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  #2501  
Old 02-16-2018, 02:35 PM
Baal Houtham is offline
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Originally Posted by Randolph View Post
Indeed.
Snort.
  #2502  
Old 02-16-2018, 02:37 PM
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The more criminals he finds, the less chance Trump is a criminal?
The more criminals he finds without indications of any connections to the campaign, then certainly that's going to be a positive from Trump's point of view.

What's the argument otherwise? How is today's news bad for the Trump campaign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveG1 View Post
I highly doubt they were all unwitting.
That's the term Mueller used in the indictment.
  #2503  
Old 02-16-2018, 02:37 PM
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I highly doubt they were all unwitting.
Witless, surely.
  #2504  
Old 02-16-2018, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Tildrum View Post
The more criminals he finds without indications of any connections to the campaign, then certainly that's going to be a positive from Trump's point of view.

What's the argument otherwise? How is today's news bad for the Trump campaign?
Not speaking for any specific people here, but the argument otherwise is that 1) there's no doubt that Trump colluded with the Russians and the only question is if Mueller will nail him on it, and 2) from today's indictments we see that Mueller is hot on the case of the Russian perpetrators and it's only a matter of time before he finds their Trump connection, if he hasn't already.

Requires that you accept the premise from the outset, so a lot of bias confirmation at work here, but that's what I think is at bottom of the exultation.
  #2505  
Old 02-16-2018, 02:42 PM
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The more criminals he finds without indications of any connections to the campaign, then certainly that's going to be a positive from Trump's point of view.

What's the argument otherwise? How is today's news bad for the Trump campaign?



That's the term Mueller used in the indictment.
I said ALL. I will accept that some or many may be unwitting - as in STUPID enough to betray.. But to assume ALL are unwitting? Like I said, I doubt it. There was too much "back room shit" going on. Maybe Meuller just won't tip his hand quite yet.
  #2506  
Old 02-16-2018, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Tildrum View Post
No allegations of collusion or conspiracy with any campaign staff, according to the Bloomberg article. Contacts in the Trump campaign are specified as "unwitting."
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveG1 View Post
I highly doubt they were all unwitting.
Perhaps it was a poor word choice and they meant "witless"?

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 02-16-2018 at 02:44 PM. Reason: shakes fist at ThelmaLou
  #2507  
Old 02-16-2018, 02:46 PM
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Bannon has spoken with the House intel committee for 20 hours over the past two days, but he only answered 25 questions which he had himself provided to the committee, the answer to each of them was "No." He told the committee that he was sort of, kind of, but not really, claiming executive privilege, even if the questioning involves the transition and not the administration. When committee members tried to ask him other questions, he said the administration had not authorized him to answer any other questions. Adam Schiff wants contempt charges filed.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/bannon-hi...c=bell-brknews
  #2508  
Old 02-16-2018, 02:48 PM
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Busy day, Mueller:

https://disq.us/url?url=https%3A%2F%...U&cuid=5299687

Quote:
In total, Pinedo made tens of thousands of dollars by knowingly transferring hundreds of bank account numbers that were ultimately used to commit wire fraud.

It is not immediately clear from the filings how Pinedo fits into the larger context of the Russia investigation.
  #2509  
Old 02-16-2018, 02:50 PM
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Know how one can tell this is great news for Trump? Because he tweeted this about 10 minutes after the news broke:

"Russia talk is FAKE NEWS put out by the Dems, and played up by the media, in order to mask the big election defeat and the illegal leaks!"

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...16511944523777
Actually, I want to apologize to FP for this entire post. It was unfair and based on (mis)information I should have caught. I should have double-checked the dates and as this isn't the first time I made this mistake, a simple mea culpa doesn't really suffice. My apologies.

Last edited by JohnT; 02-16-2018 at 02:51 PM.
  #2510  
Old 02-16-2018, 02:53 PM
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I said ALL. I will accept that some or many may be unwitting - as in STUPID enough to betray.. But to assume ALL are unwitting? Like I said, I doubt it. There was too much "back room shit" going on. Maybe Meuller just won't tip his hand quite yet.
I think he's trolling the trump team.

"Oh, you guys were just unwitting pawns in russia's meddling. You couldn't have been competent enough to be involved, you weren't even competent enough to know that you were being used to undermine our democracy."

Then trump fires back, "Of course I was in on the plot, there was no unwitting!"
  #2511  
Old 02-16-2018, 02:58 PM
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So Mr. Mueller has indicted 13 Russian nationals. What do they need to worry about? Extradition to the US?
  #2512  
Old 02-16-2018, 02:58 PM
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Weird part of the story:
Quote:
After the election, the group organized both pro- and anti-Trump rallies, including a “Trump is NOT my President” rally in New York the week after the election and one in Charlotte, North Carolina, the following week.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...cking-election

It's pretty much accepted that the Russians supported Trump, so you have to wonder about the purpose of such rallies from their perspective. Perhaps some bet-hedging? (Earlier in that article it says that the Russians also liked Sanders - perhaps they wanted to build a connection to Sanders people.)
  #2513  
Old 02-16-2018, 02:59 PM
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Its also very specific to these 13 indictments - there are likely still others to come. (bolding mine) -

Quote:
Originally Posted by https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/16/politics/mueller-russia-indictments-election-interference/index.html
Rosenstein said Friday that the indictment does not contain any allegations that any Americans knowingly participated in the activity.
"There is no allegation in this indictment that any American was a knowing participant in this illegal activity," he said. "There is no allegation in the indictment that the charge conduct altered the outcome of the 2016 election."

Last edited by simster; 02-16-2018 at 03:01 PM.
  #2514  
Old 02-16-2018, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
Weird part of the story: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...cking-election

It's pretty much accepted that the Russians supported Trump, so you have to wonder about the purpose of such rallies from their perspective. Perhaps some bet-hedging? (Earlier in that article it says that the Russians also liked Sanders - perhaps they wanted to build a connection to Sanders people.)

They are sowing dissent. The goal is undermining America. That is the reason for supporting Trump. They also tried to organize both anti and pro Muslim rallies, at the same time and the same place.
  #2515  
Old 02-16-2018, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Tildrum View Post
The more criminals he finds without indications of any connections to the campaign, then certainly that's going to be a positive from Trump's point of view.

What's the argument otherwise? How is today's news bad for the Trump campaign?
Argument A: it might get Trump to stop yammering that Russia meddling is "fake news" and "Vlad said he didn't do it and I believe him." Those statements now (as if there was any doubt) make Trump look stupid, naive, disingenuous or a lying traitorous pig...take your choice.

Argument B: Today's indictments are about the Russian social media disinformation efforts. They're not about delivering stolen e-mail to the Trump campaign. That shoe is still waiting to drop.

Last edited by jsc1953; 02-16-2018 at 03:32 PM.
  #2516  
Old 02-16-2018, 03:33 PM
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Yeah, they support both sides of an issue pretty frequently on social media. Last fall it was NFL anthem protests. Today, as I type this separate groups of Russian controlled Twitter accounts are promoting both #falseflag and #bangunsnow.
  #2517  
Old 02-16-2018, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
Weird part of the story: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...cking-election

It's pretty much accepted that the Russians supported Trump, so you have to wonder about the purpose of such rallies from their perspective. Perhaps some bet-hedging? (Earlier in that article it says that the Russians also liked Sanders - perhaps they wanted to build a connection to Sanders people.)
The Russians were doing what they've been doing since the 1930's - undermining American elections, setting citizens against each other, sowing confusion, spreading propaganda, etc. In the past it was almost universally done to benefit the left in America, but in this new era of Oligarchs and non-ideological competition, they'll happily throw money and effort to any side that can help destabilize the U.S. and make Russia's stance in the world a little stronger.

The Russians have no love for Trump. They probably didn't expect him to win - but even if he didn't, their efforts would have damaged a Hillary Presidency out of the gate. But once Trump actually won, they shifted tactics and started exploiting the widening division between Trump and anti-Trump factions.

Will the people decrying Russian intervention in U.S. politics remain as vocal in their condemnation as the Russians turn their attention to undermining the Trump administration?
  #2518  
Old 02-16-2018, 03:37 PM
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Bannon has spoken with the House intel committee for 20 hours over the past two days, but he only answered 25 questions which he had himself provided to the committee, the answer to each of them was "No." He told the committee that he was sort of, kind of, but not really, claiming executive privilege, even if the questioning involves the transition and not the administration. When committee members tried to ask him other questions, he said the administration had not authorized him to answer any other questions. Adam Schiff wants contempt charges filed.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/bannon-hi...c=bell-brknews
No, he spoke to Mueller for 20 hours and answered every question. The House Intel committee was a shorter interview and, as you said, he only answered the 25 scripted questions and refused to answer any expansions, etc.
  #2519  
Old 02-16-2018, 03:44 PM
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No, he spoke to Mueller for 20 hours and answered every question.
How does that go against what Rick Kitchen said?
  #2520  
Old 02-16-2018, 03:48 PM
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That tweet is from last year...
But not too different from today's...

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/...94780088033282

Quote:
Originally Posted by @realDonaldTrump

Russia started their anti-US campaign in 2014, long before I announced that I would run for President. The results of the election were not impacted. The Trump campaign did nothing wrong - no collusion!

2/16/18 12:18 PM
No concern shown for a hostile foreign power messing with our democracy...
  #2521  
Old 02-16-2018, 03:54 PM
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How does that go against what Rick Kitchen said?
No, he was right, sorry, I mistyped.
  #2522  
Old 02-16-2018, 04:02 PM
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So Mr. Mueller has indicted 13 Russian nationals. What do they need to worry about? Extradition to the US?
  #2523  
Old 02-16-2018, 04:03 PM
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But not too different from today's...

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/...94780088033282



No concern shown for a hostile foreign power messing with our democracy...
As has been eloquently stated elsewhere: Trump applies all information to one and only one filter -- how does this affect me?
  #2524  
Old 02-16-2018, 04:05 PM
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So Mr. Mueller has indicted 13 Russian nationals. What do they need to worry about? Extradition to the US?
With the indictment, records can be subpoenaed from banks and internet carriers.
  #2525  
Old 02-16-2018, 04:20 PM
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Perhaps it was a poor word choice and they meant "witless"?
<Tap, tap>
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThelmaLou View Post
Witless, surely.
  #2526  
Old 02-16-2018, 04:25 PM
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The Russians were doing what they've been doing since the 1930's - undermining American elections, setting citizens against each other, sowing confusion, spreading propaganda, etc. In the past it was almost universally done to benefit the left in America, but in this new era of Oligarchs and non-ideological competition, they'll happily throw money and effort to any side that can help destabilize the U.S. and make Russia's stance in the world a little stronger.

The Russians have no love for Trump. They probably didn't expect him to win - but even if he didn't, their efforts would have damaged a Hillary Presidency out of the gate. But once Trump actually won, they shifted tactics and started exploiting the widening division between Trump and anti-Trump factions.

Will the people decrying Russian intervention in U.S. politics remain as vocal in their condemnation as the Russians turn their attention to undermining the Trump administration?
Huh. Sure makes you wonder what all those meetings were about between Trump campaign members, Trump cabinet members, Trump family members and Russians connected to Putin, that no one on Team Trump wants to talk about or even acknowledge until they're caught dead to rights with evidence for same. Doesn't it?
  #2527  
Old 02-16-2018, 04:29 PM
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But not too different from today's...

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/...94780088033282



No concern shown for a hostile foreign power messing with our democracy...
when I looked earlier that wasn't there - wow -
  #2528  
Old 02-16-2018, 04:31 PM
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Goddamn it. Sorry about that.
No need to be really. Trump was briefed on Russian shenanigans before he took office and has denied them ever since. His tweets about this being a hoax were (obviously) lies.
  #2529  
Old 02-16-2018, 04:32 PM
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Message from Trumpelthinskin:

Quote:
President Trump says, “it is more important than ever before to come together as Americans. We cannot allow those seeking to sow confusion, discord, and rancor to be successful. It’s time we stop the outlandish partisan attacks, wild and false allegations, and far-fetched theories, which only serve to further the agendas of bad actors, like Russia, and do nothing to protect the principles of our institutions. We must unite as Americans to protect the integrity of our democracy and our elections.”
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  #2530  
Old 02-16-2018, 04:33 PM
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Best. Infrastructure. Week. Ever.
  #2531  
Old 02-16-2018, 04:40 PM
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Best. Infrastructure. Week. Ever.
My fucking god, I wish I'd said that.
  #2532  
Old 02-16-2018, 04:43 PM
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Dear lord, they even put "No Collusion" in all caps.
  #2533  
Old 02-16-2018, 04:57 PM
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In the past it was almost universally done to benefit the left in America
Be interested to see your cite for this.
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  #2534  
Old 02-16-2018, 05:01 PM
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I see about 6 words in that message that Trump couldn't even spell.
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According to the Anti-Defamation League, "In 2018, domestic extremists killed at least 50 people in the US, a sharp increase from the 37 extremist-related murders documented in 2017....every single extremist killing — from Pittsburgh to Parkland — had a link to right-wing extremism."
  #2535  
Old 02-16-2018, 05:05 PM
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So Mr. Mueller has indicted 13 Russian nationals. What do they need to worry about? Extradition to the US?
Assassination? Putin really really doesn't like loose ends. Extradition may be the least of their problems.
  #2536  
Old 02-16-2018, 05:06 PM
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With the indictment, records can be subpoenaed from banks and internet carriers.
Thanks for that, I was wondering the same thing. I imagined a Russian at the MAGA troll farm not giving a shit about being indicted.
  #2537  
Old 02-16-2018, 05:14 PM
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No expectation that anybody will be extradited but it's a big public signal from Mueller that the 'Russher thing" isn't a hoax.
  #2538  
Old 02-16-2018, 05:19 PM
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How does that go against what Rick Kitchen said?
Same thing. He only answered scripted pre-arranged (by who?) questions and refused to deviate from the script or address anything not pre-arranged (by who?)

Lock his crusty ass up for contempt. Ten work on putting him away for other more serious things.

And if he turns on Trump, squeeze him for all he's got and then lock him up anyway.
  #2539  
Old 02-16-2018, 06:08 PM
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Message from Trumpelthinskin:
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...We cannot allow those seeking to sow confusion, discord, and rancor...
Um... but that would be thump hisownself, wouldn't it?
  #2540  
Old 02-16-2018, 06:23 PM
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My fucking god, I wish I'd said that.


You still can! I stole it from some dude on Reddit so there’s no reason why you should have scruples.
  #2541  
Old 02-16-2018, 06:31 PM
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No expectation that anybody will be extradited but it's a big public signal from Mueller that the 'Russher thing" isn't a hoax.
That's the important takeaway from these indictments, for sure.

It's Mueller's way of warning Americans that this is not a hoax, this really happened, it continues to happen and our intelligence agencies have the proof of it.

It's an extremely detailed speaking indictment that lays out the true situation for those in this country who care to know: The things we need to watch for; the breadth and depth of the intrusion; the reality of the threat and steps we must take to beat back further interference.

It also brings pressure to bear on Congress to start taking the threats seriously. It shows Devin Nunes for the traitorous chump he is. Congress must choose: Protect Trump, or protect the nation.

It highlights exactly how disinterested Trump himself is in protecting anything but his own miserable hide.

Lastly, it takes some heat off Rosenstein, Wray and the FBI.

All in a good day's work.
  #2542  
Old 02-16-2018, 06:32 PM
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You still can! I stole it from some dude on Reddit so there’s no reason why you should have scruples.
You're right!!! I will!!!
  #2543  
Old 02-16-2018, 06:49 PM
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... Will the people decrying Russian intervention in U.S. politics remain as vocal in their condemnation as the Russians turn their attention to undermining the Trump administration?
If you're hoping to hear anti-Trump Americans busting out with 'go, Russia, go' chants, you're going to have a very long wait.

Besides, Trump undermines the Trump administration far more thoroughly than any Russian could aspire to do.
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  #2544  
Old 02-16-2018, 06:52 PM
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Will the people decrying Russian intervention in U.S. politics remain as vocal in their condemnation as the Russians turn their attention to undermining the Trump administration?
Pretty much, since (unlike republicans) the majority of liberals aren't 'party before country' types and oppose all things they perceive as awful, which includes people who want to destroy our country domestic and foreign.
  #2545  
Old 02-16-2018, 07:06 PM
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Best. Infrastructure. Week. Ever.
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My fucking god, I wish I'd said that.
I wish I’d understood it. Did the America-hating fuckstick announce that this week was going to be about infrastructure, or something?
  #2546  
Old 02-16-2018, 07:10 PM
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I wish I’d understood it. Did the America-hating fuckstick announce that this week was going to be about infrastructure, or something?
He did. This was Infrastructure Week. Again.
  #2547  
Old 02-16-2018, 07:22 PM
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<Tap, tap>
FFS, I shook my fist at you; what more do you want?

  #2548  
Old 02-16-2018, 07:55 PM
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Will the people decrying Russian intervention in U.S. politics remain as vocal in their condemnation as the Russians turn their attention to undermining the Trump administration?
Wow. I thought regular whataboutism was dumb, and you release the imaginary expansion pack. Good job lowering the bar.
  #2549  
Old 02-16-2018, 08:00 PM
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Will the people decrying Russian intervention in U.S. politics remain as vocal in their condemnation as the Russians turn their attention to undermining the Trump administration?
It's hard to undermine something that is already a gaping hole in the ground.
  #2550  
Old 02-16-2018, 08:06 PM
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Art Buchwald's 1973 article of handy excuses for Nixon voters.

We've already heard about half of their modern equivalents. We'll hear the other half if proper indictments are made against Trump.
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