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  #301  
Old 04-13-2018, 12:38 PM
Kearsen Kearsen is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
Schools are based on property taxes, so yeah, if the tax base decreases, then the schools have less money to work with.



Sunny Daze had an example. iiandyiiii also pointed out examples of communities and institutions that were destroyed by being broken up.



I don't have an kids in the school system, what refund do I get on my taxes for not using up school resources?


How is it underperforming? It is in the top 10% in the state. Is that not high enough performance for you? Should we break up all the schools that are in the bottom 90%? How does that work?


It is only confusing to those who do not recognize that it is complex. There is no overlap there. You think the solution is simple, and you advocate shutting down schools if they are not in the top 5% or so. That is a simple solution, but it is a terrible solution.
Actually, what I find confusing is you talking about black communities in totality and then pointing to one location that isn't all that black (30% white) and talking about it like it is across the US (in that way)

It isn't. The underperforming schools (ALL of them) should be broken up and bussed to the better performing schools (in small enough amounts to affect the change). If that school is doing fine, then great on them! But I am only talking about a fix for the underperforming ones. You keep conflating the issues of what you see as racist and the school dilemma. I am only talking about the education gap.

1 at a time.
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  #302  
Old 04-13-2018, 12:40 PM
Kearsen Kearsen is offline
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Great! You do realize that one of the best ways to fix these communities is through education right?
Sure , which is why there is a fix proposed. That some of you either cant see the forest through the trees, or you are concerned about something different than education.
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  #303  
Old 04-13-2018, 12:47 PM
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Sure , which is why there is a fix proposed. That some of you either cant see the forest through the trees, or you are concerned about something different than education.
I don't follow. What forest am I missing?
  #304  
Old 04-13-2018, 01:23 PM
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  #305  
Old 04-13-2018, 01:52 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Originally Posted by Kearsen View Post
Actually, what I find confusing is you talking about black communities in totality and then pointing to one location that isn't all that black (30% white) and talking about it like it is across the US (in that way)
I do find confusing that I ask why you think that a high diversity school should be broken up, and you reply by saying that it is underperforming. It's not, it's just highly diverse. Still doesn't prevent white families from moving out of the districts for whiter schools.

I also wonder why you think that I was talking about black communities in totality, when I was talking about communities that had large black populations. Those are not the same things.
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It isn't. The underperforming schools (ALL of them) should be broken up and bussed to the better performing schools (in small enough amounts to affect the change). If that school is doing fine, then great on them! But I am only talking about a fix for the underperforming ones. You keep conflating the issues of what you see as racist and the school dilemma. I am only talking about the education gap.

1 at a time.
What is an underperforming school in your opinion? Bottom 5%, 10%, 25%, 50%? If there is a school that is just under your cutoff, would you give it a chance to see if it can be improved, or just break it up? If it happens to have a great band program or sports program, or the students and community take pride in it, but the funding has been lacking so test scores are not as good as the schools with more funding, is breaking up that school the best thing to do?

If you have a school that has quite a number of highly gifted students who are on college track, but also has a fair number of students that are not motivated, due to home and personal issues, to do much academically, is breaking up that school actually going to help anyone?

Schools are part of the community, and the community is part of the school. If the only thing that you are concerned about is the education gap, and you are willing to ignore possible harms to the community in your efforts to see an increase in test scores, then you are missing more than just a forest as you point out twigs.
  #306  
Old 04-13-2018, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
Schools are based on property taxes, so yeah, if the tax base decreases, then the schools have less money to work with
But won't there be fewer students to teach? Therefore, the school doesn't need as much money.

Last edited by manson1972; 04-13-2018 at 01:58 PM. Reason: less/fewer whatever
  #307  
Old 04-13-2018, 02:11 PM
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Post 301 among others.
Still not clear on what forest I am missing.
  #308  
Old 04-13-2018, 02:16 PM
Marcus Flavius Marcus Flavius is offline
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We should not be forcing young people to waste a good chunk of their lives sitting in a classroom learning mostly useless information.
  #309  
Old 04-13-2018, 02:16 PM
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But won't there be fewer students to teach? Therefore, the school doesn't need as much money.
It's not that clearcut. Tenure and other teacher contract items can make it difficult to layoff teachers (this can differ greatly in different areas depending on the contracts they negotiated).

Then you have the physical building and grounds whose cost to maintain does not really diminish with fewer students.
  #310  
Old 04-13-2018, 02:25 PM
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manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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It's not that clearcut. Tenure and other teacher contract items can make it difficult to layoff teachers (this can differ greatly in different areas depending on the contracts they negotiated).
Seems like something that could be fixed.

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Then you have the physical building and grounds whose cost to maintain does not really diminish with fewer students.
I admit, I've got nothing for this.


But on a related note, when the white families move out, aren't other non-white families moving in? Or are we just positing that the houses formerly owned by white people are just abandoned for all time?

Last edited by manson1972; 04-13-2018 at 02:26 PM.
  #311  
Old 04-13-2018, 02:27 PM
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But won't there be fewer students to teach? Therefore, the school doesn't need as much money.
Depends on exactly how they lose the kids. My kids' parochial school covered pre-K through 8th grade. Let's say they have 300 kids total, 30 in each class/grade. They lose 30 kids. If they lose three kids from each class, the school will only save on consumables- they will use less soap, less paper etc. Teachers don't get paid less for teaching 27 kids and their benefits don't cost less because they are only teaching 27 kids. Because the school was so small, there was one principal and one secretary, so they couldn't cut back any more on that. The only way to save more money than the costs of soap, etc is to get rid of some program altogether - but that only works if there is an optional program that can be given up without affecting the rankings.

Now if losing 30 kids meant they lost the entire second-grade class, that would save a more substantial amount of money. But as long as they have a second-grade class, the costs for it will be virtually the same whether there are 10 kids in the class or 30.
  #312  
Old 04-13-2018, 03:10 PM
Kearsen Kearsen is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
I do find confusing that I ask why you think that a high diversity school should be broken up, and you reply by saying that it is underperforming. It's not, it's just highly diverse. Still doesn't prevent white families from moving out of the districts for whiter schools.

I also wonder why you think that I was talking about black communities in totality, when I was talking about communities that had large black populations. Those are not the same things.


What is an underperforming school in your opinion? Bottom 5%, 10%, 25%, 50%? If there is a school that is just under your cutoff, would you give it a chance to see if it can be improved, or just break it up? If it happens to have a great band program or sports program, or the students and community take pride in it, but the funding has been lacking so test scores are not as good as the schools with more funding, is breaking up that school the best thing to do?

If you have a school that has quite a number of highly gifted students who are on college track, but also has a fair number of students that are not motivated, due to home and personal issues, to do much academically, is breaking up that school actually going to help anyone?

Schools are part of the community, and the community is part of the school. If the only thing that you are concerned about is the education gap, and you are willing to ignore possible harms to the community in your efforts to see an increase in test scores, then you are missing more than just a forest as you point out twigs.
Sounds to me like that one school you are referring to is doing fine, no need to educate the educated.

Who are we trying to educate?
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  #313  
Old 04-13-2018, 03:45 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Sounds to me like that one school you are referring to is doing fine, no need to educate the educated.

Who are we trying to educate?
Kids. No matter how good a school system they are in, they don't start out educated.
  #314  
Old 04-13-2018, 04:14 PM
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I yearn for the olden days, when Americans understood there was a middle ground between black and white, that the Liberty to send one's children to private schools could be combined with the Responsibility to provide good public education for those who want it. For example, we can require all taxpayers to contribute to public schools whether their children attend public schools or not, or in fact whether they even have children or not.

In post-rational America many seem to think that Hyperlibertarianism and Marxism are the only two options available to us.

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No. We shouldn’t be mandated to crappy service with no real recourse....
It's smart of you to acknowledge that private schools and privately-operated charter schools often provide crappy service in comparison with public schools but noone except Betsy DeVos and her ilk advocates mandating that children attend such inferior schools.

AFAICT, DeVos' strategy for making her private schools look better than public schools is to deliberately sabotage public schools. IIRC, she is on record as proposing that reducing their revenue is the way to improve public schools.
  #315  
Old 04-13-2018, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by septimus View Post
I yearn for the olden days, when Americans understood there was a middle ground between black and white, that the Liberty to send one's children to private schools could be combined with the Responsibility to provide good public education for those who want it. For example, we can require all taxpayers to contribute to public schools whether their children attend public schools or not, or in fact whether they even have children or not.

In post-rational America many seem to think that Hyperlibertarianism and Marxism are the only two options available to us.



It's smart of you to acknowledge that private schools and privately-operated charter schools often provide crappy service in comparison with public schools but noone except Betsy DeVos and her ilk advocates mandating that children attend such inferior schools.

AFAICT, DeVos' strategy for making her private schools look better than public schools is to deliberately sabotage public schools. IIRC, she is on record as proposing that reducing their revenue is the way to improve public schools.
Amen. It's more of the "it's all about the money" approach to education.

Things like curricula, class size, methods used by successful public schools, etc., get ignored - or they get turned into being purely about money.
  #316  
Old 04-14-2018, 05:59 AM
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Who remembers President Carter participating in a live phone in show with Walter Cronkite hosting? Millions of people called in to ask President Carter questions - one person who got through to the line asked why he sent his daughter to a public school.
  #317  
Old 04-14-2018, 08:12 AM
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Sure , which is why there is a fix proposed. That some of you either cant see the forest through the trees, or you are concerned about something different than education.
Your fix is both impractical and simplistic. A true fix is going to require a lot of work, a lot of changes to our society, a lot of different particulars based on different communities.
  #318  
Old 04-15-2018, 11:26 PM
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There's home schooling and then there's home schooling.

Home schooling to isolate kids from the influence of dangerous things like thinking for yourself and learning about the world is far too common. It's mostly religious.

snip.
Yep. My older niece is pregnant with her third kid and is already determined that all of the kids she ever has will be home-schooled.
Reasons: 1. She and her husband will not vaccinate; 2. She doesn't want the kiddos learning that the Earth is really old, and who knows what else.

I could intervene and corrupt and try to subvert the kids but I'm sure that would set off WWIII within the fam.
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  #319  
Old 04-16-2018, 07:30 AM
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We ended up homeschooling for two years in the Midwest simply because we knew we were moving back east and were falling behind. We once went to some local homeschoolers group meeting and...wow. The crazy was strong.

But I'm sure glad we had the option.

Last edited by Ruken; 04-16-2018 at 07:32 AM.
  #320  
Old 04-16-2018, 05:00 PM
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The Kansas City Missouri school district is so bad even black families move out.

Which is even worse than losing white families because at least these black parents cared about their kids and the school. I talked to one coworker (black) who was frustrated by this because he wanted to stay and help the black community but he was so angry at the schools. I told him he should think of his kids first and he could find schools in the suburbs with at least some minority kids and with good academics.
  #321  
Old 04-16-2018, 05:09 PM
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There have been mentions in this very thread that sometimes the best thing to do is to shut down a school, and disperse the students to other schools. The problem is is that should not be the only solution.
They did that a few years ago in Kansas City Missouri.

Some high schools like Westport were shut down due to budget cuts and low enrollment. It also had terrible academics. Now Southwest high school was doing well. It had a college prep curriculum and was a magnet program so they could kick out the bad kids. They also had strong community support with many local people volunteering. It was a "Let's work together to fix this" attitude.

Well the district saw a "bad" school and moved the kids to a "good" school and the result - chaos. The bad kids ruined the college prep program. The Principal quit. Then his replacement quit. They bribed another guy to just finish the year out. The superintendent quit (right after getting a big award). Everyday at the school was a near riot. The school ordered all the volunteers out - Why? They were telling the media what was happening and the district wanted to keep it quiet.

Soon all the gains made were ruined.

So you cannot just move all the bad kids to good schools.
  #322  
Old 04-16-2018, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
Oops...your racism is showing. Let me fix that for you:

"It is well known that being poor has inherent struggles that cause academic deficit among other issues within it."

And just an FYI: Not all black people are poor and their kids do great in school same as white kids.
I hate to break it to you but there ARE differences in learning styles between black and white kids. Here is one article on the subject;.

It's not good or bad. Its just different. For example black kids are more into a give and take type of lesson. Ever been to a black church? Notice how they often speak up with "AMEN" or "THATS RIGHT"?

Now part of the problem is few will admit this and teacher training programs are "one size fits all" when teachers need training specifically for this population.

HERE is a great article called 9 Things Every Teacher should Know About Teaching Black Students.

Here is another one called "Dear White Teacher".
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