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  #51  
Old 07-16-2019, 02:35 PM
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You were pretty descriptive of your feelings about your expectations for proper flag respect and I didn't see any room for disagreement, or allowance for other forms of patriotism. You certainly have the freedom of your feelings toward the flag, but its not in line with freedom to expect that everyone else must follow that.
I'm not the one who has set the expectations for proper flag respect. It's long established protocol that goes way back further than me. I was taught it in Kindergarten, Cub Scouts, and through many years in the military.

My saying "I feel this way" is not the same thing as adding "...and nobody else can feel another way." I fully support CK's right to protest as he did. That's not the same thing as approving of it. Likewise, disapproval of how he chose to protest is not the same thing as disapproving of what he was protesting.
  #52  
Old 07-16-2019, 02:40 PM
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Well it was after talking to a veteran that he started kneeling, because that veteran told him kneeling was *more* respectful. See your views on the flag and respect are not universal and its frankly the opposite of freedom that you insist that it is.
I never claimed my view as being in any way universal. Nor does my dislike have anything to do with his freedom to do as he pleases, or anyone else's freedom to completely disagree with me. I have no idea what you are talking about with that last phrase at all.
  #53  
Old 07-16-2019, 02:52 PM
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Speaking for myself, as a veteran, it is wayyyy more disrespectful to use us as political game pieces than to kneel during the anthem.
Agreed. There are a lot of legitimate veteran's issues, but there are also politicians out there ready to wave the military around like window dressing during an election cycle.
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Old 07-16-2019, 02:53 PM
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I never claimed my view as being in any way universal. Nor does my dislike have anything to do with his freedom to do as he pleases, or anyone else's freedom to completely disagree with me. I have no idea what you are talking about with that last phrase at all.
So you are ok with everyone expressing their patriotism in the way that is most meaningful to them? Even when that means protesting the ways that the country is not living up to its ideals? Because that's not what you've been saying as far as I can tell.
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  #55  
Old 07-16-2019, 03:08 PM
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So you are ok with everyone expressing their patriotism in the way that is most meaningful to them? Even when that means protesting the ways that the country is not living up to its ideals? Because that's not what you've been saying as far as I can tell.
Then you haven't been reading very carefully. I support his or anyone else's right to protest certainly. That doesn't mean I have to like the way they choose to do so. For the record, people could burn the flag and I'd support their right to do so while at the same time being pissed at them for doing it. And I couldn't care less what actual cause was being protested, whether I was for, against, or completely neutral.
  #56  
Old 07-16-2019, 03:13 PM
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Cite that Colin Kaepawhatever is smart? A 4.0 GPA doesn't prove it if his major was business management for instance.
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  #57  
Old 07-16-2019, 03:19 PM
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Then you haven't been reading very carefully. I support his or anyone else's right to protest certainly. That doesn't mean I have to like the way they choose to do so. For the record, people could burn the flag and I'd support their right to do so while at the same time being pissed at them for doing it. And I couldn't care less what actual cause was being protested, whether I was for, against, or completely neutral.
My very favorite discussion tactic is impugning the literacy of those that you are arguing with.

Fair enough, you are certainly entitled to think he's an asshole, and I am entitled to think that those that think there is only one right way to be a patriot are wrong.
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  #58  
Old 07-16-2019, 03:21 PM
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Cite that Colin Kaepawhatever is smart? A 4.0 GPA doesn't prove it if his major was business management for instance.
He scored a 38 on the Wonderlic test before the NFL draft. The average score is 20. He is in the 98th percentile.

https://wonderlictestsample.com/wonderlic-test-scoring/
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  #59  
Old 07-16-2019, 03:27 PM
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I support his or anyone else's right to protest certainly. That doesn't mean I have to like the way they choose to do so.
It really would help the credibility of that assertion if you'd tell us what means of protest you would like. Without that, other motives can be inferred. And do please recognize that a protest that raises emotion is more effective than one that does not - the causes for that emotion then become open to examination, and that can lead to addressing the problem that caused the protest.

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And I couldn't care less what actual cause was being protested, whether I was for, against, or completely neutral.
It does seem odd that format animates you but content does not.
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Old 07-16-2019, 03:29 PM
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I rather do think it's disrespect. I don't think he's unaware of the customs regarding the anthem. Refusing to participate by not standing would be a far less offensive way of showing dissent.
Iím curious: letís say a guy comes to you and says, man, that Kaepernick ó I want to show disrespect to that guy; if I ever meet him, Iíd sure like to find an offensive way to express that disrespect. Anyhow, I think Iíve hit on the perfect solution, and so I want your advice: if I meet Kaepernick, Iíll kneel to him. Thatíll show him, huh? Oh, yeah, there Iíll be, just deferentially genuflecting before the guy for a full minute; and canít you just picture the look on his face?

How would you reply?
  #61  
Old 07-16-2019, 03:56 PM
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Kaepernik knelt because he hates the country and the anthem is a symbol of the country. Police brutality is part of the reason he hates this country and was in the news.
I hear he is a good guy and would not do anything just to make people mad.
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Old 07-16-2019, 03:58 PM
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Iím curious: letís say a guy comes to you and says, man, that Kaepernick ó I want to show disrespect to that guy; if I ever meet him, Iíd sure like to find an offensive way to express that disrespect. Anyhow, I think Iíve hit on the perfect solution, and so I want your advice: if I meet Kaepernick, Iíll kneel to him. Thatíll show him, huh? Oh, yeah, there Iíll be, just deferentially genuflecting before the guy for a full minute; and canít you just picture the look on his face?

How would you reply?
I would reply that he makes no sense whatsoever.

There's a long-established protocol for the anthem that says people should stand and face the flag. While simply not standing would be a refusal to participate, actively kneeling is doing exactly the opposite of that. If the custom was "everyone take a knee" and he stood up straight and tall it would be the same sort of gesture.
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Old 07-16-2019, 04:01 PM
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Kaepernik knelt because he hates the country and the anthem is a symbol of the country. Police brutality is part of the reason he hates this country and was in the news.
I hear he is a good guy and would not do anything just to make people mad.
"Hates this country" != "this country is not currently living up to its ideals"

If you talk to your kid about something they have done wrong does that mean you hate your kid?
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Old 07-16-2019, 04:03 PM
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I would reply that he makes no sense whatsoever.

There's a long-established protocol for the anthem that says people should stand and face the flag. While simply not standing would be a refusal to participate, actively kneeling is doing exactly the opposite of that. If the custom was "everyone take a knee" and he stood up straight and tall it would be the same sort of gesture.
A veteran told him that kneeling was more respectful than sitting it out. You keep stating your opinion as if its iron-clad fact. You are not the only one that has views on what is or isn't respectful. He listened to someone that had a different view and he followed his advice. Why do you keep ignoring this?

https://www.npr.org/2018/09/09/64611...to-take-a-knee
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  #65  
Old 07-16-2019, 04:46 PM
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It really would help the credibility of that assertion if you'd tell us what means of protest you would like. Without that, other motives can be inferred. And do please recognize that a protest that raises emotion is more effective than one that does not - the causes for that emotion then become open to examination, and that can lead to addressing the problem that caused the protest.

I understand why he did what he did, which was to get the maximum rise out of people and achieve notoriety for his cause. There are some here who think what he did was actually a form of respectful protest. I disagree. If he had sat unmoving, that would have been a way of registering protest by refusing to participate. Taking the knee appears to me anyway to be making a statement of opposition. It's like comparing not waving hello to giving the someone the finger. I've seen that someone reportedly advised him that kneeling would be seen as more respectful, but I don't think that turned out to be the case judging by the media.

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It does seem odd that format animates you but content does not.
I'm discussing the format of his protest apart from the content because the form his protest took is what the thread topic is all about.

Because we are typing at each other instead of talking, it might seem like I am "up in arms" about him, but I'm not. I do value the flag and the anthem as symbols, and I very much dislike it when people denigrate it. But it's not a "set my hair on fire, boycott the NFL and Nike!" reaction. It's an "I don't like that" reaction.

The only thing that truly animates me here is being told that there's no daylight between disliking his actions and being someone who "makes excuses for police brutality as long as it is directed against scary non-whites" or "hate it when black people stand up for themselves" as the OP puts it.
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Old 07-16-2019, 04:59 PM
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A veteran told him that kneeling was more respectful than sitting it out. You keep stating your opinion as if its iron-clad fact. You are not the only one that has views on what is or isn't respectful. He listened to someone that had a different view and he followed his advice. Why do you keep ignoring this?

https://www.npr.org/2018/09/09/64611...to-take-a-knee
I am stating my opinion as if it's my opinion. I'm fully aware that others do not share it. So what? Because that other veteran that told him that this would be better than sitting quietly was voicing his opinion too.
  #67  
Old 07-16-2019, 05:08 PM
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I am stating my opinion as if it's my opinion. I'm fully aware that others do not share it. So what? Because that other veteran that told him that this would be better than sitting quietly was voicing his opinion too.
I'm just saying that yours isn't the only interpretation of respect, and he did take the advice of someone that told him how to do it respectfully. You can consider that or you can ignore it, but if it doesn't alter at all your view of his intentions then that is unfortunate.
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  #68  
Old 07-16-2019, 05:29 PM
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He scored a 38 on the Wonderlic test before the NFL draft. The average score is 20. He is in the 98th percentile.

https://wonderlictestsample.com/wonderlic-test-scoring/
The wonderlic test isn't a mensa entrance exam. Think about the population of those being examined.
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Old 07-16-2019, 06:17 PM
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Second point first yourself.
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As far as the flag not having "jack shit" to do with the military... It doesn't belong exclusively to the military, no. It is nevertheless a very central part of military culture and if there is any segment of the population that holds the flag most dear, it is the military.
People's feelings don't give them ownership. If they're going to put such value on them, they need to be told, Trumpist-fashion, to "fuck [their] feelings."

Good advice in this case, because the flag belongs to and stands for every last single fucking American equally. Even to and for unpatriotic souls like me. Their sensitive feewings give them no additional claim.

As far as your first point goes:
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The protocol for showing respect for the flag and the anthem is to stand and salute if in uniform, to remove your hat and place your hand over your heart if not.
No, that's the protocol for showing allegiance. Do you salute other countries' flags and anthems? If not, you shouldn't be confused on this point.
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Taking a knee is absolutely the opposite of that, intentionally and pointedly so.
No, the opposite would be to raise a ruckus, curse the flag, spit at it, and try to grab it and throw it down or set it afire.

Taking a knee was about the most minimal way possible to visibly differ from those expressing their allegiance. And allegiance is not a requirement for citizenship in good standing, fwiw.
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Old 07-16-2019, 08:51 PM
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There are some here who think what he did was actually a form of respectful protest. I disagree.
You do indeed refuse any possibility of being dissuaded from your opinion, as already stated. Then you're welcome to stew in it.

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I'm discussing the format of his protest apart from the content because the form his protest took is what the thread topic is all about.
Better go reread the OP, or even just the thread title, then.
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Old 07-16-2019, 09:01 PM
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"respectfully taking a knee" is oxymoronic when there is established protocol for showing respect to the anthem.
Cite, please. And requiring people to salute the flag is not respect for anything but jingoistic, militaristic nationalism and is fundamentally disrespectful to America and the idea of freedom. Forcing people to salute the flag and recite a pledge to it is something that grew from Cold War hysteria, it's not some fundamental American value and was in fact one of the favorite pasttimes of fascist countries historically.

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The idea that I support Trump in ANY way, let alone on his ban on transgendered troops, attacks on McCain, and pretty much anything he's ever done is 100% wrong. I'm center-left and a registered Democrat for fuck's sake.
You're here supporting him in his attack on a black man engaging in peaceful, respectful protest, so your ANY is violated by this very post.

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which boils down to not painting every person that doesn't like CK's kneeling as some sort of racist asshole. You can dislike the method of the protest regardless of the message.
If you oppose respectful, peaceful protest of an action then you are in favor of that action. Supporting the violent murder of innocent black people is racist.
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Old 07-16-2019, 11:09 PM
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Second point first yourself.
People's feelings don't give them ownership. If they're going to put such value on them, they need to be told, Trumpist-fashion, to "fuck [their] feelings."

Good advice in this case, because the flag belongs to and stands for every last single fucking American equally. Even to and for unpatriotic souls like me. Their sensitive feewings give them no additional claim.
Uh... I actually said the military has no exclusive ownership over the flag. You even quoted it. I only illustrated why many in the military would be more likely to take offense. As for the rest. shall I follow your advice and "Trumpist fashion" say "fuck your callous disregard"?

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As far as your first point goes:
No, that's the protocol for showing allegiance. Do you salute other countries' flags and anthems? If not, you shouldn't be confused on this point.
No, the opposite would be to raise a ruckus, curse the flag, spit at it, and try to grab it and throw it down or set it afire.

Taking a knee was about the most minimal way possible to visibly differ from those expressing their allegiance. And allegiance is not a requirement for citizenship in good standing, fwiw.
True, there's a bunch of ways to act in opposition to the standard anthem customs, and there's no allegiance required to be a citizen. CK can protest all he wants, and I am perfectly free to think he's being a jerk for doing so the way he chooses to do so. It seems plain that he wanted the notoriety, and it was worth it to him to offend people to get it.

Last edited by CAH66; 07-16-2019 at 11:10 PM. Reason: typo
  #73  
Old 07-16-2019, 11:13 PM
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Better go reread the OP, or even just the thread title, then.
Huh? The OP that posits he was taking a knee just to piss people off and not really seriously protesting?
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Old 07-16-2019, 11:22 PM
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Uh... I actually said the military has no exclusive ownership over the flag. You even quoted it. I only illustrated why many in the military would be more likely to take offense.
I guess my response is, why would they take offense? Why do they necessarily have to take offense? My dad was a veteran. I still have the flag folded in triangular form that was displayed next to his coffin at his funeral. I like and respect the American flag generally, but it's also a complex symbol, and I don't understand why it follows that some in the military can't seem to understand that. Look, Kaepernick is kneeling for the anthem. He's not torching or desecrating a flag. There's clearly some actual effort involved in taking a position that Kaepernick is being disrespectful to the US or to the military. It seems like veterans who criticize Kaepernick are either incapable of basic analytical reasoning or they want to thrust themselves into the controversy because they want to fight someone.

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True, there's a bunch of ways to act in opposition to the standard anthem customs, and there's no allegiance required to be a citizen. CK can protest all he wants, and I am perfectly free to think he's being a jerk for doing so the way he chooses to do so. It seems plain that he wanted the notoriety, and it was worth it to him to offend people to get it.
You can think he's a jerk if you want, but why do you think he's a jerk when it's obvious he wasn't in any way aiming his protests at the military? If you pass by a guy and his girl having on argument on the street and you hear the guy call her a bytch, that doesn't mean that he's talking about your wife, sister, mother, or aunt. It's clearly aimed at someone else. As long as he doesn't start pimp slapping her, stay out of other people's fights.
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Old 07-16-2019, 11:46 PM
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Cite, please. And requiring people to salute the flag is not respect for anything but jingoistic, militaristic nationalism and is fundamentally disrespectful to America and the idea of freedom. Forcing people to salute the flag and recite a pledge to it is something that grew from Cold War hysteria, it's not some fundamental American value and was in fact one of the favorite pasttimes of fascist countries historically.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/301

Customs, courtesies and protocols != requirements. Nobody is forcing him to do anything. The US Flag Code doesn't have force of law, and hasn't in ages.

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You're here supporting him in his attack on a black man engaging in peaceful, respectful protest, so your ANY is violated by this very post.

If you oppose respectful, peaceful protest of an action then you are in favor of that action. Supporting the violent murder of innocent black people is racist.

I NEVER, not ONCE supported Trump's attack on Kaepernick. I never called for a boycott, never said he should be drummed out of the NFL, never once said he shouldn't protest what he's protesting, never said anything other than that I personally find his chosen method of protest to be offensive, and that not liking the method is not the same as not liking the purpose and not the same as against it because he's black. I don't oppose his right to protest at all.

And I sure as hell don't support the "violent murder of innocent black people" just because I don't like the kneeling. That's like me accusing you of being a traitor to the US because you don't condemn it. You seriously think that the only two possibilities are "Supports Kaepernick's kneeling" and "Advocates race murders"?
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Old 07-17-2019, 12:59 AM
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I guess my response is, why would they take offense? Why do they necessarily have to take offense? My dad was a veteran. I still have the flag folded in triangular form that was displayed next to his coffin at his funeral. I like and respect the American flag generally, but it's also a complex symbol, and I don't understand why it follows that some in the military can't seem to understand that. Look, Kaepernick is kneeling for the anthem. He's not torching or desecrating a flag. There's clearly some actual effort involved in taking a position that Kaepernick is being disrespectful to the US or to the military. It seems like veterans who criticize Kaepernick are either incapable of basic analytical reasoning or they want to thrust themselves into the controversy because they want to fight someone.



You can think he's a jerk if you want, but why do you think he's a jerk when it's obvious he wasn't in any way aiming his protests at the military? If you pass by a guy and his girl having on argument on the street and you hear the guy call her a bytch, that doesn't mean that he's talking about your wife, sister, mother, or aunt. It's clearly aimed at someone else. As long as he doesn't start pimp slapping her, stay out of other people's fights.
Look, my dislike of Kaepernick's kneeling is fairly mild, comparable to hearing people dropping f-bombs all over Target. The anthem and the flag are symbols that mean something to me, and I will never like seeing them willfully disrespected no matter who is doing so or why. What does chap me is all the people who assume and assert that I, or anyone else who feels the same, must therefore be racist assholes who just love us some killer cops.

The reason I think he's a jerk has nothing to do with whether he's aiming his protest at me or the military. You might disagree whether the behavior is jerkish or not, but it doesn't stop being jerkish if it's pointing away from you. It's like me talking through a church service when I know people around me are going to take offense.

The very first post in this thread paints anyone who doesn't like the kneeling as being nothing more than "Rage over black people standing up for themselves." I came in and posted that it was completely unfair to draw that conclusion, and that it was offensive. Since then I've done nothing but try to explain why I (and others I know but by no means every veteran) might take offense for reasons other than "excuses for police brutality as long as it is directed against scary non-whites."

You are one of the very few posters here that actually seems to consider what I have posted and respond in a way that isn't an attack, so I don't mean that you have done any of this. But so far in this thread I've been told that I have no reason or justification for feeling the way I do, (and am lying about it anyway for that matter), am really a Trump supporter, a flagrant racist, and that I support the violent murder of black people. It's been quite an education, but frankly I am tired of the insults, accusations, and the attempts at point-scoring that has taken the place of discussion.
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Old 07-17-2019, 01:48 AM
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The very first post in this thread paints anyone who doesn't like the kneeling as being nothing more than "Rage over black people standing up for themselves."
To me the whole thread comes across as a leading question; kneeling is a respectful stance, and Colin and others have stated repeatedly and clearly what the protests are about.
Why would I try to infer any other meaning?
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Old 07-17-2019, 10:53 AM
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The very first post in this thread paints anyone who doesn't like the kneeling as being nothing more than "Rage over black people standing up for themselves." I came in and posted that it was completely unfair to draw that conclusion, and that it was offensive. Since then I've done nothing but try to explain why I (and others I know but by no means every veteran) might take offense for reasons other than "excuses for police brutality as long as it is directed against scary non-whites."
I don't see a single post where you explain why you find kneeling offensive, though. In fact you seem to go out of your way to say you don't find it offensive. In fact, you've now changed to saying you "dislike" his actions, rather than find them offensive. You in fact say your dislike is quite mild, and that most other things are more important.

Before that, you would take every reason that most people say they find offensive and say that you do not believe those things. You do not oppose the call against police brutality. You do not think it was disrespectful to the military. You don't think it is disrespectful to the country. You don't believe he was doing it just to "trigger" conservatives.

So, by my reading, you are not offended. You do not think his Kaepernick's action was morally wrong. You are not upset that he performed this action. You do not wish the man ill will.

However, every person I've ever encountered who is offended has either cited it as being "disrespectful to the military" or said they disagree with Black Lives Matter. And every last one of them supported some sort of punishment for Kaepernick and any other NFL player who participated in the protest.

I have not found a single person who claims they find it offensive but believes the same things you do. Even you, by my definition, only find it distasteful, not offensive.

Last edited by BigT; 07-17-2019 at 10:54 AM.
  #79  
Old 07-17-2019, 11:00 AM
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The wonderlic test isn't a mensa entrance exam. Think about the population of those being examined.
You didn't read that link at all did you?

This chart from that link should dispell you of your confusion: (reminder he got a 38) https://wonderlictestsample.com/wonderlic-test-scoring/

Wonderlic Score by Job Title
Systems Analyst 32
Chemist 31
Electrical Engineer 30
Engineer 29
Programmer 29
Accountant 28
Executive 28
Reporter 28
Teacher 28
Copywriter 27
Investment Analyst 27
Librarian 27
Electronics Technician 26
Salesperson 25
Secretary 24
Dispatcher 23
Drafter 23
Electrician 23
Nurse 23
Bank teller 22
Cashier 21
Firefighter 21
Clerical Worker 21
Machinist 21
Receptionist 21
Train conductor 21
Craftsman 18
Security guard 17
Welder 17
Warehouseman 15
Janitor 14
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Last edited by Airbeck; 07-17-2019 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 07-17-2019, 11:27 AM
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Thought I'd pull this out as an example of what I meant in my other post, as I'm not sure I made myself clear.

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Originally Posted by CAH66 View Post
Because we are typing at each other instead of talking, it might seem like I am "up in arms" about him, but I'm not. I do value the flag and the anthem as symbols, and I very much dislike it when people denigrate it. But it's not a "set my hair on fire, boycott the NFL and Nike!" reaction. It's an "I don't like that" reaction.
What makes you appear to be up in arms about him is that you keep saying you are offended by his form of protest. Those mean essentially the same thing.

Dislike, even strong dislike, is not what most people mean by "offended." It implies at least a very strong anger.

Again, I think the better term for what you seem to be describing is "distasteful." You find the form of the protest distasteful, but support the cause it represents.

Though, I will say, I still find that weird. It's kneeling, the same action people do when they pray. People kneel to show loyalty. How can it be disrespectful or distasteful? How is it connected to burning something, which often means "I hate this thing and this thing should not exist?"

And, yes, frankly, I do think that, had Peyton Manning kneeled at during the anthem, people would not be offended, as they'd take it as prayer, just like when other people have taken the knee on the field. However, I do not think the race of the person kneeling was the issue. It's the cause that people don't support. The hatred for BlackLivesMatter predates Kaepernick.

Last edited by BigT; 07-17-2019 at 11:29 AM.
  #81  
Old 07-17-2019, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by BigT View Post
And, yes, frankly, I do think that, had Peyton Manning kneeled at during the anthem, people would not be offended, as they'd take it as prayer, just like when other people have taken the knee on the field.
Is Tebowing offensive? Why not?

Quote:
However, I do not think the race of the person kneeling was the issue. It's the cause that people don't support. The hatred for BlackLivesMatter predates Kaepernick.
A white guy doing it, no matter his reputation, wouldn't have been able to make that point, though.
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Old 07-17-2019, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by CAH66 View Post
While I can't pretend to speak for all the military people out there, I can say that there are a lot of military members who feel that disrespect to the flag and the anthem is a slap in the face. If someone publicly smashed a crucifix every week on TV because they were pissed at the church's scandals, would you expect rank and file Catholics to not feel insulted and angry because it wan't "aimed" at them?
A crucifix is a specifically Catholic symbol. Of course smashing one is more aimed at Catholics than it is at Jews or Sikhs (and that's an inaccurate analogy; Kaepernick did not smash or otherwise harm a flag.)

An American flag is equally the flag of Americans who are civilians as it is of Americans who are in the Armed Services. The U.S. flag belongs to Colin Kaepernick as much as it does you or any other American who has ever lived.
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Old 07-17-2019, 01:06 PM
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The wonderlic test isn't a mensa entrance exam. Think about the population of those being examined.
Ummm...as a matter of fact, it is one that Mensa accepts. 35 is the minimum score.

https://www.us.mensa.org/join/testin...oreconversion/
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Old 07-17-2019, 01:44 PM
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Just out of curiousity, CAH66, is this a, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it", type of thing, that you would defend his right to do so?

Or do you think that players should have to stand for the flag? Cuz if it's the former, I don't have a problem with it. If it's the latter, I don't think you're a racist necessarily, but it's pretty shitty.
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Old 07-17-2019, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Airbeck View Post
"Hates this country" != "this country is not currently living up to its ideals"

If you talk to your kid about something they have done wrong does that mean you hate your kid?
Everyone in America thinks this country has problems and would like it to be better. That does not mean they treat this country and its symbols with disrespect.

Kaepernik has chosen to treat the anthem with disrespect, when people pointed out that they were offended he kept doing it, he has worn socks depicting policemen as pigs, he has expressed support for Che Guevera who wanted to nuke the US, and he recently nixed the production of a shoe with the Betsy Ross flag because he said the flag represents slavery. He has made his feelings about this country plain
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Old 07-17-2019, 02:51 PM
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Cool test, I just scored a 39 with 2 minutes to spare.
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Old 07-17-2019, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by puddleglum View Post
Everyone in America thinks this country has problems and would like it to be better. That does not mean they treat this country and its symbols with disrespect.
Your president.
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Old 07-17-2019, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puddleglum View Post
Everyone in America thinks this country has problems and would like it to be better. That does not mean they treat this country and its symbols with disrespect.

Kaepernik has chosen to treat the anthem with disrespect, when people pointed out that they were offended he kept doing it, he has worn socks depicting policemen as pigs, he has expressed support for Che Guevera who wanted to nuke the US, and he recently nixed the production of a shoe with the Betsy Ross flag because he said the flag represents slavery. He has made his feelings about this country plain
Does grounding your kid mean you're treating them with disrespect, even if you're preventing them from doing something they really want to do?
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Old 07-17-2019, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puddleglum View Post
Kaepernik has chosen to treat the anthem with disrespect
Or another perfectly valid interpretation is that by kneeling during the anthem he is respectfully protesting American racism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by puddleglum
when people pointed out that they were offended he kept doing it,
So you think somebody should automatically stop doing anything that anybody else complains about being offended by? I'll remember that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by puddleglum
he has worn socks depicting policemen as pigs,
Even if true, that has jack-shit to do with "the country and its symbols". Policemen are not symbols of America.
  #90  
Old 07-17-2019, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puddleglum View Post
Kaepernik has chosen to treat the anthem with disrespect, when people pointed out that they were offended he kept doing it
1. The reasons behind it were all explained to you, but you chose to ignore or disbelieve them.
2. Most people were NOT offended by it. Many people were offended by your side's histrionics over it. Yet you folks didn't stop just because other people were offended by the attitudes, lies, slander and hate.

Quote:
he has worn socks depicting policemen as pigs
I'd love it if you could live one year as a black person in America, and then talk to us about this one again.

Police officers are not a symbol of America. They aren't perfect heroes worthy of being worshiped. All too many communities have serious issues with the behavior of their police departments. Even people like me have serious issues with all the bad cops out there being protected by all the alleged good cops, who, if they were really good cops, would be happy to be rid of those bad cops.
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Old 07-17-2019, 09:55 PM
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Aren't police being depicted as pigs a pretty old meme, anyways? Seriously, they're just a goofy pair of socks.
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Old 07-17-2019, 10:07 PM
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I'm not equating disliking Kaepernik protest with advocating state-sanctioned* murder but every time I read these threads I keep thinking some people are losing perspective. What is worse? Not standing in front of a piece of cloth or a police office shooting an unarmed black man in the face?

*State-sanctioned since the murderer is protected by the blue line and the DA.
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Old 07-17-2019, 10:35 PM
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I'm surprised no one has linked to this post yet. It seems pretty relevant in just about every conversation about CK.
  #94  
Old 07-23-2019, 03:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airbeck View Post
Well it was after talking to a veteran that he started kneeling, because that veteran told him kneeling was *more* respectful. See your views on the flag and respect are not universal and its frankly the opposite of freedom that you insist that it is.
I listened to an NPR interview with Nate Boyer, a 6 tour green beret, and, briefly, a professional football player. He said the kneeling was meant to respectfully convey mourning, you mourn things that you believe in, that are important; for the innocent dead, the divided communities, the squandered sacrifice of the proud and brave who came before and the better nation we might be. He never kneeled himself, and wished Kaepernick never had, but he doesn't call it respectful.


But boy does he get a lot of hate mail over it.
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