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  #6201  
Old 12-14-2019, 07:56 PM
Sterling Archer is offline
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Originally Posted by jsc1953 View Post
I have a fantasy that the Senate trial begins, and the House managers immediately move that McConnel's actions -- "coordinating" the Senate rules with the White House, freely admitted to Fox News -- constitute jury tampering. Roberts agrees, bangs the gavel, and the "rules" are null and void and McConnell is kicked off the jury.

A guy can dream....
It does seem hugely problematic that the jury has already decided what the result will be before the trial. There's got to be some kind of challenge the D's can make about their oaths as a Senate juror or something.
  #6202  
Old 12-14-2019, 08:36 PM
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It does seem hugely problematic that the jury has already decided what the result will be before the trial. There's got to be some kind of challenge the D's can make about their oaths as a Senate juror or something.
Why? Impeachment is a political process. Better be sure the political rewards are worth the political risk.
  #6203  
Old 12-14-2019, 09:06 PM
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Did you hear that one Republican say "We wouldn't do this to them." after Nadler's scheduling the morning vote? These people have no self-perception at all.
Lindsey Graham, 1998:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rep. Lindsey Graham
And somebody mentioned if a Republican President would have done this, let me just say this: it would be a good test for us. If a Republican President had done these things, would a Republican delegation going to tell him to get out of town?

I hope so. I would like to think that we would have done that. Only time will tell what happens here.
  #6204  
Old 12-14-2019, 09:13 PM
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It does seem hugely problematic that the jury has already decided what the result will be before the trial. There's got to be some kind of challenge the D's can make about their oaths as a Senate juror or something.
The oath to be taken by the Senators:
Quote:
Form of oath to be administered to the members of the Senate sitting in the trial of
impeachments:
I solemnly swear (or affirm, as the case may be,) that in all things appertaining to the trial
of the impeachment of , now pending, I will do impartial justice according to the
Constitution and laws: so help me God.
From the Senate Impeachment Rules.

So, yeah, if McConnell (or Graham) take that oath, given what they've already said...
  #6205  
Old 12-14-2019, 09:31 PM
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It does seem hugely problematic that the jury has already decided what the result will be before the trial. There's got to be some kind of challenge the D's can make about their oaths as a Senate juror or something.
I think it's more a question for John Roberts. As the presiding officer and, in essence, the person seeing to it that the trial is conducted fairly and honestly, he probably could consider evicting or imprisoning any senator who made clear that they intended to faithlessly execute their Constitutional role.

And, I hope, he makes the deliberations and vote secret.
  #6206  
Old 12-14-2019, 10:17 PM
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I think it's more a question for John Roberts. As the presiding officer and, in essence, the person seeing to it that the trial is conducted fairly and honestly, he probably could consider evicting or imprisoning any senator who made clear that they intended to faithlessly execute their Constitutional role.
My bold

Ha!

Quote:
And, I hope, he makes the deliberations and vote secret.
Again, ha!
  #6207  
Old 12-14-2019, 10:23 PM
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I'm thinking that he presides in accordance with rules set by the Senate itself.

Besides, if he were to weigh in an a manner than would strongly promote removal, scholars from the Federalist Society would be quick to point out the Constitutional flaws. On the other hand, if he makes a ruling that demands acquittal, legal scholars from Antifas and the Soros/Clinton Conspiracy....
  #6208  
Old 12-14-2019, 10:28 PM
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...And, I hope, he makes the deliberations and vote secret.
Oh. Hell, no! These are some more of the times that try men's souls, and their spines as well. If they haven't enough grit to do what we sent them to do and tell us why they did, they have no legitimate right to an elected position of power. Gutless sacks of sewer soup.
  #6209  
Old 12-14-2019, 10:35 PM
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Oh. Hell, no! These are some more of the times that try men's souls, and their spines as well. If they haven't enough grit to do what we sent them to do and tell us why they did, they have no legitimate right to an elected position of power. Gutless sacks of sewer soup.
They are gutless. Do you expect some good to come of proving that?
  #6210  
Old 12-14-2019, 10:38 PM
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I'm thinking that he presides in accordance with rules set by the Senate itself.
Yes, so unfortunately it's unlikely that he'll be able to do anything but sit there and be bored.
  #6211  
Old 12-14-2019, 11:51 PM
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Lindsey Graham, 1998:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rep. Lindsey Graham
And somebody mentioned if a Republican President would have done this, let me just say this: it would be a good test for us. If a Republican President had done these things, would a Republican delegation going to tell him to get out of town?

I hope so. I would like to think that we would have done that. Only time will tell what happens here.
Lindsey Graham, 2019:

Quote:
Originally Posted by https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/14/politics/lindsey-graham-trump-impeachment-trial/index.html
Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham, chairman of the Judiciary Committee and a close ally of President Donald Trump, said he will do everything in his power to quickly end an expected impeachment trial in the Republican-led Senate.

"This thing will come to the Senate, and it will die quickly, and I will do everything I can to make it die quickly," the South Carolina Republican said Saturday during an interview with CNN International's Becky Anderson at the Doha Forum in Qatar.

"I am trying to give a pretty clear signal I have made up my mind. I'm not trying to pretend to be a fair juror here," Graham said, adding, "What I see coming, happening today is just a partisan nonsense."
(bolding mine)

Last edited by simster; 12-14-2019 at 11:52 PM.
  #6212  
Old 12-14-2019, 11:55 PM
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It does seem hugely problematic that the jury has already decided what the result will be before the trial. There's got to be some kind of challenge the D's can make about their oaths as a Senate juror or something.
The only difference is that the Senate R's said their minds out loud. Had they kept their mouths shut, they almost certainly would still be thinking the same thing deep down inside anyway - "No way we're deposing Trump."
  #6213  
Old 12-15-2019, 01:06 AM
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Yeah. Trump's die-hard base of political support is based their stupidity in accepting anything he says at face value. He will tell them it's the best economy in the history of the nation, and they'll believe it, even though they are not economically better off.
Yes, but we don't care about those idiots. Trump is annointed by God and he will get 25% (30%, 35%?) of the vote no matter what. We only need a few percentage points in a few states.
  #6214  
Old 12-15-2019, 01:09 AM
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We still have that one bright hope: that Il Douche will fuck it up.

Why is McTurtle gloating so publicly about his absolute commitment to the man he's supposed to be judging? I think he's trying to trivialize it, make it insignificant. Pitch it to Darth Shit-for-Brains as too unimportant to get involved in. He's hoping against experience that "cooperating" means he gets some control, keep it all toned down and dull, dampen any public interest.

Like the old joke about the lawyer whose asshole client has a minor traffic charge and keeps talking his way into bigger and badder trouble.

Punchline is the lawyer saying "You shoulda just paid the two dollars."
  #6215  
Old 12-15-2019, 01:17 AM
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We still have that one bright hope: that Il Douche will fuck it up.

Why is McTurtle gloating so publicly about his absolute commitment to the man he's supposed to be judging? I think he's trying to trivialize it, make it insignificant. Pitch it to Darth Shit-for-Brains as too unimportant to get involved in. He's hoping against experience that "cooperating" means he gets some control, keep it all toned down and dull, dampen any public interest.

Like the old joke about the lawyer whose asshole client has a minor traffic charge and keeps talking his way into bigger and badder trouble.

Punchline is the lawyer saying "You shoulda just paid the two dollars."
That's probably one reason McConnell wants a swift Senate trial. To minimize the harm Trump could do.
  #6216  
Old 12-15-2019, 08:56 AM
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Best guesses from the punditti are that McConnell already wants a quick and dirty run-through: in, out, and over. It is Trump who wants to make a circus out of it, bring in witnesses, subpoena Hunter and Joe Biden, so on and so forth.

The central dynamic being that Trump wants a spectacle of absolute vindication, which ends with him being hoisted upon the shoulders of the Senate and carried out to a massive public rally of celebration and support. He can't accept mere winning, he must crush his enemies, scatter their horses, etc.
I can't help imagining a scenario in which McConnell's rules are that he and Pelosi arrive in the Senate chamber equipped with long wooden staffs. At the signal, they cast their staffs onto the floor in front of Roberts, at which point they transform into snakes and fight. Whichever snake wins is the side God prefers. Complete vindication all the way to the top, and easy to follow for the home audience. Quick, too.

I mean, let's face it: evidence, laws, reasoning, due process, debate and not apologia, conclusions instead of faith, honesty instead of loyalty- that shit's for liberals.
  #6217  
Old 12-15-2019, 09:12 AM
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They are gutless. Do you expect some good to come of proving that?
Yes. The point is to make sure that Dem voters are good and pissed at their GOP Senators, and show up and vote against GOP incumbent Senators this coming fall. We want to blow Dem turnout through the roof in November.
  #6218  
Old 12-15-2019, 09:18 AM
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Yes. The point is to make sure that Dem voters are good and pissed at their GOP Senators, and show up and vote against GOP incumbent Senators this coming fall. We want to blow Dem turnout through the roof in November.
And hope that those Dems haven't already been purged from the voter rolls.
  #6219  
Old 12-15-2019, 10:41 AM
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... I read somewhere recently that the biggest factor when people decide who to vote for was the general trend of the country. That this was more important than any specific issue. Wish I had the link.
No link needed; it's well known. Tariffs were the key issue of the 19th century; and the 1912 election went to the Ds when a Republican Prez (Taft) and ex-Prez (Roosevelt) ran against each other to split the GOP vote. But ever since then, no incumbent President has ever been defeated unless the economy was in bad shape.

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... The economy now with Trump is basically the same as the economy with Obama. Stock market is up, unemployment is down, jobs are being added every month. But many people are struggling.... And so they voted for Trump who would change things for them. Suddenly they started to notice the numbers and the reports, and believed that eventually this ďnewĒ economy would, well, trickle down to them. But it has now been three years and it hasnít happened and it will not happen in the next year. And I think there are going to be enough voters who realize this to make the difference in this election.
Maybe. But farmers who've been hard hit by Trump's tariffs blame the Dems for their woes!

I predict signs of a mild recession by the Spring. The Fed will react with QE and big interest rate cuts. Trump will abandon his trade war and call for big stimulus. Dems will be in a dilemma: the stimulus will be irresponsible but the Dems will be the Grinch who stole Christmas if they vote No. The economy will muddle along but with an unprecedented and ever-growing debt bubble; Trump will be re-elected. Then, as concern grows about the debt bubble, expect a world-wide wave of recessions, defaults and devaluations over the next decade.
  #6220  
Old 12-15-2019, 11:08 AM
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I wonder why some Dems are excited by this impeachment . Do they not know how it ends? It's going to pump up some Dems next Nov. but also GOP voters.

Last edited by Bijou Drains; 12-15-2019 at 11:09 AM.
  #6221  
Old 12-15-2019, 12:06 PM
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"I wonder why the cops arrest people for committing crimes? They're just going to do it again. Besides everyone commits crimes."
  #6222  
Old 12-15-2019, 12:15 PM
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That's probably one reason McConnell wants a swift Senate trial. To minimize the harm Trump could do.
Agreed. It'd be especially fun if Trump insists on testifying in his own defense against all logic, but that's probably unlikely.
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  #6223  
Old 12-15-2019, 12:16 PM
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I'm not seeing any excitement from Democrats.
Yes, everyone is pretty sure how the Senate will vote.
Jeepers, it seems like we've recently been over all of this, but what the hey: Whether this energizes one side's voters over the others- time will tell.
  #6224  
Old 12-15-2019, 12:21 PM
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If the rules allowed for the calling of witnesses, the Republicans would call Hunter Biden, and the Democrats would call Bolton and Pompeo. I’d take that trade in a heartbeat, which is why McConnell will never let it happen.
  #6225  
Old 12-15-2019, 12:25 PM
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No halfway decent lawyer will let Trump get within 10 miles of the witness chair.
  #6226  
Old 12-15-2019, 12:33 PM
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In a way, I'm glad that the Senate is being so open about making the impeachment process a total sham. As I've said repeatedly, impeachment is a political process (as octopus has said). Let's expose impeachment for what it is -- just get it out into the open, and let's once and for all ditch the idea that constitutions are magical sacred texts that have the power to save democracies from corruption and political chicanery -- no more illusions, folks. In a democracy, in a society that values liberty and justice for all, there can be no outsourcing of civic duty; it's up to people to save themselves, from themselves.

Mitch McConnell and Lindsay Graham, even more than Donald J Trump himself, have laid out your work for you: get rid of the entire Republican party in the upcoming elections. Period.
  #6227  
Old 12-15-2019, 12:34 PM
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Trump's answer to being impeached for criminal phone call is to not let others listen in anymore.
  #6228  
Old 12-15-2019, 12:35 PM
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In direct contradiction to my previous post: We should have held off on putting Michael Cohen in jail. He would of advised Trump testify.
  #6229  
Old 12-15-2019, 12:37 PM
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I wonder why some Dems are excited by this impeachment . Do they not know how it ends? It's going to pump up some Dems next Nov. but also GOP voters.
I think it's important to show that McConnell and Trump are conspiring together, and that the Republicans in Senate are not even going to pretend to have a fair process.

This screwing with the constitution and abrogation of their senate duties should be hammered and hammered in the 2020 election. It should be made clear that a complete and utter housecleaning is in order at the House and Senate level, not just with the president.

2020 should be fought as a referendum; Do we want a King in the Whitehouse, who can do absolutely anything he or she wants, with a Senate of obedient courtiers who praise and flatter the King and are paid off by corporations and foreign governments?

Because that is the route that Republican Senators are choosing.
  #6230  
Old 12-15-2019, 01:17 PM
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Yes. The point is to make sure that Dem voters are good and pissed at their GOP Senators, and show up and vote against GOP incumbent Senators this coming fall. We want to blow Dem turnout through the roof in November.
I suppose that's fair.

Personally, I'd like to see some evidence that there is some worthwhile human being who has been elected to office - even if still gutless. Winning elections might be great and all but there is such a thing as a pyrrhic victory and I would note that for as bad as Trump might be, he's a symptom of the system and none of the Democrats on offer have proposed even a single adjustment for it.

I'd hate to see what happens if a smarter Trump landed in the office. At this point, we're just bucking the odds each and every election.
  #6231  
Old 12-15-2019, 01:34 PM
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No link needed; it's well known. Tariffs were the key issue of the 19th century; and the 1912 election went to the Ds when a Republican Prez (Taft) and ex-Prez (Roosevelt) ran against each other to split the GOP vote. But ever since then, no incumbent President has ever been defeated unless the economy was in bad shape.







Maybe. But farmers who've been hard hit by Trump's tariffs blame the Dems for their woes!



I predict signs of a mild recession by the Spring. The Fed will react with QE and big interest rate cuts. Trump will abandon his trade war and call for big stimulus. Dems will be in a dilemma: the stimulus will be irresponsible but the Dems will be the Grinch who stole Christmas if they vote No.

Agree we will see a recession next year but I don’t see Trump fighting for a stimulus package. He will revel in the misery, blaming democrats and the impeachment for the downturn and his base will eat it up. He will simultaneously claim that it’s only the liberals in the city who are getting hurt by the economy, and take glee in that, and also blame the democrats for the overall recession.
  #6232  
Old 12-15-2019, 01:35 PM
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... for as bad as Trump might be, he's a symptom of the system and none of the Democrats on offer have proposed even a single adjustment for it.
Excellent point. I would dearly love for the next debate to stop yammering about health care for a moment, and ask all the candidates: what legislation would you propose that would prevent the abuses of the Trump Administration from happening again?
  #6233  
Old 12-15-2019, 01:35 PM
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Oh he will also blame the Fed for not lowering rates to negative values.
  #6234  
Old 12-15-2019, 01:50 PM
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I feel like the Republicans have landed on an ultimate argument for backing Trump, "We don't want to open up the Presidency to political removal."

And, to some extent, that is fair. The bar for impeachment is quite high for exactly that reason. The Founders did not want the President to be removed simply because Congress did not agree with their policies or whatever all else.

But, I would suggest that we are in this hole because the general public looked at Crooked Hillary and Don the Con and each was so afraid of the monstrosity being put forward by the other side that everyone was afraid to vote for any other candidate but their own monster. And yet, a very simple solution to prevent that would be, "Don't vote for crooks." If you just did that one simple thing, religiously, and everyone just did that one simple thing - which is, in fact, exactly what they are being tasked to do by the Constitution - we wouldn't have this problem.

Say, for example, that you go to a race car track and the teen employee goes over the rules; stay on the course, don't come into contact with the other cars, wear your safety harness, etc. But you and your crew don't like the "stay on the course" rule so you decide not to do that, because it wouldn't be fun. One of you drives into a tree and dies. Well fuck this place, why don't they have pads on the trees!? You sue the place and force them to add safety equipment to the trees. People still die every once in a while, because the pads don't really do much to save anyone (if anything, they just encourage people to play it more risky), but you can't sue them anymore because they have put up the government mandated safety equipment. But you know, wouldn't it be fun to start ramming each other? ...And then more of your friends die. What the fuck is wrong with this place!? Lawsuit 2 ensues.

Arguing that you don't want to politicize impeachment is stupid when your solution to that is to politicize impeachment.

Just like there is a secret and hidden method for avoiding having all your friends die - known as "listening to the fucking rules that were made to keep you alive, dumbass" - there is a secret and hidden method to going about impeachment in a way that will not endanger the Constitution: Obey the Constitution.
  #6235  
Old 12-15-2019, 03:59 PM
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I feel like the Republicans have landed on an ultimate argument for backing Trump, "We don't want to open up the Presidency to political removal."

And, to some extent, that is fair. The bar for impeachment is quite high for exactly that reason. The Founders did not want the President to be removed simply because Congress did not agree with their policies or whatever all else.

But, I would suggest that we are in this hole because the general public looked at Crooked Hillary and Don the Con and each was so afraid of the monstrosity being put forward by the other side that everyone was afraid to vote for any other candidate but their own monster. And yet, a very simple solution to prevent that would be, "Don't vote for crooks." If you just did that one simple thing, religiously, and everyone just did that one simple thing - which is, in fact, exactly what they are being tasked to do by the Constitution - we wouldn't have this problem.

Say, for example, that you go to a race car track and the teen employee goes over the rules; stay on the course, don't come into contact with the other cars, wear your safety harness, etc. But you and your crew don't like the "stay on the course" rule so you decide not to do that, because it wouldn't be fun. One of you drives into a tree and dies. Well fuck this place, why don't they have pads on the trees!? You sue the place and force them to add safety equipment to the trees. People still die every once in a while, because the pads don't really do much to save anyone (if anything, they just encourage people to play it more risky), but you can't sue them anymore because they have put up the government mandated safety equipment. But you know, wouldn't it be fun to start ramming each other? ...And then more of your friends die. What the fuck is wrong with this place!? Lawsuit 2 ensues.

Arguing that you don't want to politicize impeachment is stupid when your solution to that is to politicize impeachment.

Just like there is a secret and hidden method for avoiding having all your friends die - known as "listening to the fucking rules that were made to keep you alive, dumbass" - there is a secret and hidden method to going about impeachment in a way that will not endanger the Constitution: Obey the Constitution.
The problem with obeying the words in the constitution is that itís possible to lack any integrity at all and deconstruct and redefine language to mean anything the powerful want it to mean. Furthermore, for whatever reason, powerful institutions attract the most power hungry and least restrained individuals. This is the whole idea behind institutional checks and balances.

We the voters should hold the government accountable but when we benefit from abuses of power we tend to succumb to that conflict of interest and look the other way.
  #6236  
Old 12-15-2019, 04:02 PM
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No halfway decent lawyer will let Trump get within 10 miles of the witness chair.
Fortunately, HIS lawyer is Rudy Colludiani.

Last edited by kaylasdad99; 12-15-2019 at 04:03 PM.
  #6237  
Old 12-15-2019, 04:06 PM
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Just like there is a secret and hidden method for avoiding having all your friends die - known as "listening to the fucking rules that were made to keep you alive, dumbass" - there is a secret and hidden method to going about impeachment in a way that will not endanger the Constitution: Obey the Constitution.
Unfortunately, it seems to me that Republicans are of the opinion that the Constitution is just a stupid fucking piece of paper that gets in the way of their quest to consolidate complete power in a kleptocracy.
  #6238  
Old 12-15-2019, 04:22 PM
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I wonder why some Dems are excited by this impeachment . Do they not know how it ends? It's going to pump up some Dems next Nov. but also GOP voters.
Such concern.
So concern.

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  #6239  
Old 12-15-2019, 04:48 PM
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Apparently some Democrats are angling to get Justin Amash to serve as the impeachment manager. I don't know much about him other than that he's a conservative who opposes Trump and left the Republican party. So I guess he has an air of nonpartisanship about him. But if you were a Republican before Trump you still don't rank all that high in my book, so I don't trust him.
https://twitter.com/rachaelmbade/sta...303134727?s=19
  #6240  
Old 12-15-2019, 04:54 PM
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I don't see Pelosi letting a non Dem run the show. They may allow him to help present the case.
  #6241  
Old 12-15-2019, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by septimus View Post
... I predict signs of a mild recession by the Spring. The Fed will react with QE and big interest rate cuts. Trump will abandon his trade war and call for big stimulus. Dems will be in a dilemma: the stimulus will be irresponsible but the Dems will be the Grinch who stole Christmas if they vote No. The economy will muddle along but with an unprecedented and ever-growing debt bubble; Trump will be re-elected. Then, as concern grows about the debt bubble, expect a world-wide wave of recessions, defaults and devaluations over the next decade.
This will be greeted with delight by many on the right: finally, their chance to end all Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid!

Paul Ryan will be ecstatic.



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Originally Posted by jsc1953 View Post
Excellent point. I would dearly love for the next debate to stop yammering about health care for a moment, and ask all the candidates: what legislation would you propose that would prevent the abuses of the Trump Administration from happening again?
They don't want to do anything that would lessen the power of the office they hope to hold.

Each and every one of them would say 'I will need that power to undo what Trump has done; I can be trusted with that power because I am a Good Person.'

It's a real problem. No President will go along with restricting the power of the Presidency.



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Originally Posted by octopus View Post
The problem with obeying the words in the constitution is that itís possible to lack any integrity at all and deconstruct and redefine language to mean anything the powerful want it to mean. Furthermore, for whatever reason, powerful institutions attract the most power hungry and least restrained individuals. This is the whole idea behind institutional checks and balances.

We the voters should hold the government accountable but when we benefit from abuses of power we tend to succumb to that conflict of interest and look the other way.
I agree with 100% of your post.


[all emphasis in the quotes is mine]
  #6242  
Old 12-15-2019, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
there is such a thing as a pyrrhic victory and I would note that for as bad as Trump might be, he's a symptom of the system and none of the Democrats on offer have proposed even a single adjustment for it.
ISTM that the changes Warren and Sanders have proposed go pretty far. Not sure what kind of 'adjustment' you're looking for.
  #6243  
Old 12-15-2019, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
I predict signs of a mild recession by the Spring. The Fed will react with QE and big interest rate cuts. Trump will abandon his trade war and call for big stimulus. Dems will be in a dilemma: the stimulus will be irresponsible but the Dems will be the Grinch who stole Christmas if they vote No.
The solution is for the Democrats to propose a really huge stimulus with lots of progressive sugarplums. Make the Republicans the grinch.
  #6244  
Old 12-16-2019, 12:14 AM
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How are we supposed to pay for this stimulus when we're already running Trillion dollar deficits? The next recession is going to really suck.
  #6245  
Old 12-16-2019, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by octopus View Post
The problem with obeying the words in the constitution is that it’s possible to lack any integrity at all and deconstruct and redefine language to mean anything the powerful want it to mean. Furthermore, for whatever reason, powerful institutions attract the most power hungry and least restrained individuals. This is the whole idea behind institutional checks and balances.
Or, doing your part as a voter and not voting for crooks and cranks? No system works against people who fundamentally don't care and who are willing to lie and cheat 100% to get their way. It's like expecting cats to move in a nice and orderly line in the direction you want them to go, because you asked them to politely. That's not how it works.

Checks and balances may be wonderful and all, but electing people with integrity is the real solution. And I would say that if you believe that you have an argument against that, you are wrong and you are not helping.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 12-16-2019 at 12:37 AM.
  #6246  
Old 12-16-2019, 02:52 AM
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Some it seems many analysts are sure that the course for the impeachment is quite clear: Trump will continue blocking his cronies from testifying, the senate will acquit and public opinion will probably not move much.

What's the chance of a curve ball now? I still feel that if his tax returns or the full transcript were released, there just might be something so damning even the fox bubble can't keep it out.
Is it out of the question that any of those court cases get expedited?
  #6247  
Old 12-16-2019, 03:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Fugazi View Post
How are we supposed to pay for this stimulus when we're already running Trillion dollar deficits? The next recession is going to really suck.
Yes, but that's the perverse incentive of a political system like America's - you get to run up stimulus spending and pass the hot potato of debt and deficit to the next administration, which is likely to be of the opposite political stripe as yours.

So it's a win-win: Not only do you get an economic boost during your term in office, but your opponents get whammied by a recession during theirs.

Last edited by Velocity; 12-16-2019 at 03:08 AM.
  #6248  
Old 12-16-2019, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
Yes, but that's the perverse incentive of a political system like America's - you get to run up stimulus spending and pass the hot potato of debt and deficit to the next administration, which is likely to be of the opposite political stripe as yours.

So it's a win-win: Not only do you get an economic boost during your term in office, but your opponents get whammied by a recession during theirs.
My bold.

"You get to run up stimulus spending and pass the hot potato of debt and deficit to the next administration" -- Don't forget: AND you get to blame your successors for the mess YOU created! Here's the really good part: people believe you! Just tooooo sweet.

Last edited by ThelmaLou; 12-16-2019 at 06:15 AM.
  #6249  
Old 12-16-2019, 06:23 AM
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How are we supposed to pay for this stimulus when we're already running Trillion dollar deficits? The next recession is going to really suck.
Depending on how long we continue on the current course, our next economic crisis could be like those in Argentina over the past few years. Sometimes, a minor recession here and there isn't a bad thing. It allows governments and central banks an opportunity to reset fiscal policy. But with central banks perpetually taking into political considerations into account, they feed into fiscal irresponsibility that makes us feel good by pointing out that we've had 8 or 9 years of GDP growth, but ultimately prevents us from the very necessary process of resetting fiscal priorities. And so for that reason, I'd have to agree: the next recession could crush us.
  #6250  
Old 12-16-2019, 06:50 AM
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Trump is claiming Pelosi's teeth are falling out. Another example of his mental illness

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nancy...b0ae01a1e279d2
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