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  #501  
Old 05-13-2019, 09:34 PM
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None of the above, mate. I can tell you have drunk the Kool-Aid and know very little about Israel/Palestine and the Zionist interests that perpetuate the barbarity over there. You're not going to Holocaust guilt me.
You can stop talking now, mate. You've made your position abundantly clear.
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  #502  
Old 05-13-2019, 09:43 PM
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None of the above, mate. I can tell you have drunk the Kool-Aid and know very little about Israel/Palestine and the Zionist interests that perpetuate the barbarity over there. You're not going to Holocaust guilt me.
Barbarity? Do you consider suicide bombers to be barbaric?
  #503  
Old 05-13-2019, 09:47 PM
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Barbarity? Do you consider suicide bombers to be barbaric?
Suicide bombers? Where, and when? How does that compare to the number of people Israel has killed? Or starved?

You don't know a god damn thing about what goes on over there other than what you watch on Fux News.
  #504  
Old 05-13-2019, 09:51 PM
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Americans are fucking retarded when it comes to having any kind of knowledge about life outside their own country, and Israel is a prime example.

"Oh but Saddam Hussein is a sponsor of Al Qaida"

"Iran is a sponsor of ISIS."

Maybe get out some maps, read some basic Wikipedia, and learn a few things before automatically taking the AIPAC rubber stamp position on everything.

p.s. The Christian wack nuts aren't the friends of Zionists. They will betray them once they are done using them. Just figured I'd point that out.
  #505  
Old 05-13-2019, 11:06 PM
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.

p.s. The Christian wack nuts aren't the friends of Zionists. They will betray them once they are done using them. Just figured I'd point that out.
Pretty much all Jews are aware of this. We have, in fact, done this a time or two.

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  #506  
Old 05-13-2019, 11:17 PM
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Suicide bombers? Where, and when? How does that compare to the number of people Israel has killed? Or starved?
....
About 1,350 people in Israel (some of whom were palestinians) have been killed by terror attacks just this century.
  #507  
Old 05-13-2019, 11:24 PM
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Americans are fucking retarded when it comes to having any kind of knowledge about life outside their own country, and Israel is a prime example.

"Oh but Saddam Hussein is a sponsor of Al Qaida"

"Iran is a sponsor of ISIS."
...
No, but he sponsored terrorism and used nerve gas on his own people.

Iran backs Hezbollah, Hamas, the Taliban and al-Qaeda, all known terrorist groups (Hezbollah not as much as the others). Iran is actually foes of ISIL.

But you take out the PLO stamp on everything.
  #508  
Old 05-13-2019, 11:34 PM
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p.s. The Christian wack nuts aren't the friends of Zionists. They will betray them once they are done using them. Just figured I'd point that out.
They will betray them once they are done using them? Are you saying the apocalyptic prophecies are actually going to happen?
  #509  
Old 05-14-2019, 03:06 AM
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It is impossible for Americans to understand the truth about the history of Israel and Palestine because we are exposed to pro-Zionist Holocaust guilt. I don't deny that groups like Hamas have their own agenda and aren't really helping Palestinians, but we only see the "Hamas is evil" side of it in this country. Too many Spielberg films I guess.
I don't know if you know the connotations of the term "holocaust guilt" in far-right circles, but uh... Fucking yikes, dude? What the fuck?

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 05-14-2019 at 03:06 AM.
  #510  
Old 05-14-2019, 05:26 AM
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It is impossible for Americans to understand the truth about the history of Israel and Palestine because we are exposed to pro-Zionist Holocaust guilt. I don't deny that groups like Hamas have their own agenda and aren't really helping Palestinians, but we only see the "Hamas is evil" side of it in this country. Too many Spielberg films I guess.
If you're right, then it's hopeless and not worth discussing. If you're wrong, then maybe we're capable of learning. I'll estimate that since we're humans, we're probably capable of learning -- at least most of us.

But thank you for deigning to share a bit of your wisdom with us hopeless rubes. Even if it's hopeless, how kind it is of you to show us the light, even for a moment!

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  #511  
Old 05-14-2019, 08:13 AM
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Americans are fucking retarded when it comes to having any kind of knowledge about life outside their own country, and Israel is a prime example.

"Oh but Saddam Hussein is a sponsor of Al Qaida"

"Iran is a sponsor of ISIS."

Maybe get out some maps, read some basic Wikipedia, and learn a few things before automatically taking the AIPAC rubber stamp position on everything.

p.s. The Christian wack nuts aren't the friends of Zionists. They will betray them once they are done using them. Just figured I'd point that out.
The sad part is that this is right out of the racist handbook.

The ironic part is that you think your (generally) liberal positions immunize you from being called out on your racist statements.

The insulting part is that you think anyone is impressed or fooled by your vast Wikipedia knowledge of the subject.
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  #512  
Old 05-14-2019, 09:13 AM
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The sad part is that this is right out of the racist handbook.

The ironic part is that you think your (generally) liberal positions immunize you from being called out on your racist statements.

The insulting part is that you think anyone is impressed or fooled by your vast Wikipedia knowledge of the subject.
I wasn't aware that Zionism was a race, but do go on.
  #513  
Old 05-14-2019, 09:17 AM
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I don't know if you know the connotations of the term "holocaust guilt" in far-right circles, but uh... Fucking yikes, dude? What the fuck?
I'm not doing this entire thread over again - you can re-read my positions on this thread, as they have been thoroughly explained.

I wasn't the one who resurrected this thread, either, but the examples of Reps. Omar and Tlaib make it clear that they can't comment on the history of Palestine without being called anti-semites. And the reality is that nobody can criticize Israel without fear of being labeled an anti-semite.
  #514  
Old 05-14-2019, 10:46 AM
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I wasn't aware that Zionism was a race, but do go on.
No, Zionism is the desire of the Jewish people to have a permanent homeland preferably in their historical homeland of Jerusalem and the surrounding areas that made up Judea and Israel back during the second temple period. This desire is largely due to the fact that the Jewish people are regularly rounded up and killed or simply shot with assault rifles in their places of worship when living in other parts of the world.

It has been happening every 60-80 years for a millenia or two.

Your use of Zionist as a slur continues to bug me.

Last edited by NAF1138; 05-14-2019 at 10:48 AM.
  #515  
Old 05-14-2019, 11:05 AM
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I'm not doing this entire thread over again - you can re-read my positions on this thread, as they have been thoroughly explained.

I wasn't the one who resurrected this thread, either, but the examples of Reps. Omar and Tlaib make it clear that they can't comment on the history of Palestine without being called anti-semites. And the reality is that nobody can criticize Israel without fear of being labeled an anti-semite.
I'm on record as saying that calling Tlaib an anti semite for her recent remarks is bullshit.

That doesn't mean she isn't wrong about the history. It just means it's coming from a place of ignorance not antisemitism.

Here is an article that makes the claim that its actually antisemitic. I disagree with the conclusion and the headline, but the content of the article is valuable anyway.

https://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/284...elievable-lies
  #516  
Old 05-14-2019, 11:27 AM
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I wasn't the one who resurrected this thread, either, but the examples of Reps. Omar and Tlaib make it clear that they can't comment on the history of Palestine without being called anti-semites. And the reality is that nobody can criticize Israel without fear of being labeled an anti-semite.
Is that a fact? Let's see...

I think Israel has treated Palestinians in the West Bank terribly. Particularly in casese when they have turned a blind eye to the more radical religious zealots who occupy and build settlements on what has been zoned as Palestinian territory. I think Netanyahu is an asshole. I don't think Israel is the exclusive homeland of Jews and there are displaced Palestinian Arabs who have much more of an immediate ancestral link to Israel than some European and American Jews. I think Christmas beats Hannuka and Easter beats Passover, as holidays go. I think my 'shiksa' wife makes a better hummus than Yotam Ottolenghi.

And I can say all that without resorting to anti-semitic tropes like, "AIPAC rubber stampers", "Zionists!" and "Holocaust guilt!".

Now you try it.
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  #517  
Old 05-14-2019, 12:16 PM
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Criticizing Israel is fraught, just like criticizing African-Americans or Latinos. But there are ways to navigate those minefields without blowing yourself up, and if you misstep, explain yourself.
  #518  
Old 05-14-2019, 03:57 PM
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Is that a fact? Let's see...

I think Israel has treated Palestinians in the West Bank terribly. Particularly in casese when they have turned a blind eye to the more radical religious zealots who occupy and build settlements on what has been zoned as Palestinian territory. I think Netanyahu is an asshole. I don't think Israel is the exclusive homeland of Jews and there are displaced Palestinian Arabs who have much more of an immediate ancestral link to Israel than some European and American Jews. I think Christmas beats Hannuka and Easter beats Passover, as holidays go. I think my 'shiksa' wife makes a better hummus than Yotam Ottolenghi.

And I can say all that without resorting to anti-semitic tropes like, "AIPAC rubber stampers", "Zionists!" and "Holocaust guilt!".

Now you try it.
Yep. Israel is far from blameless. But as long as the other side continues to resort to acts of terrorism, Israel has the moral high ground.

It's pretty simple- Hamas just has to stop the terrorism. It aint working anyway.

But as long as Hamas continues to be a terrorist and racist organization/ government, they are in the wrong. Period.
  #519  
Old 05-14-2019, 04:42 PM
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Yep. Hamas and similar groups need to be eradicated.
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  #520  
Old 05-14-2019, 04:47 PM
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I get a wonderfully calming feeling at the prospect that this thread will continue until the 2020 election, as long as certain dumbass Democratic politicians are unable to STFU.
  #521  
Old 05-14-2019, 05:43 PM
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I get a wonderfully calming feeling at the prospect that this thread will continue until the 2020 election, as long as certain dumbass Democratic politicians are unable to STFU.
Yes, saying absolutely nothing is a very effective way to stop people maliciously misquoting you. In the same way suicide is a very effective way to get people stop telling you to kill yourself.
  #522  
Old 05-14-2019, 08:24 PM
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Yes, saying absolutely nothing is a very effective way to stop people maliciously misquoting you.
I don't see evidence of "misquoting".

Once again we have an ass who thoughtlessly (or more likely, maliciously) said stupid and misleading shit and got called on it, out of genuine outrage and for political gain.

It's oh so nice that Rep. Tlaib's angst over the Holocaust is relieved by her perceptions of injustice done to Palestinians as a result, and even niftier that she loves the idea that her people were made sacrificial lambs in that way.

If she and similar Democratic dodos want to provide the opposition with useful fodder, they should keep yammering on.
  #523  
Old 05-14-2019, 08:38 PM
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I don't see evidence of "misquoting".

Once again we have an ass who thoughtlessly (or more likely, maliciously) said stupid and misleading shit and got called on it, out of genuine outrage and for political gain.
What's the significance of your link? It appears to be using Tlaib's comments as a launching-off point to talk about the history of Jewish refugees in Palestine, but you're presenting it here as some sort of rebuttal or deconstruction of what Tlaib said, and I'm not sure how you're getting that from the piece you linked.

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It's oh so nice that Rep. Tlaib's angst over the Holocaust is relieved by her perceptions of injustice done to Palestinians as a result, and even niftier that she loves the idea that her people were made sacrificial lambs in that way.

If she and similar Democratic dodos want to provide the opposition with useful fodder, they should keep yammering on.
Not sure what the "dubious" smilies are about, there. It seems you're suggesting that Tlaib does not actually feel bad about the Holocaust. That's a pretty strong accusation by itself, but I'm not sure how that squares with your, "Dumbass Democrats need to shut up before they sabotage the whole party," stance - do you think Tlaib should not be expressing remorse over the Holocaust? Even if she's insincere, that seems like the sort of message we would want Democratic politicians sending out.

I'm not really understanding your overall objection, here. What specifically do you think Tlaib was saying? Maybe answer without the sarcasm? Because I think it's obscuring your argument.
  #524  
Old 05-14-2019, 09:19 PM
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Is that a fact? Let's see...

I think Israel has treated Palestinians in the West Bank terribly. Particularly in casese when they have turned a blind eye to the more radical religious zealots who occupy and build settlements on what has been zoned as Palestinian territory. I think Netanyahu is an asshole. I don't think Israel is the exclusive homeland of Jews and there are displaced Palestinian Arabs who have much more of an immediate ancestral link to Israel than some European and American Jews. I think Christmas beats Hannuka and Easter beats Passover, as holidays go. I think my 'shiksa' wife makes a better hummus than Yotam Ottolenghi.

And I can say all that without resorting to anti-semitic tropes like, "AIPAC rubber stampers", "Zionists!" and "Holocaust guilt!".

Now you try it.
AIPAC isn't a trope. AIPAC's and Zionist political influence on American politics isn't a trope; it is a reality.

The problem that Israel has, the problem it will always have, is that Israel's gains were someone else's losses, and that is what a new class of Democratic congresswomen have been sullied for pointing out in the short time that they have served in congress. If you think the problems with Israel and Zionism are strictly about the Bibi Netanyahu era, you are wrong.

FTR, I am a supporter of the 2-state solution but I can already tell that people doubt that and have probably written me off as an anti-semite simply because I have harshly criticized not only Israel but Israel's support from the United States. And on that note, I don't think it is entirely unreasonable to question the loyalty of some - not all, but some - pro-Zionist politicians.

Why, for example, is AIPAC and why are Zionists interested in supporting laws that prohibit American businesses and even individuals from boycotting Israel? Since when did Israel and anything related to Israel become a vital economic or political concern of the United States?

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/florida...501-story.html

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I am referring to the anti-BDS laws that have been passed in 26 states and the U.S. Senate, which provide that anyone supporting boycotts, divestments or sanctions against Israel cannot work as a government employee, and if a business, cannot contract with a government (either state or federal).
Here we have an Israeli-American political organization that is actually pushing for legislation that infringes on the free speech rights of Americans - even to the point of getting them fired from their jobs and denying them economic freedom in the process. And people can't question they're loyalty? I can, and I will. I question the loyalty of Zionists who would support such laws.

p.s. Yes, I realize I quoted from an editorial authored by a rabbi, and I don't question his loyalty for a moment. I want more of that, and less of AIPAC. I'm fine with Jews being Jews, just like I'm fine with Christians being just Christians and Muslims being just Muslims. But when you make your religion and your 'story' more important than my country, my rights, my people, I'm going to criticize it. Don't give a fuck what you have to say about it.

Last edited by asahi; 05-14-2019 at 09:21 PM.
  #525  
Old 05-14-2019, 09:25 PM
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asahi, do you think of yourself as a persuasive person? If so, I can assure you that your efforts, at best, come off as a fixation; at worst, they come off as anti-semitic. Neither which are very persuasive.
  #526  
Old 05-14-2019, 09:41 PM
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asahi, do you think of yourself as a persuasive person? If so, I can assure you that your efforts, at best, come off as a fixation; at worst, they come off as anti-semitic. Neither which are very persuasive.
Of course my comments come off as "anti-semitic" -- because nobody in this country knows shit about the history of, well, pretty much anything but especially Israel. I don't think I've had anyone seriously challenge the historical accuracy of what I've posted in this thread; they just don't like the words I've used in phrasing it.

I don't care if I sound antisemitic - I am not, for whatever that's worth and to the extent that anyone here truly believes me (which I doubt). People have it in their minds that to criticize Israel, to criticize their support of their Jewish homeland is an attack on Jewry, but what I'm saying is that I find it peculiar. The two are separate. Israel and Jews are two separate matters. But for whatever reason they are not.
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Old 05-14-2019, 10:27 PM
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I don't care if I sound antisemitic - I am not, for whatever that's worth and to the extent that anyone here truly believes me (which I doubt).
If you think everyone in the SDMB believes that you are an antisemite, I now understand why you use such emotive and harsh language.

asahi, a discussion requires feeling that you are receiving good faith engagement. You need to feel that the SDMB is giving you good faith engagement for you to give it in return. Try assuming that everyone doesn't hate you. You'll find yourself making better arguments, your rhetoric will be more skilled, and you might be more persuasive.
  #528  
Old 05-14-2019, 10:37 PM
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Of course my comments come off as "anti-semitic" -- because nobody in this country knows shit about the history of, well, pretty much anything but especially Israel. I don't think I've had anyone seriously challenge the historical accuracy of what I've posted in this thread; they just don't like the words I've used in phrasing it.

I don't care if I sound antisemitic - I am not, for whatever that's worth and to the extent that anyone here truly believes me (which I doubt). ...
I have several times, actually.

Ok, if you dont want to come off as anti-semitic, why dont you clearly and unreservedly condemn the terrorism used by Hamas? Because you haven't, in fact you excused it.

We have agreed that Israel has done some bad things. Tell us the bad horrible things done by the PLO and Hamas. Condemn the terrorism. Because anyone who doesn't- is a racist anti semitic.
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Old 05-14-2019, 10:42 PM
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I have several times, actually.

Ok, if you dont want to come off as anti-semitic, why dont you clearly and unreservedly condemn the terrorism used by Hamas? Because you haven't, in fact you excused it.

We have agreed that Israel has done some bad things. Tell us the bad horrible things done by the PLO and Hamas. Condemn the terrorism. Because anyone who doesn't- is a racist anti semitic.
I don't support firing missiles at Israeli's people's houses, like, at all. Hamas is shit. They do this to establish and maintain political legitimacy among Palestinians. That doesn't necessarily justify Israel's responses.
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Old 05-15-2019, 12:39 AM
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I don't support firing missiles at Israeli's people's houses, like, at all. Hamas is shit. They do this to establish and maintain political legitimacy among Palestinians. That doesn't necessarily justify Israel's responses.
Very close, but you did justify it a bit. Good try and thank you. But I like "Hamas is shit', on this we agree.

And I agree, sometimes Israel's responses are too much. But they are responses. No terrorist rockets, etc- no responses.
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Old 05-15-2019, 03:16 AM
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I don't see evidence of "misquoting".
Literally in my last post that revived this thread, I cited Congresswoman Liz Cheney as well as Fox News.
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Old 05-15-2019, 05:41 AM
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Of course my comments come off as "anti-semitic" -- because nobody in this country knows shit about the history of, well, pretty much anything but especially Israel. I don't think I've had anyone seriously challenge the historical accuracy of what I've posted in this thread; they just don't like the words I've used in phrasing it.



I don't care if I sound antisemitic - I am not, for whatever that's worth and to the extent that anyone here truly believes me (which I doubt). People have it in their minds that to criticize Israel, to criticize their support of their Jewish homeland is an attack on Jewry, but what I'm saying is that I find it peculiar. The two are separate. Israel and Jews are two separate matters. But for whatever reason they are not.
I've challenged your accuracy, IIRC, because earlier in the thread you said some bullshit history about the formation of Israel.

And you've said some bigoted bullshit as well (in earlier posts, not this one). You are not immune to bigotry just because current Israeli policy is and has been monstrous in many ways.
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  #533  
Old 05-15-2019, 06:52 AM
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I've challenged your accuracy, IIRC, because earlier in the thread you said some bullshit history about the formation of Israel.

And you've said some bigoted bullshit as well (in earlier posts, not this one). You are not immune to bigotry just because current Israeli policy is and has been monstrous in many ways.
I'm pretty sure I responded to those challenges, iiandiii. IIRC, I believe CarnalK questioned your characterization of my posts.

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...&postcount=415

What claims were "bullshit"? Just calling it bullshit isn't an argument or a refutation of the facts.

People are conditioned to respond to harsh criticism of Israel as though it's an attack on Jews in toto, and that is in part because we have been conditioned to feel guilt for what happened to European Jews. Don't get me wrong - we should feel guilt for what happened to European Jews. But that doesn't give Israel a pass to abuse other people, which they have, and it doesn't mean we should remain silent about it. Criticizing Israel, pointing out the complicated truth about Israel's formation as a country, and pointing out Israel's meddlesome politics and also the activism of American Zionists is not an attack Jews. It is no more an attack on Jews anymore than criticizing the Vatican is an attack on Catholics and Christians as a whole.

I go back to the reason this thread was created and apparently resurrected, which is that Muslim Americans seem particularly vulnerable to completely baseless charges of antisemitism whenever they attempt to present the non-Israeli point of view with regard to the Israel/Palestine conflict. It is so completely obvious that there is a bias here, and I'm tired of putting up with it. Last time I looked, we live in America, not Israel.

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  #534  
Old 05-15-2019, 06:56 AM
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I have several times, actually.

Ok, if you dont want to come off as anti-semitic, why dont you clearly and unreservedly condemn the terrorism used by Hamas? Because you haven't, in fact you excused it.

We have agreed that Israel has done some bad things. Tell us the bad horrible things done by the PLO and Hamas. Condemn the terrorism. Because anyone who doesn't- is a racist anti semitic.
You most certainly did not; you gave us the usual Fox News talking points, which I'm not interested in discussing. Do some credible research on your own and then we'll talk.
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Old 05-15-2019, 07:21 AM
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No, but he sponsored terrorism and used nerve gas on his own people.

Iran backs Hezbollah, Hamas, the Taliban and al-Qaeda, all known terrorist groups (Hezbollah not as much as the others).
Iran backs al-Qaeda and the Talibans????

Ok, maybe I'm not up to date, but Iran was the first country to actively fight the Talibans and provide support to the Afghan opposition when the USA, for instance, was all too happy to let Pakistan give them support. It was the only country concerned about them and doing something about them when everybody else was ignoring them (that is, until 9/11).

If Iran now supports the Talibans and Al Qaeda, then it's a 180 turn in their policies.
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  #536  
Old 05-15-2019, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by clairobscur View Post
Iran backs al-Qaeda and the Talibans????

Ok, maybe I'm not up to date, but Iran was the first country to actively fight the Talibans and provide support to the Afghan opposition when the USA, for instance, was all too happy to let Pakistan give them support. It was the only country concerned about them and doing something about them when everybody else was ignoring them (that is, until 9/11).

If Iran now supports the Talibans and Al Qaeda, then it's a 180 turn in their policies.
I somehow missed that one, but when someone posts that kind of Sean Hannity horse shit, it's pretty clear that it doesn't merit a response.

Also, since I have been called a "racist" multiple times on this thread, can someone please explain to me how criticizing Zionism makes me a "racist"? When did Zionists become a "race" of people?

Last edited by asahi; 05-15-2019 at 07:48 AM.
  #537  
Old 05-15-2019, 07:58 AM
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What claims were "bullshit"? Just calling it bullshit isn't an argument or a refutation of the facts.
This was bigoted bullshit:
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
Because Zionists always want the world to believe that Zionists are victims.
This was arrogant bullshit, in response to my calling out of your bigoted bullshit:
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
Only because you, like most Americans, are incredibly ignorant of what Israel has done, and what it continues to do in the name of establishing safety for Jews.
Here's some more arrogant bullshit:
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
Study some geography and history, mate.

We can come back and have this discussion again when ye do.
Here's some more bigoted bullshit (not the criticism of Netanyahu -- that's very reasonable, but the blanket bullshit about Zionism):
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
Honestly? I feel like puking knowing that Israel's population seems poised to re-elect a Zionist tyrant who proudly proclaims that Israel is a Jewish nation (only). This was Zionism's ultimate end, so it's hardly surprising. But of course we can't talk about reality without being labeled anti-Jewish. America's the land of free speech, unless one is speaking about Zionism.
This is partially ahistorical bullshit (there were indeed pro-Israeli atrocities during the establishment of the country, as well as anti-Jewish atrocities. This was a clash of two desperate people -- not colonists or the wealthy exploiting the weak and poor... it was Jews with literally nowhere on Earth to go safely going to the only place that they thought they had a chance to not be murdered. When desperate people clash, terrible things happen. That doesn't justify atrocities on either side, but this is just how humans behave when they're put in the kind of desperate circumstances that Jews were in the aftermath of the Holocaust. The ultimate blame goes to those who put the Jews in those circumstances. And the same goes for the Palestinians -- they were desperate people in their own desperate circumstances, with another group of the desperate trying to make homes alongside and sometimes in conflict with theirs):
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
"The Arabs didn't have to leave" -- that's like saying that Jews didn't have to leave Germany or Russia. Especially considering the tactics of Jewish terrorist militias participating in the Deir Yassin massacre. Jewish paramilitaries went from one Palestinian village after another, harassing them, murdering scores of families at the slightest provocation -- kinda like the Israeli military does today.
I'm not sure if this is arrogant or bigoted, but IMO it demonstrates a serious misunderstanding of the history of the Jews and the creation of Israel, for the same reasons as my previous criticism -- you don't acknowledge that the Jews after the Holocaust had literally zero safe options, and zero options that wouldn't be violently conflicted by others, and they made a choice to try and survive. That doesn't justify atrocities, but it also doesn't justify your implication that they had some other choice they could have possibly known about that would have resulted in less suffering:
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
All I ask is that, in return, people acknowledge that the planning of that state, where they chose to create it, and the political and military means by which they established it be taken into consideration as well, because they had real world consequences and created real-world victims.
This is ahistorical bullshit, which I called out at the time -- colonialism involves the powerful exploiting the powerless. Not the truly desperate in conflict with other desperate people:
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But it's a stretch to believe that Jews migrating to modern day Israel (Mandatory Palestine) didn't know that they were potentially setting themselves up for conflict with an entirely different group of people. It's one thing to migrate; it's another to migrate with the intent on setting up a new state government - some might call that colonialism.
You've made plenty of reasonable and nuanced critiques of the current Israeli government's policies that were not anti-semitic, not bigoted, and not bullshit, IMO. So you're clearly capable of being a nuanced critic of Israeli policy. But that doesn't excuse your bigoted bullshit and misstatement of history. The arrogant bullshit is just silly and not a huge deal, but it makes your arguments weaker.

IMO, you seem to have a serious problem with criticism. Which is extremely common, of course. It puts you in the same company of a lot of other posters who occasionally say bigoted or otherwise dumb things (like almost everyone) and then gets really defensive when it's called out. I've probably made the same sort of mistakes myself.

And of course you're not the only one who's posted bigoted and ahistorical posts in this thread. There have been just as many, if not more, ahistorical and bigoted posts about Palestinians. But that doesn't justify your bigoted and ahistorical posts.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 05-15-2019 at 08:00 AM.
  #538  
Old 05-15-2019, 08:02 AM
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No, Zionism is the desire of the Jewish people to have a permanent homeland preferably in their historical homeland of Jerusalem and the surrounding areas that made up Judea and Israel back during the second temple period. This desire is largely due to the fact that the Jewish people are regularly rounded up and killed or simply shot with assault rifles in their places of worship when living in other parts of the world.
Nice motivation. But you could also see Zionists as Europeans who felt that Palestine, like the rest of the world, was up for grab and that displacing a bunch of brown people so that they could replace them wasn't a problem at all. And Zionism as being originally entirely a colonial enterprise started with the blessings of a colonial power. Which isn't even contradictory with what you say.

Really wanting something doesn't allow you to take it. Having been victimized doesn't allow you to victimize others. I'm not sure how your explanations as to why Zionists wanted to create a Jewish state in Palestine justify Zionism or make Zionism looks good as you seem to think they do.
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  #539  
Old 05-15-2019, 08:07 AM
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This was bigoted bullshit:

This was arrogant bullshit, in response to my calling out of your bigoted bullshit:

Here's some more arrogant bullshit:

Here's some more bigoted bullshit (not the criticism of Netanyahu -- that's very reasonable, but the blanket bullshit about Zionism):

This is partially ahistorical bullshit (there were indeed pro-Israeli atrocities during the establishment of the country, as well as anti-Jewish atrocities. This was a clash of two desperate people -- not colonists or the wealthy exploiting the weak and poor... it was Jews with literally nowhere on Earth to go safely going to the only place that they thought they had a chance to not be murdered. When desperate people clash, terrible things happen. That doesn't justify atrocities on either side, but this is just how humans behave when they're put in the kind of desperate circumstances that Jews were in the aftermath of the Holocaust. The ultimate blame goes to those who put the Jews in those circumstances. And the same goes for the Palestinians -- they were desperate people in their own desperate circumstances, with another group of the desperate trying to make homes alongside and sometimes in conflict with theirs):

I'm not sure if this is arrogant or bigoted, but IMO it demonstrates a serious misunderstanding of the history of the Jews and the creation of Israel, for the same reasons as my previous criticism -- you don't acknowledge that the Jews after the Holocaust had literally zero safe options, and zero options that wouldn't be violently conflicted by others, and they made a choice to try and survive. That doesn't justify atrocities, but it also doesn't justify your implication that they had some other choice they could have possibly known about that would have resulted in less suffering:

This is ahistorical bullshit, which I called out at the time -- colonialism involves the powerful exploiting the powerless. Not the truly desperate in conflict with other desperate people:
Absolutely nothing in those posts is "ahistorical" or historically inaccurate. Not an iota. There might be some facts that I left out because I didn't have the time to write a research paper, but you or anyone else is free to contribute and add context, as you all have. You can re-litigate it if you so desire but we've already done this, and I don't have the time to do that with you right now. Maybe later in the day.

ETA: If you don't like the word "colonialism", we can try another, like "invading and occupying." If you want to change the semantics, be my guest. The words don't change the consequences, though.

Last edited by asahi; 05-15-2019 at 08:10 AM.
  #540  
Old 05-15-2019, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
Absolutely nothing in those posts is "ahistorical" or historically inaccurate. Not an iota. There might be some facts that I left out because I didn't have the time to write a research paper, but you or anyone else is free to contribute and add context, as you all have. You can re-litigate it if you so desire but we've already done this, and I don't have the time to do that with you right now. Maybe later in the day.

ETA: If you don't like the word "colonialism", we can try another, like "invading and occupying." If you want to change the semantics, be my guest. The words don't change the consequences, though.
It must be wonderful to never make mistakes about history. If only we could all be so brilliant and mistake-free as you! Thank you for deigning to share your incredible wisdom with us ignorant rubes, over and over again, and thank you for continually pointing out our inferiority. Such wisdom certainly goes a long way in building common understanding!
  #541  
Old 05-15-2019, 08:14 AM
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you don't acknowledge that the Jews after the Holocaust had literally zero safe options, and zero options that wouldn't be violently conflicted by others, and they made a choice to try and survive. That doesn't justify atrocities, but it also doesn't justify your implication that they had some other choice they could have possibly known about that would have resulted in less suffering:
That's over simplification. Jews didn't go to Palestine solely because they were totally desperate and had no other reasonably safe place to go. And in fact, Palestine wasn't even safe, as history would demonstrate in quick order. They went there, in not insignificant part, because they believed in Zionism. And similarly many European Jews, who had gone through the exact same events, elected not to go to Palestine, not just because they couldn't or because it was super safe where they were, but because they were antizionists (or at least didn't buy into the Zionist ideals).
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  #542  
Old 05-15-2019, 08:18 AM
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That's over simplification. Jews didn't go to Palestine solely because they were totally desperate and had no other reasonably safe place to go.
That desperation was the driver of Zionism -- Zionism had been growing for decades because of the continual oppression and pogroms against the Jews of Europe.

Quote:
And in fact, Palestine wasn't even safe, as history would demonstrate in quick order.
Of course it wasn't safe -- there were no options that they could have reasonably believed would be safe. The Jews had literally nowhere to go that they could have reasonably believed would have provided a safe home. So they (those that chose to go to the land that would become Israel) made a home.

Quote:
They went there, in not insignificant part, because they believed in Zionism. And similarly many European Jews, who had gone through the exact same events, elected not to go to Palestine, not just because they couldn't or because it was super safe where they were, but because they were antizionists (or at least didn't buy into the Zionist ideals).
My grandparents didn't escape Europe and go to Canada because they were anti-Zionists -- it was because that was the least-dangerous option by their judgment. Philosophy was much less a part of these decisions than pragmatism about survival, IMO and experience.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 05-15-2019 at 08:19 AM.
  #543  
Old 05-15-2019, 09:27 AM
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People are conditioned to respond to harsh criticism of Israel as though it's an attack on Jews in toto, and that is in part because we have been conditioned to feel guilt for what happened to European Jews.
No, attacks on Israel are thought of as attacks on Jews because Israel gets criticized for things that other countries get a pass for, and for doing such things in a much harsher manner than Israel has. And the only logical reason for that is anti-Semitism.

clairobscur:

Quote:
But you could also see Zionists as Europeans who felt that Palestine, like the rest of the world, was up for grab and that displacing a bunch of brown people so that they could replace them wasn't a problem at all.
Not if you have any knowledge of history you can't. Remind me, which set of residents of Mandatory Palestine accepted the UN partition plan, and which set rejected it? Which country gives full civil rights to non-members of the majority religion in their country? And seriously, "brown people"? Arabs as "brown people" has been a modern narrative, but skin-color-wise, Arabs are well within the "white" range and were certainly thought as such back in the early days of Zionism.
  #544  
Old 05-15-2019, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
That desperation was the driver of Zionism -- Zionism had been growing for decades because of the continual oppression and pogroms against the Jews of Europe.



Of course it wasn't safe -- there were no options that they could have reasonably believed would be safe. The Jews had literally nowhere to go that they could have reasonably believed would have provided a safe home. So they (those that chose to go to the land that would become Israel) made a home.



My grandparents didn't escape Europe and go to Canada because they were anti-Zionists -- it was because that was the least-dangerous option by their judgment. Philosophy was much less a part of these decisions than pragmatism about survival, IMO and experience.
You wrote the following :

Quote:
you don't acknowledge that the Jews after the Holocaust had literally zero safe options, and zero options that wouldn't be violently conflicted by others, and they made a choice to try and survive.
That makes appears that the only or at leat main motivation for Jews to emigrate to Palestine after WW2 was desperation and search for safety.

Your grandparents notwithstanding, you'll probably agree that there were people who had, before, during and after the war, strongly held ideological views, and that the subject of Zionism wasn't one that left politically active Jews indifferent. I'm not saying that most Jews decided what to do on the basis of their political views. But it definitely played a part in the decisions of part of them. Jewish survivors who wouldn't have moved to Palestine out of opposition to the Zionist ideals existed. The last survivor of the Warsaw ghetto insurrection was famously one of them (and he wasn't unique or exceptional in this regard).

But anyway, let's look at those who did decide to go to Palestine after the end of WW2 rather than those who didn't. You present them as desperate people in search of a safe haven. But immigrating to Palestine wasn't in any way easy during this period. It's not like you could just go to Palestine if you had failed to find another place to live. And as you agree, the situation there was explosive , and there's no way it could be deemed "safe". Certainly less so than Canada. People had to expect that they might need to pick up a gun and fight for the land. I can't believe that Zionist ideology wasn't a significant factor in making such a choice despite the difficulty and despite the risks for many of them.
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Last edited by clairobscur; 05-15-2019 at 10:39 AM.
  #545  
Old 05-15-2019, 10:44 AM
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You wrote the following :



That makes appears that the only or at leat main motivation for Jews to emigrate to Palestine after WW2 was desperation and search for safety.

Your grandparents notwithstanding, you'll probably agree that there were people who had, before, during and after the war, strongly held ideological views, and that the subject of Zionism wasn't one that left politically active Jews indifferent. I'm not saying that most Jews decided what to do on the basis of their political views. But it definitely played a part in the decisions of part of them. Jewish survivors who wouldn't have moved to Palestine out of opposition to the Zionist ideals existed. The last survivor of the Warsaw ghetto insurrection was famously one of them (and he wasn't unique or exceptional in this regard).

But anyway, let's look at those who did decide to go to Palestine after the end of WW2 rather than those who didn't. You present them as desperate people in search of a safe haven. But immigrating to Palestine wasn't in any way easy during this period. It's not like you could just go to Palestine if you had failed to find another place to live. And as you agree, the situation there was explosive , and there's no way it could be deemed "safe". Certainly less so than Canada. People had to expect that they might need to pick up a gun and fight for the land. I can't believe that Zionist ideology wasn't a significant factor in making such a choice despite the difficulty and despite the risks for many of them.
I'm not disagreeing with this, I'm saying that Zionism was driven by desperation and the need for a safe place for Jews, even if they had to create it with blood and sweat. There were no "easy" or "safe" options -- even going to Canada. Most had no reason to believe that Canada (or the US), which each had long histories of bigotry and brutality, would be welcoming and safe for them in the long term. So yes, Zionism was intimately tied to the creation of Israel, and that Zionism was largely driven by desperation and the lack of any reasonable safe places for Jews to live.
  #546  
Old 05-15-2019, 10:58 AM
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Not if you have any knowledge of history you can't. Remind me, which set of residents of Mandatory Palestine accepted the UN partition plan, and which set rejected it?
What does this has to do with what I said, namely the colonial nature of the original Zionist movement? What were people who weren't born in Palestine doing there at this time so that there even was a need for a partition plan? What do you call a situation where citizens of dominating powers move to settle in subjugated countries, if not colonialism?



Quote:
Which country gives full civil rights to non-members of the majority religion in their country?
What does this have to do with what I said?



Quote:
And seriously, "brown people"? Arabs as "brown people" has been a modern narrative, but skin-color-wise, Arabs are well within the "white" range and were certainly thought as such back in the early days of Zionism.
Ok, remove "brown" and make them Arabs. You think that the British government, Europeans in general, and European Jews in particular, had the utmost respect for Arabs at the beginning of the 20th century? If they had, how comes nobody asked (and respected) their opinion wrt whether or not European Jews should settle in Palestine? Who decided they could if not an European colonial power? Who benefited from this, if not Europeans? Who gave a shit about what these highly respected white Arabs were thinking?
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  #547  
Old 05-15-2019, 11:03 AM
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clairobscur:

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What does this has to do with what I said, namely the colonial nature of the original Zionist movement?
It has to do with this part of what you said:

Quote:
displacing a bunch of brown people so that they could replace them
They were not looking to displace and replace, but accepted the existence of another Arab state for the Palestinians, and granted (and continue to grant) full civil rights to the Arabs who have remained in the portion that would become theirs. That's neither displacement nor replacement.

Quote:
You think that the British government, Europeans in general, and European Jews in particular, had the utmost respect for Arabs at the beginning of the 20th century? If they had, how comes nobody asked (and respected) their opinion wrt whether or not European Jews should settle in Palestine?
Because at the time, Arabs didn't rule the land, Turks did. And after World War I, the Allies did. Why should European Jews/Zionists be looking for settlement opinions from those who had no administrative power to effect their goals?

Last edited by cmkeller; 05-15-2019 at 11:07 AM.
  #548  
Old 05-15-2019, 11:27 AM
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What do you call a situation where citizens of dominating powers move to settle in subjugated countries, if not colonialism?
Is there a term for people immigrating from outside an empire into an imperial province?

Very, very few of the Zionist immigrants were British citizens. Most were from Eastern and Central Europe, and had no more rights than the Palestinian Arabs, nor did they receive preferential treatment from the British - except when it served their purposes. But then, a Frenchman would know about how colonialists like to play one part of the population against another.

(Also, defining Mandatory Palestine as a "subjugated province" is not accurate. The British treated the locals as residents of a minor corner of an empire, just as they;d been treated for 200 years. If they were being subjugated, then so were 90% of the people in the world).

In short, if the Zionists were colonialists, what country were they colonizing for? Not Britain, because they weren't British. Certainly not Russia, Poland or Germany, who didn't give a shit about them. So what? You can't be a colonist without a home country.

In fact, the term you're looking for is "immigrants". The Zionists were immigrants into a country, and like any other immigrant, they had exactly the same right to the land as the natives.
  #549  
Old 05-15-2019, 12:09 PM
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In fact, the term you're looking for is "immigrants". The Zionists were immigrants into a country, and like any other immigrant, they had exactly the same right to the land as the natives.
Immigrants with designs on creating a new Zionist state. Hardly what I would call welcome immigrants, at least not in terms of keeping with local customs.
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Old 05-15-2019, 12:23 PM
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Immigrants with designs on creating a new Zionist state. Hardly what I would call welcome immigrants, at least not in terms of keeping with local customs.
Fair to assume you reserve equal scorn & contempt for other historic events of immigration and resulting native population displacement?
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