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  #51  
Old 03-07-2011, 10:10 PM
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And even more interesting that most Greeks are more Slavic than not. They just happen to speak a non-Slavic language.
Ignorant stupidity.
  #52  
Old 03-08-2011, 01:03 AM
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Ignorant stupidity.
Do not post personal insults in Great Debates.

Naxos, you have been admonished multiple times in the last few days to correct your behavior.
This is a Warning that you are out of line.
Stop it.

[ /Moderating ]

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  #53  
Old 03-08-2011, 05:48 AM
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For the same reason the United States of America did not call itself California.

As far as your reference to the world "kingdom", Greece (Ellada is the native name of the country) there were too many European kingdoms, mainly the German, the Russian and the British, that interfered with the politics of the area and each wanted to have a say to what will happen to this country after the native Greeks revolted against the 400 year occupation of the Turks.

Greece has many other areas with distinctive names but the main name that was used since ancient times was Ellada - Greece. Macedonia is one part of it.
Despite your hypothetical, nobody in America is trying to deny anyone else the use of the name California.

If you're saying the name Macedonia belongs to the Greeks, then the Greeks should have used it and named their country Macedonia. By choosing not to use it, they left it available for other people to use.

As for my reference to the word "Kingdom" - that's what the country called itself. Βασίλειον τῆς Ἑλλάδος - the Kingdom of Ellados. Greece was a Kingdom from 1832 to 1974 (with a republican break for nine years).
  #54  
Old 03-08-2011, 08:49 AM
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For the same reason the United States of America did not call itself California.
Doubtful, given that California wasn't part of the newly-founded country which chose the name "United States of America". The possibility didn't exist.
  #55  
Old 03-08-2011, 09:30 AM
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Nominee would have cared anyway, and there is still an important difference. FYR Macedonians have been using the term "Macedonian"'for a long time. The Greek position -- that they are trying to "steal" someone else's identity. You might as well accuse the Bulgarians and Romanians of that since their names originate in the names of other groups. There was even a significant period in which the Greeks called themselves "Rhomioi." The Greek position is irrational and petulant.
  #56  
Old 03-08-2011, 03:46 PM
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Ah… hello everyone, long time lurker here.
I was born in Greece and witnessed the insane way that Greece dealt with the “macedonian issue” in the early 90s. It was a time of huge demonstrations against Skopje (which is the way Greece liked to refer to FYROM/Macedonia at the time), “fear” that we would go to war with our northern neighbors (if you can imagine that…), and an amazingly homogeneous outlook towards the issue.
You have to understand that the modern Greek has been fed an amazing amount of propaganda through their schooling. I was fed all that as much as all average children growing up in Greece. Our books had anti-Turkish propaganda and produced an amazingly false picture of how Greece gained independence. For example… the role of the official church was entirely distorted to make it appear as a benefactor when it was not. Add on that the horrible Greek tendency of trying to walk forward while looking backwards. The Greek past for Greeks is EVERYTHING. We define ourselves by it, even though few have done any substantial reading about it.
The culture of argument with our perceived enemies is of grade school level. “Read a book”, “we taught you democracy” etc. Nationalists of all varieties that find everything emanating from Greece (one of my favorite modern Greek writers calls this the “Portokalos paradigm”, named after one of the main characters in that horrible movie “My big fat Greek wedding”) are quite popular. By the way, nationalism of this particular sort is found both in the left (and when I say left I mean members of the communist party, not some generic leftist) and right.
Antisemitism is everywhere. Even one of the brightest beacons of modern Greek history Mikis Theodorakis has become an antisemite of the worst kind.
Outsiders, and by that I mean the rest of the West (with which Greece never aligned entirely), are considered manipulators. For example consider a fake quote that was supposedly said by Kissinger in some kind of official meeting. This quote has been making the rounds for many years and is considered by many to be the final proof that the USA (and the Jews of course) are out to get us:
“The Greek people are anarchic and difficult to tame. For this reason we must strike deep into their cultural roots: Perhaps then we can force them to conform. I mean, of course, to strike at their language, their religion, their cultural and historical reserves, so that we can neutralize their ability to develop, to distinguish themselves, or to prevail; thereby removing them as an obstacle to our strategically vital plans in the Balkans, the Mediterranean, and the Middle East.”
This quote has been proven to be fake. The supposed primary source had no such quote. Finally, someone personally asked Kissinger if he had said such a thing. He denied it. Nevertheless this is still a popular quote and will probably be until the end of time.
This is the type of atmosphere that creates a person that will do anything possible to not allow Macedonians to name their country as they like to name it. It is amazing to me how much energy has been spent discussing this utterly ridiculous issue, how many otherwise respectable people has fallen in this trap, and how it simply wont go away.
My opinion is that they can call themselves whatever they like.
  #57  
Old 03-08-2011, 04:52 PM
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Thank you, (and welcome to the Dope), Anisos, for a rational Greek perspective.
  #58  
Old 03-08-2011, 07:01 PM
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Enlightening post, Anisos .



ETA : Too bad you didn't post in the threads about the Greek crisis.

Last edited by clairobscur; 03-08-2011 at 07:04 PM.
  #59  
Old 03-08-2011, 08:14 PM
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Thank you and welcome, Anisos

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Ah, nationalism... there's one idea that needs to go into the wastebin mondo pronto...
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I wouldn't say that. I consider myself a nationalist, in the sense that my identity is largely derived from the national group I belong to. I suppose that your Puerto Rican nationality also informs your identity as a person. But as any other ideology, it can lead people to do good things, and it can lead people to do bad things.
Ah, but you see, then we are using terms somewhat differently. To me, nationalism as the sociopolitical ideology, is distinct from awareness of historico-ethno-cultural identity (nationality), and I can have the latter while rejecting the former (Heck, I feel no particular urge for PR to be an independent sovereign nation-state, I'd support becoming a state of the US; and if we're ever independent I'd wish we would have jus soli citizenship and liberal naturalization, rather than insist on "blood" citizenship).

Last edited by JRDelirious; 03-08-2011 at 08:19 PM.
  #60  
Old 03-08-2011, 08:18 PM
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You have to understand that the modern Greek has been fed an amazing amount of propaganda through their schooling. I was fed all that as much as all average children growing up in Greece. Our books had anti-Turkish propaganda and produced an amazingly false picture of how Greece gained independence. For example… the role of the official church was entirely distorted to make it appear as a benefactor when it was not. Add on that the horrible Greek tendency of trying to walk forward while looking backwards. The Greek past for Greeks is EVERYTHING. We define ourselves by it, even though few have done any substantial reading about it.
It's not like Greece has any need to exaggerate. The Greeks have a proud history by any objective standard. So why begrudge anyone else?
  #61  
Old 03-08-2011, 09:01 PM
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It's not like Greece has any need to exaggerate. The Greeks have a proud history by any objective standard. So why begrudge anyone else?
You're probably referring to the very old history but Greece's recent history, say last 100 to 150 years, is a total mess. It starts really bad (Turkey), gets even worse (Germany, Italy, Bulgaria) and then ends up with a civil war where they were the first country West intervened to set it up as a front line in a Cold War. It's actually pretty screwed up history so one can perhaps understand some of the thinking behind Macedonia issue even though, in this time and age, it is totally not justified.
  #62  
Old 03-08-2011, 09:20 PM
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I was fed all that as much as all average children growing up in Greece. Our books had anti-Turkish propaganda . . .
Why? I mean, American schoolbooks are not full of anti-British propaganda.

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Antisemitism is everywhere.
Why? How many Jews are there in Greece today anyway?
  #63  
Old 03-08-2011, 10:25 PM
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It's not like Greece has any need to exaggerate. The Greeks have a proud history by any objective standard. So why begrudge anyone else?
Modern Greeks feel like they own that history. Alexander the Great is OURS, Macedonia is OURS. For you to want to name yourself Macedonian is removing my "pride". History is not objective business in Greece. I remember about ten years ago telling a much older woman (a doctor) about Washington DC government buildings. The first thing that she said was "Greek designs... all of it stolen"

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Why? I mean, American schoolbooks are not full of anti-British propaganda.

Why? How many Jews are there in Greece today anyway?
Well… I don’t think it is fair to compare America-England with Greece-Turkey.

To a degree, modern Greeks are a continuation of the East Roman empire which ceased to exist at 1453, taken over by the Turks, a very different situation from that of 18th century Americans. Also, the US is not close to England. Greece and Turkey have constant “confrontations” with jet-fighters and ships penetrating the borders, about a billion insignificant tiny little islands noone lives on that are being claimed by both sides, including one over which a war almost started in the mid-90s, the Cyprus separation issue (a deeply deeply traumatic story) among others. Having said that, relations with Turkey have significantly improved during the last 10 years.

There has been an effort to improve school books. In fact there was a recent school book that was utterly blasted (especially by the right) because it softened some corners. It was discontinued.

Thessalonica had a very substantial population of Jews before WWII. Mostly Sephardic Jews that arrived after their expulsion from Spain. The majority were sent to concentration camps.

What I do know is that Greeks intensely identify with Palestinians and that Israeli Jews are seen as a type of oppressive overlord. Beyond that, I cannot entirely explain why anti-Semitism is doing so well in Greece.

By the way. A big factor regarding the naming issue and other similar conflicts in North Greece is the fear that someone someday may find a legitimate way to change Greek borders, for example Macedonia encroaching into North Greece. Entirely irrational in my opinion.
  #64  
Old 03-08-2011, 10:59 PM
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Modern Greeks feel like they own that history. Alexander the Great is OURS, Macedonia is OURS. For you to want to name yourself Macedonian is removing my "pride". History is not objective business in Greece. I remember about ten years ago telling a much older woman (a doctor) about Washington DC government buildings. The first thing that she said was "Greek designs... all of it stolen"
Geez, you'd think people would be proud to see stuff built everywhere in the image of their culture. I mean, everywhere you look in this country there's a little Greek temple! CLEARLY we adore Greece and are demonstrating their obvious architectural superiority. Imitation really IS the sincerest form of flattery.
  #65  
Old 03-08-2011, 11:12 PM
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I remember about ten years ago telling a much older woman (a doctor) about Washington DC government buildings. The first thing that she said was "Greek designs... all of it stolen"
What an idiot! American Federal architecture was stolen from the Romans! (Where they got it, who knows . . .)
  #66  
Old 03-09-2011, 10:55 AM
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Why? I mean, American schoolbooks are not full of anti-British propaganda.
EVERYONE in the Balkans hates the Turks (except the Turks, naturally, who are, as far as I can tell, totally oblivious about this). Bulgarians refer to the Ottoman occupation as the "Tursko Robstvo", which is usually translated as "Turkish Yoke". It took me awhile to parse this phrase, but it literally means "Turkish Slavery." It is extremely common to hear people talk about "when we were the slaves of the Turks," that sort of thing.

My Bulgarian teacher told me she'd gone to Turkey for the first time, and I asked her how it was. Now, she wasn't some sheltered xenophobic villager; she had lived abroad and is a pretty cosmopolitan person.

Her: Everywhere we went, when we told them where we were from, they called us "neighbor! neighbor!"*
Me: Oh, do Turks like Bulgarians, then?
Her: Of course they do, they like to come here and steal our land and rape our women and make us slaves.
Me:

*The Bulgarian word for "neighbor" is borrowed from Turkish (along with about a zillion other words), so they would have understood this easily. And when I went to Turkey, I generally told people I was from Bulgaria so they would know I was not wealthy, and I got the same "neighbor! neighbor!" treatment.
  #67  
Old 03-09-2011, 12:38 PM
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Why? I mean, American schoolbooks are not full of anti-British propaganda.
That's more to do with the nature of propaganda in the US v. Europe than anything else.

Our schoolbooks are full of pro-American propaganda, like more or less everything taught about the War of 1812 (though less so today than 50 years past).

European propaganda tends to be more about rubbishing everyone else; ours is about talking up ourselves.
  #68  
Old 03-09-2011, 12:59 PM
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I was fed all that as much as all average children growing up in Greece. Our books had anti-Turkish propaganda . . .
Why? I mean, American schoolbooks are not full of anti-British propaganda.
This has got to be the weirdest question I've seen on the Dope in a while, and especially surprising coming from BrainGlutton.

Why do you think the US/British relationship is in any way comparable to the Greece/Turkey relationship?

Even if you look at the distant past, the relationship was different. But I think the main issue/differentiator is stuff that is going on in the present.

Does the UK routinely fly military jets into US air space against US's wishes? Do the UK and US have ongoing territorial disputes? Did the UK invade and occupy to this day a very close ally of the US?
  #69  
Old 03-09-2011, 01:06 PM
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Well, the UK is currently occupying much of Iraq, which is now technically a US ally.
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:09 PM
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European propaganda tends to be more about rubbishing everyone else; ours is about talking up ourselves.
Maybe what you say is true of US textbooks, but I think Americans are just as big on "rubbishing" everyone they are in conflict with. e.g. the Soviets when they were a threat, and the Arabs/Muslims they are in conflict with now.

Last edited by Polerius; 03-09-2011 at 01:10 PM.
  #71  
Old 03-09-2011, 01:14 PM
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What I do know is that Greeks intensely identify with Palestinians and that Israeli Jews are seen as a type of oppressive overlord. Beyond that, I cannot entirely explain why anti-Semitism is doing so well in Greece.
That's weird, you'd think for people still hating Turkey, identifying themselves with Muslims over Westerners in a conflict would sound strange. Anything to do with the Turkey-Israel axis? Or is it because the Palestinian conflict can not help but remind them of their own struggles against Turkey?

P.S: BTW, Brainglutton , you said "Why? How many Jews are there in Greece today anyway?", that's weird. I dont think there's a direct relation between antisemitism and having a large Jewish pop.
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:17 PM
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For example consider a fake quote that was supposedly said by Kissinger in some kind of official meeting. This quote has been making the rounds for many years and is considered by many to be the final proof that the USA (and the Jews of course) are out to get us:
“The Greek people are anarchic and difficult to tame. For this reason we must strike deep into their cultural roots: Perhaps then we can force them to conform. I mean, of course, to strike at their language, their religion, their cultural and historical reserves, so that we can neutralize their ability to develop, to distinguish themselves, or to prevail; thereby removing them as an obstacle to our strategically vital plans in the Balkans, the Mediterranean, and the Middle East.”
This quote has been proven to be fake. The supposed primary source had no such quote. Finally, someone personally asked Kissinger if he had said such a thing. He denied it. Nevertheless this is still a popular quote and will probably be until the end of time.
[Bolding mine]
I agree that there are a lot of wacky conspiracy theories among Greeks, to an infuriating degree, but the above bolded statement is one of the funniest things I've read all week.

So, someone asked Kissinger if he said something inflammatory/controversial and he denied it? Case closed! It means he never said it!

(I'm not saying that he did make that statement, just the fact that he denies saying it doesn't prove anything)
  #73  
Old 03-09-2011, 01:21 PM
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Maybe what you say is true of US textbooks, but I think Americans are just as big on "rubbishing" everyone they are in conflict with. e.g. the Soviets when they were a threat, and the Arabs/Muslims they are in conflict with now.
Well, not really. Americans didn't rubbish the Soviets; they were terrified of them. It wasn't until after the Cold War that people figured that out.
  #74  
Old 03-09-2011, 01:23 PM
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That's weird, you'd think for people still hating Turkey, identifying themselves with Muslims over Westerners in a conflict would sound strange. Anything to do with the Turkey-Israel axis? Or is it because the Palestinian conflict can not help but remind them of their own struggles against Turkey?
They see it as follows:
  • A US ally, Turkey, is occupying a weaker country, Cyprus, with backing from the US (political backing and military equipment)
  • A US ally, Israel, is occupying a weaker country/people, Palestine/Palestinians, with backing from the US (political backing and military equipment)
So, it's easy to see why Greeks would identify with Palestinians in the above conflict.
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:25 PM
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Well, not really. Americans didn't rubbish the Soviets; they were terrified of them. It wasn't until after the Cold War that people figured that out.
Well, people usually rubbish people they are terrified of. Don't you think the current image Arabs/Muslims have in the US is a very bad one? And don't you think that that is due to the fact that Americans are terrified of them?
  #76  
Old 03-09-2011, 01:28 PM
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They see it as follows:
  • A US ally, Turkey, is occupying a weaker country, Cyprus, with backing from the US (political backing and military equipment)
  • A US ally, Israel, is occupying a weaker country/people, Palestine/Palestinians, with backing from the US (political backing and military equipment)
So, it's easy to see why Greeks would identify with Palestinians in the above conflict.
I totally doubt the identifying with Palestinians has anything to do with the Cyprus situation.
  #77  
Old 03-09-2011, 01:29 PM
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EVERYONE in the Balkans hates the Turks (except the Turks, naturally, who are, as far as I can tell, totally oblivious about this). Bulgarians refer to the Ottoman occupation as the "Tursko Robstvo", which is usually translated as "Turkish Yoke". It took me awhile to parse this phrase, but it literally means "Turkish Slavery." It is extremely common to hear people talk about "when we were the slaves of the Turks," that sort of thing.
Fun fact of the day: that word is cognate to our word "robot".
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:31 PM
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That's weird, you'd think for people still hating Turkey, identifying themselves with Muslims over Westerners in a conflict would sound strange. Anything to do with the Turkey-Israel axis? Or is it because the Palestinian conflict can not help but remind them of their own struggles against Turkey?

P.S: BTW, Brainglutton , you said "Why? How many Jews are there in Greece today anyway?", that's weird. I dont think there's a direct relation between antisemitism and having a large Jewish pop.
Greece has had an excellent relationship with the Arab world. Andreas Papandreou who was a prime minister in the 80s and 90s had very very close ties with Arafat, Qaddafi (ah… in retrospect…) and other Arab leaders. The critical distinction is not Greece VS muslims, it is Greece VS Turkey.

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[Bolding mine]
I agree that there are a lot of wacky conspiracy theories among Greeks, to an infuriating degree, but the above bolded statement is one of the funniest things I've read all week.

So, someone asked Kissinger if he said something inflammatory/controversial and he denied it? Case closed! It means he never said it!

(I'm not saying that he did make that statement, just the fact that he denies saying it doesn't prove anything)
Ok… I suppose you can say that is the weaker of the available evidence. We all like to gang up on Kissinger about what an evil super villain he is, but when I see him talk about all the controversies he has been involved in he generally tries to explain them somehow in the context of the time, not merely deny he ever said anything. Of course you can correct me if I am wrong.

In any case, there is no evidence he has some indiscriminate anti-Greek grudge. If he was involved in “anti-Greek” actions it was under the umbrella of the indiscriminate anticommunism of the time.
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:35 PM
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Fun fact of the day: that word is cognate to our word "robot".
Mmmm...I think the cognate comes from the Czech word for "work", which is no doubt related. I don't speak Czech, but in Bulgarian it's "rabotya".
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:38 PM
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Don't you think the current image Arabs/Muslims have in the US is a very bad one? And don't you think that that is due to the fact that Americans are terrified of them?
Well, not exactly. I mean, it's not like the image is totally irrational. It's just unfortunate that Americans don't know anything about Arabs or Muslims in general, so they all get tarred with the same brush.
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:46 PM
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Well, the Greeks were calling themselves the Roman Empire for quite a long time, too.
Though in fairness, they really did earn that one. No one else was running old Roman political institutions, after all. (Though now and then some Italian bandit would try to be recognized as a nominal vassal of the Byzantine emperor.)
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:51 PM
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Not only were they calling their state the Roman Empire, they were calling themselves Romans (Rhomioi).
  #83  
Old 03-09-2011, 01:58 PM
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On the Palestinian thing, there are a fair number[1] of Greek Orthodox[1] Christian Palestinians, which could have something to do with it.

Also, the Arabs (particularly Levantine Arabs) are totally down with the hating-on-the-Turks thing, which gives them something else in common.

[1] much fewer now in the Palestinian territories & Israel than there used to be, but still a fair number
[2] Technically, they just use "Orthodox"

Last edited by Tom Scud; 03-09-2011 at 01:59 PM. Reason: footnote size
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:59 PM
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I totally doubt the identifying with Palestinians has anything to do with the Cyprus situation.
Do you have any evidence to support that? Have you lived in Greece/Cyprus, have Greek friends, are Greek, or something like that?
  #85  
Old 03-09-2011, 02:10 PM
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Going back to the original question by the OP about Macedonia, I think the way some Greeks see it is, if a country with the name of Macedonia is created in that space, then somewhere down the line, in a century or more (or less), some nationalist movement of that country could make the claim that "We are Macedonia. Some of our land is under Greek control. We must liberate it and unite it with the rest of Macedonia"

Worrying about this too much today does look to be on the paranoid side, but it is not totally unlikely.

Of course, such a nationalist movement might occur no matter what the name of that country is, so it's not clear that worrying about the name is that important.

Last edited by Polerius; 03-09-2011 at 02:12 PM.
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Old 03-09-2011, 02:13 PM
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On the Palestinian thing, there are a fair number[1] of Greek Orthodox[1] Christian Palestinians, which could have something to do with it.
I think the religion angle has nothing to do with it. I could even say that Greeks identify with the Palestinian cause despite the religion angle, not because of it.
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Old 03-09-2011, 02:14 PM
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Come to think (and apologies for continuing a minihijack), in pretty much every country that borders Turkey and doesn't speak a Turkic language, they hate the Turks, with the possible exceptions of Iran and Georgia.
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Old 03-09-2011, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by newcomer View Post
You're probably referring to the very old history but Greece's recent history, say last 100 to 150 years, is a total mess. It starts really bad (Turkey), gets even worse (Germany, Italy, Bulgaria) and then ends up with a civil war where they were the first country West intervened to set it up as a front line in a Cold War. It's actually pretty screwed up history so one can perhaps understand some of the thinking behind Macedonia issue even though, in this time and age, it is totally not justified.
Greece did free itself from Turkish rule. They did as well as anyone in the Balkan Wars. They were on the right side of World War II and the Cold War so there's nothing they've got to revise there. And they successfully made the transition from autocratic monarchy to constitutional democracy.
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Old 03-09-2011, 02:44 PM
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Regarding the reason why Greece is so pro-Palestinian. Palestinians are seen as weak underdogs which has struck a cord in Greece. As I said, Yasser Arafat was an ultra friend of Greece back in the day. Many of the Greek “anarchists” have been wearing palestinian scarfs for quite a while now, to such a degree that it has become part of their identity.

To a very large degree, the support for Palestinians was fed by the Greek left which sees itself as a champion of underdogs everywhere. Of course… that is not to say they did not support Serbia during the Kosovo conflict. Probably the bleakest page in recent Greek history.

Apropos…the recent fall out between Turkey and Israel has created a newly vacant niche for Greek-Israeli relationships. The Greek far-right has of course the “natural” anti-semitic tendencies, but it is rather comedic how the far-right is now doing whatever it can to convince the prime-minister to hasten signing deals with Israel.

Regarding the overall nature of recent Greek history. During its short existence Greece has managed to expand itself considerably, and was fortuitously on the right side during WWII. I say fortuitously because there was a dictatorship at the time. He could have chosen as he wished, and I can tell you that he had quite a bit of sympathy for Mussolini. It is always funny to me how out teachers would try to convince us that the Greeks said "NO" to Italy. It is not as if they voted... Nevertheless, Greeks did their share during WWII.

On the other hand, Greece experienced a humiliating defeat by Turkey at the very end of the 19th century (we never learn about that at school), and later after trying to play an ill-advised expansionist game deep in Turkey the plan seriously backfired resulting in the loss of Asia Minor, the post-WWII civil war robbed Greece of its brightest minds, and there was a 7 year junta in the end of the 60s until the mid 70s. The Cyprus issue is of course the most shameful part of all of this with no end in sight.

Thankfuly... Greece is now a democratic country without a royal family and a rather vibrant press that is extremely critical of the government without fear of prosecution.

Now... if there would be a separation of church and state...
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Old 03-09-2011, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Anisos View Post
after trying to play an ill-advised expansionist game deep in Turkey the plan seriously backfired resulting in the loss of Asia Minor
What are you referring to here? I wonder if my understanding of the term "Asia Minor" is problematic. I understand to mean Anatolia, i.e., mainland Turkey. So it would seem to me that Greece "lost" Asia Minor a long, long time ago.

Quote:
The Cyprus issue is of course the most shameful part of all of this with no end in sight.
I understand that there is an ongoing dispute over whether North Cyprus should be an independent ethnically Turkish state. Where does the "shame" lie, in your view?

Quote:
Thankfuly... Greece is now a democratic country without a royal family
So you don't think that Greece would have been a successful constitutional monarchy, such as Britain, Spain, etc.?
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Old 03-09-2011, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
Greece did free itself from Turkish rule. They did as well as anyone in the Balkan Wars. They were on the right side of World War II and the Cold War so there's nothing they've got to revise there. And they successfully made the transition from autocratic monarchy to constitutional democracy.
Khm... "right side of the Cold War"...

There are still people around who escaped Civil War in Greece 1946-49 instigated by US and UK - they would probably beg to differ.

But, I guess, that’s a whole different subject now.
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Old 03-09-2011, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by acsenray View Post
What are you referring to here? I wonder if my understanding of the term "Asia Minor" is problematic. I understand to mean Anatolia, i.e., mainland Turkey. So it would seem to me that Greece "lost" Asia Minor a long, long time ago.



I understand that there is an ongoing dispute over whether North Cyprus should be an independent ethnically Turkish state. Where does the "shame" lie, in your view?



So you don't think that Greece would have been a successful constitutional monarchy, such as Britain, Spain, etc.?
I am referring to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-T...9%E2%80%931922)
I should have said that Greece lost its claim on Asia minor after that conflict. Greek borders did not change after that conflict.

The shame in the Cyprus question lies in how it was initially a Greek plan to get rid of Turks, while it is almost always presented as Turkish aggression by the Greek press.

Regarding the monarchy question, I am content that Greece has no monarchy of any kind.
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Old 03-09-2011, 03:35 PM
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On the other hand, Greece experienced a humiliating defeat by Turkey at the very end of the 19th century (we never learn about that at school)
Anisos, which defeat are you referring to here?
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Old 03-09-2011, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Polerius View Post
Anisos, which defeat are you referring to here?
I am referring to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Turkish_War_(1897)
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Old 03-09-2011, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by acsenray View Post
So you don't think that Greece would have been a successful constitutional monarchy, such as Britain, Spain, etc.?
I didnt answer your question. I suppose we could have learned to stop worrying and love our foreign royals but I find it unlikely. Ok... not "foreign" because they had been around for a while.

Only in the far right do you find people who yearn for the king. The ex-king still tries to sell himself as the king of Greece (although he does not interfere almost at all with Greek issues), attends the royal weddings etc. There is enough trouble with the church intervening with secular issues, I cant imagine how it would be having the king and his cohorts around. Losing the royals was a deliverance as far as I am concerned.
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Old 03-09-2011, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Anisos View Post
The shame in the Cyprus question lies in how it was initially a Greek plan to get rid of Turks, while it is almost always presented as Turkish aggression by the Greek press.
While I agree that the real story of what happened in Cyprus is much more complicated than what the Greeks had been taught, I think it is also much more complicated than what you are presenting here ("a Greek plan to get rid of Turks")

Some events that happened in the beginning-to-middle of the 20th century, e.g. Britain/Turkey effort to emphasize that Greeks & Turks cannot possibly get along, staging some forced riots in Istanbul to prove that, calling for taksim (division) as the only solution for Cyprus, starting from around 1930 I believe , all laid the groundwork for the events that happened later in the 20th century, which had both sides doing horrible stuff.

Here is an example
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
The pogrom was triggered by Greece's appeal in 1954 to the United Nations to demand self-determination for Cyprus. Britain had the ruling mandate over the mostly ethnic Greek island, and wanted the Cyprus dispute to be resolved without being taken to the United Nations Security Council, where it could be problematically framed as an anti-colonialist struggle.[8][10] To this end, Britain diplomatically encouraged Turkey to agitate Greece.
...

The Istanbul Pogrom (also known as the Istanbul Riots or Constantinople Pogrom; Greek: Σεπτεμβριανά (Events of September); Turkish: 6–7 Eylül Olayları (Events of September 6–7)), was a pogrom directed primarily at Istanbul's Greek minority on 6–7 September 1955. The riots were orchestrated by the Turkish military's Tactical Mobilization Group, the seat of Operation Gladio's Turkish branch; the Counter-Guerrilla. The events were triggered by the news that the Turkish consulate in Thessaloniki, north Greece—the house where Mustafa Kemal Atatürk was born in 1881—had been bombed the day before.[3] A bomb planted by a Turkish usher of the consulate, who was later arrested and confessed, incited the events.
What's interesting about the self-planted bomb by the Turks, is that they used this exact same tactic in Cyprus, where a Turk bombed some Turkish office and that started a set of bloody riots by Turks blaming Greeks for the bomb. Rauf Denktash (the Turkish-Cypriot leader) admitted a few years ago that a Turk had set off the bomb, and that it was a strategic move.

Anyway, the situation is hardly "the Turks were the sole aggressors" or "the Greeks were the sole aggressors". It's quite complicated, as you are undoubtedly aware.
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Old 03-09-2011, 04:55 PM
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Yes, that is fair Polerius, I did not mean to be unfair to the Greek side and I of course do not support the separation in any way. Nevertheless I am profoundly annoyed that the Greek side is not prepared to assume its responsibilities.
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Old 03-09-2011, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Polerius View Post
They see it as follows:
  • A US ally, Turkey, is occupying a weaker country, Cyprus, with backing from the US (political backing and military equipment)
  • A US ally, Israel, is occupying a weaker country/people, Palestine/Palestinians, with backing from the US (political backing and military equipment)
So, it's easy to see why Greeks would identify with Palestinians in the above conflict.
That would be a rather bizarre position to take seeing that a US ally, Greece, with backing from the US (political backing and military equipment) would be taking it.
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Old 03-09-2011, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by newcomer View Post
Khm... "right side of the Cold War"...

There are still people around who escaped Civil War in Greece 1946-49 instigated by US and UK - they would probably beg to differ.

But, I guess, that’s a whole different subject now.
Considering the conflict between the left and the right started while Greece was still under Axis occupation, it's hard to see how the British and the Americans could have instigated it. Especially the Americans as we didn't get involved in the war until well after it had begun.

As for which side of the Cold War was the right side - it wasn't the one being led by Joseph Stalin.
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Old 03-09-2011, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Dissonance View Post
That would be a rather bizarre position to take seeing that a US ally, Greece, with backing from the US (political backing and military equipment) would be taking it.
I think Greeks don't feel that they have any political backing from the US. In most disputes with Turkey, it is taken as a fact that the US leans more to the Turkish position than the Greek position, mainly due to the strategic geopolitical location of Turkey, which is much more important to US national interests than Greece is.

During the Cold War, Turkey was bordering the Soviet Union, and so was very useful, and today, Turkey borders Iran/Iraq, which is very useful in today's world.

So, while technically allies, I don't think most Greeks feel that much support from or connection to the US.

(Also, I think Turkey and Israel receive *much* more money in aid each year than Greece does, so that also may make them feel that they are not as buddy-buddy with the US as Turkey and Israel are)
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