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  #601  
Old 05-17-2019, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by cmkeller View Post
Israel is not uniquely exempt from criticism on that basis. The issue I have is that Israel is uniquely singled out for criticism on this basis. Israel should at least be as exempt from it as other countries are.
Israel is NOT uniquely singled out anymore than Japan is uniquely singled out for its attempt to build an empire. That doesn't mean it can't show some examples of hypocrisy -- they can. But hypocrisy doesn't change the fact that people have been displaced because of their desire to have a nation, and people are understandably upset by it.
  #602  
Old 05-17-2019, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by clairobscur View Post
Of course you don't have an issue with me criticizing the UK. You never have an issue with putting blame on a group or on members of a group that you have categorized as oppressors. What you have consistently an issue with is putting the blame for anything, criticizing in any way, or disputing the claims for any reason of a group that you have categorized as oppressed.



The problem arises when you have two oppressed groups, with competing claims, at which point you play favorite, and deny that the oppressed group you favor most could be wrong in any way while skilfully avoiding to say that the oppressed group you favor less isn't right, and trying to deflect the blame entirely towards an oppressor group passing by.



I'm sure that you'll be willing to say that a 1920 Palestinian Arab had good reasons to feel wronged. But only as long as the 1920 Jewish immigrant will be kept exempt of any kind of criticism, and the blame will be entirely put on the shoulder of some 1920 British official.







The British government didn't force Jews to emigrate to Palestine. And it didn't come up suddenly with the idea of establishing a Jewish homeland in Palestine and proposed it to Jews, who then answered : "It never occured to us, but what a great idea!". Jews tried hard to establish this homeland. You can't blame solely the British as if Zionists had absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with what happened, and no responsibility altogether for what happened.



And you keep presenting them solely as helpless and desperate victims forced by the circumstances. Ignoring that, besides fear, they were, like other Europeans of this era, motivated by nationalism and the idea that as a people, they were entitled to a homeland. And that, like other Europeans of this era, they couldn't give a shit about the colonized populations.
None of this really addresses our challenges anything I wrote, so I'll leave it alone. I don't think I've criticized the Palestinians as a group in this entire thread.
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  #603  
Old 05-17-2019, 01:29 PM
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All the Semitic peoples were similarly othered at the time by a large percentage of the population of Europe and of North America. Jews and Arabs alike were seen by many as swarthy, hook-nosed (despite the presence of significant numbers of both groups who were neither), members of non-Christian and therefore suspicious religions, members of outsider cultures.

Would it have been better to hand over a chunk of Germany, instead of a chunk of Palestine, in order to create a Jewish state? That's certainly arguable. Did that have the remotest chance of happening? No, it did not. Was the reason that it had no chance of happening due to an attitude that European countries had rights which Middle Eastern, African, and many other countries in the world had not? Yes, it was. Was that reason based on bigotry? Yes, it was.

But the problem wasn't bigotry of one Semitic people against another. There was certainly some of that, in both directions; but that wasn't why Jews weren't offered part of Germany. We weren't offered part of Germany because most Europeans were much happier with the idea of dumping one othered people on top of another othered people than with the idea that a European country should be dismantled for that purpose. (Not that European countries didn't dismantle other European countries. But they handed out the chunks to each other; not to people they thought of as not really belonging there at all.)

Some seem to think it's obvious that a choice about safety would have led to moving to the USA or Canada. They're forgetting, or never learned, that the reason there were so many Jews in Germany in the first place was that for quite a few years before the 1930's Germany had been one of the best, and safest, places in the world to be Jewish. Why should people who had just had Germany betray them in that fashion have assumed that Canada or the USA wouldn't do likewise? It's not as if there were no antisemitism in those countries at the time. There was quite a bit of it. Here's just one example, from 1939: possibly one of the last things some of the survivors had heard from the USA before they got shipped off to camps.

Does that mean that everything Israel does now is perfectly fine? Of course it doesn't; and I don't believe anybody in this thread has said so. And it seems to me that most in the thread, me included, have defended Omar and Tlaib. But to the extent that the issue of how much of what happens in 2019 should be informed by what happened in the 1940's (a standard for existence of a nation that, like others, I note nobody else seems to be held to): I don't think it's useful to consider what happened in the 1940's as if Jews living in Europe at the time were considered just the same as all other people living in Europe. If they had been, we'd never have had the Holocaust in the first place.
  #604  
Old 05-17-2019, 01:56 PM
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Some seem to think it's obvious that a choice about safety would have led to moving to the USA or Canada. They're forgetting, or never learned, that the reason there were so many Jews in Germany in the first place was that for quite a few years before the 1930's Germany had been one of the best, and safest, places in the world to be Jewish. Why should people who had just had Germany betray them in that fashion have assumed that Canada or the USA wouldn't do likewise? It's not as if there were no antisemitism in those countries at the time. There was quite a bit of it. Here's just one example, from 1939: possibly one of the last things some of the survivors had heard from the USA before they got shipped off to camps.
Canada was no better with its "None is too many" policy towards Jewish immigrants under the William Lyon MacKenzie King administration of 1935-1948.
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  #605  
Old 05-17-2019, 03:51 PM
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I am really starting to think that Isreal is using America as its attack dog to go after its enemies. They might be behind the latest thing of the US going after Iran, who is a country supporting hamas.
  #606  
Old 05-17-2019, 04:58 PM
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Iran backs al-Qaeda and the Talibans????

Ok, maybe I'm not up to date, but Iran was the first country to actively fight the Talibans and provide support to the Afghan opposition when the USA, for instance, was all too happy to let Pakistan give them support. It was the only country concerned about them and doing something about them when everybody else was ignoring them (that is, until 9/11).

If Iran now supports the Talibans and Al Qaeda, then it's a 180 turn in their policies.
Yeah politics can do this.

Right before 9/11 Iran and the Afghan taliban were at odds and Iran was considering invading. Only Iran has had a poor history of waging war. Look at the 10 year war with Iraq that accomplished nothing. Plus they knew the trouble the USSR had so they were reluctant to invade Afghanistan.

Then comes 9/11 and the Taliban is everyones enemy. Iran supports the US invasion and even offers its air bases.

Then the US wins, then goes into Iraq - taking out another enemy of Iran. But now they have US backed governments on both sides so they start giving aid to the Taliban.

Yes, things swing and change.
  #607  
Old 05-17-2019, 05:19 PM
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I am really starting to think that Isreal is using America as its attack dog to go after its enemies. They might be behind the latest thing of the US going after Iran, who is a country supporting hamas.
Israel. Not "Isreal."

Could you - without looking anything up on the internet beforehand - explain what exactly it is that America is doing right at the present moment to "go after Iran"?
  #608  
Old 05-17-2019, 05:49 PM
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Why just next door, the British set up a Saudi prince as absolute monarch of his own newly-minted country full of natives who were never consulted about who would rule over them.
Hashemite prince. My apologies cmkeller, it was just making my nose twitch . The Hashemite kingdoms of Jordan and Iraq were client states. Saudi Arabia is a conquest state.
  #609  
Old 05-18-2019, 12:02 AM
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I really don't think the lingering injustices and grievances that Palestinians feel over the creation of Israel is a productive area of discussion.

I think our focusing on past grievances only serve to distract from arguing about any current, real, pressing, and compounding problems. For example, daily life for Palestinians (in both Gaza and the West Bank) is very, very difficult and show no signs of changing for the better. As neutral outsiders, shouldn't the improvement of people's lives be our shared goal/focal point? Why waste time grinding axes on settled, non-issues like the creation of Israel? Are we going to go back in time and UN-create Israel? So why even bother. Focus on the compounding issues of suffering right now.

You'll have plenty of time to argue about WHO started the fire AFTER its extinguished, otherwise you're just masturbating while Rome burns.
  #610  
Old 05-18-2019, 12:47 AM
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Yeah politics can do this.

Right before 9/11 Iran and the Afghan taliban were at odds and Iran was considering invading. Only Iran has had a poor history of waging war. Look at the 10 year war with Iraq that accomplished nothing. Plus they knew the trouble the USSR had so they were reluctant to invade Afghanistan.

Then comes 9/11 and the Taliban is everyones enemy. Iran supports the US invasion and even offers its air bases.

Then the US wins, then goes into Iraq - taking out another enemy of Iran. But now they have US backed governments on both sides so they start giving aid to the Taliban.

Yes, things swing and change.
Minor quibble, but AFAIK, Iran supports Hezbollah, not necessarily Hamas, PLO/PA, or Islamic Jihad. I know it can be difficult to keep track of them all, but for accuracy's sake...
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Old 05-18-2019, 01:04 AM
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Minor quibble, but AFAIK, Iran supports Hezbollah, not necessarily Hamas, PLO/PA, or Islamic Jihad. I know it can be difficult to keep track of them all, but for accuracy's sake...
Iran has traditionally been a backer of Islamic Jihad for reasons of ideology as well as simple anti-Israelism. PIJ is...peculiar, ideologically. They're Sunni activists who were very impressed by the Iranian revolution.

Hamas has intermittently received support from Iran, but there are a few more ideological barriers and some political differences there, particularly as regards Syria.

Rather similarly with the PLO, but with a somewhat different set of ideological/political barriers than Hamas. Closer relations were to be had before the rise to prominence of more radical groups like Hamas and PIJ.

Last edited by Tamerlane; 05-18-2019 at 01:08 AM.
  #612  
Old 05-18-2019, 01:09 AM
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QuickSilver and NAF,

I know you probably hate my ass, but I wanted to ask you a question in all seriousness and candor. In you experience, do Jews view themselves as a religion, or do you/they view themselves as a "race"? I think it's an important question that can maybe inform my own opinions.

I realize that I might dismiss the idea of Jews as a "race," but if Jews view themselves as a race, then maybe what I think has to be, well, modified in a sense. I'm sorry to be bugging you with bizarro questions late at night.

I know I use the term "Zionists" a lot. In my mind, there is a distinction between "Zionist" and "Jew" but if you could explain to me why there isn't a distinction, I will absolutely consider it. I promise. I'm not anti-Jew, I promise.

Maybe there's something I'm not understanding.
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Old 05-18-2019, 01:13 AM
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You all know I'm crazy anyway, so you probably don't have to take me that seriously.
  #614  
Old 05-18-2019, 09:27 AM
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QuickSilver and NAF,

I know you probably hate my ass, but I wanted to ask you a question in all seriousness and candor. In you experience, do Jews view themselves as a religion, or do you/they view themselves as a "race"? I think it's an important question that can maybe inform my own opinions.

I realize that I might dismiss the idea of Jews as a "race," but if Jews view themselves as a race, then maybe what I think has to be, well, modified in a sense. I'm sorry to be bugging you with bizarro questions late at night.

I know I use the term "Zionists" a lot. In my mind, there is a distinction between "Zionist" and "Jew" but if you could explain to me why there isn't a distinction, I will absolutely consider it. I promise. I'm not anti-Jew, I promise.

Maybe there's something I'm not understanding.
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You all know I'm crazy anyway, so you probably don't have to take me that seriously.
I appreciate your willingness to reconsider your position and your offer to talk and listen in good faith.

I'm in no position to speak on behalf of all (any?) Jews. Not sure any one Jewish person is. Jews, like any other faith based group, are not monolithic and everyone sees it slightly differently. Some, like me, are atheists and are Jews by birth and heritage rather than religious affiliation.

But to answer your question whether being Jewish is a race or a religion... I think most would agree it's neither and would more likely describe it as a ethnicity or culture based on deep historic roots.

Not sure if that satisfactorily answers your question. I know others here may be more qualified to provide you with a better explanation.
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Last edited by QuickSilver; 05-18-2019 at 09:29 AM.
  #615  
Old 05-18-2019, 10:16 AM
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QuickSilver and NAF,

I know you probably hate my ass, but I wanted to ask you a question in all seriousness and candor. In you experience, do Jews view themselves as a religion, or do you/they view themselves as a "race"? I think it's an important question that can maybe inform my own opinions.

I realize that I might dismiss the idea of Jews as a "race," but if Jews view themselves as a race, then maybe what I think has to be, well, modified in a sense. I'm sorry to be bugging you with bizarro questions late at night.

I know I use the term "Zionists" a lot. In my mind, there is a distinction between "Zionist" and "Jew" but if you could explain to me why there isn't a distinction, I will absolutely consider it. I promise. I'm not anti-Jew, I promise.

Maybe there's something I'm not understanding.
I really don't hate you, first. I strongly dislike the way you use Zionist and I don't think you always think before you post. But I wouldn't even say I dislike you. You're passionate, I get it.

I don't think Jews are a race per se. But calling us a religion is wrong as well. We are a people. A people who happen to practice a particular religion, but the religion isn't fundamental to the personhood. Imagine that there were a lot of people in Greece who still actively worshiped the Greek Gods, say 90% of the population. Well, those people are Greek. And those Greeks happen to workship a Greek religion. But, take away the religion, they are still Greek. Now, imagine that, say in Roman times, Greece was overthrown but that the Greek people were driven out of Greece and persecuted for a couple thousand years. That's more or less the story of my people.

Want to make it less Eurocentric and theoretical, look at the Navajo.

So, for a thousand years or so we got scattered and remarkably held on to what it is that connects us as a people. But, for reasons that I really don't understand, people everywhere flipping hate us. Like, the shoa was a bright shining example, but something like every 50-60 years there is a rise in antisemitism...for centuries. Today. Still. So there are many who feel/felt that the fact that we are a nation without a country that is the cause of this problem. That having a country will mean safety. Does it? Probably not. Countries come with their own problems, ask the Germans. Heck, ask the socialist Israeli founders of Israel who have been shoved to the side by the right wing and ultra orthodox.

But, I know that the existence of Zionism saved a lot of members of my family. People who I know and love who would not exist or would have died before I was born without the existence of the Zionist movement. So for me it's not super theoretical.

But we have now gone far far from the topic. Judaism is in the words of Mordecai Kaplan "The evolving religious civilization of the Jewish people" For further reading on the subject see:

https://www.amazon.com/Judaism-Civil.../dp/1330267702
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Old 05-18-2019, 10:22 AM
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I really don't think the lingering injustices and grievances that Palestinians feel over the creation of Israel is a productive area of discussion.
Possibly not, but Netanyahu's persistent and repeated taking of Palestinian land within the West Bank and the addition and expansion of "settlements" does not fit cleanly into the realm of past history and "the creation of Israel."
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Old 05-18-2019, 10:44 AM
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I, whole-heartingly, agree. One only needs to look at the current land ownership issues plaguing South Africa (or Zimbabwe 15 years earlier) to see how this is setting up current, real, and long term problems that will not be easily solved for many generations. Its remarkably short-sighted policy.

Last edited by orcenio; 05-18-2019 at 10:47 AM.
  #618  
Old 05-18-2019, 10:52 AM
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QuickSilver and NAF, I appreciate your thoughtful posts and your mercy. We still disagree - sometimes passionately on these issues - but I will try to choose my words more carefully. I will drop Zionist as a broad-based reference and try to be more precise with my language.
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Old 05-18-2019, 10:56 AM
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QuickSilver and NAF, I appreciate your thoughtful posts and your mercy. We still disagree - sometimes passionately on these issues - but I will try to choose my words more carefully. I will drop Zionist as a broad-based reference and try to be more precise with my language.
Fair enough. I'll try to overlook your questionable choice of beer.
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  #620  
Old 05-18-2019, 11:02 AM
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"Three Jews, four opinions."

Here's mine: Not a race. A culture; or, more accurately, several cultures with a number of things in common (Ashkenazi and Sephardim primarily, but there are others.) Also a religion; but it's possible to be culturally Jewish without being religiously Jewish. And it's possible to identify as Jewish without being strongly culturally so.

And whether non-Jewish people in a given area at a given time identify Jews as a race is a different issue from whether the Jews do.

asahi: Why, in any case, would it make a difference to you? The boundary lines that societies distinguish between racial differences, plus what is and what isn't identified as a racial difference, change over time and from place to place. There is no clear line dividing racial, ethnic, and religious bigotries. At any given time some of them may be doing much more harm than others; but which ones are isn't a matter of whether they're classed, either now or during the time being discussed, as racial, religious, ethnic, or something else.


While we're at it: what do you mean by the word "Zionist"? Because it seems to me that you're using it to cover a really wide range of positions. There are people who are Zionist in the sense that they believe God gave a particular chunk of land to be a religious state of Israel, and that they're divinely appointed to claim all of that land. Such people exist. There are also people who believe (with some evidence) that Jews can't trust any government that Jews aren't in control of, and that the current state of Israel is the only hope of having such a state; they may not think God's got anything to do with it at all, and may want the state to be secular. And there are also people who think that a whole lot of things went wrong in the 1940's and maybe the political creation of a state of Israel was one of the things that went wrong, but it exists, it's existed for over seventy years, and it's full of people whose lives would be in serious danger if it disappeared; and therefore it shouldn't disappear.

-- there's three opinions; I'm sure there are dozens more. Come to think of it I'll throw in a couple more, not because they're particularly Jewish positions -- one of them rather the reverse -- but because you've been discussing USA government support for Israel: there are probably people in the USA government who think Israel needs to exist in order that God can then destroy the world, Jews included; and I'm sure there are people in the USA government who just want to support a relatively reliable and/or relatively democratic ally.
  #621  
Old 05-18-2019, 03:19 PM
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clairobscur:

If it was "my" country, I might have a right to have an issue with it, though of course if the government didn't agree with me, I'd be SOL in my wishes.
Indeed you would be. Especially if, like in this case, the "government" was a foreign government who took decisions without regard for your interests or preferences.



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I never said it wasn't a colonial enterprise.
Maybe you didn't, but a lot of other posters are totally opposed to qualifying it this way.


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But that was the order of the day back then. The idea of native self-government as a universal ideal is a new one on the world scene. World history is full of empires and conquests, displacements and annexations. The winners controlled the land and doled it out to whomever they wished. Israel is hardly the only modern country created in this way.
There are definitely a number of countries that have been build around and for an immigrant population at the expense of the natives. To begin with, all American countries. But :

- Not many as recently as Israel, at a time when pushing the locals to make room for immigrants was already considered a bad thing.

-In pretty much all other cases, there's no denial that the natives were wronged. In the case of Israel, there is such a denial.


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Why just next door, the British set up a Saudi prince as absolute monarch of his own newly-minted country full of natives who were never consulted about who would rule over them.
Yes, but again :

-There's a big difference between putting a guy in charge of the people and displacing said people.

-There's hardly anybody who argues in support of the Saudi princes. I'm pretty sure I could open ten threads condemning the Saudis, and not read a single post defending them.

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But there's no reasonable way, nor is there any international will, to somehow rewind the clock of history until we can somehow tie every clan since Cro-Magnon wanderings to the virgin territory it was the first to occupy [...] To single out Israel as the one exception to this rule, the one country whose existence is problematic because its presence was allowed by the most recent imperial/colonial power rather than by consultation of natives with no say over their political futures is not a valid line of reasoning.
And it so happens that I didn't say that.
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  #622  
Old 05-18-2019, 04:02 PM
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Maybe you didn't, but a lot of other posters are totally opposed to qualifying it this way.
I don't see people saying it wasn't a colonial enterprise. I see people saying that the decisions were made by the governments of European nations and the USA, not by the Jews; and that Jewish settlers at the time had no better options than to accept that one.

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-In pretty much all other cases, there's no denial that the natives were wronged. In the case of Israel, there is such a denial.
Who's denying it?

There might be somebody someplace denying it; but again, I don't see that in this thread.


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-There's hardly anybody who argues in support of the Saudi princes. I'm pretty sure I could open ten threads condemning the Saudis, and not read a single post defending them.
And yet, they're considered valued allies of the USA government; which supplies them with lots and lots of weapons.
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Old 05-18-2019, 04:09 PM
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Nobody has disputed this. It started well before WWII and it increased dramatically post WWII.
You were the one bringing up the UN.


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Israel is the most recent such example, but hardly unique in history.
Sure, but as I wrote above, what is unique is the refusal to acknowledge it. If I had been posting about the USA, or Rhodesia, or whatever, would it have occurred to you to argue about every detail in favor of the immigrants? And it's not like you're the only one. Israel is pretty much the only country for which you'll face such a denial.

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It's fair to criticize Israel on multiple fronts. It not fair to perpetuate a one sided view of that history.
Precisely, I agree. But I disagree abut the direction of this one sided view. At least on this board.

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Without a doubt, Palestinians got the short end of the stick in a deal which was imposed on them by their colonial rulers. I suppose that grievance must extend back to their Ottoman rulers as well as forward to their Israeli rulers. They are justified in their grievances.
Fine, then we're in agreement.

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So what are we talking about if we want to address those grievances? Dismantling of the state of Israel? Reparations? I know! How about a two state solution?
Acknowledging it would be a good first step. And reparations would be a good idea too. Especially since some of the people who were wronged (in particular who lost property in 1948) are still around.

Two states doesn't address grievances for the past. It just tries to address the situation in the present. But anyway, can you come up with a two states (or one, or three) "solution" that it going to receive the support of the majority of both the Palestinians and Israelis? There are many issues, but to take the first one : what status for Jerusalem will receive the support of both side?



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It makes it human. No different than any other migratory event in history. No more, no less.
I wrote that it was human. And indeed it's not different from a number of other migratory events. Except, once again, for the fact that there is a large number of people who say that it is, in fact, totally different, since in this case, the migrants were entirely justified, and the natives had absolutely no valid grievances.


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Wrong analogy. Your colonialist landlord is the one forcing you to share your home with a new family.
Quite similar in spirit. And if we go into the details, your analogy is equally wrong.

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Zionism predates WWII. Early immigrants, prior to the formal formation of the state of Israel, moved there in part for religious reasons and in part because of the persistent anti-semitic European history. Zionism, seems to me, was largely based on a premise that if Jews had their own homeland, they would at least be safe there. Also, generational religious teachings and texts lead them to believe Israel (Palestine) was their god granted homeland. Many, not just Jews, believe it to this day. History does not dispute this.
That Judaism was born in what is now Palestine is pretty much undisputed, indeed. But the idea that you have the right to get back what belonged to your ancestors 2500 years ago is pretty dubious. Talk about rewinding history. Anyway, Zionism wasn't a very religious movement, to say the least.

The part about being safe was certainly important, but I think that nationalism, which was in full steam at the time in Europe, played a big part. Especially since at the time when Zionism was born, a lot of European Jews were quite optimistic wrt the possibility to integrate in western societies that were becoming more and more liberal and more and more tolerant. Not even them envisioned that such a thing as Nazism could happen in western Europe.


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It's not as simple as Jews capriciously deciding one day that moving to some dusty rocks in the Middle East might be a nice place to settle down. The fact that there was already an indigenous population living there (some of whom were Jews as well) is not in dispute. The fact that colonialism and tragic circumstances of that time combined and resulted in the migration of Jews and the formation of the State of Israel is also not in dispute.
I didn't exactly say that they threw a dart at the map and it randomly landed in Palestine. Nor that they didn't have any good reason to want to move somewhere, and there in particular. But regardless of their reasons, the result for the locals was the same and they were equally wronged. If instead of Jews wanting to settle in the promised land, it had been Scotsmen who thought that the climate was perfect to raise sheep, the effect would have been the same for the Palestinians.

Jean Valjean needing bread for his children doesn't make taking it not a theft. And especially not if the bread is taken from someone who also has hungry children.


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I've not seem much disagreement from anyone on the above. What I find disingenuous in these discussions, which happen frequently enough, is the criticism and accusatory finger pointing without perspective and the vitriolic accusations of "AIPAC rubber stampers", "Zionists", and "Holocaust shaming/guilting". Hard to view that as anything other than anti-semitic stereotyping, whether it's intentional or not.
You realize that on the other hand accusations of antisemitism *are* used to stamp out criticism of Israel, do you?
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Last edited by clairobscur; 05-18-2019 at 04:09 PM.
  #624  
Old 05-18-2019, 05:53 PM
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Fair enough. I'll try to overlook your questionable choice of beer.
I was young...once. More of an IPA guy now.
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Old 05-19-2019, 08:00 AM
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Here's the other thing. These conversations, for me, are always filtered through the lense that stuff like this is still actively happening. (articles details AJ+ quasi Holocaust denial). It's hard for me to not know this propoganda is floating around and, in some circles, seems to be getting accepted, bit by bit.

Note that the article is in Haaretz a paper which is regularly critical of Israeli policies.

Last edited by NAF1138; 05-19-2019 at 08:01 AM.
  #626  
Old 08-21-2019, 12:30 PM
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So, not to necro this, but if anyone is still denying that these attacks were blatant bad faith, here's the president of the united states:

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Five years ago, the concept of even talking about this - even three years ago - of cutting off aid to Israel because of two people that hate Israel and hate Jewish people - I can't believe we're even having this conversation. Where has the Democratic Party gone? Where have they gone where they're defending these two people over the State of Israel?

And I think any Jewish people that vote for a Democrat, I think it shows either a total lack of knowledge or great disloyalty.
Man, remember when people were giving Ilhan Omar shit because she said something about some people caring more about Israel? I remember. Those voices are strangely silent now that the president is flat-out saying that all jews should be loyal to Israel over their own congresspeople, and is approvingly quoting an antisemitic conspiracy theorist calling him "King of the jews".

If, by now, your internal model when faced with right-wing criticism isn't: "It's blatantly bad-faith bullshit. They don't actually care, they just use it because it might hurt the other side."... Time to recalibrate.
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Old 08-21-2019, 01:22 PM
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So, not to necro this, but if anyone is still denying that these attacks were blatant bad faith, here's the president of the united states:



Man, remember when people were giving Ilhan Omar shit because she said something about some people caring more about Israel? I remember. Those voices are strangely silent now that the president is flat-out saying that all jews should be loyal to Israel over their own congresspeople, and is approvingly quoting an antisemitic conspiracy theorist calling him "King of the jews".

If, by now, your internal model when faced with right-wing criticism isn't: "It's blatantly bad-faith bullshit. They don't actually care, they just use it because it might hurt the other side."... Time to recalibrate.
I don't feel like people are being silent, at least not jewish people. There has been uproar in my corner of the jewish world over what the President has recently said. Unfortunately, this is just the kind of stuff he says and so uproar is largely met with a shrug.

The world is pretty well fucked. I'm not sure what the solution is.
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Old 08-21-2019, 01:53 PM
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So, not to necro this, but if anyone is still denying that these attacks were blatant bad faith, here's the president of the united states:



Man, remember when people were giving Ilhan Omar shit because she said something about some people caring more about Israel? I remember. Those voices are strangely silent now that the president is flat-out saying that all jews should be loyal to Israel over their own congresspeople, and is approvingly quoting an antisemitic conspiracy theorist calling him "King of the jews".

If, by now, your internal model when faced with right-wing criticism isn't: "It's blatantly bad-faith bullshit. They don't actually care, they just use it because it might hurt the other side."... Time to recalibrate.
To play devil's advocate, I don't think he was saying they need to be loyal to Israel, the country but that they should be loyal to Jews as a whole (remember Jews self identify as a people), so this would mean that he is saying that they should be loyal to themselves. Why on earth would they offer more loyalty to a congressperson when that loyalty goes against yourself?
  #629  
Old 08-21-2019, 01:55 PM
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To play devil's advocate, I don't think he was saying they need to be loyal to Israel, the country but that they should be loyal to Jews as a whole (remember Jews self identify as a people), so this would mean that he is saying that they should be loyal to themselves. Why on earth would they offer more loyalty to a congressperson when that loyalty goes against yourself?
He specifically said Israel:

https://twitter.com/AndrewFeinberg/s...04228883230722

I'm not surprised by Trump piling on anti-Semitism (which he's not a stranger to) on top of all his other bigoted and hateful statements. And I'm not surprised to see so many Republicans in office defending and justifying this anti-Semitism, or gas-lighting by trying to pretend it's benign.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 08-21-2019 at 01:56 PM.
  #630  
Old 08-21-2019, 01:59 PM
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He specifically said Israel:

https://twitter.com/AndrewFeinberg/s...04228883230722

I'm not surprised by Trump piling on anti-Semitism (which he's not a stranger to) on top of all his other bigoted and hateful statements. And I'm not surprised to see so many Republicans in office defending and justifying this anti-Semitism, or gas-lighting by trying to pretend it's benign.
We all know Trump says what Trump (he's a dumbass) says. I am saying , I can read into him saying Israel, that he means Jews.

If then follows.

If that is true, then yes, the loyalty that he is describing is a correct valuation.
  #631  
Old 08-21-2019, 02:00 PM
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We all know Trump says what Trump (he's a dumbass) says. I am saying , I can read into him saying Israel, that he means Jews.

If then follows.

If that is true, then yes, the loyalty that he is describing is a correct valuation.
No, it's a bullshit valuation. Total bullshit. There's no contradiction between supporting the Democratic party and supporting Israel or supporting Jews in general.
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Old 08-21-2019, 02:18 PM
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No, it's a bullshit valuation. Total bullshit. There's no contradiction between supporting the Democratic party and supporting Israel or supporting Jews in general.
You are conflating Democratic party with one or two congress people? Can you not be a Democrat but support a different candidate? So you are partially correct, since I never said it was a contradiction to be a Democrat and supporting Israel, or Jews.

Last edited by Kearsen1; 08-21-2019 at 02:20 PM.
  #633  
Old 08-21-2019, 02:20 PM
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There's no contradiction between supporting the Democratic party and supporting Israel or supporting Jews in general.
It is true that supporting Democrats as opposed to Republicans is marginally more likely to mean not supporting the oppressive and antidemocratic policies of the current Israeli government. But where Trump has his head up his ass (one of many ways, in fact) is in trying to equate support for the oppressive and antidemocratic policies of the current Israeli government with support for Israel as a national entity or for Jews in general.
  #634  
Old 08-21-2019, 02:31 PM
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You are conflating Democratic party with one or two congress people? Can you not be a Democrat but support a different candidate? So you are partially correct, since I never said it was a contradiction to be a Democrat and supporting Israel, or Jews.
You didn't, but Trump did. Trump's valuation was entirely bullshit. Not only is there no contradiction between voting Democratic and supporting Israel or supporting Jews in general, but there's no contradiction in supporting Ilhan Omar or Rashida Tlaib and supporting Israel, or supporting Jews in general. There's a contradiction between supporting Omar and Tlaib and supporting Netanyahu, or many policies of the current Israeli government, but that's entirely separate from supporting Israel as a whole, or supporting Jews in general.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 08-21-2019 at 02:33 PM.
  #635  
Old 08-21-2019, 02:54 PM
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You didn't, but Trump did. Trump's valuation was entirely bullshit. Not only is there no contradiction between voting Democratic and supporting Israel or supporting Jews in general, but there's no contradiction in supporting Ilhan Omar or Rashida Tlaib and supporting Israel, or supporting Jews in general. There's a contradiction between supporting Omar and Tlaib and supporting Netanyahu, or many policies of the current Israeli government, but that's entirely separate from supporting Israel as a whole, or supporting Jews in general.

If the people see the leader of Israel as Israel and the Jewish people are a pretty lock step group, then yes I can see those Jewish people NOT supporting people whom they feel are anti-Semitic. In this case, the congress people (even though they still support Democratic policies)

If all you are doing here is calling out Trump for trying to be political, then I surrender. You have won that battle long ago.
  #636  
Old 08-21-2019, 03:04 PM
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If the people see the leader of Israel as Israel and the Jewish people are a pretty lock step group, then yes I can see those Jewish people NOT supporting people whom they feel are anti-Semitic. In this case, the congress people (even though they still support Democratic policies)
If you're talking about Jews, then in my experience, most of "the people" (i.e. Jews like me) do NOT "see the leader of Israel as Israel". Perhaps some do, but in my experience the vast majority do not.

The second part is correct -- Jews generally don't support people who they feel are anti-Semitic. A big part of my opposition to Trump is the hatred and bigotry he's spouted, including anti-Semitic stuff (as well as tolerance/support for the anti-Semitism of others).

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If all you are doing here is calling out Trump for trying to be political, then I surrender. You have won that battle long ago.
I'm not calling him out for being political, but for being anti-Semitic. What he said was anti-Semitic on multiple levels.

I'm not aware of anything anti-Semitic from Tlaib. Omar gave a solid (IMO) apology for the anti-Semtic statement she made a while back. Trump has never apologized for the many hateful and bigoted things he's said.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 08-21-2019 at 03:06 PM.
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