Straight Dope Message Board

[russian heel]

This past weekend's Boca Juniors-River Plate match WAS to feature the second leg of the tied South American Liberators Cup Final (SA equivalent of the UEFA Champions League Final). Things went all wrong as River Plate's stadium (Monumental) was full waiting for Boca players to arrive when Plate fans launched an attack on the Boca bus, rendering several key Boca players unable to play.

After much political wrangling,. the match was delayed a day (Imagine cancelling the Super Bowl at the last minute, and asking everyone to come back the next day); then postponed the day after when it was deemed Boca was not ready to compete. Now, the leg has been moved top Qatar due to safety reasons.

To further put this into context, arguably, there is no bigger rivalry in soccer than this. One would be hard pressed to find two such large soccer clubs in the same city that are such big rivals. In addition, it has taken 127 years for both teams to end up in the South American Heavyweight Championship.

For that reason, this match was named "El Finalissimo", "The Final to End All Finals" so you can imagine the tension in Buenos Aires as the 2nd leg approached. I somehow think moving the game 9,000 miles away will dull this hence my "WAS" as in "would have been".

When I use the term "showdown", there needs to be some drama, and the appearance the two combatants have not faced before, at least in the context they are battling for.

Are there even bigger showdowns in sports? Ali-Frazier? I know Connor v Floyd got a lot of play last year, but was that really a "showdown" or more of a publicity stunt? Maybe Conner MacGregor v Khabib?

New England v Seattle in the Super Bowl?

The first time Alabama met Clemson in the NCAAF Championship?

Canada v USA for the hockey Gold Medal in Vancouver at the Olympics?

You tell me!

[zimaane]

It's a little before my time, but Mohammed Ali's boxing matches were huge, worldwide events. Connors-McEnroe or Borg - McEnroe at Wimbledon were big showdowns too.

I would think that Barcelona - Real Madrid is a more well known rivalry than any between two teams in Argentina. Barca - RM matches are known as "El Classico" and they are always a big deal, especially when they are in a tournament.

In American football, the biggest rivalries are among teams in the same conference (Bears - Packers, Cowboys - Redskins) so they can't meet in a Super Bowl.

[Snarky_Kong]

Originally Posted by russian heel

To further put this into context, arguably, there is no bigger rivalry in soccer than this. One would be hard pressed to find two such large soccer clubs in the same city that are such big rivals.

Milan vs Internazionale. Man U vs Man City. Arsenal vs Tottenham. Real Madric vs Atletico Madrid. Celtic vs Rangers.

[Snarky_Kong]

The telegraph does rate the Boca vs River Plate as the biggest rivalry in soccer though.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...?frame=3239137

[Little Nemo]

I'm voting for the 1936 Berlin Olympics.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by zimaane

Barca - RM matches are known as "El Classico"

Boca v. River is the Superclasico, however .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercl%C3%A1sico

The Superclásico is known worldwide as one of the fiercest and most important derbies.[8] In April 2004, the English newspaper The Observer put the Superclásico at the top of their list of "50 sporting things you must do before you die", saying that "Derby day in Buenos Aires makes the Old Firm game look like a primary school kick-about",[9] in 2016 the British football magazine FourFourTwo considered it the "biggest derby in the world",[10] The Daily Telegraph ranked this match as the "biggest club rivalry in world football" in 2016,[11] and the Daily Mirror placed it number 1 in The top 50 football derbies in the world, above El Clásico between FC Barcelona and Real Madrid C.F., in 2017.[12]

[Jackknifed Juggernaut]

I was just going to start a thread on this , so lucky I saw this. First, pretty impressive that they were able to move the Copa Libertadores Final match to December 9 in Madrid. I just wonder how much the Spanish fans will care. Surely some of the Argentine players in Spain will show up for the match. I think recency bias has dropped this rivalry a bit in the all-time ranking. The well funded European leagues dominate soccer now, so the South American teams are always a step behind. But outside Europe, this has to be the greatest rivalry. By the way, the Eternal Derby in Croatia has to be considered for the top spot. Fans sneak flares into the arenas prison-style. Google that one and tell me if you would go.

[Jackknifed Juggernaut]

Originally Posted by Snarky_Kong

..... Man U vs Man City. Arsenal vs Tottenham....

In England, I think Man U-Liverpool takes the top spot.

[Snarky_Kong]

Originally Posted by Jackknifed Juggernaut

In England, I think Man U-Liverpool takes the top spot.

OP said same city.

[Jackknifed Juggernaut]

Originally Posted by Snarky_Kong

OP said same city.

Gotcha

[Colibri]

Originally Posted by zimaane

In American football, the biggest rivalries are among teams in the same conference (Bears - Packers, Cowboys - Redskins) so they can't meet in a Super Bowl.

Same in baseball. The biggest rivalries are Yankees-Red Sox, Giants-Dodgers, and Cardinals-Cubs. They can't meet for the championship, so the biggest "showdowns" are in the playoffs.

The biggest "showdown" of this sort has undoubtedly been the 2004 ALCS between the Yankees-Red Sox, when the Red Sox finally managed to beat their rivals after being down 0-3. Before that it would have been the 1951 tie-breaking series for the pennant between the Dodgers and the Giants. But these wouldn't satisfy some of the other conditions in the OP.

[russian heel]

Eh..... with all due respect to these great rivalries, still can’t imagine a Man U-Liverpool game in 2018 or a Red Sox-Yankees game being moved to different country, let alone continent because of the fan tension.


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[Novelty Bobble]

depends what you mean by "biggest".

If that is "most violent" or "most civil order issues" then possibly. If you mean "most watched" or "most interest worldwide" then probably not.

[Colibri]

Originally Posted by russian heel

Eh..... with all due respect to these great rivalries, still can’t imagine a Man U-Liverpool game in 2018 or a Red Sox-Yankees game being moved to different country, let alone continent because of the fan tension.

I don't think that fans of any other sports engage in such extreme violence against either other fans or players as soccer, so you're limited to examples from that sport. (I have seen plenty of scuffles at Yankees-Red Sox games, and there are other examples of individual violence and even killings, but not organized violence by groups of fans. And there may be celebratory riots and car-burnings after a championship in some cities. But fans assaulting a team bus and several players would be unheard of.) I don't think the degree of violence by fans indicates the importance of a "showdown" in sports.

[Atamasama]

Originally Posted by russian heel

New England v Seattle in the Super Bowl?

Eh, that was a big deal because of the way it ended, not necessarily because the match itself was a big showdown. They did have a bit of a rivalry going into it but it’s two teams from opposite sides of the country that didn’t have too much of a history going into the game. (If they somehow had a rematch this year, which is very unlikely but not impossible, that would probably be a big deal.)

The 2013 NFC Championship between Seattle and San Francisco was a much bigger showdown; two teams that pretty much hated each other, coached by head coaches that clashed, and both at the height of their ability and the rivalry was also at their peak. After that game the Seahawks went on to steamroll Denver 43-8 and be champions, and the Niners faded away and slowly fell apart (and are competing this year for first draft pick). The game itself was filled with lots of emotion as well (Richard Sherman’s postgame rant is infamous). To me that’s about as much of a showdown as you’ll likely see in the NFL.

[Telemark]

The NFL just doesn't seem to create the same heated rivalries that college football does. Alabama vs Auburn, Michigan vs Ohio St, Army vs Navy - these are events. NFL games are just important games.

[Atamasama]

I agree, I think part of it is because NFL teams are owned by private individuals, and are tied to certain geographical markets but can move or otherwise go away pretty much at any time if it makes business sense. In college, a team is tied to a school and isn’t going anywhere because that school isn’t going anywhere. And many schools have been around for a very long time and will continue to be.

So just being tied to a school makes these rivalries more potent. You’d expect things to be more emotional and deeper in college.

[Colibri]

I wouldn't consider the two teams to be long-term rivals, but the 2007 Superbowl between the New England Patriots and New York Giants had the nature of a showdown. The Patriots had defeated the Giants in the final week of the season to complete a perfect 16-0 regular season. That made it all the more dramatic when the underdog Giants beat them in the Superbowl to deny them the first perfect 19-0 record.

[Atamasama]

Plus, Eli vs Tom, who is the greatest of all time?!

[Colibri]

Originally Posted by Atamasama

Plus, Eli vs Tom, who is the greatest of all time?!

I don't think even Giant fans consider Eli the GOAT. I think you must be confusing him with his brother Peyton, who never faced Brady in the Superbowl.

[Jackmannii]

The biggest sports showdown in history was undoubtedly the 1975 CFL (Chicagoland Football League) championship game in which the Newton Nite Hawks* defeated the Niles Saints.

*you will remember their stellar running back, Lightning Mitchell.

[Atamasama]

Originally Posted by Colibri

I don't think even Giant fans consider Eli the GOAT. I think you must be confusing him with his brother Peyton, who never faced Brady in the Superbowl.

I was being ironic, but no I couldn’t confuse Eli with Peyton (who will almost surely be in the HoF).

[Saint Cad]

I would go with Yale vs Princeton for the final football game in 1888.

[russian heel]

Originally Posted by Telemark

The NFL just doesn't seem to create the same heated rivalries that college football does. Alabama vs Auburn, Michigan vs Ohio St, Army vs Navy - these are events. NFL games are just important games.

Especially in College when teams don’t always regularly meet each other. The Notre Dame v Miami “Catholics v Convicts” showdown in the 80s is a great example.

Recently in Philly the Temple-Notre Dame game was a pretty big deal—— Temple wins suddenly they are a top 10 team with a snowballs chance at the Playoff. As it turns out they lost and played the Motor City Bowl.


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[Guinastasia]

No love for the Miracle on Ice? The Vancouver Olympics is a fucking joke in comparison.

Or for that matter, the Summit Series between Canada and the Soviet Union.

[AK84]

England v Australia. Pakistan v India in cricket.
Germany v Netherlands in soccer. Or Brazil V Argentina.

[Jackknifed Juggernaut]

If we’re including individual sports, Ali-Frazier, Robinson-LaMotta, Hearns-Hagler-Leonard, Sampras-Agassi, Nadal-Federer-Djokovic, Nicklaus-Palmer, Tiger-Phil, Ovett-Coe

[Jackknifed Juggernaut]

Originally Posted by Jackknifed Juggernaut

If we’re including individual sports, Ali-Frazier, Robinson-LaMotta, Hearns-Hagler-Leonard, Sampras-Agassi, Nadal-Federer-Djokovic, Nicklaus-Palmer, Tiger-Phil, Ovett-Coe

Plus individuals within team sports: Messi-Ronaldo, Bird-Magic, Crosby-Ovechkin

[Jackknifed Juggernaut]

Well, there goes that idea...

http://www.espn.com/soccer/river-pla...iors-in-madrid

[RickJay]

Any World Cup final is bigger than ANY national championship in any sport in any country. More than a billion people - at least 25 times the population of Argentina - watched the 2018 final. A World Cup final draws ten times the viewers of a Super Bowl. It's not a close call.

The Miracle on Ice wasn't even on TV when it was being played. It was a hell of an upset but as a big hyped event, it's not in the top 10,000 sports events of the 20th century.

[Atamasama]

Originally Posted by RickJay

Any World Cup final is bigger than ANY national championship in any sport in any country. More than a billion people - at least 25 times the population of Argentina - watched the 2018 final. A World Cup final draws ten times the viewers of a Super Bowl. It's not a close call.

The Miracle on Ice wasn't even on TV when it was being played. It was a hell of an upset but as a big hyped event, it's not in the top 10,000 sports events of the 20th century.

Soccer/football (whatever you call it) is the biggest sport in the world so yes, I agree that nothing else is going to come close.

[Frodo]

Biggest sports showdown in history? no, it much more important than that :P

[Jackknifed Juggernaut]

Originally Posted by RickJay

Any World Cup final is bigger than ANY national championship in any sport in any country. More than a billion people - at least 25 times the population of Argentina - watched the 2018 final. A World Cup final draws ten times the viewers of a Super Bowl. It's not a close call...

I can’t tell exactly what is being asked in the OP, but it seems to refer to the greatest rivalries. I’m not sure there have been enough World Cups to have real rivalries between countries. You could point to Brazil-Argentina or Germany-Holland, but they rarely meet in important World Cup games, and never in the World Cup final match. The biggest rivalries are generally within a league for club teams or within a continent for national teams. The OP refers to the Superclassico happening in the finals of the Copa Libertadores. This would be like Real Madrid facing FC Barcelona or Man United playing Liverpool in the final of the Champions League. So if the criterion is to have the most decorated and bitter rivals play for the most prestigious title in their sport, it’s hard to argue with Boca-River in the CL final.

[polar bear]

1974 was Holland germany in the WC Final. 14 years later it was the semi Final in the European cup. Both tournaments played in germany

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[Frodo]

Originally Posted by Frodo

Biggest sports showdown in history? no, it much more important than that :P

ITS no it

On the other hand considering the behavior of the fans lately may be talking in caveman language is not out of place...

[cmkeller]

Colibri:

The biggest rivalries are Yankees-Red Sox, Giants-Dodgers, and Cardinals-Cubs.

Those that remain, true, but before 1958, Yankees-Dodgers and Yankees-Giants were darned big deals, and they met in the World Series quite a few times.

[Jackknifed Juggernaut]

By the way, the Final match was indeed played at the Bernabeu (home of Real Madrid). River Plate (the team that couldn’t play its home game due to fan violence) ended up winning its 4th Copa Libertadores. Interestingly, 4 of the top 5 teams with the most Copa championships are from Argentina, even if Brazil has the top league throughout the history of South American soccer. Independente has the most with 7, followed by Boca Juniors (the 2018 losing team) with 6.

[ekedolphin]

Why would fans sneak flares into a soccer stadium, and why doesn't such a thing take place in America?

[Jackknifed Juggernaut]

Originally Posted by ekedolphin

Why would fans sneak flares into a soccer stadium, and why doesn't such a thing take place in America?

Better funded and more professional security?

[Snarky_Kong]

Originally Posted by ekedolphin

Why would fans sneak flares into a soccer stadium, and why doesn't such a thing take place in America?

It's happened before.

https://ssl.c.photoshelter.com/img-g...A111409218.jpg

I know the current owner of Chicago has tried (succeeded?) in preventing it though.