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Old 07-15-2019, 04:58 PM
Wesley Clark is offline
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Was Colin Kaepernick actually trying to protest police brutality or just trigger conservatives


Kaepernick is an intelligent guy, he graduated college with a 4.0 GPA and scored very above average on a wonderlic cognitive test they give NFL players.

He says his protests are about protesting police brutality.

But it doesn't seem to have worked. The concept of police brutality never even comes up. The entire conversation has been shifted to 'black people are disrespecting the flag and the military'. The entire point of the protests has been lost on many people.

As I said, Kaepernick is an intelligent person so I'm sure he knew a black person protesting police brutality would get a lot of rage from conservatives. Lots of people hate it when black people stand up for themselves or demand to be treated with respect and dignity. Obviously they aren't willing to admit this, so they lie to themselves and others and pretend their motives are more socially acceptable. Rage over black people standing up for themselves gets morphed into rage over 'disrespect for the military'.

Triggering conservatives isn't hard. They have a stronger threat response, enjoy privilege and dislike multiculturalism. Just increase multiculturalism, attack privilege, or make them feel defenseless.

Add a $300 tax on firearms and use the money to fund public defenders for illegal immigrants.

Tax evangelical christian churches and use the money to fund minority education scholarships in the inner city.

Cut funding for the military and use the money to promote voter registration drives among latinos

Cut funding for private, chartered, christian schools and use the money to support a Muslim integration fund to encourage muslims to enter mainstream society.

etc

Its not hard, but politics in the US is already extremely toxic (and people like play a part in that). Just triggering people you don't like doesn't achieve much.

Was Kaepernick actually trying to protest police brutality and bring attention to it, or was he just trying to trigger the kinds of people who make excuses for police brutality as long as it is directed against scary non-whites?

Was he actually trying to bring attention to police brutality in the hopes it would lead to a constructive dialogue and positive solutions to the issue, or just piss off people who hate it when black people stand up for themselves?
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Old 07-15-2019, 05:24 PM
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I think Kaepernick got himself a girlfriend who happened to be an activist and through that he found a way to enrich or build a brand for himself. I've never heard anything insightful about society or current events come out of his mouth. It might be plausible his motives being driven by status are mostly understandable without examining the political landscape.

Several years ago while in his fairly brief professional prime Kaepernick kind of was a polarizing player and quite hated, certainly around where I live. He had a couple games versus Green Bay where he ran for a ton of yardage, which it is believed should not be allowed to happen for a below average passer in the modern game, and I believe his demeanor was a turn off. He may be attuned to factors that could cause certain types of negative attention.
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Old 07-15-2019, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
Rage over black people standing up for themselves gets morphed into rage over 'disrespect for the military'.

...

Was he actually trying to bring attention to police brutality in the hopes it would lead to a constructive dialogue and positive solutions to the issue, or just piss off people who hate it when black people stand up for themselves?
I can't pretend to know what CK was thinking, but I can assure you of one thing: A lot of people who don't get pissed off "when black people stand up for themselves" still get pissed off when the flag, anthem, or the military are being disrespected. It's distressingly common around this place for certain posters to willfully conflate any kind of patriotism or conservative values with racism, and it's something that needs to stop. It's no better than people on the right painting the left as America-hating socialists who should just GTFO already.

Protesting the way he did was a move designed to get people's attention, and in that at least, he was quite successful. Whether it was helpful or productive is a different debate. What he intended only he knows, but I see no reason to doubt what he said.
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Old 07-15-2019, 05:38 PM
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I don't think you can blame him for "But it doesn't seem to have worked." There isn't (usually) a quick fix for these kinds of problems. He tried something. Maybe it advanced the conversation, maybe it didn't. Like CAH66, I tend to take him at his word.

PS: Since I'm a Seahawk fan, I was never a fan of him as a player.
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Old 07-15-2019, 05:40 PM
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I can't pretend to know what CK was thinking, but I can assure you of one thing: A lot of people who don't get pissed off "when black people stand up for themselves" still get pissed off when the flag, anthem, or the military are being disrespected. It's distressingly common around this place for certain posters to willfully conflate any kind of patriotism or conservative values with racism, and it's something that needs to stop. It's no better than people on the right painting the left as America-hating socialists who should just GTFO already.

Protesting the way he did was a move designed to get people's attention, and in that at least, he was quite successful. Whether it was helpful or productive is a different debate. What he intended only he knows, but I see no reason to doubt what he said.
I'm sure you felt the same rage when Trump insulted John McCain or when John Kerry was being made fun of.
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Old 07-15-2019, 05:40 PM
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Im not sure you can have an insightful debate centering around the personal thoughts of another person, but think he was misguided at best if he chose to ignore the flag to protest police brutality. The flag represents the country, and the country is not sanctioning or encouraging police brutality- the US in no way benefits from police killing innocent minorities, quite the opposite, it makes the country worse off. Some police-centric protest would have gotten his message out better- protest or rally outside a station or something.

Last edited by Helmut Doork; 07-15-2019 at 05:42 PM.
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Old 07-15-2019, 05:44 PM
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But it worked in a way. When you strip off the rhetoric, many of the apologists for police brutality are ok with it when it is directed against scary minorities and scary immigrants. Obviously when the police are investigating Trump or the Bundy clan then according to those same people, the cops are evil.

I think Kaepernick is smart enough to know that a black man 'disrespecting' the flag and military to stand up for black people would trigger conservatives, but did he think it would lead to a productive conversation that would lead to productive solutions to police brutality or was he just trying to trigger people who hate multiculturalism and value tradition/security? Obviously the only person who can answer that is him though.
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Old 07-15-2019, 05:50 PM
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Im not sure you can have an insightful debate centering around the personal thoughts of another person, but think he was misguided at best if he chose to ignore the flag to protest police brutality. The flag represents the country, and the country is not sanctioning or encouraging police brutality- the US in no way benefits from police killing innocent minorities, quite the opposite, it makes the country worse off. Some police-centric protest would have gotten his message out better- protest or rally outside a station or something.
I think his point was the country was (or is) sanctioning police brutality by not stopping it. It's not unreasonable for him to conclude it would take a national conversation to get things to start going in the right direction. It takes more than a rally outside the local police station to make that happen.

And, of course, he didn't "ignore" the flag. He simply didn't stand during the National Anthem. That's a pretty mild statement, no matter how much you love the flag.
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Old 07-15-2019, 06:02 PM
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I think his point was the country was (or is) sanctioning police brutality by not stopping it. It's not unreasonable for him to conclude it would take a national conversation to get things to start going in the right direction. It takes more than a rally outside the local police station to make that happen.

And, of course, he didn't "ignore" the flag. He simply didn't stand during the National Anthem. That's a pretty mild statement, no matter how much you love the flag.
Oh definitely it was the best route for maximum attention, just I don't see what the US govt. can do- bad apples become cops, but its up to the individual police forces to determine who they hire, and fire. And you cant blame the govt. when those guilty of brutality get away with it in court- that's on the juries.

When the govt engages is an unpopular war like Vietnam, I understand the flag burning, because the flag represents the govt and you are opposing a govt. sanctioned act- with police I think its a totally different thing, YMMV.
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Old 07-15-2019, 06:06 PM
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The flag represents the country, and the country is not sanctioning or encouraging police brutality- the US in no way benefits from police killing innocent minorities, quite the opposite, it makes the country worse off.
That it encourages it and whether it benefits from it are two totally different questions.
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Old 07-15-2019, 06:29 PM
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Oh definitely it was the best route for maximum attention, just I don't see what the US govt. can do- bad apples become cops, but its up to the individual police forces to determine who they hire, and fire. And you cant blame the govt. when those guilty of brutality get away with it in court- that's on the juries.
The protest, as I understand it, isn't just about the "US Government," but the United States in general. The flgd and the anthem are symbols of our nation, not our government.


Who encourages the police to make better hires/fires? Other people. City councils, mayors, judges.

And, the U.S.Justice Department has stepped in and gone after bad cops and police departments. The Seattle Police are under court ordered and supervised "consent decree" right now. (and the SPD is by no means the worst)

Who serves on Juries? People who watch football I bet.

Getting maximum attention for this type of problem is the only way it's going to change.
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Old 07-15-2019, 06:40 PM
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Oh definitely it was the best route for maximum attention, just I don't see what the US govt. can do- bad apples become cops, but its up to the individual police forces to determine who they hire, and fire. And you cant blame the govt. when those guilty of brutality get away with it in court- that's on the juries.

When the govt engages is an unpopular war like Vietnam, I understand the flag burning, because the flag represents the govt and you are opposing a govt. sanctioned act- with police I think its a totally different thing, YMMV.
The federal government has gotten involved in local police forces who used too much brutality before

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/in...=.453cca603475

Also the federal government can withhold funds if agencies do not reform their policies regarding behavior and hiring.
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Old 07-15-2019, 06:43 PM
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A lot of people who don't get pissed off "when black people stand up for themselves" still get pissed off when the flag, anthem, or the military are being disrespected.
1) The flag doesn't have jack shit to do with the military, any more than it has to do with, say, government statisticians. Eliding kneeling during the national anthem with disrespect for the military is complete and total Fox/Trump bullshit.

2) Kneeling wasn't disrespectful until the right-wing media decided it was so.
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Old 07-15-2019, 06:55 PM
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When the govt engages is an unpopular war like Vietnam, I understand the flag burning, because the flag represents the govt and you are opposing a govt. sanctioned act- with police I think its a totally different thing, YMMV.
I'm old enough to be able to assure you that this triggered conservatives also.
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Old 07-15-2019, 06:57 PM
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One theory among some sports fans had been that Kaepernick knew he was in danger of being released from the 49ers roster, and that by gaining political notoriety over a cause like this, he made it hard for the Niners to release him, from a PR standpoint.
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Old 07-15-2019, 07:17 PM
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One thing that does bother me about Kaepernick is that while he's very vocal about acting against injustice, he has also stated that he refuses to vote. How can you possibly try and make a change, without voting?


I mean, that's his right. But we've seen how close elections can be, and your vote DOES count.

I also question his shilling for a company that has a record of using child labor and sweatshops. If he's so concerned about oppression and racism, why is taking money from a company that is guilty of such horrible practices?
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Old 07-15-2019, 07:53 PM
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Also the federal government can withhold funds if agencies do not reform their policies regarding behavior and hiring.
Yes, I get that, if a police force is on record of actively encouraging brutality, or doing zero testing at all when hiring, or anything other than showing they hire in good faith and within the guidelines, they should face circumstances. But to paraphrase legendary cop Joe Friday, their will always be this sort of thing, because when you pick cops, you pick from the human race.

Its not like this is limited to one police force, it is everywhere at one time or another.

Last edited by Helmut Doork; 07-15-2019 at 07:55 PM.
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Old 07-15-2019, 08:19 PM
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One theory among some sports fans had been that Kaepernick knew he was in danger of being released from the 49ers roster, and that by gaining political notoriety over a cause like this, he made it hard for the Niners to release him, from a PR standpoint.
Hahaha, thats clever if true.
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Old 07-15-2019, 09:35 PM
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Yes, I get that, if a police force is on record of actively encouraging brutality, or doing zero testing at all when hiring, or anything other than showing they hire in good faith and within the guidelines, they should face circumstances. But to paraphrase legendary cop Joe Friday, their will always be this sort of thing, because when you pick cops, you pick from the human race.

Its not like this is limited to one police force, it is everywhere at one time or another.
Then all the good cops should have no issues with eliminating the bad cops from their profession.

People run for office on "Law and Order". Not so strangely, many of the tactics they support and laws they try to pass are evil and/or unconstitutional. In a country where black people carrying plastic guns in an open carry state are gunned down within 2 seconds of the police officer's arrival, and armed security guys attempt to detain black police officers because they don't believe he's a cop, this leads to an environment where abuse is rampant and unchecked. Black people bear the brunt of this. Protesting this reality is not unpatriotic, it isn't wrong. But hey, we've argued this to death over the last couple of years, haven't we?

Please don't believe some strange conspiracy theory that Colin Kaepernick is the left wing version of the right wing troll, only doing it to make money off the marks. That's a kind of "well we think this way, so therefore he must too" theory.
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Old 07-15-2019, 10:38 PM
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My take on it is that Kaepernick was legit and was taking a knee as a way to protest police brutality. It became something else because his critics continued to escalate the situation, and the NFL colluded to ruin his career over it. Worse, when other black players took a knee with him, they were scorned as well. Protesting police brutality became ultimately a protest against America, and right wing white America interpreted his message in different ways. So yes, his protests became a lot more than just protests against police brutality, but that's because different groups of triggered white conservatives kept trying to punish him for different perceived slights.
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Old 07-15-2019, 11:10 PM
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My take on it is that Kaepernick was legit and was taking a knee as a way to protest police brutality. It became something else because his critics continued to escalate the situation, and the NFL colluded to ruin his career over it. Worse, when other black players took a knee with him, they were scorned as well. Protesting police brutality became ultimately a protest against America, and right wing white America interpreted his message in different ways. So yes, his protests became a lot more than just protests against police brutality, but that's because different groups of triggered white conservatives kept trying to punish him for different perceived slights.
I guess what I'm wondering is did Kaepernick know conservative white America would be so filled with rage at the sight of a black person standing up for himself that they would find a way to turn it into a more socially acceptable narrative (to them). So they turned it into entitled, ungrateful, rich NFL players disrespecting the military and the flag when in actuality it is black people and their allies protesting police brutality.

I guess I don't know if he expected his protests to lead to anything constructive or not.
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Old 07-15-2019, 11:49 PM
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I guess what I'm wondering is did Kaepernick know conservative white America would be so filled with rage at the sight of a black person standing up for himself that they would find a way to turn it into a more socially acceptable narrative (to them). So they turned it into entitled, ungrateful, rich NFL players disrespecting the military and the flag when in actuality it is black people and their allies protesting police brutality.

I guess I don't know if he expected his protests to lead to anything constructive or not.
It depends on how you define "constructive." Maybe he wanted controversy because on some level he thought controversy would raise awareness and get attention. I think the reason Kaepernick took the knee was because he felt that most of the people watching at home simply shrugged off blacks getting killed by white officers as just another day in America. Yes, he knew people wouldn't like it, but sometimes, these kinds of controversies can raise awareness and start discussions. A lot of people didn't like Muhammad Ali's decision to take jail over the draft, but over time, people came to understand him in a different light.
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Old 07-16-2019, 12:20 AM
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He was advised to do what he did (the specific action, anyway) by a combat veteran.

It may be an excuse, but that kind of tells me he didn’t expect it to blow up in the exact way it did.
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Old 07-16-2019, 07:19 AM
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He was advised to do what he did (the specific action, anyway) by a combat veteran.

It may be an excuse, but that kind of tells me he didn’t expect it to blow up in the exact way it did.
IIRC, he wasn't advised to protest by the veteran; he was advised to take a knee rather than sit on his helmet, because he thought that it would be less controversial than just sitting down. Turns out, it didn't really do much to defuse the controversy. At a time when the values of moderation and pragmatism are on the decline, tribalism becomes the norm. And you can't kinda be a member of a tribe: you either are a member, or you're not. Kaepernick and his Black colleagues have found out the hard way.
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Old 07-16-2019, 08:06 AM
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Really shocked by some of the responses in this thread.
No, Kaepernick could not have predicted that the protests would be successfully spun as something that they absolutely are not.
He's protesting at that time because when else can he that people will see, and kneeling is arguably the most respectful pose / gesture a person can make.
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Old 07-16-2019, 08:14 AM
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Was Colin Kaepernick actually trying to protest police brutality or just trigger conservatives
An emphatic, "NO!"

By even asking that question, you are telling me that you really don't understand that the Black Experience in this nation has been pure hell.
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Old 07-16-2019, 09:15 AM
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It's distressingly common around this place for certain posters to willfully conflate any kind of patriotism or conservative values with racism, and it's something that needs to stop.
Let's just say that if you made a Venn Diagram of the two, there would be a large amount of overlap.
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Old 07-16-2019, 10:21 AM
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I don't pretend to be able to channel Colin Kaepernick's thoughts, but I have a real problem trying to picture deciding to "just trigger conservatives". What's in it for him?

1. Trigger conservatives
2. ...
3. Profit?

I mean, the motivation for asking the questions seems to be that it didn't work out, so Kaepernick is supposed to have known both that it wouldn't solve police brutality and that he'd get a sponsorship deal without having to play?

That just seems so much less likely to me than a man who wanted to use the platform available to him to bring more attention to something he though wasn't getting enough attention.
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Old 07-16-2019, 10:29 AM
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Conservatives endorse police brutality against minorities, tacitly and explicitly, so of course they will impugn his motivations, endorsement partners and personal relationships. It's impossible that he is genuinely appalled and sought to use his celebrity to help effect social change. Nah, he's just an uppity loudmouth who hates America, and the troops especially.
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Old 07-16-2019, 10:46 AM
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I'm sure you felt the same rage when Trump insulted John McCain or when John Kerry was being made fun of.
First, "rage" is way too strong for my feelings for CK. I don't remember what Trump said about Kerry, but yes, I was royally pissed when Captain Bone-Spurs crapped all over McCain with his "I like people who weren't captured" comments.

You may have some idea that I'm a Republican, but I am decidedly not. The last (R) I voted for in any national election was Reagan when I was 18. I am nevertheless a veteran and I take a pretty dim view of the anthem kneeling for the chosen method of protest. Regardless, I don't like having my distaste for Kapaernik's kneeling being assumed as or equated to bigotry. I'd feel no different about it if it was Aaron Rodgers.
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Old 07-16-2019, 10:58 AM
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What would you consider to be an acceptable means of protest, then?

Please note that kneeling is the standard way athletes show concern for injured fellow athletes, expressing hope for their recovery. I understood Kaepernick to be similarly expressing concern for an injured country, and hope for its recovery. Yes, it would have helped if he'd stated his reasons more clearly, but isn't that a far more substantial act of patriotism than ritual symbol-worship?
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Old 07-16-2019, 11:27 AM
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I can't pretend to know what CK was thinking, but I can assure you of one thing: A lot of people who don't get pissed off "when black people stand up for themselves" still get pissed off when the flag, anthem, or the military are being disrespected. .

Speaking for myself, as a veteran, it is wayyyy more disrespectful to use us as political game pieces than to kneel during the anthem.
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Old 07-16-2019, 11:29 AM
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I'm sure you felt the same rage when Trump insulted John McCain or when John Kerry was being made fun of.


Or when Trump hugged the flag.
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Old 07-16-2019, 11:56 AM
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Conservatives endorse police brutality against minorities, tacitly and explicitly,
Generalize much?

Or do you constantly live in a simple black/white world?

The police shooting issue in the US is much more complicated and nuanced than you or CK make it out. And not every police shooting is the same.

If I had to narrow it down to a most common theme, it would be poorly trained police officers.
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Old 07-16-2019, 12:19 PM
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1) The flag doesn't have jack shit to do with the military, any more than it has to do with, say, government statisticians. Eliding kneeling during the national anthem with disrespect for the military is complete and total Fox/Trump bullshit.

2) Kneeling wasn't disrespectful until the right-wing media decided it was so.
Second point first. The protocol for showing respect for the flag and the anthem is to stand and salute if in uniform, to remove your hat and place your hand over your heart if not. Taking a knee is absolutely the opposite of that, intentionally and pointedly so. As hard and often as right-wing media spins, this is one time they didn't need to turn one little bit.

As far as the flag not having "jack shit" to do with the military... It doesn't belong exclusively to the military, no. It is nevertheless a very central part of military culture and if there is any segment of the population that holds the flag most dear, it is the military. It's an integral part of every single ceremony and function we have. It's the symbol of our national ideals, our service, and Reveille and Retreat are daily reminders of all we are there for. As a young airman I was in the Honor Guard for a couple years. I carried a lot of flag-draped coffins, folded a lot of graveside flags and, just once, ended up having to be the person who handed it off to a grieving daughter. It still stands out as one of the most difficult days of my entire life.

While I can't pretend to speak for all the military people out there, I can say that there are a lot of military members who feel that disrespect to the flag and the anthem is a slap in the face. If someone publicly smashed a crucifix every week on TV because they were pissed at the church's scandals, would you expect rank and file Catholics to not feel insulted and angry because it wan't "aimed" at them?
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Old 07-16-2019, 12:27 PM
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I can't pretend to know what CK was thinking, but I can assure you of one thing: A lot of people who don't get pissed off "when black people stand up for themselves" still get pissed off when the flag, anthem, or the military are being disrespected. It's distressingly common around this place for certain posters to willfully conflate any kind of patriotism or conservative values with racism, and it's something that needs to stop.
The fact that 'conservative values' cause people like you to fly into a rage when a black man respectfully takes a knee during the national anthem but not when Trump attacks active service members (like transgender service members), doesn't salute the flag, mocks veterans like McCain, and so on, it's pretty clear what the motive is. When a black man deliberately and quietly taking a knee is terrible to you but a white congressman snoring during the anthem doesn't even warrant notice, that's racism. When a black man protesting murder counts as disrespectful to the military but a white man kicking active service members out or insulting a vet doesn't, that's racism.

"Conservative values" in the Trump era are pure, blatant bigotry.
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Old 07-16-2019, 12:27 PM
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Let's just say that if you made a Venn Diagram of the two, there would be a large amount of overlap.
Well then I guess it's okay then! Just collateral damage as it were, bystanders caught in the crossfire.
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Old 07-16-2019, 12:39 PM
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As far as the flag not having "jack shit" to do with the military... It doesn't belong exclusively to the military, no. It is nevertheless a very central part of military culture and if there is any segment of the population that holds the flag most dear, it is the military. It's an integral part of every single ceremony and function we have. It's the symbol of our national ideals, our service, and Reveille and Retreat are daily reminders of all we are there for. As a young airman I was in the Honor Guard for a couple years. I carried a lot of flag-draped coffins, folded a lot of graveside flags and, just once, ended up having to be the person who handed it off to a grieving daughter. It still stands out as one of the most difficult days of my entire life.

While I can't pretend to speak for all the military people out there, I can say that there are a lot of military members who feel that disrespect to the flag and the anthem is a slap in the face. If someone publicly smashed a crucifix every week on TV because they were pissed at the church's scandals, would you expect rank and file Catholics to not feel insulted and angry because it wan't "aimed" at them?
I can understand that service members feel that way, and I won't attempt to invalidate those feelings. But do they, do you, necessarily have to feel that way? Isn't it possible to judge something in context and separate your feelings about the flag as part of an honor guard, and the flag flying during a football game or out in someone's front porch for that matter?

I realize I'm sometimes a little 'different', but I generally speaking tend to take offenses at things that are intended to be offensive. It's the intent, not just the act itself, that should dictate whether something is offensive.

Kaepernick clearly intended to offend people who are in law enforcement and people who sympathetically take the word of law enforcement over the accused who come from Black communities. There's no question he intended to do that. But there's no evidence he intended to disrespect the military; in fact he (reportedly) consulted with (or was approached by?) a former veteran who basically said that if he's not going to honor the flag, kneeling was, at least in his view better than sitting on his helmet.

I understand that the flag can be an emotional reminder of wartime trauma, but can't it be something else at the same time? Can't it be something completely different in a completely different context? Is it fair to impose life experiences and values on others?

Last edited by asahi; 07-16-2019 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 07-16-2019, 12:40 PM
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I can't pretend to know what CK was thinking, but I can assure you of one thing: A lot of people who don't get pissed off "when black people stand up for themselves" still get pissed off when the flag, anthem, or the military are being disrespected.
This is factually, objectively, not true. Disrespect for the flag is rampant in this country, especially by conservatives, and hardly anyone gets pissed off over it. In fact, a lot of people, especially conservatives, get pissed off at people who don't disrespect the flag. I mean, just recently, the President Pro Tem literally publicly lambasted people for not walking all over the flag.

When people tell me that they're upset with Kaepernick for disrespecting the flag, I know that they're not telling me the truth, because they're not upset over anyone else disrespecting the flag. Which means both that there's some other reason they're upset with Kaepernick, and that they don't want to say what that other reason is. Now, maybe that reason isn't racism, but it's certainly a logical conclusion to draw.
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Old 07-16-2019, 12:52 PM
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The fact that 'conservative values' cause people like you to fly into a rage when a black man respectfully takes a knee during the national anthem but not when Trump attacks active service members (like transgender service members), doesn't salute the flag, mocks veterans like McCain, and so on, it's pretty clear what the motive is. When a black man deliberately and quietly taking a knee is terrible to you but a white congressman snoring during the anthem doesn't even warrant notice, that's racism. When a black man protesting murder counts as disrespectful to the military but a white man kicking active service members out or insulting a vet doesn't, that's racism.

"Conservative values" in the Trump era are pure, blatant bigotry.
Whoa! Slow down there Charlie! Your projector is going to overheat!

"Fly into a rage" is waaaaayyyy too strong, and "respectfully taking a knee" is oxymoronic when there is established protocol for showing respect to the anthem.

The idea that I support Trump in ANY way, let alone on his ban on transgendered troops, attacks on McCain, and pretty much anything he's ever done is 100% wrong. I'm center-left and a registered Democrat for fuck's sake. Regardless, all the non-sequiturs and false dichotomies you suddenly injected into the thread have no bearing on what I was saying, which boils down to not painting every person that doesn't like CK's kneeling as some sort of racist asshole. You can dislike the method of the protest regardless of the message.
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:15 PM
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This is factually, objectively, not true. Disrespect for the flag is rampant in this country, especially by conservatives, and hardly anyone gets pissed off over it. In fact, a lot of people, especially conservatives, get pissed off at people who don't disrespect the flag. I mean, just recently, the President Pro Tem literally publicly lambasted people for not walking all over the flag.

When people tell me that they're upset with Kaepernick for disrespecting the flag, I know that they're not telling me the truth, because they're not upset over anyone else disrespecting the flag. Which means both that there's some other reason they're upset with Kaepernick, and that they don't want to say what that other reason is. Now, maybe that reason isn't racism, but it's certainly a logical conclusion to draw.
I have no idea what you are talking about in the first paragraph. As to the rest-

The flag and flag imagery is fairly ubiquitous and used very casually in our culture. Nevertheless, the use of the flag in a ceremonial playing of the anthem is an entirely different setting and context. There are plenty of people that don't show enough respect in those settings and it's extremely irritating, but there's a world of difference between mere apathy and the very calculated and pointed showing of disrespect.

Do you really think I, or a lot of the others who don't like CK's kneeling, would have approved of it if it had been Peyton Manning? I mean, since you know I'm "not telling you the truth" and all, please inform me of how I'd react to that. I'd really enjoy knowing how I feel.
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:20 PM
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IIRC, he wasn't advised to protest by the veteran; he was advised to take a knee rather than sit on his helmet, because he thought that it would be less controversial than just sitting down. Turns out, it didn't really do much to defuse the controversy. At a time when the values of moderation and pragmatism are on the decline, tribalism becomes the norm. And you can't kinda be a member of a tribe: you either are a member, or you're not. Kaepernick and his Black colleagues have found out the hard way.
(It's been a minute but if remember correctly...) In the beginning it was just a personal protest and he didn't do anything to draw attention to himself or the reason(s) why he didn't stand for the anthem. Whenever it was time for the anthem he just quietly walked to the bench and sat down. After several weeks of this someone caught him on camera and asked what was up, he explained and conservative white folks caught the vapors. Later on, when he was trying to refine his message he started taking a knee to try an stop folks from claiming he was disrespecting the blah, blah, blah bullshit.

Back in the day Mahmoud Abdul Rauf (formerly Chris Jackson) had a similar protest in the NBA where he would sit on the bench during the anthem. Eventually the NBA changed it's rules so that he was required to stand.

And for anyone who thinks this is unusual or a unique standpoint for black people to take I would invite you to catch a game at an HBCU and watch how few people ever rise for the anthem. I can testify that back in the 90s it was quite normal for no one in the stadium/arena/gym/whatever to stand or even stop talking when the song starts to play.
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:28 PM
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I can understand that service members feel that way, and I won't attempt to invalidate those feelings. But do they, do you, necessarily have to feel that way? Isn't it possible to judge something in context and separate your feelings about the flag as part of an honor guard, and the flag flying during a football game or out in someone's front porch for that matter?
I don't disagree at all with what he was trying to do. Intellectually, I even understand why he chose to do it the way he did. I just don't like it, and I'm trying to illustrate why. Nothing about this is related to his cause, which I freely admit is an absolutely just one, just the method he used to garner attention. I am far more offended by the snide, casual accusations of bigotry for anyone who feels the same.
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:31 PM
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the very calculated and pointed showing of disrespect.
If you can't be dissuaded from your certainty that it was disrespect rather than the precise opposite, then this discussion cannot be resolved. There really are those of us who think honestly recognizing our country's faults and wanting to fix them is more patriotic than coerced acts of jingoistic ritualism. You don't have to agree, but it would help you to say so.

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Do you really think I, or a lot of the others who don't like CK's kneeling, would have approved of it if it had been Peyton Manning?
A white man would not have had reason to do it, would he? Do you really think you know Kaepernick's reasons? The fact that you're asking that question indicates that you do not.

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I just don't like it, and I'm trying to illustrate why.
Yet you won't tell us what he could have done that you would approve of. Perhaps you just don't like being shown that we need to do better, that we need more commitment from our citizens than going through the ritual motions and calling that patriotism?

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I am far more offended by the snide, casual accusations of bigotry for anyone who feels the same.
You're offering only offense, not explanation. That's an avoidance tactic.

Last edited by ElvisL1ves; 07-16-2019 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:32 PM
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I'd really enjoy knowing how I feel.
Well you do seem to be comfortable telling everyone else how they are supposed to feel. Don't you think that everyone has a right to be patriotic in the way that is most meaningful to them? Doesn't everyone deserve that freedom, or is it appropriate in America to force everyone to express their love of country in only the way that you expect and/or demand?
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:40 PM
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A white man would not have had reason to do it, would he?
To add: Unless he was woke, and Peyton Manning, for all of his aw-shucks-iness, is not known for that.
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:52 PM
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Well you do seem to be comfortable telling everyone else how they are supposed to feel. Don't you think that everyone has a right to be patriotic in the way that is most meaningful to them? Doesn't everyone deserve that freedom, or is it appropriate in America to force everyone to express their love of country in only the way that you expect and/or demand?
I have told people how they should feel? I haven't told anyone they must do, say, or feel anything, except that they shouldn't be making the unwarranted assumption that anyone who takes offense at Kaepernick's actions is only doing so because he's black.
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:56 PM
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I have told people how they should feel? I haven't told anyone they must do, say, or feel anything, except that they shouldn't be making the unwarranted assumption that anyone who takes offense at Kaepernick's actions is only doing so because he's black.
You were pretty descriptive of your feelings about your expectations for proper flag respect and I didn't see any room for disagreement, or allowance for other forms of patriotism. You certainly have the freedom of your feelings toward the flag, but its not in line with freedom to expect that everyone else must follow that.
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Old 07-16-2019, 02:25 PM
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If you can't be dissuaded from your certainty that it was disrespect rather than the precise opposite, then this discussion cannot be resolved. There really are those of us who think honestly recognizing our country's faults and wanting to fix them is more patriotic than coerced acts of jingoistic ritualism. You don't have to agree, but it would help you to say so.
I rather do think it's disrespect. I don't think he's unaware of the customs regarding the anthem. Refusing to participate by not standing would be a far less offensive way of showing dissent. Kneeling instead of standing is doing the exact opposite of established norms.

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A white man would not have had reason to do it, would he? Do you really think you know Kaepernick's reasons? The fact that you're asking that question indicates that you do not.
You're missing my point. My point is that there are people who have convinced themselves that the only reason for anyone to dislike it is because it's a black man doing it.

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Yet you won't tell us what he could have done that you would approve of. Perhaps you just don't like being shown that we need to do better, that we need more commitment from our citizens than going through the ritual motions and calling that patriotism?
Well, I don't pretend to have the solutions to effective activism, nor do I think I have to have those answers to point at something and say I don't like it. As for going through the ritual motions, I'm sure a lot of people do just that. When I, an atheist, go to a funeral, wedding, or any other thing where there's praying going on, I stand, sit, or bow my head when called to. I don't do it because I have any belief, but because I respect the fact that others around me do. It may be just a meaningless ritual to me, but I don't need to be an asshole to the people for whom it's not.

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You're offering only offense, not explanation. That's an avoidance tactic.
I don't know what it is you are trying to get at here. What do you think I'm avoiding?
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Old 07-16-2019, 02:31 PM
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I rather do think it's disrespect. I don't think he's unaware of the customs regarding the anthem. Refusing to participate by not standing would be a far less offensive way of showing dissent. Kneeling instead of standing is doing the exact opposite of established norms
Well it was after talking to a veteran that he started kneeling, because that veteran told him kneeling was *more* respectful. See your views on the flag and respect are not universal and its frankly the opposite of freedom that you insist that it is.
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