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  #101  
Old 10-17-2018, 10:15 PM
SenorBeef SenorBeef is offline
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Originally Posted by Clawdio View Post
Another year, a new thread, and more whining about Hines Ward hits. I'm having deja vu. You guys know his last year of playing was 2011 right?
He's just the perfect example to use when you want to talk about dirty play being praised by tv talking heads.

Plus I'm just out of date. I don't want and rewatch games closely like I used to, so I'm not as familiar with the dirty habits of current players. Which may mean that they're a lot cleaner now, I don't know. But it's hard for Steelers fans to get high and mighty towards Bengals fans about dirty play when it's clear most of you are blind to your own, whether now or a few years ago.

Which isn't any defense of the Bengals. This is an easy argument for me: you both suck.
  #102  
Old 10-18-2018, 12:14 AM
SacFly SacFly is online now
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This is not the first time Burfict has tried to hurt Antonio Brown. That's why Pittsburgh is upset. Here's a nice one from 2016. He gave Brown a concussion here. Burfict's gonna Burfict. Be proud Cincy, he's your best linebacker.

Watch this and explain how it's a football play, please.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tfLncD3pGM
  #103  
Old 10-18-2018, 06:53 AM
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FoieGrasIsEvil FoieGrasIsEvil is offline
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Well, at least you got rid of Mitchell, Harrison and Shazier. That's two thirds of the Axis of Coolio right there.
  #104  
Old 10-18-2018, 09:31 PM
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Shazier.
Wow. Stay classy.
  #105  
Old 10-19-2018, 12:07 PM
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Wow. Stay classy.
Tell that to Giovanni Bernard.
  #106  
Old 10-19-2018, 12:50 PM
Clawdio Clawdio is offline
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Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil View Post
Tell that to Giovanni Bernard.
Just to be clear, is this a reference to a dirty hit in the 2015 playoffs*?

*In the same game where Burfict concussed Antonio Brown and then you and others pushed forward the rumor that Brown was somehow faking his concussion? And that Burfict's hit wasn't dirty because he used his shoulder instead of his helmet?

Link to the 13th Annual Steelers thread from 3 years ago because FGIE insists on bringing it up again and again year after year, where we originally discussed the dirty play in that game. Weird that I don't see any Steeler fans using the phrase "GOOD STILLER FOOTBALL" and praising Shazier, but I do see multiple Steeler fans calling the Shazier hit dirty, and that he should be disciplined if he continues to hit people like that. Yet here we are... again... because HINES WARD.... blah blah blah.... 15 years ago.

Last edited by Clawdio; 10-19-2018 at 12:50 PM.
  #107  
Old 10-19-2018, 01:09 PM
Hamlet Hamlet is offline
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Let's play a guessing game:

Most penalized team in the NFL this year?
Most penalized team in the NFL for Unnecessary Roughness this year?
Most penalized team in the NFL for Unnecessary Roughness in 2017?
Most penalized team in the NFL for Unnecessary Roughness in 2016?
Last time the Steelers were not in the top 15 most penalized team for Unnecessary Roughness?
  #108  
Old 10-19-2018, 01:37 PM
SenorBeef SenorBeef is offline
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... and adjust that for how much the refs fucking hate calling penalties on the Steelers to figure out how much they're actually doing it.
  #109  
Old 10-19-2018, 02:18 PM
Clawdio Clawdio is offline
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Originally Posted by Hamlet View Post
Let's play a guessing game:

Most penalized team in the NFL this year?
Most penalized team in the NFL for Unnecessary Roughness this year?
Most penalized team in the NFL for Unnecessary Roughness in 2017?
Most penalized team in the NFL for Unnecessary Roughness in 2016?
Last time the Steelers were not in the top 15 most penalized team for Unnecessary Roughness?
Cool game. But I didn't guess, I used NFLPenalties.com:

1. The Steelers are the most penalized team. Those 12 holding penalties are really hurting them.
2. The Steelers lead the league with 6. 11 other teams have at least 3. I suspect this will even out over the course of the year.
3. The Steelers had 13. 11 other teams had at least 8
4. Again the Steelers had 13. And again at 11 other teams had at least 8.
5. The answer is perhaps 2013 where they are tied with 2 other teams for 15th. but if you wont accept that one, in 2012 they had only 1 unnecessary roughness penalty.

In the 9 years of 2009-2017, the league average is 5.94 unnecessary roughness penalties per year. Over that same 9 years the Steelers have averaged 7.77. So over 9 years the Steelers have averaged 1.8 unnecessary roughness penalties per year more than the league average. Its almost like you just have an ax to grind against the Steelers more than anything, or you just get really worked up over 1-2 more penalties per year than the league average over a decade.

Though admittedly, in 2016 & 2017 they did lead the league (the only years they lead the league) with unnecessary roughness penalties with less then 1 per game when the league average was a lot closer to 1 every 2 games.
  #110  
Old 10-19-2018, 04:52 PM
Clawdio Clawdio is offline
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I was bored so I looked up the stats on unnecessary roughness penalties for other teams in the division over the nine year period of 2009-2017 (the website only has info going back to 2009):

Unnecessary Roughness penalties per year for 2009-2017:
Ravens - 8.22
Steelers - 7.77
Bengals - 6.88
League Average - 5.94
Browns - 4.55

Further, in the 9 years 2009-2017, comparing unnecessary roughness penalties against the leave average for that year:
Steelers: less than the league average 4 times (2009, 2011, 2012, 2013).
Bengals: less than the league average 4 times (2009, 2010, 2011, 2012).
Ravens: less than the league average 3 times (2010, 2011, 2017)
Browns: less than the league average 8 times (every year but 2010)

Aside from proving that the Browns are indeed purveyors of truth, justice and the American way... stats on unnecessary roughness penalties show that the rest of the division is pretty average over the last 9 years. And for some reason I find this website super fascinating. I mean, how else would I know that Joe Thomas was called for 4 offensive holding penalties in 2014 but that 2 of them were declined.
  #111  
Old 10-19-2018, 08:44 PM
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FoieGrasIsEvil FoieGrasIsEvil is offline
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Originally Posted by Clawdio View Post
Just to be clear, is this a reference to a dirty hit in the 2015 playoffs*?

*In the same game where Burfict concussed Antonio Brown and then you and others pushed forward the rumor that Brown was somehow faking his concussion? And that Burfict's hit wasn't dirty because he used his shoulder instead of his helmet?

Link to the 13th Annual Steelers thread from 3 years ago because FGIE insists on bringing it up again and again year after year, where we originally discussed the dirty play in that game. Weird that I don't see any Steeler fans using the phrase "GOOD STILLER FOOTBALL" and praising Shazier, but I do see multiple Steeler fans calling the Shazier hit dirty, and that he should be disciplined if he continues to hit people like that. Yet here we are... again... because HINES WARD.... blah blah blah.... 15 years ago.
I keep bringing it up year after year because it's an issue between these two teams year after year. And it's pronounced "Futbawl", not "football". It helps pronouncing it if you slacken your jaw and adopt the nom de guerre "Cletus".



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamlet View Post
Let's play a guessing game:

Most penalized team in the NFL this year?
Most penalized team in the NFL for Unnecessary Roughness this year?
Most penalized team in the NFL for Unnecessary Roughness in 2017?
Most penalized team in the NFL for Unnecessary Roughness in 2016?
Last time the Steelers were not in the top 15 most penalized team for Unnecessary Roughness?
*Arnold Horshack*

"Ooooh, oooh, oooh, I know!"

/Arnold Horshack

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Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
... and adjust that for how much the refs fucking hate calling penalties on the Steelers to figure out how much they're actually doing it.
And this is the heart of the matter in many respects and in my opinion. There are so many instances where I have seen dirty play by the Steelers and it not be called. You know how Madden used to say "Hey, you could really call holding on every play"? Then think of that and now the fact that the Steelers lead the league in holding penalties...that were actually called. And that's just holding penalties.
  #112  
Old 10-19-2018, 08:53 PM
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And yes, my team (and ALL NFL teams are guilty of this sometimes) has committed many plays that could be interpreted as dirty. Vontaze Burfict is a dirty player...so was the aforementioned Hines Ward. And Ryan Shazier. And Gay. And Mitchell. And Harrison. Heck, the Steelers had dirty players back when dirty play was allowed.
  #113  
Old 10-19-2018, 11:56 PM
Isosleepy Isosleepy is offline
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And out of those, Burfict is the one still playing. Letís fix that.
  #114  
Old 10-20-2018, 02:15 AM
Chisquirrel Chisquirrel is offline
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Heck, the Steelers had dirty players back when dirty play was allowed.
And that's what you're trying to whatabout with.
  #115  
Old 10-20-2018, 02:18 AM
Chisquirrel Chisquirrel is offline
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Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil View Post
And this is the heart of the matter in many respects and in my opinion. There are so many instances where I have seen dirty play by the Steelers and it not be called. You know how Madden used to say "Hey, you could really call holding on every play"? Then think of that and now the fact that the Steelers lead the league in holding penalties...that were actually called. And that's just holding penalties.
It's the same thing said about the Green Bay Packers. And the New England Patriots. And any other team that has tended to dominate their division for significant periods of time. And it's fed only by confirmation bias and tribalism, not statistics.
  #116  
Old 10-20-2018, 06:33 AM
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And out of those, Burfict is the one still playing. Letís fix that.
I'm fine with that...YOU be the one to tell him.

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Originally Posted by Chisquirrel View Post
And that's what you're trying to whatabout with.
I'm not "whatabouting" anything. These are demonstrable actions.

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Originally Posted by Chisquirrel View Post
It's the same thing said about the Green Bay Packers. And the New England Patriots. And any other team that has tended to dominate their division for significant periods of time. And it's fed only by confirmation bias and tribalism, not statistics.
No, it's pretty much just the Stealers and the Patsies. Fed by confirmation bias? You mean like the factual basis under which opinions are formed that show the Stealers are the most penalized team in the NFL? Again? Hmmmmm,
  #117  
Old 10-20-2018, 08:35 AM
Chisquirrel Chisquirrel is offline
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No, it's pretty much just the Stealers and the Patsies. Fed by confirmation bias? You mean like the factual basis under which opinions are formed that show the Stealers are the most penalized team in the NFL? Again? Hmmmmm,
Wait, so the fact that the Steelers are the most penalized team in the NFL (citation required) proves that refs don't call penalties on the Steelers?

As for Hamlet's guessing game, I'd wager he'd have no problem with people labeling the Packers dirty as hell because they lead the league in roughing the passer penalties this year as well? But then, Cincinnati's second...but hey, it's not like anyone is cherry-picking specific penalties that support their narrative or anything.
  #118  
Old 10-20-2018, 09:27 AM
Hamlet Hamlet is offline
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As for Hamlet's guessing game, I'd wager he'd have no problem with people labeling the Packers dirty as hell because they lead the league in roughing the passer penalties this year as well?
This year? With the issues the NFL has with the rule changes and the inanity of the roughing the passer calls? Yeah, I'd probably have a problem picking that one penalty out as a good indicator of "dirtyness" this year.
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Originally Posted by Chisquirrel
But then, Cincinnati's second...but hey, it's not like anyone is cherry-picking specific penalties that support their narrative or anything.
I was simply pointing out facts. You can draw your own conclusion from them. If you want to maintain that the Steelers aren't dirty despite the fact they've led the league in unnecessary roughness penalties the last 3 years, have at it.
  #119  
Old 10-20-2018, 05:42 PM
Chisquirrel Chisquirrel is offline
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And Burfict was just fined over $100k for separate hits that should have been unnecessary roughness penalties. Tell me again how the Steelers are dirty.
  #120  
Old 10-20-2018, 07:58 PM
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FoieGrasIsEvil FoieGrasIsEvil is offline
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And Burfict was just fined over $100k for separate hits that should have been unnecessary roughness penalties. Tell me again how the Steelers are dirty.
Then why weren't they flagged, nor was he suspended? I think the NFL likes the drama and TV ratings this game generates. I am serious.

Burfict is a dirty player though.
  #121  
Old 10-20-2018, 10:35 PM
Hamlet Hamlet is offline
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And Burfict was just fined over $100k for separate hits that should have been unnecessary roughness penalties. Tell me again how the Steelers are dirty.
Really? The fact Burfict is a headhunting asshole of the highest order and should be kicked out of the league means the Steelers aren't dirty?

That's some impressive Steeler fan logic right there.
  #122  
Old 10-20-2018, 10:44 PM
Chisquirrel Chisquirrel is offline
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Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil View Post
Then why weren't they flagged, nor was he suspended? I think the NFL likes the drama and TV ratings this game generates. I am serious.

Burfict is a dirty player though.
This may be shocking, but not all penalties are caught in real time. Burfict is already toeing the line for suspension a whole two games after coming off one. Since we've agreed Burfict is a pile of shit, can we stop crying about how the "Stealers are so mean and commit so many penalties that they're called for the most but they commit even more even though they rank middle of the pack league-wide unless you only look at one specific violent penalty and ignore all others and waaaaaaaaaaah"?

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Originally Posted by Hamlet View Post
That's some impressive Steeler fan logic right there.
That you still feel the need to insist I'm a Steeler fan when there are multiple threads where I discuss my fandom is obtuse at best.

This entire side discussion started because someone pointed out Vontaze Burfict is a piece of shit, and certain Bengals fans got pissy about it, resorting to crying about Steelers players from when football was allowed to be more violent.
  #123  
Old 10-21-2018, 02:16 PM
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This may be shocking, but not all penalties are caught in real time. Burfict is already toeing the line for suspension a whole two games after coming off one. Since we've agreed Burfict is a pile of shit, can we stop crying about how the "Stealers are so mean and commit so many penalties that they're called for the most but they commit even more even though they rank middle of the pack league-wide unless you only look at one specific violent penalty and ignore all others and waaaaaaaaaaah"?



That you still feel the need to insist I'm a Steeler fan when there are multiple threads where I discuss my fandom is obtuse at best.

This entire side discussion started because someone pointed out Vontaze Burfict is a piece of shit, and certain Bengals fans got pissy about it, resorting to crying about Steelers players from when football was allowed to be more violent.
Nobody is "crying". And "when football was allowed to be more violent" ran through just last year.
  #124  
Old 10-21-2018, 09:55 PM
Airman Doors, USAF Airman Doors, USAF is offline
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So barring a monster comeback here Pittsburgh loses no ground whatsoever on a bye week. I’m loving this.
  #125  
Old 10-22-2018, 01:09 PM
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If you want to maintain that the Steelers aren't dirty despite the fact they've led the league in unnecessary roughness penalties the last 3 years, have at it.
Its only 3 years if you count that they have the most this year through 6 games. We'll see if it evens out in 2018. In 2015 Baltimore led the league, and the Steelers 7th most in the league.

Also, kinda weird, but the Steelers have 6 unnecessary roughness penalties against them this year, and 4 of them came in the Tampa Bay game. I don't remember that game being dirty or violent, and i cant remember the penalties specifically, but I think 2 of them were ticky-tack roughing the passer calls (which notoriously went both ways in that game). The other two were on special teams oddly enough, but I'm struggling to find video of them.
  #126  
Old 10-22-2018, 04:18 PM
Clawdio Clawdio is offline
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Oops! my mistake, I thought the roughing the passer penalties were lumped in with the unnecessary roughness penalties in the penalty stats, but they are not!

Still weird, the Steelers have:
6 unnecessary roughness penalties, 4 were in the Tampa Bay game
3 roughing the passer penalties, 2 were in the Tampa Bay game

All together, the Steelers had 13 penalties in that game. Seems weird in a game they were winning 30-10 at halftime.
Last penalty stat (for now) the Steelers have had 58 penalties called against them and have been the beneficiary of 52 penalties. They are currently tied with Cleveland and Kansas City (???) for the most penalized team in football (though to be fair Cleveland and KC have both played 7 games, while the Steelers have only played 6)
  #127  
Old 10-22-2018, 04:20 PM
SenorBeef SenorBeef is offline
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Because of shitty enforcement, I would say that the amount of penalties called is only loosely related to the number of penalties/dirty play actually committed. The Steelers are one of the NFL's golden teams that almost always gets the benefit of the doubt for officiating, which suggests that if they do actually lead in those sorts of penalties they probably lead by a larger margin in actual dirty play.
  #128  
Old 10-22-2018, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Clawdio View Post
Its only 3 years if you count that they have the most this year through 6 games. We'll see if it evens out in 2018. In 2015 Baltimore led the league, and the Steelers 7th most in the league
In 2015, the Steelers had 11 Unnecessary Roughness penalty, tying them with Seattle for 4th in the league.

When you lead the league 2.5 years running and you've haven't been outside the top half in over 5 years, that's enough consistency to draw a pretty valid conclusion. YMMV.
  #129  
Old 10-22-2018, 04:48 PM
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Oh right. The NFL Deep State angle. I guess I can't argue that one.

I'm hoping the officiating illuminati has passed down the word to this weekend's crew so the Steelers can beat the Browns. I'm sure they weren't happy with the 10 penalties called (9 accepted) against the Steelers in the 2nd half & OT in the week one tie.
  #130  
Old 10-22-2018, 04:55 PM
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The idea that the NFL has meetings and decides who is going to win games ahead of time and therefore skews the officiating in that direction is one extreme end of it.

But on the opposite end, the idea that the NFL fairly officiates everyone and doesn't allow some sort of unconscious bias to influence them is the other extreme.

I think there's a bias towards treading lightly when officiating good teams, and one against chronically bad teams. After all, the good teams just do things right, and the bad teams don't, and it makes sense to be harder on the bad teams - on some unconscious level. So teams that are chronically good tend to receive light handed officiating and teams that tend to be chronically bad get screwed.

There are other factors, I'm sure. You probably get a lot more criticism when you make a bad call that makes the Patriots lose and everyone is outraged, but if you make a bad call that makes the Browns lose, who gives a shit. Edit: As a concrete example, remember when they New Refs fucked the packers a few years back with the end zone catch thing? More egregious shit has happened to the Browns this season a few times in game winning/losing situations without nearly the backlash.

I think there are a lot of subtle factors at work, but I do think teams like the Steelers and Patriots receive light officiating and teams like the Browns or Lions receive heavy handed officiating, without necessarily anyone having gone to a meeting and declared that to be policy.

Although I do think it's possible the NFL has a grudge over what Cleveland did to get a new team and retain their records, and also things like Bottlegate, and may specifically target them for fucking over. They certainly did during the process of creating the expansion Browns that set them down the path of being dysfunctional for at least the first few years.

Edit: Or think of this way - star players tend to get officiated much more lightly than run of the mill players no one knows. Does that mean the NFL sat down one day and said "okay, we're not going to call much OPI against Antonio Brown"? No, probably not. But through a series of unconscious biases I think most people would agree that star players get treated differently. No one would be allowed to touch Tom Brady in the way that Baker Mayfield gets hit sometimes. So if we can agree that there are reasons that star players get a different officiating treatment, is it so hard to believe that "star" teams do too?

Last edited by SenorBeef; 10-22-2018 at 05:00 PM.
  #131  
Old 10-22-2018, 05:06 PM
Clawdio Clawdio is offline
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In 2015, the Steelers had 11 Unnecessary Roughness penalty, tying them with Seattle for 4th in the league.
Ahh, I think you're including offsetting penalties, which my numbers excluded.

My numbers showed that in 2015 they had 10 (accepted, not offsetting) good for 7th place (and btw 19 teams had at least 7).

Last edited by Clawdio; 10-22-2018 at 05:06 PM.
  #132  
Old 10-22-2018, 05:19 PM
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I think there's a bias towards treading lightly when officiating good teams, and one against chronically bad teams.
And yet in 2018 the least penalized team is the 1-5 NY Giants. And the 10 least penalized teams also includes:

5-2 New England
3-3 Chicago
3-4 Tennesee
4-2 Carolina
4-2 Washington
5-1 New Orleans
7-0 LA
1-5 Oakland
3-3 Detroit

So despite what you "think", that's 5 teams with winning records, and 5 teams at .500 or below.

Also, it's weird that you mention Antonio Brown in a post about star players getting preferential treatment when there was no penalty called last week when Burfict tried to break his neck.
  #133  
Old 10-22-2018, 06:38 PM
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I remember when they were champions the Seahawks got a lot of penalties. And they were earned; the pass rushers for example got called offsides frequently because they really tried to get the jump and time snap counts to get pressure on the QB and that aggressiveness backfired often. Pete Carroll (head coach) publicly said he didn’t mind getting so many penalties because to him it was a consequence of that aggressiveness they strived for. And it’s not like these were personal fouls and such, they were usually technical calls. Actually the Seahawks stress tackling safety and even put out safety videos to teach other teams proper tackling.

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2017/5/20...y-football-nfl

My point is though that sometimes you can be heavily penalized as a winning team because the style of play you have leads to getting lots of penalties. It’s not always the case that “good” teams get penalized less.
  #134  
Old 10-22-2018, 07:16 PM
Airman Doors, USAF Airman Doors, USAF is offline
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So, after the bye week, requiring no effort whatsoever from the Steelers, they currently sit atop the AFC North. I’d like to thank the other three teams in the division for laying some serious eggs this weekend and invite them to continue doing so from now on.
  #135  
Old 10-22-2018, 07:19 PM
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Or, if you get called on a lot of penalties for the same things over and over, chances are you're committing those same offenses far more often and just getting away with it.

Last edited by FoieGrasIsEvil; 10-22-2018 at 07:19 PM.
  #136  
Old 10-22-2018, 07:28 PM
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Or, if you get called on a lot of penalties for the same things over and over, chances are you're committing those same offenses far more often and just getting away with it.
I think thatís the case for every team. I expect everyone gets called for a fraction of the penalties they actually commit. The refs canít see everything. And clever players know how to get away with stuff.
  #137  
Old 10-22-2018, 07:28 PM
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The Steelers are one of the NFL's golden teams that almost always gets the benefit of the doubt for officiating, which suggests that if they do actually lead in those sorts of penalties they probably lead by a larger margin in actual dirty play.
Yes - the Steelers and Packers are the NFL's equivalent of the 2000-2002 Lakers.


Trailing shortly behind them are the Patriots and Cowboys.
  #138  
Old 10-22-2018, 08:13 PM
Airman Doors, USAF Airman Doors, USAF is offline
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Starting from a false premise and using that to build upon doesnít make it any less false. God knows Iíd love it if they got all the calls. Alas, itís simply not true. Jesse James and every Steelers fan in the world can attest to that.

Oh, right, they didnít get that call because the Patriots get all the calls. I forgot how this argument goes for a second. Please forgive me, I wonít let it happen again.
  #139  
Old 10-22-2018, 09:27 PM
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I would say that the Patriots are the recipient of the most referee favoritism, yes.
  #140  
Old 10-22-2018, 09:50 PM
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Or, perhaps, the reason that bad teams get flagged so often is because they’re bad. If the players were good they wouldn’t have to commit so many penalties and their abilities would be reflected in the standings with wins.

Think about that for a while and get back to me when it sinks in.
  #141  
Old 10-22-2018, 10:59 PM
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Atamasama Atamasama is online now
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Originally Posted by Airman Doors, USAF View Post
Or, perhaps, the reason that bad teams get flagged so often is because theyíre bad. If the players were good they wouldnít have to commit so many penalties and their abilities would be reflected in the standings with wins.

Think about that for a while and get back to me when it sinks in.
Thereís definitely some truth to that. Bad teams get frustrated, are undisciplined, and give up yards after they make unnecessary late hits or taunt or whatever to vent their frustration. Or, more simply, they just make mistakes that lead to penalties, because bad teams have bad players.

Of course, sometimes good teams and good players get lots of penalties too. Some people push the envelope and it can lead to great plays but if done wrong or pushed too far break the rules.

I donít think itís indicative of any kind of bias though. I believe thatís what youíre insisting and I agree with you.
  #142  
Old 10-23-2018, 09:02 AM
Clawdio Clawdio is offline
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Ten most penalized teams in 2017:

9-7 Seattle
6-10 Miami
13-3 Philly
10-6 Kansas City
10-6 Jacksonville
4-12 Houston
6-10 San Francisco
11-5 New Orleans
5-11 Jets
5-11 Chicago

5 Winning Teams (including 4 division winners), 5 losing teams

Ten least penalized teams in 2017:
11-5 Carolina
9-7 Baltimore
3-13 NY Giants
7-9 Washington
4-12 Indianapolis
7-9 Green Bay
9-7 Dallas
13-3 New England
9-7 Tennesse
9-7 Buffalo

6 winning teams (1 division winner, 3 wildcards), 4 losing teams.

Its like the only bias, is that of the people claiming that there is a bias. (with the obvious exception that pass interference must be called on every Aaron Rodgers incompletion )

Last edited by Clawdio; 10-23-2018 at 09:02 AM.
  #143  
Old 10-23-2018, 10:47 AM
DSYoungEsq DSYoungEsq is offline
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When your team is performing sub-par, it's very tempting to view everything through the lens of explaining away bad results. This means that, if you have a lot of penalties, that's not your team's fault, but the fault of referees. If you have a seeming lot of non-calls that go against you, that's not because they really weren't penalties, but evidence of bias on the part of referees. If your quarterback gets sacked a lot, that's not a bad offensive line, but rather the failure of referees to have called things correctly, hindering your O-line players and helping the opponents. Etc.

Anytime you start acting like it's all a result of bias on the part of referees, you probably should simply step back and ask someone neutral to critique your viewpoint.
  #144  
Old 10-23-2018, 02:34 PM
SenorBeef SenorBeef is offline
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Here's the problem with counting the number of penalties to analyze the bias of the refs: you're missing the critical half of the data. The data you need is how many penalties were actually committed versus how many called.

As an example, two teams play. Each has 10 penalties called against them for a similar amount of yards. The refs must be unbiased and got one right, eh? They've called each side equally.

Except what if one team actually committed 2 penalties and the other one committed 20? Now suddenly the "balanced" 10 penalties on each side is not even remotely fair - one team was extremely favored by the refs (only being called for half their committed penalties) and the other team was screwed by the refs (by counting mostly phantom penalties against them)

So what you would need to determine bias is a data set that we don't have - we'd need to know what perfect refs would've called versus what our fallible refs actually did call.

In order to objectively gather that data, you'd have to get someone knowledgeable in the rules to go back and view every game, coming up with an objective-as-possible penalty list vs the actual penalties called. And obviously we don't have that.

But, to a very flawed extent, that's what you can do on your own when you watch a lot of games closely. You're building your own mental count of what you see vs what actually gets called, and seeing what patterns emerge.

This is fraught with biases of its own - you'll be partisan about your own team and against teams you dislike - so it's certainly a flawed method of analysis. But having flaws in the process does not mean that it's without merit and could not have merit. If there actually were an imbalance in officiating, people would notice it in this way, and likely be called partisan and dismissed even if it were a real effect.

But let's take two example teams that I have no particular bias towards or against. In my estimation, based on having watched dozens of games, the Patriots get more of their fair share of favorable officiating, and the Lions tend to receive unfavorable officiating. Do I have the hard data to back me up? No, there's no PFF-like ref evaluation service publically available. It's just something learned from observation over time, and given that I don't care if either team wins or lose, I have no particular reason to skew those observations. Having me unable to prove this point is not the same as saying it's not real - because the default assumption otherwise is that the refs operate perfectly without any real biases of any sort, which is itself a pretty unlikely thing.

Last edited by SenorBeef; 10-23-2018 at 02:35 PM.
  #145  
Old 10-23-2018, 04:31 PM
DSYoungEsq DSYoungEsq is offline
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Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
because the default assumption otherwise is that the refs operate perfectly without any real biases of any sort, which is itself a pretty unlikely thing.
Why do you assume that referees have biases against or for teams? As a person who has refereed (soccer, not football, but at high levels), I can assure you I did not ever have a conscious bias for or against a team when it came time to referee the game. I suspect that any perceived bias is simply confirmation of some concept that you have as an individual bought into, and that doesn't have to be based upon your own personal team preferences.
  #146  
Old 10-23-2018, 05:27 PM
Clawdio Clawdio is offline
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"Objective" is the key word in your post SenorBeef. Believe me, I've lived in Minnesota for over 10 years, so while I'm still a Steelers fan because that's where I lived for the first 27 years of my life, I casually follow the Vikings with no real emotional attachment. The bias in every discussion on Vikings local talk radio and by fans is so clearly over the top, and here's the thing... it seems they actually think they're being objective. But to the outside eye, its pretty clear and amusing.

But here's where we differ. I don't think there's really any significant bias in refereeing. Look at LeBron, he might get a few extra calls here and there, but they're totally offset by all the calls he doesn't get because he's a monster of a man. Same went for Shaq. I hate the Patriots, but I don't think they get any more favorable calls/no-calls their way than any other team, and to think otherwise is just sour grapes. I think the exception to this rule is the veteran pitching ace in baseball, who will get those borderline strike calls a lot more than the rookie pitcher.
  #147  
Old 10-26-2018, 11:09 AM
Clawdio Clawdio is offline
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Does anyone here know (or have a good link) if the Steelers get salary cap relief in 2019 for Bell's forfeited salary? or is that cap space only freed up in 2018?

Just looking for a silver lining to the whole thing. Since he's forfeited $6.8M, seems like the Steelers could restructure some folks to achieve a more friendly cap number going forward, or maybe sign a big free agent next year.
  #148  
Old 10-28-2018, 01:02 PM
Airman Doors, USAF Airman Doors, USAF is offline
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Given the events yesterday, does it really matter who wins?

Yes, it does.

Pittsburgh 28, Cleveland 10. No 6 turnovers or ties today, Browns fans.

And no, it really doesnít matter. I was joking. Still, Here We Go!
  #149  
Old 10-28-2018, 02:32 PM
Chisquirrel Chisquirrel is offline
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Originally Posted by Clawdio View Post
Does anyone here know (or have a good link) if the Steelers get salary cap relief in 2019 for Bell's forfeited salary? or is that cap space only freed up in 2018?

Just looking for a silver lining to the whole thing. Since he's forfeited $6.8M, seems like the Steelers could restructure some folks to achieve a more friendly cap number going forward, or maybe sign a big free agent next year.
I dunno about the former, but any extra cap space a team ends the year with is rolled over to the next, which is why every team has a slightly different cap.
  #150  
Old 10-28-2018, 03:18 PM
UltraVires UltraVires is online now
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Terrible execution on the free kick. What is the league minimum salary? If I am paying a guy six figures to play a kid's game, he better know the rulebook inside and out. Not a single Steeler was aware of the rule. That's on Tomlin. I've had it with his lax and shitty discipline.
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