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  #7001  
Old 01-24-2020, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Johnny L.A. View Post
Sharing.
Me too. Love it!!
  #7002  
Old 01-24-2020, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by enipla View Post
I don't get it. There has been overwhelming evidences for years showing what a corrupt person Trump is. Yet people voted for him. And now, when the spotlight is on him, and the evidence is once again clear, people still defend him.
While I could guess at why his base loves him, I really wouldn't know how to divvy up the percentages as to why each person does. As to House reps and senators, if I had to guess I'd say quite a few of them dislike him just about as much as the average liberal, but know they have to support him or it could be the beginning of the end of the Republican party. This is not to excuse them, and in the end only makes them look so much worse. They know he is a reprehensible man, and a disaster in most areas as president, and yet don't have the guts to put their country before party.

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Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
If anyone asks you about Trump's success tell them that his dad owned about a hundred buildings, most in high property value areas. Trump owns about five buildings, most on the edge of town, which he bought after dad died, using his money.

The secret to success: Be in the will of someone who's good with money.
There is no doubt Trump profited because of who his father was, but this is a gross mischaracterization of Trump's real estate holdings. Of the buildings he owns, Trump Tower and 40 Wall Street are hardly on the edge of town, and are worth $850+ million alone. He bought 40 Wall Street in 1995 for 1 million dollars. Today it's worth 400 million! Surely Trump has had numerous failures as to his businesses, but to suggest he hasn't made profits on his own isn't the case. I don't care who your dad is, you don't get to own, fully or in part, properties like these if you don't know shit about real estate.
  #7003  
Old 01-24-2020, 12:16 PM
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"Vote against the President and your head will be on a pike", Senators have allegedly been told by the White House.

Nothing to see here.
  #7004  
Old 01-24-2020, 12:34 PM
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"Vote against the President and your head will be on a pike", Senators have allegedly been told by the White House.

Nothing to see here.
Whatís the legality of that?

Iím pretty sure if a mob boss pulled this shit on a jury trying him, it would be illegal.
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  #7005  
Old 01-24-2020, 12:58 PM
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Now that's jury tampering
  #7006  
Old 01-24-2020, 12:59 PM
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Now that's jury tampering
"b-b-b-b-but Obama did it too!"
  #7007  
Old 01-24-2020, 01:01 PM
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"Vote for the president and your head will be on a pickerel."

Last edited by kayaker; 01-24-2020 at 01:01 PM.
  #7008  
Old 01-24-2020, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Fiddle Peghead View Post
There is no doubt Trump profited because of who his father was, but this is a gross mischaracterization of Trump's real estate holdings. Of the buildings he owns, Trump Tower and 40 Wall Street are hardly on the edge of town, and are worth $850+ million alone. He bought 40 Wall Street in 1995 for 1 million dollars. Today it's worth 400 million! Surely Trump has had numerous failures as to his businesses, but to suggest he hasn't made profits on his own isn't the case. I don't care who your dad is, you don't get to own, fully or in part, properties like these if you don't know shit about real estate.
Without commenting on my knowledge of real estate, I'll note that I do understand the word "most". And if you reference what I actually said, you'll see that word used.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 01-24-2020 at 01:09 PM.
  #7009  
Old 01-24-2020, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Fiddle Peghead View Post
He bought 40 Wall Street in 1995 for 1 million dollars. Today it's worth 400 million!
The trusted source for those numbers is...a Mr Donald J Trump.
Astonishingly, the reality doesn't quite match up.

We don't know what Trump paid for it, as that information has not been disclosed, but it changed hands for $8 million two years before Trump bought it.
Some other relevant facts include that it required an estimated $100 million to convert the interior space into modern offices. Trump doesn't actually own the building and only paid for the right to rent out the offices, he owes $50 million in mortgage payments and he's apparently tried to inflate the market value of the property / rental space by lying about occupancy figures. (Cite)

Note also that it's technically been on sale since 2003 expecting offers in excess of $300 million...there have been no takers. (cite)

I will say though, probably Trump will ultimately make money on this property. But there's a big difference between that and trump's reality
  #7010  
Old 01-24-2020, 02:04 PM
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The Audience?


The prosecutors are doing an excellent job of presentation, but who is the audience? Few senators seem interested.

The Trumpsters I have talked to are concerned only about abortion, gun rights and not giving money to people who don't work for it. They don't care about the Ukraine and are in favor of anything that reduces foreign involvement.

The audience then seems to be the voting public in general. They are setting up November to be a referendum on Trump.
  #7011  
Old 01-24-2020, 02:34 PM
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Weird. UltraVires is very active on the board for at least 6 hours now, with 30+ responses, including some taking Hunter Biden to task. But I haven't seen him active in this thread now.

Maybe asking again on a new page will help:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamlet
Just so I understand your position, if President Trump withheld Congressionally approved aid in a blatant attempt to get Ukraine to announce an investigation for purely political motives and then had people lie and refused to cooperate with the investigation or respond to lawful subpoenas, it would still be unimpeachable.

Is that right?

Last edited by Hamlet; 01-24-2020 at 02:34 PM.
  #7012  
Old 01-24-2020, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Mijin View Post
The trusted source for those numbers is...a Mr Donald J Trump.
Astonishingly, the reality doesn't quite match up.

We don't know what Trump paid for it, as that information has not been disclosed, but it changed hands for $8 million two years before Trump bought it.
Some other relevant facts include that it required an estimated $100 million to convert the interior space into modern offices. Trump doesn't actually own the building and only paid for the right to rent out the offices, he owes $50 million in mortgage payments and he's apparently tried to inflate the market value of the property / rental space by lying about occupancy figures. (Cite)

Note also that it's technically been on sale since 2003 expecting offers in excess of $300 million...there have been no takers. (cite)

I will say though, probably Trump will ultimately make money on this property. But there's a big difference between that and trump's reality
Whatever the cost, he's still shrunk his dad's business by somewhere in the range of 20X. Unless this one building is the size of 20 city blocks, the exact numbers are fairly irrelevant.

I realize now that I also forgot the DC hotel. I'll have to update my numbers but it should still be in the 20:1 territory.
  #7013  
Old 01-24-2020, 04:06 PM
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Without commenting on my knowledge of real estate, I'll note that I do understand the word "most". And if you reference what I actually said, you'll see that word used.
Just to make sure I am not misunderstanding this, you know that I was saying that Trump doesn't not "know shit about real estate" and nothing about your knowledge, right?
  #7014  
Old 01-24-2020, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Mijin View Post
The trusted source for those numbers is...a Mr Donald J Trump.
Astonishingly, the reality doesn't quite match up.

...

I will say though, probably Trump will ultimately make money on this property. But there's a big difference between that and trump's reality
Thanks for the info. I relied on the Wiki page only for that info, and indeed only a brief search just now confirms it by far doesn't tell the whole story. But despite the things you mention, I maintain that Trump has done very well for himself in the real estate business, and one would be better off find other things to criticize him for. There are more than enough things in that category.

Last edited by Fiddle Peghead; 01-24-2020 at 04:14 PM.
  #7015  
Old 01-24-2020, 04:49 PM
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Just to make sure I am not misunderstanding this, you know that I was saying that Trump doesn't not "know shit about real estate" and nothing about your knowledge, right?
You said that I was misrepresenting the situation.

During Fred's life, he served as collateral for Trump Tower. Outside of that one building, every other building owned by Donald went into bankruptcy and by the time if his father's death, he had brought himself at least into a debt of $2.5b. It is likely that he also had various legal liabilities due to SEC violations, fraud suit losses, etc. that add to that number.

His buildings were all taken away from him and, I presume, he was made liable for some smaller amount than $2.5b but still, likely, something fairly large. Let's assume $50m. A fair discount.

If I remember correctly, he took a $200-300m loan from Deutsche and he liquidated his father's business, which was composed of approximately 100 buildings totaling 27,000 apartments in New York City itself and, presumably, a greater number of buildings that aren't just apartments. Fred's wealth was divided among the children, so we can assume that Donald received about 1/5th of that fortune.

If we assume that each of Fred's buildings was worth something like $5m (in today's money), then he'd have gained about another $100m there.

So he's down $50m and up $300-400m via loans and family death. He should have between $250m and $350m

He purchases six more buildings, Mar-a-lago, 40 Wall Street, a golf resort in the South that I forget the location of, another one in California, the DC hotel, and the place in Scotland. If we assume that these are each worth $10m on average, then he has spent $60m.

At this point, he seems to be out of money. This implies that he only had $60m, where we would expect him to have 4-5x that amount. But as said, he's beleaguered by a history of bad business operation and legal issues and we have no strong reason to expect that he would change or have learned anything given that his last giant failures were when he was already in his 40s, so we should assume that he's continuing to add to his debts through poor choices and new legal issues.

That his new businesses seem to succeed may be some small indication that he has learned how to run things successfully.

However, Donald seems to have discovered that he does have at least one talent that can be turned into money, which is to be entertaining. And spending time in Hollywood, he picks up the same no-business-acumen-necessary side business as everyone else they with a "name" and rent that name out.

While busy in Hollywood, he lets others (e.g. Ivanka) manage his properties while he himself tries to figure out how to work fat jokes into episodes of the Apprentice.

With Ivanka running things, his name earning a few million every year, and Apprentice earnings, he has possibly found a recipe for financial survival.

But we note, for example, that he continues to regularly not pay money he owes. He yanks funding for people who are in legal jeopardy who could turn on him, like Michael Cohen, ensuring that he's liable to end up in jail after leaving the Presidency.

The fair indication would be that despite having achieved something which should have been a maintainable business, even for someone like him, he's still managing to dip into the red regularly.

And overall, one suspects that had he been good at business then Fred would have given him everything. So as it is, he did turn 100 buildings, in New York City, into a far smaller number, and the value of those buildings is not so great as to make that anything like a good turnout.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 01-24-2020 at 04:51 PM.
  #7016  
Old 01-24-2020, 06:18 PM
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Sorry, the giant bankruptcy happened in the mid-oughts. Trump would have been around 60 years old, not in his 40s.
  #7017  
Old 01-24-2020, 06:28 PM
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You said that I was misrepresenting the situation.
Well, I think "Trump owns about five buildings, most on the edge of town" is a misrepresentation.
  #7018  
Old 01-24-2020, 06:30 PM
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Well, I think "Trump owns about five buildings, most on the edge of town" is a misrepresentation.
I was counting 3 of 5. That was wrong. It's 4 of 7, I believe. I'm going by memory, sorry. If someone else wants to calculate the correct number, who has more time, I won't complain.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 01-24-2020 at 06:32 PM.
  #7019  
Old 01-25-2020, 01:21 AM
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Originally Posted by John_Stamos'_Left_Ear View Post
Do you really not understand the difference between something that is in the National interest and something that is in his personal and political interest and actually hurts our national interests?



It may be difficult to put a specific price tag on what it means to the president of the United States, but are you honestly saying you feel there is no value?
Plus, remember that the America-hating fuckstick himself is on record with a claim that his name alone adds $3Bn in value.

Cite.
  #7020  
Old 01-25-2020, 10:30 AM
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Funny how now that the Republicans are speaking, Fox decides to play the sound from the senate floor. Unbe-fucking-lievable.
  #7021  
Old 01-25-2020, 10:35 AM
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While I could guess at why his base loves him, I really wouldn't know how to divvy up the percentages as to why each person does. As to House reps and senators, if I had to guess I'd say quite a few of them dislike him just about as much as the average liberal, but know they have to support him or it could be the beginning of the end of the Republican party. This is not to excuse them, and in the end only makes them look so much worse. They know he is a reprehensible man, and a disaster in most areas as president, and yet don't have the guts to put their country before party.



There is no doubt Trump profited because of who his father was, but this is a gross mischaracterization of Trump's real estate holdings. Of the buildings he owns, Trump Tower and 40 Wall Street are hardly on the edge of town, and are worth $850+ million alone. He bought 40 Wall Street in 1995 for 1 million dollars. Today it's worth 400 million! Surely Trump has had numerous failures as to his businesses, but to suggest he hasn't made profits on his own isn't the case. I don't care who your dad is, you don't get to own, fully or in part, properties like these if you don't know shit about real estate.
.

Letís not forget that literally hours after 9/11 attacks Trump was bragging on a radio show that 40 Wall was now the tallest building downtown (which iirc was also a lie).
  #7022  
Old 01-25-2020, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by John_Stamos'_Left_Ear View Post
Do you really not understand the difference between something that is in the National interest and something that is in his personal and political interest and actually hurts our national interests?



It may be difficult to put a specific price tag on what it means to the president of the United States, but are you honestly saying you feel there is no value?
I guess we'll never know the answers to these questions...
  #7023  
Old 01-26-2020, 11:02 PM
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In case anyone is interested, here’s the entire 1:24 minute audio. (It’s a cell phone video but for the most part the visual is the ceiling. I’ve made it about an hour in and I’ll finish it later but somehow manages to be boring and fascinating at the same time.) Lots of rich donors trying to steer policies. One particularly interesting section showed lots of the donors trying REALLY REALLY hard to push Trump towards a liberal marijuana policy. It sounds like they all want to invest and the inability of the banking industry to work with cannabis businesses is a real problem for them.

And Trump shows his extraordinary ignorance regarding Ukraine. When he found out they had oil (which he didn’t know, apparently- ) you could almost hear him thinking “why are we giving them money then”. And one if the donors was attempting to make the case that supporting Ukraine was critically important ( not sure if it was Parnas or Fruman ) and Trump wasnt quite there yet.

This is sure to royally piss off some donors, but that’s what they get for lax security. And I’m sure the press will be analyzing it and releasing clips for weeks.

https://youtu.be/789CORXvvRA

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 01-26-2020 at 11:02 PM.
  #7024  
Old 01-27-2020, 01:24 AM
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This is sure to royally piss off some donors, but thatís what they get for lax security. And Iím sure the press will be analyzing it and releasing clips for weeks.
So far the critical part is where Parnas suggests that Ambassador Yovanovitch is bad-mouthing Trump and Trump immediately orders for her to be fired.

Frustratingly, there are still Republicans going on the news shows and claiming Trump did not know Parnas, he was just some dude that happened to be at a dinner.
Oh, just some dude, that he can't remember, that he trusted enough to fire the Ambassador based purely on what said dude was telling him?
  #7025  
Old 01-27-2020, 05:05 AM
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He probably said it and forgot about it five seconds later. Less, maybe, depending on the proximity of shiny.
  #7026  
Old 01-27-2020, 06:00 AM
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Well at least I know if I'm ever at a random fundraiser, with Trump agreeing to a photo because he takes thousands of photos with people, I should just whisper: "I hear Mitch McConnell says you're an unstable idiot..."
  #7027  
Old 01-27-2020, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Ann Hedonia View Post
In case anyone is interested, hereís the entire 1:24 minute audio...

https://youtu.be/789CORXvvRA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mijin View Post
So far the critical part is where Parnas suggests that Ambassador Yovanovitch is bad-mouthing Trump and Trump immediately orders for her to be fired.
Can you link to the 'critical part'?
  #7028  
Old 01-27-2020, 12:49 PM
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Can you link to the 'critical part'?
https://youtu.be/789CORXvvRA?t=2524
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  #7029  
Old 01-27-2020, 03:15 PM
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Can you link to the 'critical part'?
The critical part is about 40 minutes in. It should be really easy to find a clip of just the part where he talks about getting rid of Yovanovitch, it has been plastered everywhere and played incessantly.

It was harder to find the full tape. Itís the kind of thing I find interesting, though. Itís not a smoking gun of criminality, just candid private conversations with donors stroking his ego and pushing their causes.

If anyone else out there other than me is interested in Russia/Ukraine recent history and politics, Putin in particular - the Kindle version of Fiona Hillís book Mr. Putin -Operative In the Kremlin is on sale for today at least - Iím not sure if itís a daily, weekly or monthly deal.

I had considered buying it before but I always choked at the $25+ price for an e-book. So it made my day when I saw it on sale today for $2.99.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 01-27-2020 at 03:16 PM.
  #7030  
Old 01-27-2020, 08:40 PM
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Bolton says that Barr was also concerned about Trump was trading favors to dictators.
  #7031  
Old 01-27-2020, 09:22 PM
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Bolton says that Barr was also concerned about Trump was trading favors to dictators.
Based on the opinion I've formed about Barr watching his own undue influence over legitimate investigations in our own country, I'd say Barr is more concerned with how it looks than that it is actually happening.
  #7032  
Old 01-27-2020, 09:36 PM
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"Maybe we can let them have Barr, maybe they will think the Atty Gen is the big enchilada, and be satisfied, leave the President alone...."

President Donald J. Nixon
  #7033  
Old 01-28-2020, 12:05 AM
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Clean Gene Robinson made note of an interesting thing. Early tonight, Team Trump was adamantly absitively and posolutely denying any suggestion that Il Douche urged an investigation. Then later came Bondi, Pam Bondi to say of course he urged investigation into Burisma, sure! Because that's what a warrior against corruption is obliged to do, its his duty!
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