kim gets the legitimization and the seat at the table he and his family have always wanted, South Korea gets the rug pulled out from under them, and America gets...well, nothing so far apart from empty promises. Art of the Deal, baby!
  #517  
Old 06-12-2018, 05:10 AM
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The TLR version: Kim saw the Dotard coming a mile away and cleaned him out.
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  #518  
Old 06-12-2018, 05:22 AM
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I think both sides will declare the summit to be an unprecedented success, but there will be absolutely no consensus as to what, if anything, was accomplished. There will be absolutely no agreement as to what was agreed upon.

And you know that this will be covered by North Korean state TV. And when it is, it will be about how the US President came to bow down and grovel before their Mighty Great Glorious Leader.

And this will leak back to the media and Trump will throw a tantrum and start threatening Kim again
Realistically, I don't think either side expected anything concrete from this single meeting. Think of it like dating: This was more like the first coffee date at Starbucks - where it leads, whether it leads to something else...who knows?
  #519  
Old 06-12-2018, 05:27 AM
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Quite right - neither Obama nor the Democrats, nor indeed either Bush nor Clinton, have done anything quite this stupid with regard to the Koreas. Kim gets the legitimization and the seat at the table he and his family have always wanted, South Korea gets the rug pulled out from under them, and America gets...well, nothing so far apart from empty promises. Art of the Deal, baby!
It might be stupid, or it might also be brilliant, or it might be something in between. It's entirely possible that Trump, the president himself, can live with Kim retaining some of the weapons he already has for self-defense purposes. Maybe Trump personally doesn't care about keeping troops in the Pacific. He does strike me as being a genuine isolationist. Now how John Bolton and how his military feel about that is another matter. But it's the president's word that counts most. He just doesn't want to look stupid. So if Trump agrees to end sanctions in exchange for a freeze of his weapons program and inspections, then he doesn't want Kim playing games.

I guess my point is, we already know that Trump's presidency is going to turn American foreign policy - and the foreign policy of everyone else - on its head. Conventional assumptions about how countries approach foreign policy are no longer operative. Whether that works to our benefit - and I tend to think it will not, for the record - is a different question.
  #520  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:27 AM
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Trump just cemented his 2nd term. No way he loses now.
Didn't you also say this after Trump brushed his own teeth for the first time last week?
  #521  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:45 AM
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It might be stupid, or it might also be brilliant, or it might be something in between.
Some of the stupid has been pointed out in this thread and others, so would you mind pointing out the part of the agreement that might be considered "brilliant"? This "standing things on their head" nonsense that is being pushed heavily is absolute nonsense, btw. It makes it sound like it might be a planned strategy, when in truth it is just the same old Trump routine of making a name for himself regardless of cost to the rest of the world.
  #522  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:48 AM
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If ever there was going to be progress it was going to take the US screwing over South Korea.
He's probably tallying up how big an invoice he'll present to Moon Jae-in for the reunification costs and a little commission on the side for the broker.

If it comes up roses then lets all form a circle and sing Kumbaya. Reluctantly I'd concede that the ends justifies the means.

Conversely, if he's prepared to launch a trade war with Canada over milk, heaven help us all if he thinks Kim has welshed on his deal.
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  #523  
Old 06-12-2018, 07:12 AM
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Some of the stupid has been pointed out in this thread and others, so would you mind pointing out the part of the agreement that might be considered "brilliant"? This "standing things on their head" nonsense that is being pushed heavily is absolute nonsense, btw. It makes it sound like it might be a planned strategy, when in truth it is just the same old Trump routine of making a name for himself regardless of cost to the rest of the world.
Just to be clear, I'm as skeptical as most people that this works out as Trump has planned. But I will say that there's a chance of an agreement if they can resolve the issue of sanctions. If there's a mutually satisfactory resolution on how sanctions on North Korea end within the next 6 months, then the chances of success for Trump go way up. But Trump is probably going to have to do more than just agree to stop war games with South Korea to get Kim to seriously consider disarming himself. Kim wants sanctions to stop now before he agrees to anything, and whatever he agrees to will most likely be more along the lines of freezing his program rather than eliminating it.

By standing things on their head, I mean that the world is now dealing with an isolationist president who no longer believes that the U.S. has any global commitments. Any analysis has to take this into consideration. Throwing South Korea under the bus seems like a violation of long-standing protocol and an a gaffe, but it's not a bug of this administration; it's a feature, and it could be a harbinger of American foreign policy in the next 2-8 years, if not longer.

Last edited by asahi; 06-12-2018 at 07:15 AM.
  #524  
Old 06-12-2018, 08:02 AM
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Kim gets the legitimization and the seat at the table he and his family have always wanted, South Korea gets the rug pulled out from under them, and America gets...well, nothing so far apart from empty promises.
Excellent summary. To put it in numerical terms, I'd score it +2 for NK, -1 for SK, and 0 for the USA: "Kim gets the legitimization and the seat at the table" (+1 for NK), " South Korea gets the rug pulled out from under them" (Trump just handed Kim a cessation of US-South Korea joint military exercises for the time being, +1 for NK, -1 for SK), and nothing for us.
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Art of the Deal, baby!
The weird thing is, to the extent that Trump's succeeded in business, it's been by getting the better of deals (or simply screwing people over) by either dealing with people who needed him a lot more than he needed them, or making the people on the other side of the deal believe that was the case.

So here's the first time Trump's dealing with a country that really DOES need the U.S. a lot more than the U.S. needs it, and damned if he doesn't screw the whole thing up.

Of course, that's probably looking at it from the wrong perspective. When Trump negotiates, it's not about the U.S.A., it's about Trump. And he needed something badly that he could call a win, especially after the G6+1. Kim didn't. So of course he got screwed.
  #525  
Old 06-12-2018, 08:07 AM
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A couple of WTF moments from Trumps press conference:

He was babbling about how he was reading and “scientifically, denuclearization takes a very very long time and that is scientific fact”. Or something like that. It almost sounds to me like he was talking in some very confused way about the half-life of radioactive materials. Which has absolutely nothing to do with the issues at hand. Can he even be this this stupid? Cause I really don’t know what else he could be talking about. Was it just a stealth brag about him being able to read?

He brought up Otto Warmbier and held up the summit as some sort of proof that Otto didn’t die in vain. I don’t get the connection. Did Trump view the battered corpse of Kim”s most newsworthy victim and think.....what a strong leader, I want to sit down and chat with the guy did this? Should Trudeau beat some innocent to death in order to earn Trump’s respect? Does Trump even know what “die in vain” even means? And he talked a bunch about what great friends he was with Warmbier’s parents. Which leads me to wonder what they think about this.

This is what happens when I don’t turn off the TV right away when he starts blathering. Now my head hurts,

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 06-12-2018 at 08:08 AM.
  #526  
Old 06-12-2018, 08:59 AM
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Can he even be this this stupid?
Yes. This question with respect to Trump and his supporters is always yes.
  #527  
Old 06-12-2018, 09:20 AM
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Watching Trump conduct diplomacy is like watching those old SNL routines where they'd let Toonces the cat drive the car.

The difference is that Toonces wasn't real, there was no driving cat, it was all just a SNL comedy sketch.

Thank you, GOP, for refusing to take the keys away from Trump.
  #528  
Old 06-12-2018, 10:22 AM
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It might be stupid, or it might also be brilliant, or it might be something in between. It's entirely possible that Trump, the president himself, can live with Kim retaining some of the weapons he already has for self-defense purposes. Maybe Trump personally doesn't care about keeping troops in the Pacific. He does strike me as being a genuine isolationist. Now how John Bolton and how his military feel about that is another matter. But it's the president's word that counts most. He just doesn't want to look stupid. So if Trump agrees to end sanctions in exchange for a freeze of his weapons program and inspections, then he doesn't want Kim playing games.
So basically, if he manages to negotiate a deal that is considerably less rigorous than the one he ripped up with Iran because he thought it wasn't strong enough, he'll consider it a major victory. Yes, that makes sense, or at least as much sense as anything this administration says or does does.
  #529  
Old 06-12-2018, 10:58 AM
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Excellent summary. To put it in numerical terms, I'd score it +2 for NK, -1 for SK, and 0 for the USA: "Kim gets the legitimization and the seat at the table" (+1 for NK), " South Korea gets the rug pulled out from under them" (Trump just handed Kim a cessation of US-South Korea joint military exercises for the time being, +1 for NK, -1 for SK), and nothing for us.
In Trump's defense, he is an inveterate liar who frequently reneges on promises, so the war games thing isn't a lock.
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Old 06-12-2018, 11:20 AM
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I couldn't completely dismiss that South Korea may have already primed Trump to make that offer. I mean, who knows what Trump and Moon have discussed privately?

Talking is great, I'm not going to badmouth the talks at all... but so far the Iran deal is a much better one than what we have seen so far. I think this summit was probably conceived of being 90% optics, 10% substance.
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Old 06-12-2018, 11:27 AM
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Excellent summary. To put it in numerical terms, I'd score it +2 for NK, -1 for SK, and 0 for the USA: "Kim gets the legitimization and the seat at the table" (+1 for NK), " South Korea gets the rug pulled out from under them" (Trump just handed Kim a cessation of US-South Korea joint military exercises for the time being, +1 for NK, -1 for SK), and nothing for us.
The weird thing is, to the extent that Trump's succeeded in business, it's been by getting the better of deals (or simply screwing people over) by either dealing with people who needed him a lot more than he needed them, or making the people on the other side of the deal believe that was the case.

So here's the first time Trump's dealing with a country that really DOES need the U.S. a lot more than the U.S. needs it, and damned if he doesn't screw the whole thing up.

Of course, that's probably looking at it from the wrong perspective. When Trump negotiates, it's not about the U.S.A., it's about Trump. And he needed something badly that he could call a win, especially after the G6+1. Kim didn't. So of course he got screwed.

First, to reiterate a couple of my past predictions in this thread which I think weren't too far from what we're seeing now, and will probably get even closer to what we'll ultimately see:


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Here's the thing, NK will not denuclearize anytime soon. Everybody that knows anything knows that. Trump needs a win on a pretty tight time frame and the biggest component of any such possible "win" is actually pretty obvious. He's going to "throw SK under the bus" by forcing them to pay and/or provide for their own defense, with some U.S. troops stationed there coming home immediately upon the announcement for show. It's something he and KJU both already want and can call a win. Throw something in about nuclear tests and missile ranges. Done deal.

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When you step back and look at the very basic macro view of the whole thing, I think it's clear that now that NK has a minimally credible nuclear capability, they are now pursuing the best way to capitalize on it. It's not a coincidence that semi-serious reunification talk pops up as soon as NK nuke-triculated, as if the two things were somehow complimentary. Reunification and denuclearization will be the dangling carrots on infinitely long sticks that NK uses to extort untold concessions from SK. NK doesn't actually need any concessions or sanctions relief from the US if the SK tap is flowing and they have all sorts of cooperative projects to very, very, very slowly "refamiliarize" the Korean people.
Canceling the exercises (without even mentioning it to SK) is just the first step. KJU and Trump have now gotten together and basically agreed on the approach that it will be SK giving all the concessions that Trump and Kim agree to.

It makes me think that the whole G6(+1) thing could have been an intentional display for SK to realize that if Trump can treat the US's closest allies and neighbor so poorly, they had better not take anything for granted and would be best served by taking whatever deal Trump deigned to saddle them with.

Meanwhile, even in the improbable event that NK were to completely denuclearize, that STILL DOES NOT make SK a whole lot safer from NK's vast conventional weapons. Stop doing those exercises together, stop selling certain hardware platforms, start pulling troops away from the DMZ, and slowly but surely and continuously, NK can squeeze SK for more and more concessions.
  #532  
Old 06-12-2018, 12:13 PM
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Another reason for the intelligence community to love Trump.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald J. Trump to Kim Jong Un
I said do me a favor. You have this missile engine testing site. We know where it is because of the heat. It is incredible the equipment we have to be honest with you. I said can you close it up. He’s going to close it up.
From full transcript of press conference.
  #533  
Old 06-12-2018, 12:38 PM
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Which is still more than Obama or any other democrat has done.
Not true. A few excerpts from this web slite:

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July 19, 1993: After a second round of talks with the United States, North Korea announces in a joint statement that it is “prepared to begin consultations with the IAEA on outstanding safeguards and other issues” and that it is ready to negotiate IAEA inspections of its nuclear facilities.

June 15, 1994: Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter negotiates a deal with North Korea in which Pyongyang confirms its willingness to “freeze” its nuclear weapons program and resume high-level talks with the United States. Bilateral talks are expected to begin, provided that North Korea allows the IAEA safeguards to remain in place, does not refuel its 5-megawatt nuclear reactor, and does not reprocess any spent nuclear fuel.

October 21, 1994: The United States and North Korea conclude four months of negotiations by adopting the “Agreed Framework” in Geneva.

April 21-22, 1996: The United States and North Korea meet in Berlin for their first round of bilateral missile talks.

June 11-13, 1997: The second round of U.S.-North Korean missile talks takes place in New York, with U.S. negotiators pressing North Korea not to deploy the Nodong missile and to end sales of Scud missiles and their components. The parties reach no agreement but reportedly lay the foundation for future talks.

October 12, 2000: The United States and North Korea issue a joint statement noting that resolution of the missile issue would “make an essential contribution to fundamentally improved relations” and reiterating the two countries’ commitment to implementation of the Agreed Framework. The statement also says that Albright will visit North Korea in the near future to prepare for a possible visit by President Clinton.
Basically, promising to move towards peace & disarmament is routine practice for North Korea.

Last edited by scr4; 06-12-2018 at 12:39 PM.
  #534  
Old 06-12-2018, 01:06 PM
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Japan and South Korea need to seriously rethink the whole US Alliance now. Hope Japan ditches Article 9 and goes full military.
  #535  
Old 06-12-2018, 01:44 PM
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So if Trump agrees to end sanctions in exchange for a freeze of his weapons program and inspections, then he doesn't want Kim playing games.
Yeah, North Korea's not gonna buy that shit after he pulled out of the JCPOA.
  #536  
Old 06-12-2018, 01:52 PM
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Japan and South Korea need to seriously rethink the whole US Alliance now. Hope Japan ditches Article 9 and goes full military.
You don't really mean this do you?
  #537  
Old 06-12-2018, 02:04 PM
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You don't really mean this do you?
Didn't Trump make some comment a while back about how he was elected to put America first, and other countries elected leaders to put their own country first? It seems like Velocity is just suggesting that Japan would be acting consistent with the Trump Doctrine of "everyone for themselves, fuck everyone else" if they rebuilt their military.

Of course, people may disagree with the Trump Doctrine of everyone should just be self-absorbed assholes and just give everyone else the finger as a matter of policy.
  #538  
Old 06-12-2018, 02:32 PM
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Didn't Trump make some comment a while back about how he was elected to put America first, and other countries elected leaders to put their own country first? It seems like Velocity is just suggesting that Japan would be acting consistent with the Trump Doctrine of "everyone for themselves, fuck everyone else" if they rebuilt their military.

Of course, people may disagree with the Trump Doctrine of everyone should just be self-absorbed assholes and just give everyone else the finger as a matter of policy.
Exactly. At this point, *I* don't trust Trump and his enablers to do the right thing by Japan and SK, and it's not much skin (directly) off my nose. It would be absolute madness if *they* trust him more with their own security.


And remember, Japan was Trump's original boogieman before China emerged. The way that guy carries a grudge, it wouldn't surprise me if he delights in ultimately giving them the shaft.
  #539  
Old 06-12-2018, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
...Hope Japan ditches Article 9 and goes full military.
I dunno, they might remember that "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" stuff.
  #540  
Old 06-12-2018, 02:40 PM
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I dunno, they might remember that "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" stuff.

About as likely as the Fourth Reich rising up, yet the current complaint is that Germany doesn't spend enough on it's military.

Last edited by voltaire; 06-12-2018 at 02:41 PM.
  #541  
Old 06-12-2018, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
...It seems like Velocity is just suggesting that Japan would be acting consistent with the Trump Doctrine of "everyone for themselves, fuck everyone else" if they rebuilt their military.

Of course, people may disagree with the Trump Doctrine of everyone should just be self-absorbed assholes and just give everyone else the finger as a matter of policy.
I have a conservative Japanese uncle who does adhere to this view. He was rooting for Trump because Trump said he'd stop spending so much money defending other countries. To Japanese conservatives, that's a good thing, because that would force Japan to build up a proper military of its own.
  #542  
Old 06-12-2018, 03:30 PM
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Joe Biden calls out Trump on NK:
Quote:
Biden says in a statement released Tuesday that Trump has given North Korea multiple “wins up front without getting anything in return.” He says those include an easing of pressure on Pyongyang, the suspension of U.S.-South Korean military exercises and the summit itself, which gave Kim legitimacy.

Biden says that in return, Trump got only “vague promises” to begin negotiations on North Korea’s nuclear program, reducing U.S. leverage.

Biden is accusing Trump of taking “an inexcusable and irresponsible approach” to the summit by not fully preparing for it, and he is urging the administration to focus on denuclearizing the Korean peninsula.
  #543  
Old 06-12-2018, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by scr4 View Post
I have a conservative Japanese uncle who does adhere to this view. He was rooting for Trump because Trump said he'd stop spending so much money defending other countries. To Japanese conservatives, that's a good thing, because that would force Japan to build up a proper military of its own.
That's something I can wrap my head around. I inferred something different from Velocity's statement.

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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
I'm not getting the whole "Legitimacy" thing. Kim is an evil fuck-stick, but he is a legitimate leader. With nukes I might add.


Treating him as if he weren't seems unproductive to me.
  #544  
Old 06-12-2018, 04:16 PM
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Another reason for the intelligence community to love Trump.



From full transcript of press conference.

To pull a quote where jet-lag must have caused a temporary bout of honesty:

Question>> "You said the last was an add-on and not in the agreement. He gave you his word. If he doesn’t follow through on these things, what are you prepared to do in response and will you lose faith in the process?"

TRUMP>> "No. I think he will do it. I really believe it. It was really the engine testing site in addition to all of the other things that they agreed to do. They have a powerful engine testing site. Again, we’re able to see because of the heat it emits. I’m able to — I’m very happy with those two points. The two points you mentioned. You may be referring to the thing not in. The engine testing site. I think he will do these things. I may be wrong. I may stand before you in six months and say, hey, I was wrong. I don’t know I’ll ever admit that. I’ll find some excuse."
  #545  
Old 06-12-2018, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Grrr! View Post
You don't really mean this do you?
I do mean it, 100%. Japan needs to be a totally normalized military nation like everyone else.


And if Obama had met with Kim and made the concessions Trump did last night, conservatives would be howling for his head.
  #546  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:16 PM
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And if Obama had met with Kim and made the concessions Trump did last night, conservatives would be howling for his head.
They were howling for his head at the mere mention of Obama being open to talking to North Korea, but when Trump said that's what he was going to do suddenly they were all cheering him on.
  #547  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:24 PM
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some people are very ticked off the US flag was next to the NK flag on the stage. I thought that was standard display for these kinds of meetings?
  #548  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by boytyperanma View Post
They were howling for his head at the mere mention of Obama being open to talking to North Korea, but when Trump said that's what he was going to do suddenly they were all cheering him on.
Video evidence compilation.
  #549  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
Japan and South Korea need to seriously rethink the whole US Alliance now. Hope Japan ditches Article 9 and goes full military.
On the one hand, Trumpian diplomacy with Kim seems to be sending the message that he does not give two fucks about what happens to South Korea and Japan.

On the other hand, if he wants to be the big tough guy American who stands up to a rising China, he has no choice but to give two fucks -- and probably a lot more than that. All along, this is precisely why China has tolerated North Korea. Just as Russia is trying to break the American-led hegemony in Western Europe, China has long dreamt of displacing the United States. If the US is seen as losing its value as a bodyguard, then that's exactly what happens. Japan and South Korea are left to ask: why are you here?

Last edited by asahi; 06-12-2018 at 06:34 PM.
  #550  
Old 06-12-2018, 07:23 PM
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Isn’t it naive to think that Kim would even want prosperity for his people? The minute they get the internet, and see how the rest of the world lives, is when his power is at risk. He would never want that unless his real motive is to break apart his whole system and allow a revolution. Not bloody likely. So what are he really negotiating for? Basically send me money so that I can solidify my power, and I won’t build more nukes (but I really will). My other thought is that he may actually give Trump some short term wins to help get Trump moving and confident. And once Trump starts telling everyone how great he is for finally establishing peace and almost-disarming NK, Kim will gouge him for $billions.
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