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  #501  
Old 12-21-2014, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
So now all protestors against police violence are guilty of murdering these two cops?
The protesters are the ones chanting "death to cops" and, as Terr's just cited "pigs in blankets". Despite all the claims of police brutality and racism, I've seen nothing comparable to that from them.

But hey, you carry on supporting criminals and their enablers instead of the police who are trying to stop them, and getting murdered for doing so. Actually murdered, not killed in self defence or by accident. This incident has just made it clear that those criticising the police don't have a leg to stand on, and that claims that the police aren't at any real risk, and are overreacting, are utter bullshit.
  #502  
Old 12-21-2014, 01:30 PM
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Perhaps if we made guns less commonly available? Just throwin' that out there, a thought.

Aside from your normal anti-gun bullshit, should we ban knives as well? Might have kept the woman in Aus from stabbing 8 kids to death, or the spate of stabbings in China.

Whats next baseball bats and rolling pins?
  #503  
Old 12-21-2014, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Steophan View Post
The protesters are the ones chanting "death to cops" and, as Terr's just cited "pigs in blankets". Despite all the claims of police brutality and racism, I've seen nothing comparable to that from them.
You mean other than actually killing people?
  #504  
Old 12-21-2014, 01:32 PM
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Back to our regularly scheduled programming:

Sheriff deputy caught on tape beating a man. Tries to cover it up. Fails.
  #505  
Old 12-21-2014, 01:34 PM
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Aside from your normal anti-gun bullshit, should we ban knives as well? Might have kept the woman in Aus from stabbing 8 kids to death, or the spate of stabbings in China.

Whats next baseball bats and rolling pins?
Wait, my mind is blown. Baseball bats and rolling pins... you're right. Your novel, clever genius-level analogy has convinced me. I've never heard anyone say anything remotely like this!

Sheer genius. Incredible. I've done a 180 on this topic because of your insight.
  #506  
Old 12-21-2014, 01:39 PM
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Glad you saw through the hypocrisy.
  #507  
Old 12-21-2014, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Steophan View Post
The protesters are the ones chanting "death to cops" and, as Terr's just cited "pigs in blankets". Despite all the claims of police brutality and racism, I've seen nothing comparable to that from them.
Most of the protesters aren't doing this.

Quote:
But hey, you carry on supporting criminals and their enablers instead of the police who are trying to stop them, and getting murdered for doing so. Actually murdered, not killed in self defence or by accident. This incident has just made it clear that those criticising the police don't have a leg to stand on, and that claims that the police aren't at any real risk, and are overreacting, are utter bullshit.
No, I'll just support the protesters and those seeking justice, not any small group that's murdering or calling for violence.
  #508  
Old 12-21-2014, 01:47 PM
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You mean other than actually killing people?
Yes. I've never seen any policeman saying that they should kill people, just that they have to sometimes. Sometimes, it's necessary for the police to kill in self defence, or it's an unfortunate side effect of subduing someone - such as in the Garner case. However, it's never necessary, or even permissible, for someone to kill (or use any force) against a police officer who's doing their job.

The scum calling for, and celebrating, the death of cops really should realise that the only reason they're able to do that, to "protest", is because they're in a well policed society ruled by law. In an actual police state, the protests would be shut down, and reporting on them would be prevented. Ironically, the very existence of the protests proves they're not necessary.
  #509  
Old 12-21-2014, 01:56 PM
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Ironically, the very existence of the protests proves they're not necessary.
LOL. Right. Protests are never necessary, and all the protests are about a "police state". Way to live in the real world!
  #510  
Old 12-21-2014, 02:05 PM
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Yes. I've never seen any policeman saying that they should kill people, just that they have to sometimes. Sometimes, it's necessary for the police to kill in self defence, or it's an unfortunate side effect of subduing someone - such as in the Garner case. However, it's never necessary, or even permissible, for someone to kill (or use any force) against a police officer who's doing their job.
I agree, Garner should have been much more calm while he was choking to death.

Insanity.

Last edited by orcenio; 12-21-2014 at 02:05 PM.
  #511  
Old 12-21-2014, 02:08 PM
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Wait, my mind is blown. Baseball bats and rolling pins... you're right. Your novel, clever genius-level analogy has convinced me. I've never heard anyone say anything remotely like this!

Sheer genius. Incredible. I've done a 180 on this topic because of your insight.
You think you're convinced? I've done a total 360!
  #512  
Old 12-21-2014, 02:19 PM
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Wow, never knew that! Barada nikto means "is a moron".
  #513  
Old 12-21-2014, 02:42 PM
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...Ironically, the very existence of the protests proves they're not necessary.
More ironically, the day you find out how necessary they can be, it will be too late.
  #514  
Old 12-21-2014, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Steophan
Yes. I've never seen any policeman saying that they should kill people, just that they have to sometimes.
By and large, the question of whether or not anything "has" to be done is largely a matter of opinion. Do you "have" to go to work tomorrow? Do you "have" to follow your doctor's advice? While there may be consequences for choosing not to, one still always has a choice. Recent events, as well as official statistics, indicate that the choice of whether or not to kill a citizen is one which many American cops are either too paranoid, too ill-trained, or just too stupid to be trusted to make. Nine times out of 10 these cops are not forced to kill. They choose to kill and they choose wrong.

In 2012, cops in England and Wales shot to death a grand total of two people. In 2013 they managed to go the entire year without shooting and killing anyone at all. This year the casualty figure is one. Know how many citizens American cops have shot and killed this year? About 450. These are the kind of numbers I'd associate with Colombia or South Africa. At this rate it will take UK cops about five hundred years to kill as many citizens as US cops killed in the last eleven months.

By now, the problem is obvious. American cops just think differently to cops pretty much anywhere else in the Western world. In America, it seems that if a citizen does anything that a cop could possibly construe as even being remotely threatening the lethal force card immediately becomes a viable card to play. Cops in other countries simply don't think like this. In England, for example, cops are expected to refrain from shooting civilians unless they have quite literally no other choice in the world, and if they break that rule then heads fucking roll. The only way to effect meaningful change is to force American cops to change their mindsets so that they learn to behave more like cops in other civilised nations. Either take their guns, or fire those with poor disciplinary records, or change the way they are trained, or all of the above and then some.

Will this will result in higher casualties among police? If the figures from other countries are anything to go by, probably not. But even if it does, so be it. Given the choice between saving a few cops and saving a few hundred civilians, I'll go with the civilians.
  #515  
Old 12-21-2014, 03:34 PM
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So now all protestors against police violence are guilty of murdering these two cops?
According to the NYC police union, that's pretty much the case.
Quote:
Patrick Lynch, the head of the Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association agreed with the sentiment: “That blood on the hands starts on the steps of City Hall in the office of the mayor.” He then said that “those who incited violence on the street under the guise of protest that tried to tear down what NYC police officers did every day” are also to blame for the killings.
  #516  
Old 12-21-2014, 03:52 PM
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nm

Last edited by D'Anconia; 12-21-2014 at 03:53 PM. Reason: duplicate
  #517  
Old 12-21-2014, 03:53 PM
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According to the NYC police union, that's pretty much the case.
Patrick Lynch is a reprehensible asshole, tho. It is both his job and IMO his pleasure to takes great offense to anything even remotely critical of police officers and/or their actions. His usual response is to paint the "cops vs. everyone" line even broader so that it includes not just the object of his ire but anyone even tangentially related. IMO he also has Cheney-like blinders on with regards to police and is prone to blame the victim; for instance:
Quote:
Lynch maintains that Officer Daniel Pantaleo used a legal “takedown maneuver,” not a choke hold. And while some have held Garner up as a martyr, Lynch says that he “died from a number of bad life choices,” including selling cigarettes (Garner was an obese asthmatic with cardiovascular disease).

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 12-21-2014 at 03:54 PM. Reason: fixed coding
  #518  
Old 12-21-2014, 04:01 PM
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Cite?
Sure, from one of the Ferguson threads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobLibDem
There is also the option of getting in the car, locking the door, and calling for backup.
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...postcount=2119

There were other, similar posts.
  #519  
Old 12-21-2014, 04:08 PM
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The Police Union, they are on the forefront of cleaning out corrupt and violent cops? Found them both, did they?

Not like the teacher's unions, always protecting the incompetent and poorly trained. Everybody knows what unions are like. Except this one, because, well, they're cops.
  #520  
Old 12-21-2014, 04:21 PM
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The Police Union, they are on the forefront of cleaning out corrupt and violent cops? Found them both, did they?

Not like the teacher's unions, always protecting the incompetent and poorly trained. Everybody knows what unions are like. Except this one, because, well, they're cops.
Keyboard Kommandos never want to blow teachers.
  #521  
Old 12-21-2014, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
Sure, from one of the Ferguson threads.

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Originally Posted by BobLibDem View Post
I agree a cop shouldn't have to be in grappling range. There is also the option of getting in the car, locking the door, and calling for backup.
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...postcount=2119

There were other, similar posts.
The post you cited doesn't say what you said people said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
Not necessarily in this thread, but posters in recent threads have said that if the police encounter violent offenders, they should retreat to a safe distance, and call a supervisor.
People (like you) who lie in the pursuit of supporting police actions that have helped cause the problems we have.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 12-21-2014 at 05:34 PM. Reason: :()
  #522  
Old 12-21-2014, 05:52 PM
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The officer was arrested and charged with a felony. I'd say the SFPD was doing it right.
  #523  
Old 12-21-2014, 06:18 PM
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Wait, my mind is blown. Baseball bats and rolling pins...
Why the scoffing? Liberals just love to ignore history. I bet you didn't know Lyudmila Pavlichenko had 309 confirmed kills with a rolling pin. They don't teach that in school anymore.
  #524  
Old 12-21-2014, 06:42 PM
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Only people who knew where to find potatoes. Latvia sad.
  #525  
Old 12-21-2014, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
The post you cited doesn't say what you said people said.
Yes, it did.

Although Bob said calling for "backup" and not "a supervisor", there was a post, probably in the Garner thread, that said that an officer should contact a supervisor before making any arrest.

Even you can see that's just not feasible.
  #526  
Old 12-21-2014, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
Yes, it did.
No, it didn't. In fact, in your next sentence you admit it did not say what you were challenged on:
Quote:
Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
Although Bob said calling for "backup" and not "a supervisor", there was a post, probably in the Garner thread, that said that an officer should contact a supervisor before making any arrest.

Even you can see that's just not feasible.
If there was a post that backs up your assertion, cite it. Otherwise we'll just assume that you are making shit up.
  #527  
Old 12-21-2014, 11:44 PM
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If there was a post that backs up your assertion, cite it.
Right here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii
Is it that bad if they wait longer, perhaps calling for a supervisor? What would be wrong with these options?

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...&postcount=345

So far, we've had a poster calling for law enforcement to run away and hide in their police car when encountering a violent offender, and another poster calling for the police to contact a supervisor before effecting a lawful traffic stop.
  #528  
Old 12-22-2014, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
Right here.




http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...&postcount=345

So far, we've had a poster calling for law enforcement to run away and hide in their police car when encountering a violent offender, and another poster calling for the police to contact a supervisor before effecting a lawful traffic stop.
No, we don't have posters calling for those things. We have posters offering options and leaving them open to rebuttal.

You, meanwhile, come in here and bluster and mischaracterize what others say, making yourself look like a fool and thereby discouraging anyone from taking what you say seriously.

You're a fool with a fool's agenda, it seems.

But let's see how deep that goes: are you saying that an officer should place himself or herself in harm's way when encountering a violent person?

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 12-22-2014 at 12:33 AM. Reason: s
  #529  
Old 12-22-2014, 01:37 PM
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Are these charges true?
Just saw the reference to this on the The Daily Show, searched for this in Tamir Rice shooting in Cleveland.

I can't even believe it.
Quote:
The two Cleveland police officers who killed 12-year-old Tamir Rice did not administer first aid after they shot him down, according to Cleveland officials.

It took almost four minutes before a detective and an FBI agent arrived on the scene and administered first aid on the boy, who was eventually rushed to hospital where he died of his injuries, local station WEWS‑TV reported.
Neither Officer attempted first aid.

The officer who shot Rice was judged unfit for duty by a suburban police department in 2012

Cleveland Police never checked with Independence PD. If they had, they would have learned this:

Quote:
CLEVELAND, Ohio — The Cleveland police officer who shot and killed 12-year-old Tamir Rice had issues with handling guns during his brief tenure with a suburban police department.

A Nov. 29, 2012 letter contained in Tim Loehmann's personnel file from the Independence Police Department says that during firearms qualification training he was "distracted" and "weepy."

"He could not follow simple directions, could not communicate clear thoughts nor recollections, and his handgun performance was dismal," according to the letter written by Deputy Chief Jim Polak of the Independence police.

The letter recommended that the department part ways with Loehmann, who went on to become a police officer with the Cleveland Division of Police.

"I do not believe time, nor training, will be able to change or correct the deficiencies," Polak said.
Quote:
In an interview with the Northeast Ohio Media Group, Loehmann's father said that his son left Independence to pursue a job with Cleveland police because he wanted "more action."
Bolding mine. Because it scares me.

Quote:
A Department of Justice investigation, which didn't look at the Rice shooting, found Cleveland police officers used excessive deadly force, including shootings and head strikes with impact weapons; unnecessary, excessive, and retaliatory force, including Tasers, chemical sprays, and their fists; and excessive force against people with mental illness or in crisis, including one situation in which officers were called exclusively to check up on someone's welfare.

Police officers also used "poor and dangerous tactics" that often put them "in situations where avoidable force becomes inevitable and places officers and civilians at unnecessary risk," according to the report.
  #530  
Old 12-22-2014, 08:54 PM
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Bolding mine. Because it scares me.
Here's what scares me.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/tim-loeh...cops-dad-says/

Quote:
The police department is investigating the officer's use of deadly force, and the county prosecutor has said the case will be presented to a grand jury to decide whether any charges are merited.

Loehmann has returned to work from administrative leave, but is not back on patrol.
Not only is it unlikely this guy will be charged with a crime (given what we know about GJs and the police), but this colossal fuck up is probably going to hold on to his badge, gun, and nice lil pension too.

Merry fucking Christmas, Cleveland!
  #531  
Old 12-22-2014, 09:19 PM
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Merry fucking Christmas, Cleveland!
It's absolutely maddening that people can direct all their rage and sanctimony on the crazed shooter who took out those two NYPD cops, and yet be completely nonchalant about this blatant injustice.
  #532  
Old 12-22-2014, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by you with the face View Post
Here's what scares me.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/tim-loeh...cops-dad-says/



Not only is it unlikely this guy will be charged with a crime (given what we know about GJs and the police), but this colossal fuck up is probably going to hold on to his badge, gun, and nice lil pension too.

Merry fucking Christmas, Cleveland!
This guy belongs nowhere NEAR firearms. Of course, we'll hear nothing but silence from Smapti, et al.
  #533  
Old 12-22-2014, 11:35 PM
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No, we don't have posters calling for those things. We have posters offering options and leaving them open to rebuttal.
That's not how policing works in the real world. They're not in a position to seek opinions and consider rebuttals (from people on message boards, no less).
  #534  
Old 12-23-2014, 12:31 AM
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That's not how policing works in the real world. They're not in a position to seek opinions and consider rebuttals (from people on message boards, no less).
Holy fuck you're stupid.
  #535  
Old 12-23-2014, 12:50 AM
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You're the one who deliberately mischaracterizes Supreme Court rulings in Great Debates.

Why such blatant lying is allowed in a forum called Great Debates, I'll never know.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...7&postcount=44
  #536  
Old 12-23-2014, 12:59 AM
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I doubt if I've ever expressed an opinion in GD that no one would call a lie. Such an opinion would have to be innocuous and devoid of consequence.

Last edited by elucidator; 12-23-2014 at 01:00 AM.
  #537  
Old 12-23-2014, 01:07 AM
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Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
You're the one who deliberately mischaracterizes Supreme Court rulings in Great Debates.

Why such blatant lying is allowed in a forum called Great Debates, I'll never know.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...7&postcount=44
You don't read OR argue well. It's almost painful to watch you be this dumb.
  #538  
Old 12-23-2014, 07:15 AM
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Police officers also used "poor and dangerous tactics" that often put them "in situations where avoidable force becomes inevitable and places officers and civilians at unnecessary risk," according to the report.
I've often wondered how US police get themselves in such confrontational situations, and have always assumed it was poor training or application.

This thread has caused me to reconsider; it really does seem - for whatever reasons - US police sometimes invite confrontation, perhaps even seek it.

That might be to do with poor initial screening of personality types, maybe the stress of the job, probably more likely the macho culture of the workplace ... it's pretty crazy to have got to this point, espeically when guns are so often used and forgiven.
  #539  
Old 12-23-2014, 08:00 AM
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... it's pretty crazy to have got to this point, espeically when guns are so often used and forgiven.
It's gotten to this point because guns are so often used and forgiven.

If cops feared losing their jobs and going to jail as much as they feared looking like weaklings who are too nice to harass and bully people, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
  #540  
Old 12-23-2014, 11:01 AM
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Fox affiliated news program falsely reports protestors chanted "kill a cop"
Quote:
What you are hearing there is a protester in Washington, D.C. shout the following chant:

We can't stop!

We won't stop!

'til killer cops are in cell blocks!

Not a particularly provocative chant, all things considered: protesters are announcing their intention to continue organizing until murderous police officers are put in jail. Fair enough!

That is, until Baltimore's local FOX affiliate got their hands on this video. Here's their interpretation of it:

We can't stop!

We won't stop!

So kill a cop!

By cutting away from the video mid-chant, FOX's segment paints protestors as explicitly calling for the murder of police. They've depicted a non-violent protest about accountability for police brutality as a bloodthirsty mob.
http://gawker.com/slimy-baltimore-fo...ium=socialflow
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  #541  
Old 12-23-2014, 12:06 PM
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How do our locals police apologists feel about civil forfeiture abuse? John Oliver had a bit on it awhile back. It still disproportionately affects minorities, but the legal system will take whatever they think they can get away with
and is on their "wish list". Texas (where I live) is listed as one of the worst as apparently you have prove your property is innocent or the cops get to sell it and buy margarita machines. It started out as supposedly a weapon in the "War on Drugs" but again, cops with too much power and not enough oversight left it ripe for abuse.

Nobody gets killed but cops are allowed to take your shit basically just because. And they don't give it back. You don't even have to be arrested, much less tried or convicted.
  #542  
Old 12-23-2014, 11:20 PM
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Did we already talk about 16 year old Kimani Gray and the alleged-gun planting cops from the 67th Precinct (East Flatbush, Brooklyn, NYC)?
Quote:
According to the NYPD, 11 bullets were fired. Seven were later recovered from Gray's body, with three having entered through his back. By the department's account, Mourad and Cordova approached Gray after they saw him adjusting his waistband, and the teenager allegedly pointed the .38 at them when he was confronted. Witnesses say he had nothing in his hands.

"He was running for his life, telling the cops 'stop,'" Camille Johnson told reporters with local TV station PIX 11 following the shooting. "They really are, seriously, walking around, shooting little kids."

In an interview, Tishana King—who has spoken with the press in the past about what she saw that night—recalled that, after the shooting, one of the officers threw a tantrum. "He was like, 'Oh my God, oh my God!'" she said. "He looked really distressed and then his partner came over, put his hand around his shoulder, and said, 'Calm down, calm down.' And then said something into his ear."

In Tishana's version of events, it's this cop, the one doing the shooting, that takes charge from here on out. "He had his gun pointin' up at the windows while my head was out. He said, 'Put your fucking head back in the window before I fucking shoot you.'
But what about the gun?

Quote:
Tishana later shot video of the crime scene from her window overlooking the block where it took place using her cellphone. Filmed about five minutes after the bullets were fired, it indicates that police arriving in droves to the scene were looking for something. The video shows multiple officers scouring the ground near Gray with their flashlights. At no point do the officers appear to be offering him any form of medical assistance. What were they after? (King has provided this video, the existence of which has not previously been reported, to the complainants in the civil trial.)

Montgomery, the lawyer, thinks they were looking for the gun. "What else could they be doing milling about while a child lay dying on the ground?" he wonders.

The only publically available photo of the .38 was taken while the gun appeared to be in a box, not at the crime scene.
Quote:
No crime scene photo of the gun—a weapon that, according to Gun Digest, has not been manufactured in the United States since 1986—was ever released.
  #543  
Old 12-23-2014, 11:31 PM
get lives is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KAndre View Post
How do our locals police apologists feel about civil forfeiture abuse? John Oliver had a bit on it awhile back. It still disproportionately affects minorities, but the legal system will take whatever they think they can get away with
and is on their "wish list". Texas (where I live) is listed as one of the worst as apparently you have prove your property is innocent or the cops get to sell it and buy margarita machines. It started out as supposedly a weapon in the "War on Drugs" but again, cops with too much power and not enough oversight left it ripe for abuse.

Nobody gets killed but cops are allowed to take your shit basically just because. And they don't give it back. You don't even have to be arrested, much less tried or convicted.
Yet another thing these cop apologists will say nothing about.
  #544  
Old 12-23-2014, 11:36 PM
Terr is offline
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Originally Posted by get lives View Post
Yet another thing these cop apologists will say nothing about.
I support the recent no-true-bill decisions in cop shootings - that is, I can see how the juries may have decided there was no probable cause. I also think the "war on drugs" is hugely stupid, counterproductive, and corrupting, and RICO civil forfeiture laws are a travesty and a blight on the justice system in the US. Figure that out.

Last edited by Terr; 12-23-2014 at 11:37 PM.
  #545  
Old 12-24-2014, 02:38 AM
elucidator is offline
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...Figure that out.
(Post shortened for brevity)

We've had a beneficial effect on you, but the work is far from complete.
  #547  
Old 12-24-2014, 04:23 AM
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It was a black 18 year old man named Antonio Martin. Supposedly armed, but it's not like the cops there have much credibility anymore. Protests have already started.

Last edited by Der Trihs; 12-24-2014 at 04:23 AM.
  #548  
Old 12-24-2014, 04:37 AM
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Protests have started about the police shooting a guy that was pointing a gun at them? Fucking morons.
  #549  
Old 12-24-2014, 04:44 AM
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What do the protesters want cops to do exactly, when a gun was pointed at the cops?
  #550  
Old 12-24-2014, 04:51 AM
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What do the protesters want cops to do exactly, when a gun was pointed at the cops?
What makes you think they believe the cops when they say the guy had a gun?
Reply

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