Straight Dope Message Board

[jaycat]

Inspired by the Redskins currently down 34-0 to the mighty Giants at halftime. If the Skins aren't the worst team in the league right now, I don't know who is.

Could Alabama beat them? (or Clemson, Ohio State, Central Florida...)

[running coach]

Nope. The pro game is WAAAAAAY beyond the college game. Look how many early draft picks (who are judged to have a chance) don't make it or have minimal careers.

[Rysto]

No. Think about how many players on Alabama's roster who will never even be drafted (or signed as free agents). Think about how many players will be drafted and will wash out.

Even the worst player on the worst NFL team will be better than these players.

[Telemark]

Originally Posted by Rysto

Even the worst player on the worst NFL team will be better than these players.

That's not quite true; there are a handful of Alabama players that will start in the NFL next year. There's probably a few 3rd string NFL players that are worse than the best Bama players. But man-for-man, Alabama would be woefully outplayed by any NFL team.

[pool]

I've heard people say things like Miami in their prime in the 90's possibly could have beaten a terrible NFL team during that period, they were quite dominating at one point, I can almost believe it but it probably would have been them squeaking by for a two point win or something.

[FlikTheBlue]

It’s not as if Alabama is blowing away all their opponents. They barely squeaked by Georgia in the SEC championship. If they can just barely beat Georgia, I doubt they would have a chance against the Redskins.

[DSYoungEsq]

Part of it is that you're comparing young men in their teens and early 20s to men in their mid-to-late 20s and early 30s. If you took the 'Bama players of today, and they all continued playing football, they might as an aggregate be able to do so, but playing college ball?

[Snarky_Kong]

Originally Posted by DSYoungEsq

Part of it is that you're comparing young men in their teens and early 20s to men in their mid-to-late 20s and early 30s. If you took the 'Bama players of today, and they all continued playing football, they might as an aggregate be able to do so, but playing college ball?

Still incredibly unlikely. Even if Alabama has 12 people on their team that make the NFL, the Redskins have 75 that made the NFL.

[iiandyiiii]

Pretty much every NFL player was a great college player, plus years of both physical and mental development. It would be a major blowout. A huge physical mismatch, and an even bigger mental mismatch (in terms of discipline and execution).

[Rysto]

Originally Posted by Telemark

That's not quite true; there are a handful of Alabama players that will start in the NFL next year. There's probably a few 3rd string NFL players that are worse than the best Bama players. But man-for-man, Alabama would be woefully outplayed by any NFL team.

I meant that the worst players on the NFL team's roster are better than the Alabama players that will wash out.

[Telemark]

Originally Posted by pool

I've heard people say things like Miami in their prime in the 90's possibly could have beaten a terrible NFL team during that period, they were quite dominating at one point, I can almost believe it but it probably would have been them squeaking by for a two point win or something.

Nope, they wouldn't have stood a chance. The NFL game is just that much faster and the players are just that much stronger.

[Ellis Dee]

I liked Cris Carter's take on a similar question a decade or so ago about some other dominant college team. "The question isn't whether [dominant college team] could beat [worst NFL team], the question is whether you could sign all the [dominant college team]'s players on a single NFL team and stay under the salary cap."

[Atamasama]

Originally Posted by Ellis Dee

I liked Cris Carter's take on a similar question a decade or so ago about some other dominant college team. "The question isn't whether [dominant college team] could beat [worst NFL team], the question is whether you could sign all the [dominant college team]'s players on a single NFL team and stay under the salary cap."

They’d all be on rookie deals. That’d give you tons of cap space.

[Snarky_Kong]

Yeah, signing one college team to pro contracts would be trivial. Baker Mayfield's cap hit is only $6M. You'd have a dozen people that take up $50M of salary cap and then 40 people on the league minimum.

You'd almost certainly be able to sign anyone from any team in the NCAA and stay under the cap. The current salary cap works out to an average of ~$3.3M per player. Which is roughly the salary hit of Roquan Smith, the #8 draft pick this year.

[RickJay]

I would be impressed if Alabama lost by fewer than sixty points, assuming the NFL team didn't stop trying at halftime.

Football is won and lost at the line, and the NFL lines would just steamroll them, every single down.

[jaycat]

Well I guess I got my answer, thanks all. But watching the Skins today, I wouldn't have thought they could have beaten William and Mary.

[dalej42]

The Redskins stunk up the field today but they’re far from the worst team in the league. The Cardinals and the Raiders are far worse. Still, any NFL team will crush any NCAA team.

[russian heel]

It’s a bad take done over and over. I remember when the 76ers won 10 games a few years ago a crack about Kentucky beating them. The worst NFL or NBA team on their WORST day would still destroy the #1 ranked team in the NCAA on their best day. To think otherwise is absolutely ridiculous.


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[Velocity]

I'd like to see this be a regular exhibition game annually - worst NFL team vs. NCAAF champs. But there'd be no meaningful incentive for either side to risk their health this way, except maybe some promise of big money involved.

[Bijou Drains]

Originally Posted by Velocity

I'd like to see this be a regular exhibition game annually - worst NFL team vs. NCAAF champs. But there'd be no meaningful incentive for either side to risk their health this way, except maybe some promise of big money involved.

there used to be an preseason game of Super Bowl champs vs. college all stars (who had just graduated) . pretty sure SB champs won every game.

[Ellis Dee]

Originally Posted by Velocity

I'd like to see this be a regular exhibition game annually - worst NFL team vs. NCAAF champs. But there'd be no meaningful incentive for either side to risk their health this way, except maybe some promise of big money involved.

That would be awesome, especially if they did it the week before the Superbowl. NFL team with the #1 draft pick vs the college champion.

I'd even let them both play by their own rules: College team gets their huge roster and only needs 1 foot down for a completed catch, NFL team only has 46 players dressed and needs 2 feet down for a catch.

I envision it going something like this:

Raiders get the ball first:
Run for 12, run for 6, run for 19, run for 16, run for touchdown!

Alabama gets the ball:
Tackle for a loss (run). Tackle for a loss (screen pass). Sack! Punt blocked!

etc...


Football is a game won in the trenches, and the sheer domination of NFL interior linemen over their college counterparts would be devastating.

[iiandyiiii]

Originally Posted by Ellis Dee

That would be awesome, especially if they did it the week before the Superbowl. NFL team with the #1 draft pick vs the college champion.

I'd even let them both play by their own rules: College team gets their huge roster and only needs 1 foot down for a completed catch, NFL team only has 46 players dressed and needs 2 feet down for a catch.

I envision it going something like this:

Raiders get the ball first:
Run for 12, run for 6, run for 19, run for 16, run for touchdown!

Alabama gets the ball:
Tackle for a loss (run). Tackle for a loss (screen pass). Sack! Punt blocked!

etc...


Football is a game won in the trenches, and the sheer domination of NFL interior linemen over their college counterparts would be devastating.

Yep. Just think about how much rookies tend to struggle in the NFL for the first few games -- even the best ones. Now take away a year or two experience from some of them (the sophmore and junior starters) and the lack of an NFL-caliber training camp and put them against a professional team of mostly former college stars with a few to several years of NFL experience. It would be utter domination.

Alabama might have five or six players who are capable of magically transporting onto a bad NFL roster and starting right away at the mediocre-starter level, sans training camp and any NFL experience. But that's about it. Even their best players are unlikely to be "good NFL players" in their very first NFL game.

[RickJay]

I mean, we've had conversations before about what would happen if an NFL team played a CFL team. The consensus is clear; the NFL team would annihilate them.

A CFL team would destroy an NCAA team. The CFL team is largely made of the guys who might not be NFL material but were still some of the best players on their NCAA squads, and., of course, are now older and stronger.

[whitetho]

Originally Posted by Bijou Drains

there used to be an preseason game of Super Bowl champs vs. college all stars (who had just graduated) . pretty sure SB champs won every game.

The Chicago College All-Star Game was held from 1934 to 1976. According to Wikipedia: "In the 42 College All-Star Games, the defending pro champions won 31, the All-Stars won nine, and two were ties." However, the last time the college team won was in 1963, the pros won the last 12 in a row, and people--including many of the players--had lost interest.

[enalzi]

Originally Posted by whitetho

The Chicago College All-Star Game was held from 1934 to 1976. According to Wikipedia: "In the 42 College All-Star Games, the defending pro champions won 31, the All-Stars won nine, and two were ties." However, the last time the college team won was in 1963, the pros won the last 12 in a row, and people--including many of the players--had lost interest.

I'd like to see a modern version. College All-Stars vs. a combination of the worst starters in the NFL.

[jaycat]

Originally Posted by whitetho

The Chicago College All-Star Game was held from 1934 to 1976. According to Wikipedia: "In the 42 College All-Star Games, the defending pro champions won 31, the All-Stars won nine, and two were ties." However, the last time the college team won was in 1963, the pros won the last 12 in a row, and people--including many of the players--had lost interest.

I see the Redskins managed to lose two of those as well.

[zombywoof]

Years ago I had a boss who played for a couple of seasons in the NFL as an offensive lineman - he said the jump from college (Stanford, where he played with John Elway) to pro was huge, like the jump from high school to college - everyone is just bigger/stronger/faster.

[MadTheSwine]

No

[russian heel]

Originally Posted by whitetho

The Chicago College All-Star Game was held from 1934 to 1976. According to Wikipedia: "In the 42 College All-Star Games, the defending pro champions won 31, the All-Stars won nine, and two were ties." However, the last time the college team won was in 1963, the pros won the last 12 in a row, and people--including many of the players--had lost interest.

Before the early 60s the NFL was barely, sometimes not even a step up from college football. It’s was only when real TV money came in and salaries went up that more college players were incentivized to play pro ball than get better paying regular jobs.


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[russian heel]

Originally Posted by zombywoof

Years ago I had a boss who played for a couple of seasons in the NFL as an offensive lineman - he said the jump from college (Stanford, where he played with John Elway) to pro was huge, like the jump from high school to college - everyone is just bigger/stronger/faster.

To put in perspective, there’s about 120 NCAAF FBS teams and 230ish draft spots every year. Say an average of 2000 of those players become draft eligible each year. Of those drafted let’s say half make it to the NFL.

I know math is not perfect but that adds up to 3% of all draft eligible players making the NFL that year. And that’s not counting smaller FCS teams. Even if I’m off, it’s still a very low number.

It’s like being the valedictorian of your High School and getting accepted to an Ivy League school: where it turns out, everyone else is a valedictorian too.


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[F. U. Shakespeare]

Originally Posted by jaycat

Well I guess I got my answer, thanks all. But watching the Skins today, I wouldn't have thought they could have beaten William and Mary.

To steal from an old Milton Berle joke, "Only if they let Mary play".

[whitetho]

Originally Posted by F. U. Shakespeare

To steal from an old Milton Berle joke, "Only if they let Mary play".

I've actually heard another William and Mary football joke. I remember a comedian years ago mentioning how it made the United States look bad to its enemies whenever it was reported that William and Mary had beaten Army.

[kenobi 65]

Originally Posted by F. U. Shakespeare

To steal from an old Milton Berle joke, "Only if they let Mary play".

Lou Holtz's first head coaching job was with William and Mary. Though he did actually get them into a bowl game during his tenure there, I've read him saying that the team suffered from "too many Marys, and not enough Williams."

[Velocity]

Originally Posted by Bijou Drains

there used to be an preseason game of Super Bowl champs vs. college all stars (who had just graduated) . pretty sure SB champs won every game.

Yeah but those were Super Bowl champs, the best in pro football. If it were the NFL's worst vs. college's best, it would be different - although, as others pointed out, in the old days there wasn't that great of a difference in quality between the pros and the college kids, and today's NFL's worst team would still wipe the floor with Alabama anyway.

Being a Crimson Tide hater, though, I rather like the idea of finally seeing someone beating them 59-0 though

[asahi]

Originally Posted by jaycat

Inspired by the Redskins currently down 34-0 to the mighty Giants at halftime. If the Skins aren't the worst team in the league right now, I don't know who is.

Could Alabama beat them? (or Clemson, Ohio State, Central Florida...)

Very, very unlikely. Only a few players on an elite college team are capable of playing on even a backup squad in the NFL.

[asahi]

Originally Posted by russian heel

To put in perspective, there’s about 120 NCAAF FBS teams and 230ish draft spots every year. Say an average of 2000 of those players become draft eligible each year. Of those drafted let’s say half make it to the NFL.

I know math is not perfect but that adds up to 3% of all draft eligible players making the NFL that year. And that’s not counting smaller FCS teams. Even if I’m off, it’s still a very low number.

It’s like being the valedictorian of your High School and getting accepted to an Ivy League school: where it turns out, everyone else is a valedictorian too.


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Good points above.

Also, consider where the game is decided: on the lines.

Even if you have a 'terrible' team by NFL standards, all of these players were selected and evaluated by pro scouts. If the Crimson Tide were playing the equivalent of, say, the 2017 Cleveland Browns, as bad the Browns are (were), the Tide would still be facing offensive and defensive lines the likes of which they've never seen. Bigger, stronger, faster, and probably better coached, and experienced at dealing with elite linemen on the other side. The defense would most likely stuff the running game and Tua would be running for his life. A team that's used to running up 50-point margins of victory against FBS squads and 30-point margins against other SEC teams would find it challenging to move the ball at all.

It's also worth pointing out that as historically bad as the Browns were, they were still competitive. They still came close to winning games. They just couldn't make the right plays at the right time. But put a college team in the pros, and they probably wouldn't even be able to compete. They just wouldn't have the horses to run the race. Nick Saban's or Dabo Swinny's coaching wizardry might make it interesting on the first one or two possessions, but things would probably get ugly pretty quickly.

[Dale Sams]

On a really good day a college baseball team might beat a AAA baseball team.

We've talked about college basketball before (narf)

BUT...from my experience (without any real-life evidence to back it up. Meaning i don't think they play each other) I DO maintain a US college soccer powerhouse would be able to hang with a second (if lucky) or third tier English team....at least in my day when the college team were some serious athletes and the English teams were smoking in the tunnels before the matches and having a pint at half-time.

[bump]

Originally Posted by asahi

Good points above.

Also, consider where the game is decided: on the lines.

Even if you have a 'terrible' team by NFL standards, all of these players were selected and evaluated by pro scouts. If the Crimson Tide were playing the equivalent of, say, the 2017 Cleveland Browns, as bad the Browns are (were), the Tide would still be facing offensive and defensive lines the likes of which they've never seen. Bigger, stronger, faster, and probably better coached, and experienced at dealing with elite linemen on the other side.

Another way of looking at it is that ALL FIVE of the Browns' offensive linemen will probably be at least the size and caliber of the best guy on the Alabama line. And on the other side of the ball, ALL SEVEN of the linemen/linebackers will be as good or better than the best guys in those positions on the Alabama team.

Chances are, they'll probably be better (more experienced in a better league, and better coached), and probably stronger/faster as well.

[russian heel]

Originally Posted by Dale Sams

On a really good day a college baseball team might beat a AAA baseball team.

We've talked about college basketball before (narf)

BUT...from my experience (without any real-life evidence to back it up. Meaning i don't think they play each other) I DO maintain a US college soccer powerhouse would be able to hang with a second (if lucky) or third tier English team....at least in my day when the college team were some serious athletes and the English teams were smoking in the tunnels before the matches and having a pint at half-time.

I THINK college baseball teams may have beaten Major League teams in Spring Training. Baseballs a different animal, no way that happens in a 7 game series.


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[Clawdio]

Late to the game but:
An NFL team would destroy Alabama, it would not be competitive.

Even if we took the current Alabama roster and put them in a time chamber to give the 18-22 year olds five years of weight lifting, body maturing, practice time.. they'd still get beat because as others have pointed out, the vast majority of the team will never be good enough to play in the NFL anyway.

[Anglachel]

Originally Posted by Clawdio

Late to the game but:
An NFL team would destroy Alabama, it would not be competitive.

Even if we took the current Alabama roster and put them in a time chamber to give the 18-22 year olds five years of weight lifting, body maturing, practice time.. they'd still get beat because as others have pointed out, the vast majority of the team will never be good enough to play in the NFL anyway.

Looking at the whole roster, that is likely true. However, take the starting 22 of Alabama and I bet the majority play in the NFL.

[Quintas]

Originally Posted by Velocity

I'd like to see this be a regular exhibition game annually - worst NFL team vs. NCAAF champs. But there'd be no meaningful incentive for either side to risk their health this way, except maybe some promise of big money involved.

It would also be kind of embarrasing to the NFL team. I'm sure the worst team realizes they are a bad team, but such an exhibition game sounds like making the players publicly wear a dunce cap.

[Velocity]

Originally Posted by Quintas

It would also be kind of embarrasing to the NFL team. I'm sure the worst team realizes they are a bad team, but such an exhibition game sounds like making the players publicly wear a dunce cap.

True, good point.

But back on the OP topic, wonder how many players would have to be removed from the NFL team to even the odds. Maybe 9 NFLers vs. 11 college players makes it exactly even?

[Asuka]

I always wondered what would happen if you had the worst NFL team take on the best NCAA team but make it so it's flag football rules and you heavily penalize excessive force.

[hajario]

Originally Posted by Asuka

I always wondered what would happen if you had the worst NFL team take on the best NCAA team but make it so it's flag football rules and you heavily penalize excessive force.

They are still much bigger and much faster and have more experience. It would be a blow out.

[OldGuy]

Originally Posted by Anglachel

Looking at the whole roster, that is likely true. However, take the starting 22 of Alabama and I bet the majority play in the NFL.

Last year 12 Alabama players were drafted and that was a record. I relize a few people make the NFL undrafted, but I suspect more drafted players never play an NFL game.

https://rolltide.com/news/2018/4/28/...nfl-draft.aspx

[kenobi 65]

Originally Posted by OldGuy

Last year 12 Alabama players were drafted and that was a record. I relize a few people make the NFL undrafted, but I suspect more drafted players never play an NFL game.

https://rolltide.com/news/2018/4/28/...nfl-draft.aspx

In the case of those Alabama players, ten out of the 12 made NFL rosters, which is a pretty good hit rate; only the two drafted in the seventh round failed to stick (and even those two are currently on practice squads).

But, even then, of those 12 draftees, seven were drafted in round 4 or later, and players who get drafted that late often wind up as reserves, if they do make a roster at all (and that looks to be the case with most of these players).

So, what we wind up with here was a half-dozen or so seniors* from that Alabama team who were good enough to start in the NFL as rookies (and I'm including their punter there, who is now the Packers' punter). To that, we could likely add a few underclassmen who are probably good enough to play (possibly even start) in the NFL without more seasoning in college.

* - not every player who enters the draft is a senior, I recognize, but that's usually the case.