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  #551  
Old 05-15-2019, 12:30 PM
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Fair to assume you reserve equal scorn & contempt for other historic events of immigration and resulting native population displacement?
I do -- European migration to the Americas, for instance. There are probably other examples I could criticize just as vehemently as well. But I'd add, as I think I have pointed out before, I'm not de-legitimizing Israel's legitimacy as a nation-state, if that's what you're getting at. Nor am I oblivious to the tactics of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. I'm a lot more nuanced than what I'm given credit for on the whole.

My grievance, as it were, is in the lack of balance in discussing Israeli-Palestinian politics, which is almost always in favor of Israel and against Palestinians. I think this thread and the treatment of Congresswomen Omar and Tlaib have made that abundantly clear.
  #552  
Old 05-15-2019, 12:48 PM
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Immigrants with designs on creating a new Zionist state. Hardly what I would call welcome immigrants, at least not in terms of keeping with local customs.
That's right - immigrants should be humble! And grateful! And they should learn to speak the damn language!
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Old 05-15-2019, 12:51 PM
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I do -- European migration to the Americas, for instance. There are probably other examples I could criticize just as vehemently as well. But I'd add, as I think I have pointed out before, I'm not de-legitimizing Israel's legitimacy as a nation-state, if that's what you're getting at. Nor am I oblivious to the tactics of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. I'm a lot more nuanced than what I'm given credit for on the whole.
So on the whole, as a self-described student of history, you'd advocate that populations remain where they are for the most part and avoid migration at the risk of negatively impacting other/native populations, even at risk of their own extinction at times?

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My grievance, as it were, is in the lack of balance in discussing Israeli-Palestinian politics, which is almost always in favor of Israel and against Palestinians.
There are good reasons for that. Many of them outlined in the most recent posts by those providing modern historical context. And many of those, including mine, specifically comment on how Israel has not and does not always act in a just and fair way towards the Palestinian population living in the occupied territories. You have allies who share this criticism of Israel and are not shy about expressing it.

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I think this thread and the treatment of Congresswomen Omar and Tlaib have made that abundantly clear.
I too would like to give Omar and Tlaib the benefit of the doubt when they use insensitive language. You obviously feel unfairly judged as well for the language and tone you've used in this thread. Okay. Everyone makes mistakes. Sometimes people say things without having fully considered their words or the ideas they are trying to express. To that I can offer you and them the following: When you know better, be better.
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  #554  
Old 05-15-2019, 02:41 PM
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You most certainly did not; you gave us the usual Fox News talking points, which I'm not interested in discussing. Do some credible research on your own and then we'll talk.
I have, and I never listen to fox news.
  #555  
Old 05-15-2019, 02:50 PM
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Iran backs al-Qaeda and the Talibans????

Ok, maybe I'm not up to date, but Iran was the first country to actively fight the Talibans and provide support to the Afghan opposition when the USA, for instance, was all too happy to let Pakistan give them support. It was the only country concerned about them and doing something about them when everybody else was ignoring them (that is, until 9/11).

If Iran now supports the Talibans and Al Qaeda, then it's a 180 turn in their policies.


https://www.wsj.com/articles/iran-ba...rms-1434065528

https://jamestown.org/program/iran-r...n-afghanistan/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.f6807ee728f2

https://ctc.usma.edu/marriage-of-con...l-cooperation/

https://www.france24.com/en/20190410...-say-war-legal
  #556  
Old 05-16-2019, 06:22 AM
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Is there a term for people immigrating from outside an empire into an imperial province?

Very, very few of the Zionist immigrants were British citizens. Most were from Eastern and Central Europe,
That would be why I wrote "citizens from dominating powers" rather than "British citizen". The majority of the settlers in French Algeria were from southern Europe (Spain and Italy), not from France. Does that make it not a colonial entreprise?

If the USA occupies Canada and let Mexicans immigrate, that's fine and dandy and Canadians shouldn't have an issue with it?



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and had no more rights than the Palestinian Arabs, nor did they receive preferential treatment from the British - except when it served their purposes. But then, a Frenchman would know about how colonialists like to play one part of the population against another.
Wait? The British got to decide who could live and who would receive preferential treatment in a foreign country? Indeed, that's totally not colonialism.

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(Also, defining Mandatory Palestine as a "subjugated province" is not accurate. The British treated the locals as residents of a minor corner of an empire, just as they;d been treated for 200 years. If they were being subjugated, then so were 90% of the people in the world).
Not 90%, but a good chunk of the planet, at the time. Were they self-governing? Did they get to decide which policies to implement, for instance in this case wrt immigration? No? Then how can you assert that they weren't subjugated? Of course they were. What is your definition of "subjugated"?

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In short, if the Zionists were colonialists, what country were they colonizing for? Not Britain, because they weren't British. Certainly not Russia, Poland or Germany, who didn't give a shit about them. So what? You can't be a colonist without a home country.
They were Europeans who thought it was perfectly fine and dandy to move to a remote place controled by an European power, and that the opinion of the locals on this matter was of exactly zero relevance. Like pretty much all other Europeans at the time. I don't see why many of them not being British change a thing.

And regarding the idea that this wasn't serving the interests of the United Kingdom, do you think that the Balfour declaration, for instance, was a completely random decision? That it wasn't made for a specific political reason, that was assumed to serve the interests of Britain? And wasn't it made without regard for the opinion of the locals? They definitely made a "gift", with the expectation that it would prove useful for the UK, at the expense of a population that would be soon under their control as a colonial power. Creating a Jewish state in colonized Africa was envisioned too. But creating one in the Midlands was notably never proposed.



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In fact, the term you're looking for is "immigrants". The Zionists were immigrants into a country, and like any other immigrant, they had exactly the same right to the land as the natives.
Who decided they should be allowed to immigrate? Not the colonial power that had put itself in charge of the area? Why did they think that it was perfectly normal to move to an area where they knew they were unwelcome, because the colonial power in charge could impose it against the will of the population? You think that European Jews were exempt from the colonialist mentality, from the contempt Europeans had for the indigenous populations , and from the disregard for their interests and aspirations?

What makes the Polish Jew moving to Palestine with the blessing of the UK different from the Spaniard moving to Algeria with the blessing of France, exactly?
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  #557  
Old 05-16-2019, 06:24 AM
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I'm amazed.
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  #558  
Old 05-16-2019, 06:34 AM
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They were not looking to displace and replace, but accepted the existence of another Arab state for the Palestinians, and granted (and continue to grant) full civil rights to the Arabs who have remained in the portion that would become theirs. That's neither displacement nor replacement.
Let's be clear : if your country is occupied, and the occupying power, with a complete disregard for the opinion of your fellow countrymen on the matter, decides to let some millions of Chinese people immigrate, Chinese who subsequently generously agree to share the country with you, you wouldn't have any issue with it?

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Because at the time, Arabs didn't rule the land, Turks did. And after World War I, the Allies did. Why should European Jews/Zionists be looking for settlement opinions from those who had no administrative power to effect their goals?
So, a colonial power ruled the land, this colonial power decided to let them immigrate because it furthered its own interests, without regard for the opinion of the local population , but that totally wasn't a colonial enterprise.
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  #559  
Old 05-16-2019, 06:45 AM
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Colonialism is about power and exploitation. The Jews creating Israel was about survival. Those are not comparable. It doesn't excuse everything that was done during its formation, but people moving in order to survive is fundamentally different than powerful state sponsored migration for wealth and power.
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  #560  
Old 05-16-2019, 08:09 AM
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What makes the Polish Jew moving to Palestine with the blessing of the UK different from the Spaniard moving to Algeria with the blessing of France, exactly?
And yet, here we are, continuing to scrutinize and vilify the motives of the Polish Jew.
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  #561  
Old 05-16-2019, 08:37 AM
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Who decided they should be allowed to immigrate?
The international community of nations (UN). In the post war years 1945-1960, dozens of new nations were formed due to de-colonization, mostly in Asia and Africa. But Israel is the one that's most often found at the sharp end of people's tongues. Why is that?

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Not the colonial power that had put itself in charge of the area?
Yes, they played a large role. Already established. Why keep harping on the point?

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Why did they think that it was perfectly normal to move to an area where they knew they were unwelcome, because the colonial power in charge could impose it against the will of the population?
The survivors had lost everything and everyone. Many did not have homes or even villages and towns to return to. Some were afraid to return to a place where they were turned in by their neighbors. Some, understandably, wanted a new start far away from the tragedy they barely survived.

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You think that European Jews were exempt from the colonialist mentality, from the contempt Europeans had for the indigenous populations , and from the disregard for their interests and aspirations?
Some had that in mind, not all, specifically those few migrating prior to the rise of fascism. But in the aftermath, survival was their primary motive, not colonization and contempt for indigenous people of Palestine. Most just wanted a safe place to live in peace and a chance to restart and rebuild their lives.
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  #562  
Old 05-16-2019, 08:44 AM
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The international community of nations (UN). In the post war years 1945-1960, dozens of new nations were formed due to de-colonization, mostly in Asia and Africa. But Israel is the one that's most often found at the sharp end of people's tongues. Why is that?
The answer's quite obvious: it's the most visible conflict in a politically and economically important part of the world.

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Some had that in mind, not all, specifically those few migrating prior to the rise of fascism. But in the aftermath, survival was their primary motive, not colonization and contempt for indigenous people of Palestine. Most just wanted a safe place to live in peace and a chance to restart and rebuild their lives.
I don't discount that a great many of those who fled Europe to modern-day Israel did so in no small part because of the persecutions against them. But as you say, there were some who, all along, had the vision of creating a Jewish nation-state. It takes a lot for "immigration" to become a nation. It takes people. It takes political energy. Doesn't it?
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Old 05-16-2019, 08:45 AM
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And yet, here we are, continuing to scrutinize and vilify the motives of the Polish Jew.
Of course we are, because it's a thread about anti-semitism. If you want to start a thread about North Africa and Southern Europe, start one.
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Old 05-16-2019, 08:51 AM
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Of course we are, because it's a thread about anti-semitism. If you want to start a thread about North Africa and Southern Europe, start one.
I meant that it's the conversation most often had in the context of "colonialism". And I think you know that.
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  #565  
Old 05-16-2019, 08:56 AM
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But as you say, there were some who, all along, had the vision of creating a Jewish nation-state. It takes a lot for "immigration" to become a nation. It takes people. It takes political energy. Doesn't it?
It does. No-one has denied that. I've asked this question of you before but I will ask it again more succinctly... Are you opposed to all migrations of populations throughout history, regardless of cause/justification?
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  #566  
Old 05-16-2019, 08:58 AM
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Colonialism is about power and exploitation. The Jews creating Israel was about survival. Those are not comparable. It doesn't excuse everything that was done during its formation, but people moving in order to survive is fundamentally different than powerful state sponsored migration for wealth and power.
Well what about now? Is Israel claiming sovereignty over seized property for the purposes of survival, or is it something else? A lot of countries can do a lot of awful things in the name of national security - I won't single Israel out here, considering we've been a pretty habitual offender as of late. But I don't buy that Israel or that Zionists have behaved strictly out of fear for their own survival. And as claro pointed out earlier, they pretty soon realized that they weren't "safe" in Palestine either.

I understand that the history of Israel is complicated, and yes, I admit, I have said some harsh things that could have been phrased more delicately. But one problem that I see is that people always feel this pressure to tiptoe around Israel and the political activism that inspired it, and as I linked to already, there are activists now who want to punish American citizens for their counter-activism against Israel, which is total bullshit. So I sometimes speak harshly out of concern that by tiptoeing around these issues we encourage Israeli activists to continue hijacking foreign policy in the name of "keeping Israel safe". FFS, Israel is a dominant military and technological power. They don't need America to keep them safe anymore.
  #567  
Old 05-16-2019, 09:08 AM
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It does. No-one has denied that. I've asked this question of you before but I will ask it again more succinctly... Are you opposed to all migrations of populations throughout history, regardless of cause/justification?
I believe I addressed your question at the start of post #551. I am not opposed to migration per se; I am saying that migration has consequences. I don't think I've ever suggested that Jews couldn't migrate into Palestine, nor have I said that Israel is an illegitimate state. I have pointed out that their migration and that coming over with the idea of establishing a Jewish state in a place that is predominately Muslim, and to a lesser extent Christian, is inevitably going to lead to tensions, which it did. This is common sense, really.
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Old 05-16-2019, 09:10 AM
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Well what about now? Is Israel claiming sovereignty over seized property for the purposes of survival, or is it something else? A lot of countries can do a lot of awful things in the name of national security - I won't single Israel out here, considering we've been a pretty habitual offender as of late. But I don't buy that Israel or that Zionists have behaved strictly out of fear for their own survival. And as claro pointed out earlier, they pretty soon realized that they weren't "safe" in Palestine either.
No they were not. Are you suggesting they had better options and simply chose poorely?

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I understand that the history of Israel is complicated, and yes, I admit, I have said some harsh things that could have been phrased more delicately. But one problem that I see is that people always feel this pressure to tiptoe around Israel and the political activism that inspired it, and as I linked to already, there are activists now who want to punish American citizens for their counter-activism against Israel, which is total bullshit. So I sometimes speak harshly out of concern that by tiptoeing around these issues we encourage Israeli activists to continue hijacking foreign policy in the name of "keeping Israel safe". FFS, Israel is a dominant military and technological power. They don't need America to keep them safe anymore.
Did these activists get their way? No they did not. And rightly so. Israel is a dominant military and technological power precisely because of their mutually beneficial friendship with America. Are you saying America is not getting anything out of this bi-lateral relationship?
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  #569  
Old 05-16-2019, 09:16 AM
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I believe I addressed your question at the start of post #551. I am not opposed to migration per se; I am saying that migration has consequences. I don't think I've ever suggested that Jews couldn't migrate into Palestine, nor have I said that Israel is an illegitimate state. I have pointed out that their migration and that coming over with the idea of establishing a Jewish state in a place that is predominately Muslim, and to a lesser extent Christian, is inevitably going to lead to tensions, which it did. This is common sense, really.
I'm sorry, but this isn't at all insightful or revelatory in the way that perhaps you intend it to be.
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  #570  
Old 05-16-2019, 09:25 AM
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I'm sorry, but this isn't at all insightful or revelatory in the way that perhaps you intend it to be.
You're right, not insightful at all, as common sense is common sense.
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Old 05-16-2019, 09:27 AM
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  #572  
Old 05-16-2019, 11:38 AM
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And yet, here we are, continuing to scrutinize and vilify the motives of the Polish Jew.
The post that best summarizes my position in the thread.
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  #573  
Old 05-16-2019, 12:46 PM
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I'm amazed.
The enemy of my enemy......
  #574  
Old 05-16-2019, 01:58 PM
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The enemy of my enemy......
It's also worth pointing out that the US supported the Mujahideen and negotiated business with the Taliban (we're still negotiating with the Taliban, in fact). Suffice it to say, we have pragmatic relationships with evil doers from time to time. Does that make the United States terrorists, too?

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  #575  
Old 05-16-2019, 02:35 PM
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I missed this.

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No they were not. Are you suggesting they had better options and simply chose poorely?
Already addressed it.

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Did these activists get their way? No they did not. And rightly so. Israel is a dominant military and technological power precisely because of their mutually beneficial friendship with America. Are you saying America is not getting anything out of this bi-lateral relationship?
Wrong, 27 states have already signed some laws prohibiting businesses and individuals that take money from the states (presumably business contractors) to engage in anti-Israel boycotts. There have been various versions of these bills introduced into congress. In fact it was included in the very first bill proposed in the Senate this year -- at a time when hundreds of thousands of workers were not even receiving paychecks, it was more important to discuss why we should punish American citizens who participate in anti-Israel boycotts. Again, why is Israel that important? Or is it antisemitic to ask that question?

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  #576  
Old 05-16-2019, 04:10 PM
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It's also worth pointing out that the US supported the Mujahideen and negotiated business with the Taliban (we're still negotiating with the Taliban, in fact). Suffice it to say, we have pragmatic relationships with evil doers from time to time. Does that make the United States terrorists, too?
No, but what does that have to do with my point? Are you now supporting Iran as well as Palestine and the PLO?

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  #577  
Old 05-16-2019, 04:17 PM
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Wrong, 27 states have already signed some laws prohibiting businesses and individuals that take money from the states (presumably business contractors) to engage in anti-Israel boycotts. There have been various versions of these bills introduced into congress. In fact it was included in the very first bill proposed in the Senate this year -- at a time when hundreds of thousands of workers were not even receiving paychecks, it was more important to discuss why we should punish American citizens who participate in anti-Israel boycotts. Again, why is Israel that important? Or is it antisemitic to ask that question?
The answer to this is: We choose our friends over our enemies. Probably not very satisfying to you but, as you say, "common sense".

It's not anti-semitic to ask the question.
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  #578  
Old 05-16-2019, 04:27 PM
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The answer to this is: We choose our friends over our enemies. Probably not very satisfying to you but, as you say, "common sense".

It's not anti-semitic to ask the question.
Why do you take the position that people who do not unequivocally support Israel are enemies?
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Old 05-16-2019, 04:54 PM
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Why do you take the position that people who do not unequivocally support Israel are enemies?
That's fair. Poor choice of words on my part. Not all who disagree with us are our enemies.

We tend to support our friends & allies. Even when they are sometimes wrong.
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  #580  
Old 05-16-2019, 06:02 PM
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That's fair. Poor choice of words on my part. Not all who disagree with us are our enemies.
I doubt it was unintentional, though. That's what I've been seeing from Zionists for years and years and years -- smearing people for attacking Israel, attacking people who legitimately criticize Israel, Zionism, Zionist politics as "enemies". You're no different. You've been doing the same thing. I'm not letting you get away with this. I am not the enemy. I am not the one who wants to put AMERICANS in JAIL for BOYCOTTING A FOREIGN COUNTRY BECAUSE THEY DISAGREE WITH THEIR POLITICS!!!!!!

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  #581  
Old 05-16-2019, 06:06 PM
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Why do you take the position that people who do not unequivocally support Israel are enemies?
It wasn't an accident. This is what Zionists do, and now we have the evidence.
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Old 05-16-2019, 07:18 PM
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I doubt it was unintentional, though. That's what I've been seeing from Zionists for years and years and years -- smearing people for attacking Israel, attacking people who legitimately criticize Israel, Zionism, Zionist politics as "enemies". You're no different. You've been doing the same thing. I'm not letting you get away with this. I am not the enemy. I am not the one who wants to put AMERICANS in JAIL for BOYCOTTING A FOREIGN COUNTRY BECAUSE THEY DISAGREE WITH THEIR POLITICS!!!!!!
I'm not interested in putting anyone in jail for political disagreements. I prefer they remain free to exercise their first amendment rights, to stand on public street corners screaming insane gibberish at passers by.

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It wasn't an accident. This is what Zionists do, and now we have the evidence.
He's on to us, comrades! The jig is up! Everybody, back to the spaceship. Next stop, planet Zion.
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Old 05-16-2019, 07:30 PM
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So are the laws that punish freedom of expression about keeping Jews safe? Are they about survival? Should protection of the Jew mean the loss of freedom for the American? Funny, I don't remember sending a tax return to Israel. I've never had an Israeli passport or birth certificate. But asking these questions makes me a Jew hater, right? If Saudi Arabia hijacks American foreign policy, which they do, I can't criticize Saudi Arabia without hating Islam, is that it?

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  #584  
Old 05-16-2019, 08:11 PM
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So are the laws that punish freedom of expression about keeping Jews safe? Are they about survival? Should protection of the Jew mean the loss of freedom for the American?
Yes. Particularly applicable to those who shoot up a synagogue.

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Funny, I don't remember sending a tax return to Israel.
Oh, don't worry. You have. About $30B+ most recently.

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I've never had an Israeli passport or birth certificate.
Must have been lost in the mail.

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But asking these questions makes me a Jew hater, right?
If Saudi Arabia hijacks American foreign policy, which they do, I can't criticize Saudi Arabia without hating Islam, is that it?
You have every right to hate whomever you want. You don't need my permission.
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  #585  
Old 05-16-2019, 09:04 PM
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Yes. Particularly applicable to those who shoot up a synagogue.
What the hell does anything I've said have to do with synagogue shootings? You're just being ridiculous now, unable to refute anything I've said and instead resort to shouting "JEW HATER! JEW HATER! JEW HATER!

Good grief.
  #586  
Old 05-16-2019, 10:08 PM
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Let's be clear : if your country is occupied, and the occupying power, with a complete disregard for the opinion of your fellow countrymen on the matter, decides to let some millions of Chinese people immigrate, Chinese who subsequently generously agree to share the country with you, you wouldn't have any issue with it?
If it was "my" country, I might have a right to have an issue with it, though of course if the government didn't agree with me, I'd be SOL in my wishes.

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So, a colonial power ruled the land, this colonial power decided to let them immigrate because it furthered its own interests, without regard for the opinion of the local population , but that totally wasn't a colonial enterprise.
I never said it wasn't a colonial enterprise. But that was the order of the day back then. The idea of native self-government as a universal ideal is a new one on the world scene. World history is full of empires and conquests, displacements and annexations. The winners controlled the land and doled it out to whomever they wished. Israel is hardly the only modern country created in this way. Why just next door, the British set up a Saudi prince as absolute monarch of his own newly-minted country full of natives who were never consulted about who would rule over them.

But there's no reasonable way, nor is there any international will, to somehow rewind the clock of history until we can somehow tie every clan since Cro-Magnon wanderings to the virgin territory it was the first to occupy. That way lies madness. For every country, there is the understanding that the local sovereignty begins where the most recent imperial or colonial sovereignty from the times that borders were considered re-writable and conquest was considered acceptable ended. To single out Israel as the one exception to this rule, the one country whose existence is problematic because its presence was allowed by the most recent imperial/colonial power rather than by consultation of natives with no say over their political futures is not a valid line of reasoning.
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Old 05-16-2019, 10:11 PM
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Well what about now? Is Israel claiming sovereignty over seized property for the purposes of survival, or is it something else? A lot of countries can do a lot of awful things in the name of national security - I won't single Israel out here, considering we've been a pretty habitual offender as of late. But I don't buy that Israel or that Zionists have behaved strictly out of fear for their own survival. And as claro pointed out earlier, they pretty soon realized that they weren't "safe" in Palestine either.



I understand that the history of Israel is complicated, and yes, I admit, I have said some harsh things that could have been phrased more delicately. But one problem that I see is that people always feel this pressure to tiptoe around Israel and the political activism that inspired it, and as I linked to already, there are activists now who want to punish American citizens for their counter-activism against Israel, which is total bullshit. So I sometimes speak harshly out of concern that by tiptoeing around these issues we encourage Israeli activists to continue hijacking foreign policy in the name of "keeping Israel safe". FFS, Israel is a dominant military and technological power. They don't need America to keep them safe anymore.
Now is different, and I have no issue with this reasonable criticism (aside from the pointless shot at Zionism).
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Old 05-17-2019, 02:21 AM
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That's fair. Poor choice of words on my part. Not all who disagree with us are our enemies.

We tend to support our friends & allies. Even when they are sometimes wrong.
How about "We tend to support another country over our own citizens."? Because that's what punishing Americans who criticize Israel's government and exercise their right to not do business with them is.

A baker can boycott a gay couple, but not an Israeli one.
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Old 05-17-2019, 02:23 AM
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It wasn't an accident. This is what Zionists do, and now we have the evidence.
Just, wow.
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Old 05-17-2019, 06:13 AM
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Just, wow.
Just wow nothing. What QuickSilver wrote was exactly the reason this thread exists in the first place, because it's why we've had the "controversies" surrounding what Reps Omar and Tlaib said. People who criticize Israel and Zionism are immediately suspected of harboring deep anti-Jewish sentiment. People need to stop putting up with this crap.

I walk by synagogues from time to time, just like I walk by churches and mosques. I don't think "OMG, the Jews!" I really don't care. I'm fine with people being religious and praying or doing whatever it is they do in their houses of worship and in their communities. But when religious people (of any stripe) become politically active, I'm going to have opinions about it, whether we're talking about Zionists trying to silence critics of Israel or Christians trying to shove their "family values" down our throats.
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Old 05-17-2019, 06:24 AM
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Colonialism is about power and exploitation. The Jews creating Israel was about survival. Those are not comparable. It doesn't excuse everything that was done during its formation, but people moving in order to survive is fundamentally different than powerful state sponsored migration for wealth and power.
And a powerful state didn't sponsor migration for, if not wealth, power? The UK wasn't motivated by its own self-interest? You can't point only at one aspect of the issue (desperate Jews) and completely ignore the other (a colonial power imposing immigration on a subjugated population because it was expected to serve UK interests).

Ignoring it, on top of hiding under the carpet a significant element of the issue (Zionism being implemented thanks to colonial domination), allows to ignore the other side of the dispute : the locals who had every reason to feel wronged.


As I already wrote (besides the fact that survival *wasn't* guaranteed by the creation of a Jewish state in palestine, which wasn't by far the safest option, as I already pointed out), this survival could have been ensured by creating an independant Jewish state in Wales and Jews and Welsh sharing the land. For some reason that escapes me, the UK didn't consider this option. While it considered African colonies and mandate Palestine as valid ones. Why would that be?
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Old 05-17-2019, 06:28 AM
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And a powerful state didn't sponsor migration for, if not wealth, power? The UK wasn't motivated by its own self-interest? You can't point only at one aspect of the issue (desperate Jews) and completely ignore the other (a colonial power imposing immigration on a subjugated population because it was expected to serve UK interests).



Ignoring it, on top of hiding under the carpet a significant element of the issue (Zionism being implemented thanks to colonial domination), allows to ignore the other side of the dispute : the locals who had every reason to feel wronged.





As I already wrote (besides the fact that survival *wasn't* guaranteed by the creation of a Jewish state in palestine, which wasn't by far the safest option, as I already pointed out), this survival could have been ensured by creating an independant Jewish state in Wales and Jews and Welsh sharing the land. For some reason that escapes me, the UK didn't consider this option. While it considered African colonies and mandate Palestine as valid ones. Why would that be?
Criticize the UK all you want. I have no issue with criticism of the UK. But that doesn't make desperate Jews colonists, or their efforts to carve out a home colonialism.
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  #593  
Old 05-17-2019, 07:07 AM
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The international community of nations (UN).
No it didn't. When the UN was involved, immigration had already taken place and it was a done deal.

Besides, even if the UN had somehow allowed immigration in Palestine, it wouldn't make it right. If your wealthiest neighbors gathered and decided that you'll share your house with Syrian refugees even though they know that you don't want to, you probably wouldn't find it right.


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In the post war years 1945-1960, dozens of new nations were formed due to de-colonization, mostly in Asia and Africa. But Israel is the one that's most often found at the sharp end of people's tongues. Why is that?
Could it be because most of these nations nations weren't formed to become the homeland of immigrants against the will of the local population?

Could it be also because Israel is discussed in the news every other day? If Sri Lanka was making the headlines on a regular basis and Israel almost never, we'd probably talk a lot more about Tamils and a lot less about Jews. Could it be also because people start threads related to Israel, and then wonder why Isreal history is discussed only when someone is critical of this history?


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Yes, they played a large role. Already established. Why keep harping on the point?
Because it's a very significant point. A colonial power has imposed the migration of European settlers against the will of the local population. If they hadn't been Jews, I'm pretty sure that pretty much nobody on this board would argue in support of this action, and pretty much everybody would agree that Palestinians have been seriously wronged in this instance. But instead, most people in this thread are trying to find any possible argument to whitewash what happened and make it appears as perfectly justified.


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The survivors had lost everything and everyone. Many did not have homes or even villages and towns to return to. Some were afraid to return to a place where they were turned in by their neighbors. Some, understandably, wanted a new start far away from the tragedy they barely survived.
First, immigration didn't start after WWII, so you can't use the Shoah (which is what I assume you mean with "lost everything and everyone") as a post ex facto justification. Second, as I already pointed out, even after WWII, emigrating to Palestine was neither a simple nor a safe move. Palestine was by then already a pressure cooker that pretty much everybody expected to explode. Jews moving to Canada did what you say. Jews moving to Palestine knew that they would likely have to fight Palestinians for the land. It makes a difference. They put their own self-interest over that of the locals, and were willing to fight them to further these interests, which you could argue is an usual human behavior (although, again, Jews *opposed* to moving to Palestine on ideological grounds weren't rare), but it doesn't make it right and laudable.

Once again, if desperate Syrian refugees settled in your house, would you be happy with it? What if your supposedly well meaning neighbor had forced you at gunpoint to take them in?


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Some had that in mind, not all, specifically those few migrating prior to the rise of fascism. But in the aftermath, survival was their primary motive, not colonization and contempt for indigenous people of Palestine. Most just wanted a safe place to live in peace and a chance to restart and rebuild their lives.
You're free to think that I guess. Do you assume that European Jews were somehow free of prejudice wrt Arabs? Do you think that people who established Israel just had immediate survival in their mind? In other words, do you think that these people weren't Zionists, but just random refugees?

A question : do you think that early immigrants to Palestine are typically presented as helpless victims who had no other choice (as you think they were) in Israel's national legend/ historical narrative?
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  #594  
Old 05-17-2019, 08:14 AM
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And yet, here we are, continuing to scrutinize and vilify the motives of the Polish Jew.
Because being a Polish Jew makes you exempt of any human flaw or is a "get out of scrutinization free" card?

I think you believe the later and as a result can't accept claims of Arabs having been victimized because it would imply that "Polish Jews" might have been victimizers, which doesn't fit in your worldview. So, you will fight tooth and nail to promote the idea that an European moving to a subjugated Arab nation because he feels that he deserves the land more than the locals do is on the good and moral side.

An idea that, once again, you'd dismiss immediately and without any "scrutinization" whatsoever if it was applied to a Spanish catholic or whoever.
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  #595  
Old 05-17-2019, 08:22 AM
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What the hell does anything I've said have to do with synagogue shootings? You're just being ridiculous now, unable to refute anything I've said and instead resort to shouting "JEW HATER! JEW HATER! JEW HATER!

Good grief.
Enough. I've stopped taking you seriously multiple posts ago. I thought that was self evident.
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  #596  
Old 05-17-2019, 09:28 AM
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clairobscur :

I never said it wasn't a colonial enterprise. But that was the order of the day back then. The idea of native self-government as a universal ideal is a new one on the world scene. World history is full of empires and conquests, displacements and annexations. The winners controlled the land and doled it out to whomever they wished. Israel is hardly the only modern country created in this way. Why just next door, the British set up a Saudi prince as absolute monarch of his own newly-minted country full of natives who were never consulted about who would rule over them.
Fine, I'm not going to dispute that. What I have an issue with is the constant whitewashing of Israel's history, as if it was uniquely exempt of all criticism on this basis.

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But there's no reasonable way, nor is there any international will, to somehow rewind the clock of history until we can somehow tie every clan since Cro-Magnon wanderings to the virgin territory it was the first to occupy.
Did I suggest to rewind anything?


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To single out Israel as the one exception to this rule, the one country whose existence is problematic because its presence was allowed by the most recent imperial/colonial power rather than by consultation of natives with no say over their political futures is not a valid line of reasoning.
And I didn't follow this reasoning. I simply asserted that Israel isn't a pure lamb born from a virgin, a concept that a lot of people have an issue with. Some (both on the conservative and progressive side) because they've brainwashed themselves into reflexively rejecting any statement critical of Israel (or of Jews, Isreal being seen as an extension), and others (on the Isreali side) for tactical reasons, because admiting that the Arabs have been wronged and that there's an original sin in the history of Israel is tantamount to admit that Palestinians might have a point, and aren't just bloodthirsty simpletons who never had any good reason to complain about anything, which they'd rather have everybody believe.
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  #597  
Old 05-17-2019, 10:16 AM
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No it didn't. When the UN was involved, immigration had already taken place and it was a done deal.

Besides, even if the UN had somehow allowed immigration in Palestine, it wouldn't make it right. If your wealthiest neighbors gathered and decided that you'll share your house with Syrian refugees even though they know that you don't want to, you probably wouldn't find it right.
Nobody has disputed this. It started well before WWII and it increased dramatically post WWII.

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Could it be because most of these nations nations weren't formed to become the homeland of immigrants against the will of the local population?
Israel is the most recent such example, but hardly unique in history.

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Could it be also because Israel is discussed in the news every other day? If Sri Lanka was making the headlines on a regular basis and Israel almost never, we'd probably talk a lot more about Tamils and a lot less about Jews. Could it be also because people start threads related to Israel, and then wonder why Isreal history is discussed only when someone is critical of this history?
It's fair to criticize Israel on multiple fronts. It not fair to perpetuate a one sided view of that history.

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Because it's a very significant point. A colonial power has imposed the migration of European settlers against the will of the local population. If they hadn't been Jews, I'm pretty sure that pretty much nobody on this board would argue in support of this action, and pretty much everybody would agree that Palestinians have been seriously wronged in this instance. But instead, most people in this thread are trying to find any possible argument to whitewash what happened and make it appears as perfectly justified.
Without a doubt, Palestinians got the short end of the stick in a deal which was imposed on them by their colonial rulers. I suppose that grievance must extend back to their Ottoman rulers as well as forward to their Israeli rulers. They are justified in their grievances.

So what are we talking about if we want to address those grievances? Dismantling of the state of Israel? Reparations? I know! How about a two state solution?


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First, immigration didn't start after WWII, so you can't use the Shoah (which is what I assume you mean with "lost everything and everyone") as a post ex facto justification. Second, as I already pointed out, even after WWII, emigrating to Palestine was neither a simple nor a safe move. Palestine was by then already a pressure cooker that pretty much everybody expected to explode. Jews moving to Canada did what you say. Jews moving to Palestine knew that they would likely have to fight Palestinians for the land. It makes a difference. They put their own self-interest over that of the locals, and were willing to fight them to further these interests, which you could argue is an usual human behavior (although, again, Jews *opposed* to moving to Palestine on ideological grounds weren't rare), but it doesn't make it right and laudable.
It makes it human. No different than any other migratory event in history. No more, no less.

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Once again, if desperate Syrian refugees settled in your house, would you be happy with it? What if your supposedly well meaning neighbor had forced you at gunpoint to take them in?
Wrong analogy. Your colonialist landlord is the one forcing you to share your home with a new family.

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Originally Posted by clairobscur View Post
You're free to think that I guess. Do you assume that European Jews were somehow free of prejudice wrt Arabs? Do you think that people who established Israel just had immediate survival in their mind? In other words, do you think that these people weren't Zionists, but just random refugees?

A question : do you think that early immigrants to Palestine are typically presented as helpless victims who had no other choice (as you think they were) in Israel's national legend/ historical narrative?
Zionism predates WWII. Early immigrants, prior to the formal formation of the state of Israel, moved there in part for religious reasons and in part because of the persistent anti-semitic European history. Zionism, seems to me, was largely based on a premise that if Jews had their own homeland, they would at least be safe there. Also, generational religious teachings and texts lead them to believe Israel (Palestine) was their god granted homeland. Many, not just Jews, believe it to this day. History does not dispute this.

It's not as simple as Jews capriciously deciding one day that moving to some dusty rocks in the Middle East might be a nice place to settle down. The fact that there was already an indigenous population living there (some of whom were Jews as well) is not in dispute. The fact that colonialism and tragic circumstances of that time combined and resulted in the migration of Jews and the formation of the State of Israel is also not in dispute.

I've not seem much disagreement from anyone on the above. What I find disingenuous in these discussions, which happen frequently enough, is the criticism and accusatory finger pointing without perspective and the vitriolic accusations of "AIPAC rubber stampers", "Zionists", and "Holocaust shaming/guilting". Hard to view that as anything other than anti-semitic stereotyping, whether it's intentional or not.
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  #598  
Old 05-17-2019, 10:25 AM
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Because being a Polish Jew makes you exempt of any human flaw or is a "get out of scrutinization free" card?
Let's agree to keep your words out of my mouth, 'k?

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Originally Posted by clairobscur View Post
I think you believe the later and as a result can't accept claims of Arabs having been victimized because it would imply that "Polish Jews" might have been victimizers, which doesn't fit in your worldview. So, you will fight tooth and nail to promote the idea that an European moving to a subjugated Arab nation because he feels that he deserves the land more than the locals do is on the good and moral side.

An idea that, once again, you'd dismiss immediately and without any "scrutinization" whatsoever if it was applied to a Spanish catholic or whoever.
I dismiss none of the above. I specifically state that there is nothing special or unusual about the circumstances under which this has occurred throughout human history.

Does one excuse the other? No. So what are you prepared to do or suggest be done about this injustice, other than offering your high moral ground critique?
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  #599  
Old 05-17-2019, 10:44 AM
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Criticize the UK all you want. I have no issue with criticism of the UK. But that doesn't make desperate Jews colonists, or their efforts to carve out a home colonialism.
Of course you don't have an issue with me criticizing the UK. You never have an issue with putting blame on a group or on members of a group that you have categorized as oppressors. What you have consistently an issue with is putting the blame for anything, criticizing in any way, or disputing the claims for any reason of a group that you have categorized as oppressed.

The problem arises when you have two oppressed groups, with competing claims, at which point you play favorite, and deny that the oppressed group you favor most could be wrong in any way while skilfully avoiding to say that the oppressed group you favor less isn't right, and trying to deflect the blame entirely towards an oppressor group passing by.

I'm sure that you'll be willing to say that a 1920 Palestinian Arab had good reasons to feel wronged. But only as long as the 1920 Jewish immigrant will be kept exempt of any kind of criticism, and the blame will be entirely put on the shoulder of some 1920 British official.



The British government didn't force Jews to emigrate to Palestine. And it didn't come up suddenly with the idea of establishing a Jewish homeland in Palestine and proposed it to Jews, who then answered : "It never occured to us, but what a great idea!". Jews tried hard to establish this homeland. You can't blame solely the British as if Zionists had absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with what happened, and no responsibility altogether for what happened.

And you keep presenting them solely as helpless and desperate victims forced by the circumstances. Ignoring that, besides fear, they were, like other Europeans of this era, motivated by nationalism and the idea that as a people, they were entitled to a homeland. And that, like other Europeans of this era, they couldn't give a shit about the colonized populations.
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Old 05-17-2019, 11:20 AM
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What I have an issue with is the constant whitewashing of Israel's history, as if it was uniquely exempt of all criticism on this basis.
Israel is not uniquely exempt from criticism on that basis. The issue I have is that Israel is uniquely singled out for criticism on this basis. Israel should at least be as exempt from it as other countries are.

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Did I suggest to rewind anything?
Not explicitly, but it's the logical conclusion of the argument that the only legitimate permission for settlement is the natives of a land rather than the current government controlling the land.

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And I didn't follow this reasoning. I simply asserted that Israel isn't a pure lamb born from a virgin, a concept that a lot of people have an issue with. (snipped)... because admitting that the Arabs have been wronged and that there's an original sin in the history of Israel...
There's no "original sin" in the history of Israel that is not also present in the history of a host of other nations - possibly even the overwhelming majority of them - which are not similarly accused.

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...is tantamount to admit that Palestinians might have a point, and aren't just bloodthirsty simpletons who never had any good reason to complain about anything, which they'd rather have everybody believe.
And that would depend entirely on what the "point" one is admitting that the Palestinians "might have." If that point is that the inherent illegitimacy of the presence of large numbers of Jews in what is now the state of Israel means that Israel needs to make reparations, with no pre-conditions, to a quasi-national entity that has shown it only belligerent intent, then I'd say that Israel's refusal to do so is not something they have good reason to complain about.
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