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  #551  
Old 05-15-2019, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
I don't think the person who just took your unborn child as an act of vengeance, and who possibly put your husband into a coma, qualifies as an "innocent."

I don't remember the specifics of the Meereen examples you quote, so I'll need to revisit those to check.
If you rape and murder an entire village, I don't think you get to wash your hands of burning an unarmed captive to death just because they resisted your barbarism.
  #552  
Old 05-15-2019, 02:46 PM
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If you rape and murder an entire village, I don't think you get to wash your hands of burning an unarmed captive to death just because they resisted your barbarism.
I think you're confusing the actions of the Dothraki horde with those of Dany, who specifically requested the women who were captured -- including Mirri Maz Duur -- be placed under her authority to PREVENT them from being raped and murdered.
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  #553  
Old 05-15-2019, 02:49 PM
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I think you're confusing the actions of the Dothraki horde with those of Dany, who specifically requested the women who were captured -- including Mirri Maz Duur -- be placed under her authority to PREVENT them from being raped and murdered.
Oh please dear husband, murder your way onto the throne. Oh dear me, was there some collateral damage? Who could have foreseen that?

Drogo specifically says he will rape women and enslave children and Dany assents, btw. Maybe she got cold feet after. I'm sure the dead feel better about that.

She's morally culpable.

Last edited by Snarky_Kong; 05-15-2019 at 02:52 PM.
  #554  
Old 05-15-2019, 02:52 PM
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Second, as for not caring about her army, she DID send her cavalry charging through the darkness at an undead army, and then she put her infantry standing between said army and the static defenses.
Yes, and that's another example of a miscalculation by the writers. I'm not sure that makes the point you want to make.

We're quibbling over semantics here. I disagree that Dany has been shown previously as the type of person who would indiscriminately execute someone who hasn't hurt her -- particularly not children, nor her own fighting forces. The fact that you and others are touting examples of her executing (or allowing to die) those who opposed her don't hold weight with me.

I agree this was to be Dany's arc the entire time. I just think the writers and showrunners did a terrible job getting us here.
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  #555  
Old 05-15-2019, 02:53 PM
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I don't think the person who just took your unborn child as an act of vengeance, and who possibly put your husband into a coma, qualifies as an "innocent."
Well she was the complete opposite of innocent from Dany's perspective, for sure, since she essentially murdered Dany's husband and unborn child.

But objectively she was an innocent who essentially went back in time to kill baby Hitler. Think of it from the witch's perspective: The horde butchered her family and everyone she knows, raped her four times (I think that's what she said) and then Dany enslaved her. This same horde was anticipating the birth of future Hitler. The witch then found herself with an opportunity to take out both the leader of the horde and future Hitler, and she took it.

Is the witch the bad guy because of that? I'd say no, she was an innocent who did the right thing knowing it would cost her her life.

Similarly, the people of KL were objectively innocents, but from Dany's perspective they were anything but. If she doesn't consider them innocents (which she explicitly said she does not and even explained why) then you can't say she was massacring innocents.

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I disagree that Dany has been shown previously as the type of person who would indiscriminately execute someone who hasn't hurt her
That is EXACTLY what she did in Mereen.

Those mask-wearing fanatics were harshing her mellow, so she rounded up some random high ranking officials with zero evidence or even suspicion that they were involved in any way, fed one to her dragons and then threatened to feed more if they didn't go discover who was behind the Harpies.

Last edited by Ellis Dee; 05-15-2019 at 02:57 PM.
  #556  
Old 05-15-2019, 02:58 PM
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So here's the other reason why viewers might be reacting like this: They have been taught very little history of war and conflict. They don't know that this pattern echoes through history - rulers who think they are the ones who will fix all the problems if only they have ultimate power, only to have that power or the messy realities of life interfere with their idealistic plans and they become more and more compromised until it becomes easy to do horrific things.
In the post-WWII Western world, there is an impression of the military as noble and wonderful, thank-you-for-your-service, that really was not typical before then. Of course that is in part because World War II was a very oddly justifiable war - one of the very few such wars ever. That combined with the modern attitude towards the principles of the Geneva Conventions, which we don't uphold and much as we like to think we do but we try, gives people here and now a rather historically unusual opinion of militaries, and what sort of behaviour is typical of them.

In fact, for most of history, armies have been little more than giant swarms of locusts, except locusts that will kill you, not just eat all your food (but soldiers would eat all your food, too.) The sacking and pillaging of cities was just how it was. For much of human history war has been seen as an exercise in robbing people.

The armies of GOT are much more like most of the real armies in human history than people's impressions of the armies Grandpa fought in back in the 40s, but we apply modern sensibilities to them. Furthermore, the makes of GOT manipulate your perspective - quite intentionally, to keep screwing up your expectations. The fact people think of Mirri Maz Durr was a villain says it all, really - the only reason anyone thinks that is because Daenerys loved Khal Drogo. If you back up, though, and look at the facts objectively, Khal Drogo was a dreadful villain, and a war criminal, and deserved all that and much worse. He preyed on Mirri Maz Durr's people. If the show had been shot from a different perspective, from that of HER people, Khal Drogo would literally be one of the most hated villains in the history of television. And Daenerys Targaryen was by that point his happy accomplice. Burning Mirri Maz Durr to death was exactly as justified as the Emperor trying to kill Luke Skywalker.
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Last edited by RickJay; 05-15-2019 at 03:03 PM.
  #557  
Old 05-15-2019, 03:02 PM
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So much so that it's the third amendment of the United States Constitution:
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
That would be an odd amendment to have if the history RickJay describes wasn't a thing.

Last edited by Ellis Dee; 05-15-2019 at 03:03 PM.
  #558  
Old 05-15-2019, 03:07 PM
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Those mask-wearing fanatics were harshing her mellow, so she rounded up some random high ranking officials with zero evidence or even suspicion that they were involved in any way, fed one to her dragons and then threatened to feed more if they didn't go discover who was behind the Harpies.
First, those mask-wearing fanatics were inciting insurrection and a possible civil war. They had just killed her personal protector, Barristan Selmy, and wounded Grey Worm in a sneak attack in an alley.

Secondly, she didn't round up "some random high-ranking officials." She rounded up the heads of the leading families in Meereen. Granted, she had no hard proof that they were involved with the Harpies; but since they were the ones who had lost the most by her new rules, and since the Harpies seemed very well-organized, well-informed, and well-financed, she felt justified in the conclusion they were the driving force behind the Harpies.
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  #559  
Old 05-15-2019, 03:11 PM
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Secondly, she didn't round up "some random high-ranking officials." She rounded up the heads of the leading families in Meereen. Granted, she had no hard proof that they were involved with the Harpies; but since they were the ones who had lost the most by her new rules, and since the Harpies seemed very well-organized, well-informed, and well-financed, she felt justified in the conclusion they were the driving force behind the Harpies.
But they weren't. It's only from Dany's perspective that she was justified, same with the witch, and you seem to be arguing that as the case but then refuse to accept that same logic in the sack of KL despite Dany explicitly saying that the commoners of KL are not innocent bystanders.
  #560  
Old 05-15-2019, 03:15 PM
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In the post-WWII Western world, there is an impression of the military as noble and wonderful, thank-you-for-your-service, that really was not typical before then. Of course that is in part because World War II was a very oddly justifiable war - one of the very few such wars ever. That combined with the modern attitude towards the principles of the Geneva Conventions, which we don't uphold and much as we like to think we do but we try, gives people here and now a rather historically unusual opinion of militaries, and what sort of behaviour is typical of them.

In fact, for most of history, armies have been little more than giant swarms of locusts, except locusts that will kill you, not just eat all your food (but soldiers would eat all your food, too.) The sacking and pillaging of cities was just how it was. For much of human history war has been seen as an exercise in robbing people.

The armies of GOT are much more like most of the real armies in human history than people's impressions of the armies Grandpa fought in back in the 40s, but we apply modern sensibilities to them. Furthermore, the makes of GOT manipulate your perspective - quite intentionally, to keep screwing up your expectations. The fact people think of Mirri Maz Durr was a villain says it all, really - the only reason anyone thinks that is because Daenerys loved Khal Drogo. If you back up, though, and look at the facts objectively, Khal Drogo was a dreadful villain, and a war criminal, and deserved all that and much worse. He preyed on Mirri Maz Durr's people. If the show had been shot from a different perspective, from that of HER people, Khal Drogo would literally be one of the most hated villains in the history of television. And Daenerys Targaryen was by that point his happy accomplice. Burning Mirri Maz Durr to death was exactly as justified as the Emperor trying to kill Luke Skywalker.
Well, the Western Allies did rape and steal quite a bit. It was an issue during both the Normandy and Northern France campaigns, Life Magazine, even wrote about it at the time.

Jon's ultimately doomed attempts to stop it is fairly accurate for the sentimemts of most commanders during history. They try and stop it, but fail.
  #561  
Old 05-15-2019, 03:15 PM
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It seems to me that some people were just too invested in the whole Khaleesi/Savior thing, and they just can't let that go, even though this trajectory has been hinted at the whole time.

I really don't understand the argument that it would be better had they shown her being evil by murdering innocents and not caring previously. The argument seems to be that they'd be more willing to accept the turn if the turn happened already, but wouldn't that spoil the turn?
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  #562  
Old 05-15-2019, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
Secondly, she didn't round up "some random high-ranking officials." She rounded up the heads of the leading families in Meereen. Granted, she had no hard proof that they were involved with the Harpies; but since they were the ones who had lost the most by her new rules, and since the Harpies seemed very well-organized, well-informed, and well-financed, she felt justified in the conclusion they were the driving force behind the Harpies.
Dany is justified in the extrajudicial murder of people she is annoyed with because, well, don't they seem like the kind of people that deserve to be murdered without proof of any wrongdoing?

I see.
  #563  
Old 05-15-2019, 03:21 PM
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… you seem to be arguing that as the case but then refuse to accept that same logic in the sack of KL despite Dany explicitly saying that the commoners of KL are not innocent bystanders.
I know Dany said they weren't innocent bystanders. My point is, she made that pronouncement roughly 24 hours (in show time) before she incinerated most of the men, women and children of King's Landing. You and others are arguing we've seen multiple examples of this descent into madness on her part. I (and others) are saying we haven't, not on this scale, and not to this degree.

And just having her say something like that right before she does it is a poor attempt at justification for her actions on the part of the writers and showrunners. As someone else said upthread, it would have made much more sense if we'd seen her being blasé about her ability to use the dragons -- or her own power -- to kill indiscriminately.
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  #564  
Old 05-15-2019, 03:26 PM
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It's not a plot twist if the twist already happened.
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  #565  
Old 05-15-2019, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Snarky_Kong View Post
Mirri Maz Durr
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Originally Posted by Ellis Dee View Post
It's only from Dany's perspective that she was justified, same with the witch
Mirri Maz Duur calmly admitted to murder.

I know Season 1 was a long time ago, but this has already been pointed out repeatedly in this thread. Her ritual also destroyed Dany's ability to have any future children, which she, again, outright and calmly admitted.

You don't get to stab a mother in the stomach, not magically or otherwise, just because the father is a mass-murdering dick. These were appallingly brutal crimes against Dany, and against the child. Duur was guilty as sin. Her crimes might have been justified, and in her place, I might've done the same thing. But I can say the same thing about Dany's position. If someone killed my kid, you'd better believe I would light their ass up given the lack of any other functional justice system. Especially if I knew I'd get three dragons out of the execution of a child murderer.

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some of the Master of Mereen (Hizdahr zo Loraq's father and the one she fed to her dragons for specific examples).
The masters of Meereen were slavers, including Hizdahr's father.

He was "innocent" of having advocated the crucifixion of the slaves, at least according to his son. He was still guilty of slavery, and of participating in the resistance to the emancipation of those slaves. The North would've been justified in hanging quite a lot of Confederate leaders. Maybe it would have been bad policy, but it was a sentence more than commensurate with the crime. Dany was justified in executing the Grand Masters when she took the city. In her case, it might've even been good policy, given what the bastards cooked up later.

But after the pardons went out...

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and the one she fed to her dragons for specific examples
This actually seems to be a genuine example.

I will think about this one.
  #566  
Old 05-15-2019, 03:45 PM
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Dany is justified in the extrajudicial murder of people she is annoyed with because, well, don't they seem like the kind of people that deserve to be murdered without proof of any wrongdoing?

I see.
"Extrajudicial"? Bloody hell. She's the queen. She IS the judicial system.

For the umpteenth time -- I have no issue with Dany going full-blown mad like this. I'm sure that was GRRM's intent and plan all along. I'm not some disappointed Dany fan-boy. I don't have a "Dany for President!" tattoo.

My issue is with the problems within the show itself, and this is an excellent example. If you're going to tell (or show) a story and make it believable, you have to be consistent with the framework you've created. You can have (or ignore) all sorts of rules about the world, but once you've established how things work, you can't then just trample all over those rules. For example:

- Entire armies can't traverse a huge continent twice and fight major battles before a woman who was pregnant begins to show (Cersei)
- Dragon breath should either melt stone (Harrenhal) or cause it to explode (King's Landing), but it shouldn't do both
- Characters who have been shown to be excellent schemers, planners and manipulators (Tyrion, Varys) shouldn't suddenly and inexplicably be outwitted time and again by those less intelligent than them
- A leader who has lost one of her most valuable assets to a long-range spear shot, and who has had her fleet destroyed by another fleet via a sneak attack, shouldn't suddenly lose ANOTHER valuable asset to a long-range spear shot via a sneak attack by a fleet
- People who have waged war in a certain way for centuries shouldn't suddenly forget the tactics used during that entire time (Battle of Winterfell)

And for those who are claiming it's a "plot twist": There are ways to handle a plot twist without wrecking the underpinnings of your story. I thought the twist in The Sixth Sense was fantastic, and I re-watched the movie as soon as I could to appreciate the nuances that led up to it. That type of subtlety and foreshadowing seems beyond the reach of the Game of Thrones writers and showrunners.
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Last edited by Sauron; 05-15-2019 at 03:47 PM.
  #567  
Old 05-15-2019, 03:49 PM
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It was symbolism! She was mad!
  #568  
Old 05-15-2019, 03:51 PM
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I know Dany said they weren't innocent bystanders. My point is, she made that pronouncement roughly 24 hours (in show time) before she incinerated most of the men, women and children of King's Landing. You and others are arguing we've seen multiple examples of this descent into madness on her part. I (and others) are saying we haven't, not on this scale, and not to this degree.
No, I have never said anything about madness in this entire thread.

I'm objecting to you saying there has been no previous examples of her killing innocents without concern when that's clearly wrong. Yes she has. We have cited them for you.

Quote:
And just having her say something like that right before she does it is a poor attempt at justification for her actions on the part of the writers and showrunners.
Say something like what? That the commoners could overthrow Cersei if they wanted to? It's true, they could. Hell, they practically did it once before with the Faith Militant. The fact that they don't is at least equal justification to consider them enemy combatants as the beaurocrats in Mereen from Dany's perspective.

You seem to be picking and choosing when to judge Dany from her perspective (previous examples she didn't consider them innocent so she wasn't killing innocents) vs judging her objectively (she didn't consider them innocents but WE do so she was killing innocents). That's not really a good faith debate.

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As someone else said upthread, it would have made much more sense if we'd seen her being blasé about her ability to use the dragons -- or her own power -- to kill indiscriminately.
We did, last episode.

If they had shown it earlier, I expect you would have been in that episode thread spamming this same argument.
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Old 05-15-2019, 03:54 PM
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- Dragon breath should either melt stone (Harrenhal) or cause it to explode (King's Landing), but it shouldn't do both.
I don't understand the problem here. Different kinds of stone react differently to dragon fire. Harrenhal stone melts, Kings Landing stone explodes. They don't look the same, why would they react the same?
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Old 05-15-2019, 03:55 PM
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If they had shown it earlier, I expect you would have been in that episode thread spamming this same argument.
I'm "spamming an argument"? Nice.

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I'm objecting to you saying there has been no previous examples of her killing innocents without concern when that's clearly wrong. Yes she has. We have cited them for you.
Really? Where?

You obviously have no issues with the show and how it's being handled. On the other hand, I've enjoyed this show for years, and am sad to see something that could have been so good fall so short of the mark.
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Old 05-15-2019, 03:56 PM
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"Extrajudicial"? Bloody hell. She's the queen. She IS the judicial system.
..
- Dragon breath should either melt stone (Harrenhal) or cause it to explode (King's Landing), but it shouldn't do both
....
It might be more a quality of the type(s) of stone involved--Harrenhall could have been more metallic or crystalline perhaps, King's Landing more porous, allowing rapid vaporization of water with explosive effect. For that matter, they were different dragons, too.
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Old 05-15-2019, 03:57 PM
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Mirri Maz Durr and some of the Master of Mereen (Hizdahr zo Loraq's father and the one she fed to her dragons for specific examples).
Ok, let’s go through all the alleged atrocities that Daenerys committed and see if, together, they fit the profile of someone who would burn tens of thousands of innocent children alive for absolutely no reason at all

Actually, scratch that. Let’s look at this idea that she had to burn tens of thousands of innocent children alive to shore up her position and prevent Jon Snow from taking her place. It’s ridiculous. Yes, Jon is the rightful heir, but he doesn’t want the throne. Like, not at all. Heir or not, nobody has the power to just force him to be king. It’s not like the Night’s Watch where he was fairly elected by his sworn brothers. He has no affinity for the South, no ties to anyone outside of Winterfell, and, oh yeah, he supports Daenerys unconditionally.

He’s not like Stannis either. Stannis didn’t particularly want to be King, but he knew it was his duty and, for Stannis, duty always came first, no exceptions. Jon has made tons of exceptions. He had a duty to keep his vows, yet he broke them with Ygritte. He had a duty to obey Stannis, yet he mercy-killed Mance Rayder. One could argue he had a duty to rebuke Stannis and deny him the use of Castle Black, even after Stannis saved him from the Wildlings because “The Night’s Watch takes no part in the troubles of the realm”, but he forsook that one too. And isn’t it weird that he executed Alliser Thorne, Bowen Marsh, and Olly and then immediately quit as soon as they were dead because “His watch has ended”? Which is it, Jon? Either you’re the Lord Commander or you’re not. If you are, great. Hang away, but you have a duty to stick around and stay Lord Commander, not sneak out through a loophole as soon as you’ve got your vengeance. If you’re not, great. Then you have a duty to let your successor do the hanging. However you slice it, Jon is no slave to duty. He wouldn’t take the mantle of King just because it was his birthright if he didn’t want to or if there was someone else better available. And he didn’t want to, and there was someone better available. At least, there was until she burned tens of thousands of innocent children alive

So no. I don't for a moment believe that Jon was in any way a serious contender for the throne. Therefore, there was no reason for Daenerys to think she had to barbecue King’s Landing in order to terrify those who might support Jon over her. Especially since Jon yet again swore fealty to her literally the night before the battle.

So that leaves one other explanation: That she was a sociopath all along, but we just didn’t notice it because all the people she hurt before were bad too. For the sake of balance, let’s have a look at some of the good things she did first.

1) She took in the Lhazarene women to keep them from being raped by Khal Drogo’s men.
2). She freed the slaves at Astapor and Meereen.
3). She closed the Mereenese fighting pits and only re-opened them in a desperate bid to keep the peace.
4). She married Hizhdar Zo Loraq to help keep the peace, even though she despised him and was in love with Dario.
5). She chained up her dragons...to keep them from attacking children!
6). She forgave Jorah Mormont after he betrayed her.
7) She chose not to hire sell swords, even after the Wise Masters of Meereen gave her enough gold to buy, like, all of them, preferring to rely on her Unsullied, at least in part because the Unsullied could be trusted not to kill innocent people. Indeed, when she liberated them from Astapor she expressly told them not to kill innocents or anyone who surrendered.

That’s just the stuff I can recall off the top of my head. And that’s not even touching all the times she was visibly upset at the death of innocents.

I say all this, by the way, as someone who’s emphatically not a Dany fan. I’ve always thought she was a boring character. I just don’t think the writers did anything to earn our credulity when she decided to set King’s Landing on fire even after the battle was won.

But maybe I’m taking too rosy a view. Let’s look at some of the bad stuff she did and see if it in any way foreshadows her decision to burn tens of thousands of innocent children alive

1). Killed Mirri Maz Duur - Mirri Maz Duur promised to bring Khal Drogo back from the dead. Instead, she brought him back as a vegetable and sacrificed Daenerys’s unborn child to do it, knowing it would leave her barren. All this after Daenerys has done her best to protect her. Don’t tell me that bitch didn’t have it coming.

2). She wasn’t visibly upset when Drogo killed Viserys - Well, given that Viserys had sexually and emotionally abused her since childhood and forced her to marry Khal Drogo, saying ”I’d let his whole tribe fuck you, all forty thousand men and their horses too if that what it takes”, I don’t think I’m being overly charitable if I forgive her for not crying salty tears into her wine cup when Drogo got rid of him, especially since he’d threatened to cut her baby out of her literally two minutes earlier.

3). She burned the Warlocks in the House of the Undying - Well, they had stolen her dragons and were actively trying to kill her.

4). She shut Xaro Xoan Daxos and Doreah in the vault and left them to die - They’d murdered Irri and Jhiqui and stolen her dragons. Again, they got theirs.

5). She burned the slavers at Astapor - Big deal. They were slavers who made their soldiers kill babies as part of their “training”.

6). She crucified the Wise Masters of Meereen - Again. Big deal. They’d crucified like a hundred and fifty innocent children just to try and scare her off. And yeah, not all of them “voted for it”, but who gives a shit? Even the best of them were still slavers.

7). She burned Vaes Dothrak - The Khals were planning to keep her locked up in Vaes Dothrak for the rest of her life just because she used to be married to Khal Drogo. Was she supposed to just sit there and take it. I imagine if Jon Snow was being held captive somewhere and could only escape by killing a few people he’d probably do that too. Besides, they’re Dothraki. They only respect strength. The children of King’s Landing? Not so much.

8). She burned the ships in Slaver’s Bay - Yeah, the ships which were throwing fire balls Meereen at the time.

9). She burned tens of thousands of innocent children alive. Even after the battle was won. Even though she had absolutely nothing to gain by doing so. And let’s not forget that this wasn’t just one errant attack on one group of civilians. No. She went all over the city, burning street after street after crowded street for a good half an hour!

One of these things is not like the others.

For me to believe that this massacre was within the scope of Daenerys’ character, I would’ve needed to see evidence of real cruelty beforehand. None of her past actions remotely qualify. They were all either responses to cruelty or they were directed solely at people who seriously deserved it, or both. Yeah, she talked a lot of shit about burning cities, but she was also pretty easily talked out of it as well, which suggested to me as a viewer that it was just that; talk.

I’m genuinely pissed off at the writers for handling her “Mad Queen” turn so sloppily. It’s like if Walter White had gone straight from killing Tuco to arranging the prison massacre with nothing in between. If Daenerys was always destined to ‘Break Bad’ they should’ve been a lot more nuanced with her character work before having her go apeshit with one week to go.

  #573  
Old 05-15-2019, 04:01 PM
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You obviously have no issues with the show
I have quite a few issues with this season and last season, and have even detailed some of them in this very thread. (Though much moreso in previous threads.) Dany's turn is not one of those issues. It's one of the few things they've done mostly right.

Some minor tweaks would have made the sack of King's Landing better, I'll happily concede that. But it wasn't the monumental fuckup it's being painted as in this thread.

Last edited by Ellis Dee; 05-15-2019 at 04:03 PM.
  #574  
Old 05-15-2019, 04:06 PM
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[QUOTE=Ellis Dee;21644424] … [QUOTE]

Huh. I could've sworn your post included a statement saying the "innocent children of King's Landing" were "innocent to us, maybe, but not to Dany." When I submitted this post, though, that part was gone.

Which is for the best … I mean, if you're going to say Dany ISN'T mad, and that she DIDN'T consider those children innocent because … wait, why, again? Because they didn't rise up in some sort of Children's Crusade and demand Cersei's ouster?

Yeah … THAT would be crazy, right?
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Old 05-15-2019, 04:08 PM
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I didn't say "children." Please don't attribute words to me that I didn't say.

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Old 05-15-2019, 04:12 PM
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I didn't say "children." Please don't attribute words to me that I didn't say.
No; I thought you were responding to Unreconstructed Man's use of the term "innocent children." As I said, I could have sworn that was part of your post.

My apologies. I'm not trying to misquote you, or misattribute. If I've inadvertently broken a board rule, please feel welcome to report this.
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Old 05-15-2019, 04:14 PM
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Nope, all good. Using quotation marks (as opposed to quote boxes) only requires conveying the gist of it, and that was the gist of it. I felt it wasn't the strongest response so I edited it out and changed it to the final sentence that's there now.

Last edited by Ellis Dee; 05-15-2019 at 04:14 PM.
  #578  
Old 05-15-2019, 04:32 PM
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Tell you what: Show me another instance anywhere in the history of the show in which Dany goes out of her way to slaughter innocents or noncombatants and I'll agree with you. Or, for that matter, another instance in which she's shown as not caring at all whether her army lives or dies.
This is something that has been building for eight years. Yes, this is beyond what she has done previously, but the antecedents have been very clearly set out, and all through this season as people have shown everyone and everything that was preventing her from following her worst instincts has systematically been removed. That's what I mean by it not being a "sudden turn." There might have been some doubt if the show would finally go down that road, but all the warning signs were there and have been since the first season.
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Old 05-15-2019, 04:35 PM
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Has anyone heard the idea that Arya is already dead?
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Old 05-15-2019, 04:39 PM
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Has anyone heard the idea that Arya is already dead?
That seems like it would be a pointless reveal. Any surprises need to be in service to the story.
  #581  
Old 05-15-2019, 04:46 PM
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I think you're confusing the actions of the Dothraki horde with those of Dany, who specifically requested the women who were captured -- including Mirri Maz Duur -- be placed under her authority to PREVENT them from being raped and murdered.
And yet, she passed cages filled with child slaves, and did nothing. And she watched peasants being murdered and their belongings taken, and did nothing. She loved the man who caused it all. The women were in the process of being raped, and I suspect that touched too much of a nerve for her. But it doesn't matter - tyrants have always have had the capacity to be merciful and kind when it suited them, and I'm sure they believed it at the time. Caring for people right in front of you is a good way to tell yourself that you are a good person while people you can't see are being slaughtered by your actions.

My son had never seen Game of Thrones, so I'm now watching it with him. It's fun watching again with someone who's never seen the show. Anyway, today's episode was the one where Daeneris is almost poisoned, and Khal Drogo responds by promising her the seven kingdoms. The scene is on Youtube, so you can see Daeneris' face as Khal Drogo says:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khal Drogo
I will take my khalasar west to where the world ends and ride wooden horses across the black salt sea as no khal has done before.

I will kill the men in iron suits and tear down their stone houses.

I will rape their women, take their children as slaves and bring their broken gods back to Vaes Dothrak.
And how does our child-loving Khaleesi respond to Khal Drogo's promise to rape Westerosi women and enslave Westerosi children? Well, it seemed to me that she was looking at him with a combination of pride, love, and lust. She didn't look horrified, she didn't later say, "No, that's not what I want! I want to rule through love." Nope. If Khal Drogo had lived, he would have taken his horde across the sea and raped and murdered until she was on the throne. And she was totally okay with that. And she still loved the guy deeply, knowing that he was one of the biggest monsters on the planet, being the biggest, baddest leader of a culture that exists ONLY to murder men, rape women, and enslave children.

There's no Doubt that Daeneris was capable of compassion. She's not a sociopath. I'm sure it truly hurt her to see the body of the boy her dragon killed. I'm sure her reaction when seeing those women being raped was honest. But tyrants through history have been able to compartmentalize and separate their feelings from 'what must be done'. Hell, they even showed us that King Robert, who used to be just as moral and honorable as Ned, was broken down by the years of compromises and hard decisions to the point where he could easily order the death of a girl he'd never met and who was currently no threat to him and probably never would be. Just in case. But that doesn't mean he couldn't have true feelings for his family, or that he would coldly murder someone in his presence.

In the same way, soldiers have been able to go to war and commit unspeakable acts from a peacetime perspective, including bombing buildings where they know children are, or bombing entire cities full of civilians. Then they can come back to civilian life and risk their life to save a puppy. Humans are capable of compartmentalizing these things - we probably had to learn to do that to stay alive.
  #582  
Old 05-15-2019, 04:50 PM
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Has anyone heard the idea that Arya is already dead?
The only thing that made me go 'hmm' temporarily is that the blood they put on Masie William's face seemed to intentionally evoke the cutline for swapping a face. She had a line of blood across her forehead, which then went down the side of her face and curled under her chin. For a second I thought we were going to see that face come off and someone else be under it. But I think that was either accidental or it was just another thing to throw us off a bit.

Riding away on a pale horse is also an indication of death, if not for her, then for someone else. But yeah, if it turned out that she was dead and they find her body in the rubble, people will look back at that scene and say, "Oh, of course. That horse didn't exist - this was her being taken off to wherever the dead go."

But I think she's still alive.
  #583  
Old 05-15-2019, 05:00 PM
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The only thing that made me go 'hmm' temporarily is that the blood they put on Masie William's face seemed to intentionally evoke the cutline for swapping a face. She had a line of blood across her forehead, which then went down the side of her face and curled under her chin. For a second I thought we were going to see that face come off and someone else be under it. But I think that was either accidental or it was just another thing to throw us off a bit.

Riding away on a pale horse is also an indication of death, if not for her, then for someone else. But yeah, if it turned out that she was dead and they find her body in the rubble, people will look back at that scene and say, "Oh, of course. That horse didn't exist - this was her being taken off to wherever the dead go."
The idea is that she rides off on a pale horse. Some people think that the horse is the one ridden by the leader of the Golden Company (or something like that), and the producers made a point of the horse being killed. The little girl Arya tries to save is carrying a white toy horse. Arya is repeatedly shown being trampled by the stampeding crowd.

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But I think she's still alive.
As TroutMan said, it would be a pointless reveal. I'd be disappointed if she were dead, as I can't see how her death serves a purpose (aside from GRRM being all like, 'Ha-ha! People die for no reason! Too bad, so sad!').
  #584  
Old 05-15-2019, 05:06 PM
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The idea is that she rides off on a pale horse. Some people think that the horse is the one ridden by the leader of the Golden Company (or something like that), and the producers made a point of the horse being killed. The little girl Arya tries to save is carrying a white toy horse. Arya is repeatedly shown being trampled by the stampeding crowd.
I can't think of another case in which this show has done that kind of a fake-out. In fact, I don't think they've shown anyone appearing as a spirit or ghost after death. I don't think they'll start now. I also can't see it serving any kind of plot point now.

Last edited by Colibri; 05-15-2019 at 05:08 PM.
  #585  
Old 05-15-2019, 05:13 PM
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I can't think of another case in which this show has done that kind of a fake-out. In fact, I don't think they've shown anyone appearing as a spirit or ghost after death. I don't think they'll start now. I also can't see it serving any kind of plot point now.
It’d also be a terribly anti-climactic way to kill off arguably the show’s most popular character.
  #586  
Old 05-15-2019, 05:30 PM
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- Dragon breath should either melt stone (Harrenhal) or cause it to explode (King's Landing), but it shouldn't do both
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I don't understand the problem here. Different kinds of stone react differently to dragon fire. Harrenhal stone melts, Kings Landing stone explodes. They don't look the same, why would they react the same?
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It might be more a quality of the type(s) of stone involved--Harrenhall could have been more metallic or crystalline perhaps, King's Landing more porous, allowing rapid vaporization of water with explosive effect. For that matter, they were different dragons, too.
Yeah, I was going to respond "sez who"? Dragons are fantasy creatures. Dragon's breath is a fantasy substance. Who says that if you show dragon's breath doing X at one time then it mustn't be able to do Y at another time. No one in the context of the fiction made such a rule.

We know that at least once dragon's breath melted part of a castle, and that at least once it blew up much of a fortified city. And once the breath of a zombie dragon tore down a magic wall of ice.

That's not enough of a sample to draw any conclusions about the limits of dragon's breath or to label that an inconsistency.
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Old 05-15-2019, 05:35 PM
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Really, the reason Drogon's breath exploded the stone rather than melting it in this case was that this was a lot easier to show with practical effects. Considering the amount of destruction called for, CGI of melting stone would have been cool but prohibitively expensive. This way they could just blow stuff up and film it in the normal way. Sure you can fanwank reasons for differences between the walls of Harrenhal and King's Landing but that's the reason.

Last edited by Colibri; 05-15-2019 at 05:36 PM.
  #588  
Old 05-15-2019, 05:40 PM
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It’d also be a terribly anti-climactic way to kill off arguably the show’s most popular character.
I agree - except for the possible scenario that George R.R. Martin intended for her to die in the rubble, and the showrunners couldn't just accept that and added a hero's mystical death scene as fan service.

I don't think she's dead, but if she is I think you can fanwank that scene as being acceptable because Arya definitely had given herself to the house of black and white and in so doing gained magical powers or the attention of the God of Death, and so she gets a supernatural ending. In a fantasy show, I'm okay with that. The line of blood around her face could even be used to show that now that she was dead, she was about to be faceless or something. Or now that the magic had worn off, the blood line that marks where the faces go has now appeared.

But no, I don't think she's dead. I think she has to show up in this week's episode, even if it's just a failed attempt to get close to Daeneris and she remains in the background. But if someone comes to John and says, "We found Arya's body in the rubble" I wouldn't be terribly surprised.
  #589  
Old 05-15-2019, 06:23 PM
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Nitpick: Daenerys
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  #590  
Old 05-15-2019, 06:43 PM
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Nitpick: Daenerys
A question about that: They pronounce her name 'dan-erris'. Shouldn't it be 'deen-erris', like in Aesop?
  #591  
Old 05-15-2019, 06:48 PM
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Not in High Valyrian!
  #592  
Old 05-15-2019, 06:52 PM
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It’d also be a terribly anti-climactic way to kill off arguably the show’s most popular character.
There's also the possibility that that was Arya's farewell scene and she won't appear in the next episode. Then the audience can draw whatever conclusion they like.

Still kind of lame, but after the Ghost and Sam farewell...
  #593  
Old 05-15-2019, 06:54 PM
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some viewers believe what they want and it does not matter what is in the show. For example some people are 100% sure Tony Soprano

You really should have spoiler boxed that. In response to what you said:

[Moderator Note]

I edited out the spoiler in the other post, as well as the spoiler in yours.

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  #594  
Old 05-15-2019, 07:03 PM
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My recollection is that the Unsullied were required to choose a different insulting name (like "Maggot" or "Puke") out of a hat each morning, and that was their name for the day.

So everyone in the company has to learn everyone else's names afresh each day?


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The hunger strike was to avoid being poisoned.

That's an interesting theory, which meshes with mine upthread. But how long can she keep that up? And what about water?
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  #595  
Old 05-15-2019, 07:30 PM
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That's an interesting theory, which meshes with mine upthread. But how long can she keep that up? And what about water?
I had the impression her lack of appetite was real, but coincidentally thwarted Varys. If she was worried about that, she could have had someone of unquestioned loyalty like one of the Unsullied prepare her food, or use some other strategy. And the first person she accused of betraying her to Tyrion was Jon, and poison would never have been Jon's way.

Last edited by Colibri; 05-15-2019 at 07:33 PM.
  #596  
Old 05-15-2019, 07:43 PM
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So everyone in the company has to learn everyone else's names afresh each day?
I believe I was mistaken about that. Grey Worm says something like "the name I had on the day I was taken as a boy is cursed, but this name is lucky, because it's the name I had the day Daenerys Stormborn freed me". So maybe I overextrapolated. A quick search doesn't show me anything from that episode that says they literally got assigned different names each day though.
  #597  
Old 05-15-2019, 07:51 PM
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theres this https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/th...BBnb4R7#page=2

is this last season that bad?
  #598  
Old 05-15-2019, 07:54 PM
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I have a feeling of vague dissatisfaction about the major confrontations between characters, and I think it's because of: fight choreography. Or rather, the lack of it. We could have had thrilling duels between swordsmen -- not necessarily Errol Flynn/Princess Bride level, given the use of broadswords...but instead we just get grappling and grunting and eye gouging.

A missed opportunity.

btw...according to the "Revealed" video, Jamie vs Euron was "Dane Bowl", since both actors are Danish.
  #599  
Old 05-15-2019, 07:55 PM
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theres this https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/th...BBnb4R7#page=2

is this last season that bad?
No, season 8 is just the culmination of a lot of bad choices leading up to this. There is very little they could change to make it better. There are things they could change to make people less angry, like the way they chose to show the battle for winterfell or the death or rhaegal, but the overall story would stay much the same.
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Old 05-15-2019, 08:04 PM
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note i started another thread other the petition so this wouldn't get hijacked ...
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