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  #851  
Old 10-10-2018, 07:46 AM
amarone amarone is offline
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Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
But he's using it in a different way from the way we do. We use 4SF to find or avoid a NT contract. That it forces partner to bid is enough. When we become more advanced players...
You said you could not see how FSF could ever be used as a game force. I sent you links showing how, and that it is common in the US. Played that way, FSF is much more than just to find or avoid a NT contract.

You can certainly play it differently, of course, and I presume that your way is the norm in Scotland.
  #852  
Old 10-10-2018, 07:47 AM
amarone amarone is offline
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A bidding query:

Partner passes, RHO bids 1S, and you overcall 1N (15+ points). Partner bids 2C. Is that Stayman or take-out?
Another vote for Stayman (and transfers are on also).
  #853  
Old 10-10-2018, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by amarone View Post
You said you could not see how FSF could ever be used as a game force. I sent you links showing how, and that it is common in the US. Played that way, FSF is much more than just to find or avoid a NT contract.

You can certainly play it differently, of course, and I presume that your way is the norm in Scotland.
You are, of course, quite correct. As I said upthread, there is much I need to learn.
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  #854  
Old 10-11-2018, 06:33 AM
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Regarding the S Qxxxx H AKxx D QJ9x C - problem: the first pass is automatic but I'm not sure what to do after partner's Two Clubs. With a fairish hand and three hearts, or with a good hand and only two hearts partner might have doubled. With a good hand and good clubs, he'd bid 3C. And surely he'd bid 2C, at least at matchpoints, with as little as - Qx Axxx Q9xxxxx. Partner's Two Clubs is not a strong bid. Therefore I'm not optimistic.

Reverse my clubs and diamonds and have partner bid 2D instead of 2C; and it would be an easy 2H bid we'd have a chance of finding a club fit. But whatever I bid on the actual hand, we may fail to find our fit anyway.

Make the actual hand slightly weaker 11 hcp instead of 12 and I'd pass. As is, I might feel obligated to bid, but I don't like it.
  #855  
Old 10-11-2018, 02:19 PM
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I'm relieved some other people are finding the S Qxxxx H AKxx D QJ9x C- hand a problem.

septimus - we play weak jump overcalls, so 3C would have shown a distributional hand with 6+ Clubs.
Which meant that my partner also had a bidding problem, because he held: S Kxx H x D KTxx C AKQxx (yes, we had 8 Spades between us and opponents had 8 Hearts!).
He chose to underbid 2C rather than show a 6th Club with 3C or Hearts by doubling.

I didn't think to bid 2S - playing Acol I think it would count as the Unassuming Cue Bid, showing Club support - so I bid 2D, hoping to hear 2H. Instead partner, trying to make up for the underbid, jumped to 4D. I chickened out and passed, which at least got us a positive score (4D made exactly, losing two Aces and a Spade ruff), but 3NT of course is cold.
  #856  
Old 10-11-2018, 05:45 PM
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hmmm... my clever (in hindsight only) 2H bid should pay off as partner will now bid 3NT and I might have deterred a heart lead.
  #857  
Old 10-11-2018, 07:37 PM
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And surely he'd bid 2C, at least at matchpoints, with as little as - Qx Axxx Q9xxxxx. Partner's Two Clubs is not a strong bid.
I disagree. 2C has to be a strongish bid as it's allowing the opener to bid again and thus find a fit in another suit. I would be expecting at least 11 HCP for an overcall at the 2 level. The hand you give would be bidding 3C, a weak jump overcall, if they bid at all (the opener might have 20 HCP).
  #858  
Old 10-11-2018, 07:55 PM
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I'm relieved some other people are finding the S Qxxxx H AKxx D QJ9x C- hand a problem.

septimus - we play weak jump overcalls, so 3C would have shown a distributional hand with 6+ Clubs.
Which meant that my partner also had a bidding problem, because he held: S Kxx H x D KTxx C AKQxx ...
He chose to underbid 2C rather than show a 6th Club with 3C or Hearts by doubling.
Surely 3C isn't a weak jump overcall in the pass-out chair(*). 3C is wrong with only five clubs, but you have a good 5-bagger and 3C might be least of evils. It is the way to Three No Trump! (Remember to say "Sorry, pard; I had a spade in with my clubs!" )

* - that webpage says 3C shows an 8-trick hand. Shouldn't, say, 7 tricks be quite enough? True, the hand would still be almost a trick light.

(Quartz had Qxxxx on his recent hand and I asked him if he had the Eight-spot. I'd ask you the exact same question for a different reason! Does it look like you probably have spades doubly stopped?)
  #859  
Old 10-12-2018, 05:08 AM
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I disagree. 2C has to be a strongish bid as it's allowing the opener to bid again and thus find a fit in another suit. I would be expecting at least 11 HCP for an overcall at the 2 level. The hand you give would be bidding 3C, a weak jump overcall, if they bid at all (the opener might have 20 HCP).
As Septimus has emphasised - 2C is in the protective (or balancing) seat. 'Rules' you may have for what an overcall / take-out double / 1NT bid looks like need to be given more latitude here as partner will often be under pressure to find a bid to protect you. Goes without saying that any action taken can be lighter in terms of hcp strength.
  #860  
Old 10-12-2018, 11:52 AM
amarone amarone is offline
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Regarding the S Qxxxx H AKxx D QJ9x C - problem: the first pass is automatic but I'm not sure what to do after partner's Two Clubs.
I would pass also, but you can make a takeout double if you play equal level conversion (which I do). Then a double promises nothing in clubs and if partner bids clubs, you bid 2D which means "I don't have clubs; I have hearts and diamonds". It is more commonly used with hands that are 4/5+ in the red suits so you do not have to overcall 2D and risk losing the heart suit.

I don't know what to do in response to 2C. 2S would show a club raise, 2D/H show a longer suit. 2NT could play very badly with a void in partner's suit. I think I might just pass before we get into too much trouble, albeit having seen the hand, I know that this is not a successful choice.
  #861  
Old 10-12-2018, 02:03 PM
merrick merrick is offline
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amarone That's a neat little gadget that's worth knowing about.
I wasn't happy about bidding 2D either - it's asking to end up in 3D on a 4-3 fit - but nothing else looks better.
Seeing both hands, it's easy to find bad sequences that end up in 3NT - e.g. (1S) P - Dbl 3H - 3NT, but less easy to see good ones.

septimus You're right that 3C can't be a "true" weak jump - even at matchpoints no-one sane would jump to 3C on a 6-9 count opposite a passing partner when they could just pass opponents out in a partscore - so in the balancing seat it's more of an intermediate, say 10-14 with a 6-card suit. But the principle applies - the jump shows additional clubs not additional points. With a strong 1-suiter you double first and then bid your suit.

And while 3C is the gate to 3NT, with a singleton Heart and unsupported KS under the Spade bidder, it's far from clear that you want to be aiming for 3NT! Yes, opponents are limited, but it's entirely possible that partner has something like H Kxxxx and nothing outside, in which case 3C leads to bad places.
  #862  
Old 10-17-2018, 09:28 AM
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My takeout doubles definitely emphasize pattern. What if the bidding escalates quickly and partner has to guess your shape at a high level? I'd much rather double with 9 hcp if the pattern is right than double with a singleton in an unbid suit.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On another matter, please assess the blame on the following bad board:

IMPS; both vulnerable
♠ Q53
K7
AQT8652
♣ T

♠ K42
A86
K97
♣ K873

S.......W.......N.......E
-........-........-........Pass
1♣......Pass....1......1♠
Pass....Pass....2......2♠
Pass....Pass....3......Pass
Pass....3......Pass....Pass
Pass
Club Ace is in West, so Five Diamonds probably fails even if opponents neglect to take their spade ruff. But Three No Trump makes (though could be beaten if South didn't have the Seven of Clubs!) In hindsight I wish I'd bid 1NT or 2D over 1S, but is Pass so wrong?

My partner chastised me: "I bid diamonds three times. Why didn't you bid 3NT?"

I felt like I had a nice minimum and I was sorry I never made an encouraging sound. But I thought partner was probably much weaker than this. Was I too timid?

~~~~~~~~~~~

My partner is a good player; you guys may get a distorted view because I often post his bidding "errors."

One difference between partner and I: I feel like I'm doing well to follow ordinary textbook evaluation; partner approaches each hand from first principles. "I saw too many red-suit losers" might be his answer when I ask why he didn't make an obvious raise. Sometimes his way works out, sometimes not.
  #863  
Old 10-17-2018, 10:23 AM
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septimus - sorry have to agree with your partner... you have to bid 3NT over 3D. It isn't hard to imagine partner's diamond holding, and that gives you 8 tricks in NT. It is speculating a little, but that's what the game is about.
  #864  
Old 10-17-2018, 10:42 AM
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OK. Mea culpa. I was distracted that day, but might have missed the bid even when at my best.
  #865  
Old 10-17-2018, 11:05 AM
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BUT ... Partner's 2D was a passable bid, which I'd already correctly(?) passed. Thus trying for game seemed inconsistent.

Should partner have bid 3D (non-forcing) instead of 2D?
  #866  
Old 10-17-2018, 12:39 PM
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BUT ... Partner's 2D was a passable bid, which I'd already correctly(?) passed. Thus trying for game seemed inconsistent.

Should partner have bid 3D (non-forcing) instead of 2D?
Honestly wouldn't occur to me not to bid over 1S, prob be a support double for me but no problem with 1N. Did you think the spade stop was too skinny? Perhaps I'm resulting but that seems way too passive.

This is a question of style, though - unlike backing in with 3N which is just wrong IMHO. Having made your bed, you need to lie in it - give pard confidence that you don't change your hand evaluation for spurious reasons. You thought you didn't have a spade stop - fine, but nothing in your partner's bidding can have changed this view. Backing in with 3N might have worked on this hand but would be poor partnership bidding [although you could have reasonably bid diamonds at some point].
  #867  
Old 10-17-2018, 01:18 PM
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I think your first pass was ok, I would like to have something like KJx to bid 1NT.

As Busy Scissors said, a support double is ideal... you have a good hand for diamonds.

Definitely would have bid 2NT over 2S and partner will pull to 3D if the suit is headed by only the QJ
  #868  
Old 10-17-2018, 02:36 PM
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I would have opened 1N (weak) on your hand. That said, having opened 1C, I would bid 3D over partner's 2D. That way you are showing 3 card support. Also, you have 13 HCP, and if you play a strong NT (14-16 upwards) a rebid of 1NT is generally how you bid a weak 1N. But, having cover in all the suits apart from clubs, which you bid, your partner could have bid 3N himself. I also dislike your partner's rebid of 2D, which shows 6+ cards but a weak hand. Partner's hand is not weak with 11 HCP, a 7-card suit, and a singleton.

I would see the bidding going 1N (weak) - 3D - 3N - 4C (Gerber) - 4H (1 Ace) - 5D. 6D would be on if you had two aces and a king. Note that Gerber works here because partner can cope with a 4D response (zero aces), which he would pass.

After your opening of 1C and if you are using a strong NT I would see the bidding go 1C - P - 1D - 1S - 1N - P - 3N. Partner knows you haven't got 4 card support but have at least 2 card support, and with a long solid minor and entries you want to be in 3NT rather than 5 of the suit.
  #869  
Old 10-17-2018, 04:05 PM
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I'm with Quartz on this one - I can understand the first pass (you have nothing beyond what your opening has already shown, and partner will have the chance to bid again), but after partner's 2D I think you need to bid, either 2NT (that KS over the spade bidder is looking like a stop) or 3D.

Usually, 2D would be a weak bid - but partner has just heard you pass, and with a weak hand and no support from you he could just pass opponents out in 1S. 2D has to be constructive - maybe not looking for game but certainly for a making partscore - and you have Kxx in his suit. Certainly after he's gone on to 3D after hearing you pass twice you have to do something.
  #870  
Old 10-17-2018, 07:31 PM
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If partners black suits were reversed he would have an automatic 3D rebid when 1S came back around to him.
  #871  
Old 10-17-2018, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
On another matter, please assess the blame on the following bad board:

IMPS; both vulnerable
♠ Q53
K7
AQT8652
♣ T

♠ K42
A86
K97
♣ K873

S.......W.......N.......E
-........-........-........Pass
1♣......Pass....1......1♠
Pass....Pass....2......2♠
Pass....Pass....3......Pass
Pass....3......Pass....Pass
Pass
Club Ace is in West, so Five Diamonds probably fails even if opponents neglect to take their spade ruff. But Three No Trump makes (though could be beaten if South didn't have the Seven of Clubs!) In hindsight I wish I'd bid 1NT or 2D over 1S, but is Pass so wrong?

My partner chastised me: "I bid diamonds three times. Why didn't you bid 3NT?"

I felt like I had a nice minimum and I was sorry I never made an encouraging sound. But I thought partner was probably much weaker than this. Was I too timid?
You might bid 1NT over 1S, but pass is also reasonable. 2D is a serious underbid. I would bid that without QS, KH and with one fewer diamond. He is worth 3D. You can then take a shot at 3NT with a very likely 6D, 1S and 1H tricks, and partner has something else you hope will be the 9th trick. However, after partner bids just 2D, with your hand I would bid 3D over 2S. You have at least a 9-card fit, so the 3-level should be safe.
  #872  
Old 10-29-2018, 05:31 PM
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Been quiet round here lately...

I had another of those hands today:

You pick up a very nice-looking 18-count:

S: AQJxx
H: KJxxx
D:
C: AQJ

Partner (playing Acol) opens 1D first in hand and rebids 2D over your 1H/1S. Now what?

SPOILER:
Partner had a distributional minimum: S xx H Axx D AKxxxx C xxx. 6D was not a success...
  #873  
Old 10-29-2018, 06:42 PM
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I will bid 1S over 1D and jump to 3H or 3N over 2D. I am expecting partner to have 10-15 HCP and a 6 card diamond suit, so 6N might well be on. I would expect partner to bid 4H over 3H or pass 3N. I dislike the 3N bid because I have a void in partner's suit.
  #874  
Old 10-29-2018, 08:22 PM
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It doesn't really matter what you do. If partner didn't notice he has 14 cards, one of the opponents will notice having only 12 and call "Director!"

Assuming partner has a doubleton club, Six Hearts is far from hopeless. Club lead followed by club, club ruff, Diamond, diamond, spade finesse. If that loses you still have the 34% play in hearts. If the spade wins you give West a hard look and adopt some play that's better than 34%.
  #875  
Old 10-29-2018, 08:35 PM
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BTW, I'd be inclined to share the good news with partner right away by bidding Two Spades over One Diamond. This doesn't really waste bidding room since if I don't jump now, I'll want to jump at my next turn.

(I'd have guessed that immediate jump shift was the Acol bid ... but the only Acol text I ever read was older than me, and I'm no spring chicken.)
  #876  
Old 10-30-2018, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Assuming partner has a doubleton club, Six Hearts is far from hopeless.
Are you playing Duplicate or Teams? Because if you're playing Duplicate, 4H possibly +2 will get you the 60% score, but 6H possibly down 1 will get you 100% or 0%, so you should prefer the 60% score.

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BTW, I'd be inclined to share the good news with partner right away by bidding Two Spades over One Diamond.
I disagree. Your 1S response is unlimited and keeping it low allows your partner to describe her hand more fully. In this case she's limited by giving the bare minimum re-bid, but suppose she had a stronger rebid? Suppose she had a good hand? By jumping, you've limited her bidding space. If you jump, what does a rebid of 3D mean? And how would you respond to the sequence 1D - 1S - 3C? Or 1D - 2S - 4C? Suppose she has a hand that isn't strong but with 6 diamonds and four hearts: by jumping to 2S you've prevented her from bidding 2H.
  #877  
Old 10-30-2018, 07:04 AM
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I disagree. Your 1S response is unlimited and keeping it low allows your partner to describe her hand more fully. In this case she's limited by giving the bare minimum re-bid, but suppose she had a stronger rebid? Suppose she had a good hand? By jumping, you've limited her bidding space. If you jump, what does a rebid of 3D mean? And how would you respond to the sequence 1D - 1S - 3C? Or 1D - 2S - 4C? Suppose she has a hand that isn't strong but with 6 diamonds and four hearts: by jumping to 2S you've prevented her from bidding 2H.
While I agree with starting with 1S, I want to address some of the points you raise.

By jumping you have forced to game and therefore partner does not need to jump around with a strong hand.

1D - 2S - 3D would mean "I have long diamonds and no other suit to bid". It doesn't say anything about strength.

1D - 2S - 3C (you put 1S but I assume you mean 2S): I bid 3H. No reason not to continue bidding naturally. Partner could be 1354.

1D - 2S - 4C. As we are in a game-forcing auction, 4C is an unnecessary jump and is therefore a splinter. I cue bid my KH.

If partner has a hand with 6 diamonds and four hearts, but not strong, she cannot bid 2H over our 1S bid. That would be a reverse, showing 16+ points in Acol. However, she can bid 2D and then raise our 2H bid.
  #878  
Old 10-30-2018, 08:02 AM
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1D - 2S - 3C (you put 1S but I assume you mean 2S):
No, I meant 1S. Note that i follow it immediately afterwards with 1D - 2S. I am thinking of a hand strong in the minors (see below).

Quote:
1D - 2S - 4C. As we are in a game-forcing auction, 4C is an unnecessary jump and is therefore a splinter.
How then is partner going to show a strong 7-6, 6-6-1, or 6-5-2 hand? (I have held the first in a Goulash deal; I've also held a low-point 7-6 in another deal.)

BTW some people against whom I play would call an immediate response of 2S a splinter.
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Old 10-30-2018, 08:12 AM
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No, I meant 1S. Note that i follow it immediately afterwards with 1D - 2S. I am thinking of a hand strong in the minors (see below).
Yes, but you had 3C next in one and 4C in the other, so I thought you were looking for the difference between 3C and 4C.

1D - 1S - 3C = game forcing, 5+ diamonds, 4+ clubs.


Quote:
How then is partner going to show a strong 7-6, 6-6-1, or 6-5-2 hand? (I have held the first in a Goulash deal; I've also held a low-point 7-6 in another deal.)
As above, if partner bids 1S, then force with 3C and keep bidding clubs.

If partner bids 2S, we are in a game force, so no need to jump. Bid 3C, then 4C, then 5C until partner gets the message.

Quote:
BTW some people against whom I play would call an immediate response of 2S a splinter.
Strange people up north.
  #880  
Old 10-30-2018, 05:26 PM
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I really don't know whether I'd bid 1S or 2S with that hand. Heck! These days I barely know what I'll do with routine hands. I'd probably just bid 1S and find myself guessing again how best to proceed on the next round.

I'd certainly not jump with AQJ32, and even with AQJT9 the void in partner's suit is very unappetizing. A good rule of thumb, I think, is that the jumper should have a good prospect of finding a fit somewhere: a suit that's nearly self-sufficient, a fit for partner, or a very excellent two-suiter. We have none of those things. Yeah, a 2S jump is probably wrong.

But I'll defend the bid anyway! It sends a very clear message: "Partner; we are looking for slam. I don't care if you have a minimum. We'll find a trump suit somehow; but our primary mission is slam exploration." If you don't send this message now, you may not get another chance to send it. You'll have to take complete control, since partner will never guess how strong your hand is.

Last edited by septimus; 10-30-2018 at 05:29 PM.
  #881  
Old 10-30-2018, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by septimus View Post
If you don't send this message now, you may not get another chance to send it. You'll have to take complete control, since partner will never guess how strong your hand is.
I don't agree with this at all. Unless you use a limit bid then partner is going to bid again. Then you have a better picture of partner's hand and can jump. Partner having a balanced 16 HCP is one example where a jump bid could go very wrong. After opening an ACOL 1D, she can rebid 1N over your 1S to show a balanced 15-17 and then you can use Checkback Stayman and after a 2D response go straight to a Quantitative Bid of 4NT.
  #882  
Old 10-31-2018, 12:49 PM
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I really don't know whether I'd bid 1S or 2S with that hand. Heck! These days I barely know what I'll do with routine hands. I'd probably just bid 1S and find myself guessing again how best to proceed on the next round.

I'd certainly not jump with AQJ32, and even with AQJT9 the void in partner's suit is very unappetizing. A good rule of thumb, I think, is that the jumper should have a good prospect of finding a fit somewhere: a suit that's nearly self-sufficient, a fit for partner, or a very excellent two-suiter. We have none of those things. Yeah, a 2S jump is probably wrong.

But I'll defend the bid anyway! It sends a very clear message: "Partner; we are looking for slam. I don't care if you have a minimum. We'll find a trump suit somehow; but our primary mission is slam exploration." If you don't send this message now, you may not get another chance to send it. You'll have to take complete control, since partner will never guess how strong your hand is.
I don't play Soloway jump shifts but don't you have to be quite clear as to the sort of hand types they can cover, particularly with respect to partner's suit? Think a void in pard's suit isn't typically a candidate for a SJS and would lead to problems with accurate slam bidding.
I'd prob bid that hand
1D 1H (planning to reverse)
2D 2S
3H 3S to start a cue bidding sequence. Partner could then consider 3N non serious to show a minimum cooperative hand for slam but they're prob below that with this collection so should call it a day with a direct 4H. I have to respect that signoff - my monstrous hand has been downgraded to excellent with the mis-fitting diamond void so I don't think I can push on.

Last edited by Busy Scissors; 10-31-2018 at 12:53 PM.
  #883  
Old 10-31-2018, 01:57 PM
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I'd prob bid that hand
1D 1H (planning to reverse)
I disagree. If your suits are 4-card you signal this by responding up the line; you signal that your suits are better than 4 card by bidding the higher suit first.

BTW I've thought of an even better reason to not jump: suppose partner had a balanced hand of 18-19 points! Under ACOL the bidding would go 1D - 1S - 2N - 5N - 6N or 7N. If you jump, then you miss out on that.
  #884  
Old 10-31-2018, 03:09 PM
merrick merrick is offline
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Interesting. At the table, I thought like Busy Scissors and bid 1H, planning to reverse to show the extra strength. My partner was thinking more like Quartz with the result we never found the Heart fit. (Yes, partner was 2-3-6-2, sorry for the error).

1D - 1H
2D - 2S
2NT - 3C (probably an overbid)
3D - 3S
3NT - and then I really should have gritted my teeth and left him in it rather than push on. It's still a nice hand - and 3NT played his way looks horrible - but where's it going?
  #885  
Old 11-01-2018, 07:41 AM
Busy Scissors Busy Scissors is offline
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3D looks quite wrong in that sequence Merrick. The reverse shows 5H so partner has to reveal the fit.


Played a team game last night - did not have a card for 12 boards (defended 11) and not much for the 12 after. Steely defence saw us through.

Opps had one hand that was just a bit sad - my LHO held something close to

S AJXX
H AKQXX
D AXX
C X

and her partner opened one of a minor. 1m 1H 1S 4N 5S (2 with Q) back to my LHO. You have power, shape, a fit, a very good side suit, all controls plus the queen of trumps so your bid is what? 6S
Kindly mirrored at the other table by our teammates

I mention this because both players who subsided in 6 are actually pretty solid, I think that playing duplicate every week just makes grand bidding an area of weakness for a lot of club players as you rarely get a bad score for 6. But if you can't bid 7S with that hand you're not going to bid it ever.

Last edited by Busy Scissors; 11-01-2018 at 07:45 AM.
  #886  
Old 11-01-2018, 10:03 PM
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I don't understand the complete lack of love for a Six Heart contract on that huge 5-5-0-3 hand. It's better than 50% with any lead but an (unlikely) diamond. Not a great slam, but bidding it is hardly a disaster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Scissors View Post
The reverse shows 5H so partner has to reveal the fit.
I'm glad you posted this. I was getting confused. I always thought that showing the long suit first was the essential purpose of a reverse the inference about extra strength is just a side-effect.

That leaves the question: What to bid over 1D with AQxx - KQxx - Qx - xxx ? If you're unwilling to bid 3NT on the 2nd round with clubs unbid and unstopped, do you start with 1S over 1D?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I solicit comments on two disasters from my recent session:
(1) You open One Spade in 3rd-chair; partner (me) responds Two Diamonds; what, if anything, do you rebid with the following hand?
♠ AT743
Q854
2
♣ KJ3
My partner passes routinely, after opening 3rd-seat, with a full-strength opening hand and 4-card support for my major. But here he bid Two Hearts. I think this is exactly backwards. Raise when you can raise, if only to preempt the opponents. With the above hand shriek your weakness with a Pass!

I held six diamonds and a nifty 12 hcp (I might have opened a weak two); and jumped to a hopeless 3NT when the above hand hand rebid Two Hearts. (We open light, but my 12 had singleton KH and no Aces.)

(2) With nobody vulnerable you open One Spade with the following hand. After partner passes, RHO re-opens with Two Clubs. What do you call now?
♠ AKQJ852
K753
Q7
♣ -
Partner had Txx 9xxx Txx ATx. At some tables my hand opens Four Spades, LHO leads Ace and another Heart from x Ax KJxx Jxxxxx and a hopeless-looking game makes. (Without a Diamond opening lead, 4 Spades always makes by dropping the doubleton AH.) Once the auction goes 1S P P 2C we're destined for a bad board: LHO can't be stopped from raising his partner's clubs; Five Clubs succeeds with two finesses.

So my question is just for curiosity. I jumped to Three Spades at my second turn; we finished defending 5CX+5 and lost 11 imps. (5C undoubled still costs 9 imps.)

Partner startled me when he criticized my Three Spades: "Wouldn't 2S be enough? with a 7 and a half trick hand?" Well, would it? (And if he thought I had a better hand than this, why didn't he raise to Four Spades?)

And I've always wondered how people count tricks. I would call this at least eight-plus, not seven and a half.
  #887  
Old 11-02-2018, 05:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
That leaves the question: What to bid over 1D with AQxx - KQxx - Qx - xxx ?
You are 4-4 in the majors so you bid 1.

Quote:
I solicit comments on two disasters from my recent session:
(1) You open One Spade in 3rd-chair; partner (me) responds Two Diamonds; what, if anything, do you rebid with the following hand?
♠ AT743
Q854
2
♣ KJ3
With only 10 HCP and no good rebid I would have passed this hand.

Quote:
I held six diamonds and a nifty 12 hcp (I might have opened a weak two);
That's an opening 1 bid. I would have opened 1. Your partner would have responded 1♠ (having 5 spades) and over my 2 rebid (showing a weak hand without 4 spades and with 6 diamonds) passed.

Quote:
Partner startled me when he criticized my Three Spades: "Wouldn't 2S be enough? with a 7 and a half trick hand?" Well, would it?
I agree with your bid. You have length and strength, and you show that with a jump rebid. That said, on your hand I would be very tempted to open 4♠. Strengthen it only very slightly and I'd open 2♣ as I cannot afford partner to pass.
  #888  
Old 11-02-2018, 06:08 AM
Busy Scissors Busy Scissors is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
I don't understand the complete lack of love for a Six Heart contract on that huge 5-5-0-3 hand. It's better than 50% with any lead but an (unlikely) diamond. Not a great slam, but bidding it is hardly a disaster.



I'm glad you posted this. I was getting confused. I always thought that showing the long suit first was the essential purpose of a reverse the inference about extra strength is just a side-effect.

That leaves the question: What to bid over 1D with AQxx - KQxx - Qx - xxx ? If you're unwilling to bid 3NT on the 2nd round with clubs unbid and unstopped, do you start with 1S over 1D?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I solicit comments on two disasters from my recent session:
(1) You open One Spade in 3rd-chair; partner (me) responds Two Diamonds; what, if anything, do you rebid with the following hand?
♠ AT743
Q854
2
♣ KJ3
My partner passes routinely, after opening 3rd-seat, with a full-strength opening hand and 4-card support for my major. But here he bid Two Hearts. I think this is exactly backwards. Raise when you can raise, if only to preempt the opponents. With the above hand shriek your weakness with a Pass!

I held six diamonds and a nifty 12 hcp (I might have opened a weak two); and jumped to a hopeless 3NT when the above hand hand rebid Two Hearts. (We open light, but my 12 had singleton KH and no Aces.)

.
Passing forcing bids because one opened light is a matter for the authorities, Septimus - Major Crimes, Bridge Division (and this isn't even a light opener). Sounds like you had a very normal auction, there's a misfit brewing up but you took a shot at 3N that didn't work out - next board please.

Honestly it would be better to play that hand in 3NXX going off 5 then for your partner to have passed your 2D. Because the former is at least bridge, whereas the latter is not.
  #889  
Old 11-02-2018, 07:25 AM
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I was a passed hand. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. "Partner opened 3rd-chair."
  #890  
Old 11-02-2018, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
I was a passed hand. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. "Partner opened 3rd-chair."
Yes, but with 12 HCP and six diamonds you should not have passed.
  #891  
Old 11-02-2018, 07:54 AM
amarone amarone is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
And I've always wondered how people count tricks. I would call this at least eight-plus, not seven and a half.
I count the number of tricks I expect to make if partner has nothing and I get normal breaks. This hand is 7.5, plus a smidgin for hearts being 333 around the rest of the table.

4S is a poor contract. Even on a club lead so you can get a diamond away, you need hearts 3-2 with king onside: 34% The correct play is to lead up to the king, not playing small from hand twice trying to drop Ax, which is 27%

On everything else, I agree with Quartz's comments in post 887.
  #892  
Old 11-02-2018, 07:55 AM
Busy Scissors Busy Scissors is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
I was a passed hand. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. "Partner opened 3rd-chair."
My mistake Septimus, 2D not forcing then but your pard still has an easy 2H bid. Pass downgraded from major crimes to a parochial infringement.

Isn't there some Barry Crane aphorism about 2D never being the right contract at MPs?
  #893  
Old 11-02-2018, 08:16 AM
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I will admit that some of the recent responses surprise me. Do those insisting they'd open One Diamond with a hand they haven't even seen still make that bid knowing the actual hand?
♠ QJ
K
KJ9765
♣ Q985
(And BTW this was IMPs not MPs.)

Quote:
You are 4-4 in the majors so you bid 1.
I know what "up the line" means. Obviously I'm interested in thoughts about the rebid problem.

On the hand where your side has ten spades total and opponents have ten clubs, the important thing is to bid, not whether you actually make Four Spades! Google 'Law of Total Tricks.' (Seven out of nine pairs that took ten tricks in spades had the Heart Ace led. I shouldn't have complicated matters by mentioning a double-dummyish line.)
  #894  
Old 11-02-2018, 08:41 AM
Busy Scissors Busy Scissors is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
I will admit that some of the recent responses surprise me. Do those insisting they'd open One Diamond with a hand they haven't even seen still make that bid knowing the actual hand?
♠ QJ
K
KJ9765
♣ Q985
(And BTW this was IMPs not MPs.)


I'm closer to not opening that then not opening your pard's hand (which I would open any seat, any colour). I think I'd still open it in first seat but certainly wouldn't quibble with a pass. Some horrible honour distribution and it's the minors, plus you might get the chance to make an informative negative double if you hang fire. But bridge is a bidders game and it's also an optimist's game, it's shapely and if you hit a minor fit it will play well.
  #895  
Old 11-02-2018, 08:58 AM
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I'm old-fashioned. A minimum opener should have two "Quick Tricks." I'll occasionally stretch that down to 1 but this hand has only quick trick. I have no objection to opening Two (weak) Diamonds with this hand I might have bid that(except I was still distracted by the disaster on the previous hand? ).

So I agree that partner's hand, though only 10 hcp instead of 12, is a better opening. It has 2 quick tricks.

And Three No Trump became "hopeless" when the opening heart lead was won by RHO with Ace. If I had scored my King instead, the contract would have had a chance, though still a poor one.

What annoyed me about partner's bidding on was his inconsistency. He passes (after opening 3rd seat) when he has support for my suit, but bids here with a possible misfit. Do you agree this is backwards?
  #896  
Old 11-02-2018, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amarone View Post
4S is a poor contract.
But an opening bid of 4S is pre-emptive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
I will admit that some of the recent responses surprise me. Do those insisting they'd open One Diamond with a hand they haven't even seen still make that bid knowing the actual hand?
Yup, I'd bid 1 on that hand. That said, my rebid would be 2♣ because there are four clubs.

Remember that bidding is partly about telling your partner what you have. Here your 1 bid says, "Partner, I have a hand with opening points and I have at least four diamonds."
  #897  
Old 11-02-2018, 04:18 PM
merrick merrick is offline
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It's interesting how standards differ. Taking septimus's hand first in his hand (1) - I would never even consider opening 1D on QJ K KJ9xxx Q9xx. You don't have the high-card strength (singleton K is not worth 3HCP and neither is Q-J blank), your suit is full of holes and 1D pre-empts nothing. Half the time you're just giving opponents an easy way to show both majors with a take-out double.
It's worth a pre-emptive 2D third in hand, probably first as well, though I'd hesitate to open 2D vulnerable first in hand with such a feeble suit.

For the original question, I can sympathise with his partner. You've scrambled up a weak third-hand opening bid and partner passed as dealer. Barring a very lucky distribution, you're not making game even if partner has a fit, so once you've identified a plausible partscore, it makes sense to stay there. Unless you're playing rubber, 3H is no better than 2.
In this case, of course, 2D is not a plausible partscore - it will likely score worse than just passing the hand out - you have a second suit you can show without going to the 3 level and just because partner has diamonds it doesn't mean he can't have 4 hearts or 3 spades. Even if he doesn't, 2S is likely no worse than 2D.
Of course, once in a while partner will have a maximum and punt a hopeless game. That's the price you pay for opening 10-counts.

On hand (2), you're too strong to open with a 4S pre-empt, plus you have 4 of the other major. After 1S-P-P-2C, I probably double (slightly light) to show the hearts. If partner bid 2D and it gets back to me I bid 2S (and 3S if I have to), if he bids 2H I probably just pass (though if he has something like x QJxx xxxx xxxx, 4H is actually pretty good). If LHO comes in with 3C and partner can say nothing the hand's clearly going nowhere and I'm happy to pass opponents out in a partscore. If opponents bid strongly, I have to decide if 5S down 3 is going to be worth it.

3S is a sort of between-stools bid - already too high if partner has nothing, yet it may not be pre-emptive enough to buy the contract if opponents have a fit. And 2S does show extra strength after partner has passed 1S.

Last edited by merrick; 11-02-2018 at 04:19 PM.
  #898  
Old 11-02-2018, 05:32 PM
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K364 K364 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
...
Partner had Txx 9xxx Txx ATx...
I would always bid with this hand over partner's opening 1 of a major. Assuming 5 card major of course. I have played a lot of bridge, and timid bidding is not going to win the day.

Last edited by K364; 11-02-2018 at 05:33 PM.
  #899  
Old 11-02-2018, 11:08 PM
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I still don't understand the criticism of my 3S double-jump. It didn't keep them out of game, but it surely had a better chance of doing so than the timid 2S.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K364 View Post
Quote:
Partner had Txx 9xxx Txx ATx...
I would always bid with this hand over partner's opening 1 of a major. Assuming 5 card major of course. I have played a lot of bridge, and timid bidding is not going to win the day.
I try to be aggressive in many situations, but I would pass here. Sure, promote the aces and tens and call this 5 hcp, but you still have to subtract a point for 4-3-3-3 shape. In Acol, a 2-spade raise shows a 9-loser hand. This hand has 11 losers. Eleven with an E!

But if you do bid, we get to 4S, probably making as the cards lie, though even down 2 would be considerably better than watching them make 5CX.

May we agree that he should certainly have bid 4S when his RHO bid 4C over my 3S? I might then bid 5S over 5C which would have salvaged a few IMPs.
  #900  
Old 11-03-2018, 06:28 AM
amarone amarone is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
But an opening bid of 4S is pre-emptive.
I wasn't responding to your choice of 4S, I was responding to comments about 4S making. Having said that, I think the hand is far too strong to open 4S in 1st (or 2nd) seat. It might be worth a NAMYATS bid, if you play that.
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