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Old 10-04-2014, 06:42 PM
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Serial (the podcast)


This is a just-started new series of podcasts from a producer of "This American Life".

http://serialpodcast.org/

Two episodes have been posted so far, with weekly updates.

The current series is about a 17-year-old high school student named Adnan, convicted 15 years ago of killing his girlfriend. He says he didn't do it. We hear him tell his own version (via collect calls from prison), and then hear other accounts - a taped police interview of a friend whose testimony was crucial in implicating him, words from a woman who said she saw him at the library when the crime occurred (she was never called to testify), even the victim's diary entries, relating the ups and downs of their romance.

Each episode is planned to cover a different aspect of the story: Adnan's arrest and conviction (his lawyer was later disbarred and may not have given a good defense), the young couple's relationship and school life, the friends who defend Adnan today. I don't know how long it will continue; however future series will cover topics besides crime. So far it's similar to This American Life, but much more in-depth than their typical short pieces. How this current series will end is unknown - it's likely not going to reach any dramatic conclusion (like say Adnan walking free). But that's real life.

I wonder if anyone else here is following this. What are your thoughts?
  #2  
Old 10-08-2014, 12:16 PM
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I like it so far. Sarah Koenig is always great on TAL, and you can really feel her swings of emotion and belief in Adnan's guilt or innocence.

Whether he is guilty or not, it strikes me as pretty appalling that we can lock up someone for life based on the testimony of a single witness when there is zero corroborating physical evidence. My daughter did Mock Trial in high school. This is the kind of case where the prosecuting team would be dancing like mad to distract from the fact that they had very little to go on.
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Old 10-08-2014, 12:50 PM
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I have subscribed to this podcast and have listened to the first two episodes. I plan to keep listening. For the past six months to a year, I have noticed a diminishment in the quality of new episodes of This American life as well as what seemed like an unusual number of rebroadcasts. I'm glad to know now that the probable cause of all of that was the same small staff working on this new series.

I agree with RickG that it is just mindblowing that this guy is in jail based on the uncorroborated testimony of one dude. I don't care if he did it or not, that should not be enough to send someone away for more than fifteen years.

The show has been good so far, with all of the story-telling skill and production values that have made me enjoy TAL for years.
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Old 10-08-2014, 12:56 PM
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I have subscribed to this podcast and have listened to the first two episodes. I plan to keep listening. For the past six months to a year, I have noticed a diminishment in the quality of new episodes of This American life as well as what seemed like an unusual number of rebroadcasts. I'm glad to know now that the probable cause of all of that was the same small staff working on this new series.

I agree with RickG that it is just mindblowing that this guy is in jail based on the uncorroborated testimony of one dude. I don't care if he did it or not, that should not be enough to send someone away for more than fifteen years.

The show has been good so far, with all of the story-telling skill and production values that have made me enjoy TAL for years.
I am listening as well, and completely agree with your point about TAL.

I wonder though if future episodes will talk more about why he was convicted. I know she said that the other guy's testimony was the only evidence, but I wonder if the picture painted for the jury at the time was more compelling.

If you enjoy the podcast, you should visit the website. It has maps, photos, and evidence. It was interesting seeing the map where Hae was dumped. A crazy number of bodies have been dumped in the park where she was found.
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Old 10-08-2014, 10:26 PM
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So far, it seems he was convicted nearly entirely on the testimony of his friend (Jay?). But, we haven't heard from Jay yet (and I don't know if we will), but I assume we will at least hear something about why he is accusing his friend.

But, based on what I've heard so far, I'm definitely not thinking beyond a reasonable doubt guilty, but more like 65% leaning toward guilty.
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Old 10-08-2014, 10:47 PM
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So far, it seems he was convicted nearly entirely on the testimony of his friend (Jay?). But, we haven't heard from Jay yet (and I don't know if we will), but I assume we will at least hear something about why he is accusing his friend.

But, based on what I've heard so far, I'm definitely not thinking beyond a reasonable doubt guilty, but more like 65% leaning toward guilty.
I'm curious why you're leaning towards guilty. Jay's taped interview felt like bullshit to me. Way too casual about being approached about murder and just going along with it.
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Old 10-08-2014, 11:01 PM
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I'm curious why you're leaning towards guilty. Jay's taped interview felt like bullshit to me. Way too casual about being approached about murder and just going along with it.
65% is hardly certain. I wouldn't have voted to convict based on what we've heard so far. That's why I want to hear more about Jay. If he is on the up and up, I see no reason for him to make up that story, which was fairly unequivocal. If there is some reason not to trust him, I'm more than willing to swing the other way. I assume there will be more on him later on.

The alibi witness girl seemed full of crap to me. Definitely seemed like someone who, as a teenager, tried to get involved in something but later regretted it and wanted nothing to do with it anymore.
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Old 10-08-2014, 11:19 PM
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The alibi witness girl seemed full of crap to me. Definitely seemed like someone who, as a teenager, tried to get involved in something but later regretted it and wanted nothing to do with it anymore.
I was a little surprised she didn't press her on why she flip flopped. Her excuse about not wanting a murderer to know where she lived was pretty dumb.

Also, did they confirm that Adnan's lawyer never spoke to her, or was it that she didn't call her as a witness?

I am loving this show though. It kinda reminds me of Dateline if they had smarter producers. I kinda wish I could buy them all now and listen. They should have had that option.

Last edited by brickbacon; 10-08-2014 at 11:22 PM.
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Old 10-08-2014, 11:24 PM
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The alibi girl (Asia?) was never contacted at all by the lawyer.

I am also mostly curious to hear more about Jay and if he had any motivation to lie.
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Old 10-08-2014, 11:32 PM
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The alibi girl (Asia?) was never contacted at all by the lawyer.

I am also mostly curious to hear more about Jay and if he had any motivation to lie.
Thanks for the clarification.

I would hope Jay was more convincing on the witness stand than he sounded on the tape. I also wonder if he got off scot-free. It's infuriating there isn't more info about the case on the internet. It's funny how much you take something like that for granted.
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Old 10-09-2014, 07:45 AM
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Thanks for the clarification.

I would hope Jay was more convincing on the witness stand than he sounded on the tape. I also wonder if he got off scot-free. It's infuriating there isn't more info about the case on the internet. It's funny how much you take something like that for granted.
I'm glad to hear that there isn't more information. I've been stopping myself from looking it up.
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Old 10-09-2014, 08:03 AM
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I'm glad to hear that there isn't more information. I've been stopping myself from looking it up.
Sadly, I don't have the will power you do. But there is little to be found AFAICT.
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Old 10-09-2014, 11:40 AM
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I am very intrigued by the story and I'm looking forward to hearing more, particularly on the Jay question. Law & Order wouldn't have put him on the stand with that weak a story.
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Old 10-09-2014, 12:22 PM
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I have subscribed to this podcast and have listened to the first two episodes. I plan to keep listening. For the past six months to a year, I have noticed a diminishment in the quality of new episodes of This American life as well as what seemed like an unusual number of rebroadcasts. I'm glad to know now that the probable cause of all of that was the same small staff working on this new series.
...along with Ira Glass' Broadway dancing extravaganza. Seriously: http://3acts2dancers1radiohost.com

I listened to the first ep. It feels like this will be a frustrating tale of justice mucked up. Also, I am not sure if/how I would commit to their podcasts, given my current schedule. I like stumbling into an opportunity to listen to TAL - I can't stumble into committing to a 12-hour narrative.
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Old 10-09-2014, 12:33 PM
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WordMan - The fact that it is a podcast makes it easier to commit. You don't have to fit yourself to their schedule, just downlaod it to your phone and listen while you're on a train or a plane.

brickbacon - I should have mentioned that part of my interest in the story is that I lived the first 45 years of my life in Baltimore. Leakin Park is a familiar memory from a few visits and frequent news stories about bodies turning up.
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Old 10-09-2014, 02:52 PM
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...along with Ira Glass' Broadway dancing extravaganza. Seriously: http://3acts2dancers1radiohost.com

I listened to the first ep. It feels like this will be a frustrating tale of justice mucked up. Also, I am not sure if/how I would commit to their podcasts, given my current schedule. I like stumbling into an opportunity to listen to TAL - I can't stumble into committing to a 12-hour narrative.
It's been refreshingly less infuriating than the past two This American Life episodes considering it is about a brutal murder.
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Old 10-10-2014, 11:06 AM
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Part 3 didn't really change my opinion much. Mostly focusing on another suspect, who no doubt was up to no good, but I think he was up to no good being drunk and naked in a park rather than strangling a girl.
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Old 10-13-2014, 08:54 AM
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I listened to episode three on my way to work this morning. As someone who lived in Baltimore for 45 years, albeit on the opposite side of town from Leakin Park, I was surprised to learn that almost everyone the reporter talked to pronounced it Lincoln Park.

The suspect Mr. S is certainly an interesting addition to the mix. The police and prosecutor lost interest in him, but I think we may hear more theories about him later.

The show is still holding my interest.
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Old 10-13-2014, 04:43 PM
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I listened to the first three episodes today and loved it - can't wait till part 4 comes out on Thursday. I'm slightly worried, though, that the producers are going to start to run into dead ends and the story will dry up before they really get to the end of this. Although they've been working on the story for a year, my impression was that they're still researching it as we speak.

At this point, I'm inclined to believe that Adnan did it, or was at least complicit in it. Although the show emphasizes how hard it is to accurately remember what you were doing on a random day six weeks ago, that question seems to me to be very much beside the point. Six weeks was (IIRC) the length of time between when Hae disappeared and when her body was discovered. But Adnan shouldn't have had to think back over the preceding six weeks: he was contacted by the police the very day of the disappearance. How could he not have solidly known what he was doing that very same day? And for that matter, why wasn't the day seared into his memory? After all, this is the day his close friend and ex-girlfriend vanishes - surely an upsetting and memorable event, and one that - if he were innocent and had half a brain - would have immediately prompted him to start mentally accounting for all his actions since he last saw Hae. Instead we're supposed to believe that he just can't remember? That maybe he went to track practice, or maybe he was at the library, maybe he was with a friend? "Who knows - it was just a regular day!" At the very least that sounds suspicious to me - not the response of a wholly innocent person. But, I'll be curious to see how things continue to unfold...
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Old 10-13-2014, 08:50 PM
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I'm totally loving this show, and it's killing me that I have to wait for the next episode. If they were all released at once I would tear through them in a day.

It's interesting to read here the mix of opinions on Adnan's guilt/innocence. Nothing in my gut tells me he did it based on everything I've heard, but my gut can be naive. The way he sounds in the phone conversations from prison, the way others speak about him, the lack of a plausible motive... nothing seems to fit with the picture of a murderer.

I'm so glad to have a new podcast to be excited about.
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Old 10-13-2014, 08:56 PM
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I listened to the first three episodes today and loved it - can't wait till part 4 comes out on Thursday. I'm slightly worried, though, that the producers are going to start to run into dead ends and the story will dry up before they really get to the end of this. Although they've been working on the story for a year, my impression was that they're still researching it as we speak.
My guess would be that, though they are still producing the episodes as they go, all the research and detail gathering phases are done, precisely for the reason you mention. They're master storytellers and I'd think they'd be wise enough to collect all their data before figuring out how to structure the episodes and the series as a whole. At least that's what I'm hoping.
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Old 10-14-2014, 02:56 PM
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After all, this is the day his close friend and ex-girlfriend vanishes - surely an upsetting and memorable event, and one that - if he were innocent and had half a brain - would have immediately prompted him to start mentally accounting for all his actions since he last saw Hae. Instead we're supposed to believe that he just can't remember? That maybe he went to track practice, or maybe he was at the library, maybe he was with a friend? "Who knows - it was just a regular day!" At the very least that sounds suspicious to me - not the response of a wholly innocent person. But, I'll be curious to see how things continue to unfold...
Exactly. Ask me to remember a random Thursday from high school, and obviously I won't be able to. Ask me to remember the Thursday from high school when my girlfriend goes missing and turns out to be brutally murdered, and I'll have a timeline etched in my skull even these 20 years later.

There was a murder of a girl in my junior high school and to this day I can remember where I was that day despite barely knowing her. It was a major event in my childhood.

I feel like they glanced over this point in the podcast.
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Old 10-16-2014, 03:09 PM
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Episode 4 was just released today. What do you all think?

I just started listening to this podcast a few days ago and I'm seriously hooked. I almost wish that I hadn't discovered it until a while later so I wouldn't be left hanging for so long.
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Old 10-16-2014, 04:44 PM
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I almost wish that I hadn't discovered it until a while later so I wouldn't be left hanging for so long.
I have every intention of just forgetting about it for a year and then come back to it when it's finished.
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Old 10-17-2014, 07:52 AM
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Episode 4 didn't change my mind. I still wouldn't vote to convict based on reasonable doubt, but I still lean toward thinking that he did it.

The only thing that changed, is that I think Jay (the witness) was more complicit in the murder and/or coverup and that is why he was so cagey and his story changed. I think he didn't want to acknowledge his role, and obviously Anand can't acknowledge Jay's role without acknowledging his own.

Again, just leaning that way, not convinced.
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Old 10-17-2014, 11:49 AM
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I'm not quite sure what to believe right now. In my view, Jay is obviously not credible, but the fact that he knew where to find the car means he was involved with the whole thing somehow. That just leaves the question of his role and whether or not Adnan was involved.

At this point in the story, I can see why the detectives were so sure they had their guy. They had the anonymous phone call, they had a sort of credible witness, a gap of time that can't be accounted for by the suspect, and a possible motive that aligns with their experience.

However, it just seems odd to me that Jay is the only person who has ever heard Adnan express a desire to kill Hae. Even in Hae's diary, it seemed that she painted Adnan as a considerate ex-boyfriend who she's on good terms with. And Adnan seems exactly like the goofy, high-achieving stoners I knew in high school who would have trouble recounting what happened the day before.
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Old 10-17-2014, 02:51 PM
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I'm totally loving this show, and it's killing me that I have to wait for the next episode. If they were all released at once I would tear through them in a day.
They should really sell the future episodes to raise money.

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Exactly. Ask me to remember a random Thursday from high school, and obviously I won't be able to. Ask me to remember the Thursday from high school when my girlfriend goes missing and turns out to be brutally murdered, and I'll have a timeline etched in my skull even these 20 years later.
I tend to agree, but I think it's important to remember that while some people were worried about her soon after her disappearance, there was a snowstorm that kept them out of school the next couple days (I think), and the fact that she was murdered was known only a few weeks later. Plus, Adnan seems like he was a pretty big pothead at the time, am not surprised he doesn't remember much.

Still though, you would think he'd either remember, or be more upset that he couldn't remember given he is in jail.

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I feel like they glanced over this point in the podcast.
I don't think they glanced over it as much as she just thought it wasn't as relevant given the above. However, I suspect there will be an episode about how others in the school reacted. I am kinda surprised there weren't groups of students looking for her, or holding vigils, etc. Maybe there were and we will hear about it later.

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I'm not quite sure what to believe right now. In my view, Jay is obviously not credible, but the fact that he knew where to find the car means he was involved with the whole thing somehow. That just leaves the question of his role and whether or not Adnan was involved.
I agree. Jay also seemed to know how she was killed and where she was buried. However, I don't get why Adnan would involve him, even going as far as to show him the body. I suppose stranger things have happened, but I suspect we have not learned the complete truth yet.

At this point in the story, I can see why the detectives were so sure they had their guy. They had the anonymous phone call, they had a sort of credible witness, a gap of time that can't be accounted for by the suspect, and a possible motive that aligns with their experience.

Rabia Chaudry blogs about the episodes here in addition to providing more insight. Obviously, she is a little biased though.
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Old 10-17-2014, 03:25 PM
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Even in Hae's diary, it seemed that she painted Adnan as a considerate ex-boyfriend who she's on good terms with. And Adnan seems exactly like the goofy, high-achieving stoners I knew in high school who would have trouble recounting what happened the day before.
But there was some odd possessiveness that they talked about. Like when he showed up repeatedly at nights that she was hanging out with girl friends. Her friends seemed to think that it was very unusual.
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Old 10-17-2014, 04:21 PM
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But there was some odd possessiveness that they talked about. Like when he showed up repeatedly at nights that she was hanging out with girl friends. Her friends seemed to think that it was very unusual.
That's a good point, I'd forgotten about that. I don't see that as being too damning of Adnan's character though. I think high school romances can veer towards mildly creepy obsession as teenagers figure out how relationships work. Even so, Hae didn't seem bothered by it and the friends didn't seem to feel that Adnan was a threat even if it was odd.

I guess like Sara Koenig said, a lot of Adnan's actions can read sinister in one light and perfectly normal in another depending on how you're predisposed to see him already.
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Old 10-25-2014, 02:31 PM
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Does anyone think Adnan didn't do it?
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Old 10-25-2014, 02:51 PM
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I am leaning towards he did do it but.... there is enough question in Jay's story and the performance of the defense attorney to perhaps warrant a new trial.

I'd like to hear more from Hae's side of the story- of course she's not here to tell it but it just seems strange that Adnan would have plans to kill her but she doesn't mention in her diary any fear of him and she must have agreed to let him in her car (if he did in fact kill her). At least, it seemed normal that she might still talk to Adnan or give him a ride. So far, I've heard other people say he said he was going to kill Hae but no one yet says that Hae expressed even anxiety over how Adnan was taking the breakup. Plus he was seeing other girls at the time- doesn't exactly point to an obsessed ex-boyfriend.

Not sure I think Asia is relevant- yes, she could have been Adnan's alibi but she's so back and forth about it you kind of wonder what's going on. Too bad no one could have nailed that down at the beginning- maybe another reason he does deserve a new trial.

I'm becoming obsessed not only with this show, but podcasts in general- though not really crime dramas have added Strangers and The Moth to my listening schedule to help me get through the long, long week until Serial is back.

Last edited by LVBoPeep; 10-25-2014 at 02:53 PM.
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Old 10-25-2014, 04:06 PM
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Does anyone think Adnan didn't do it?
I'm leaning that direction.
I don't believe Jay at all. I don't think that the timeline or the motive that the police & prosecutors advanced adds up (in other words, if he did do it, I don't it think happened how/why they said he did it). I definitely have what I'd consider reasonable doubt as to his guilt.
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Old 10-25-2014, 04:13 PM
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There are weird holes—the phantom pay phone, the hit-and-miss cellphone data, the track coach who didn't take attendance at a mandatory practice ...
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Old 10-25-2014, 04:14 PM
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It would be easier for me to accept guilt if the prosecution's story was an act of passion rather than premeditated.
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Old 10-25-2014, 08:51 PM
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It would be easier for me to accept guilt if the prosecution's story was an act of passion rather than premeditated.
Why?

Either way, I am pretty confident he did it given the evidence we have so far for a number of reasons.
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Old 10-25-2014, 10:40 PM
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If Adnan didn't do it, doesn't that make Jay the prime suspect? He certainly seems like more of a fruitcake than Adnan.
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Old 10-26-2014, 06:51 AM
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Based on the information we've been given so far, I think things look very bad for Adnon.

1) As mentioned above, I simply don't believe that he would have no memory of what he was doing that day.

2) Jay knew where Hae's car was and Adnon was with Jay that day - both, IIRC, by his own hazily remembered account, because Stephanie testified she saw them together, and because of the phone call to the other friend which placed them together.

3) Based on the cell records, Adnon's cellphone was evidently with Jay for much of the day, corroborating his story. The cellphone was also in Leakin Park. Adnon has given no reason for why his phone was where it was.

4) The two high school girls testified that Adnon was going to try to get a ride after school with Hae; Adnon himself told the police that he had planned to do that.

There's probably more that I'm just blanking on. But there's also this: who else would have wanted to murder Hae? (Granted, there could be whole worlds of suspects that the show hasn't revealed to us yet.) We've been told that there was no sign Hae was raped before being murdered; she wasn't robbed (her car was abandoned); her current boyfriend had an apparently strong alibi; and there have been no mentions of other ex-boyfriends or enemies she may have had.

This is even less scientific, but I'll say it anyway: I just don't believe Adnon, the way he speaks. At least in the excerpts we've been allowed to hear, the way he talks about the murder often reminds me of the way children talk when they want to cover something up but don't want to technically lie about it, so instead they deflect the issue with legalistic word games. For example, he doesn't repeatedly and unequivocally say, "I did not do this;" instead he says things like, "Why would I do this? What motive would I have? How could that timeline hold up?" I just don't believe him.

I also thought it was strange to learn this week that they narrowed the murder down to those crucial 21 minutes simply based on the call they think Adnon made to Jay to tell him to come pick him up. How do they know it didn't happen slightly later? Maybe Jay was in on it and was there when the murder took place, later in the afternoon.

And as for Jay...I think it's significant that they have made no mention of where Jay is today or what he's up to. I suspect we're due for a twist - learning, perhaps, that Jay is in jail, too, for some other crime, or that he was murdered, or something like that.
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Old 10-26-2014, 08:01 AM
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Based on the information we've been given so far, I think things look very bad for Adnon.

It's Adnan
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Old 10-26-2014, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by brickbacon View Post
Why?
Because the premeditated murder doesn't fit in with anything else we know so far. There was no indication in Hae's diary that Adnan was stalking her or upsetting her. (That whole deal with his showing up at her overnight parties seems entirely innocent to me.)

Jay's story just doesn't make any sense to me and it doesn't fit with what anyone else was saying about Adnan's personality and behavior at the time.

Now if the allegation was that Hae did actually give Adnan a ride that day and they fought or something and the murder was unplanned—I could buy that much more easily given the circumstances. Maybe even accidental asphyxiation during rough sex.

But the whole story that Adnan planned it in advance just doesn't work for me—at this point anyway.
  #40  
Old 10-26-2014, 09:49 AM
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It's Adnan
Thanks
  #41  
Old 10-26-2014, 12:42 PM
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And as for Jay...I think it's significant that they have made no mention of where Jay is today or what he's up to. I suspect we're due for a twist - learning, perhaps, that Jay is in jail, too, for some other crime, or that he was murdered, or something like that.
That's my guess, too. His interviews are probably being done via prison phone, like Adnan's.
  #42  
Old 10-26-2014, 04:15 PM
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I think high school romances can veer towards mildly creepy obsession as teenagers figure out how relationships work. Even so, Hae didn't seem bothered by it and the friends didn't seem to feel that Adnan was a threat even if it was odd.
The podcast didn't really highlight everything written in the diary. Spoiler below:

SPOILER:
Adnan's first appeal was based in part because the following letter from Hae's to Adnan about their breakup was read to the jury.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hae
I'm really getting annoyed that this situation is going the way it is. At first I kind of wanted to make this easy for me and for you. You know people break up all the time. Your life is not going to end. You'll move on and I'll move on. But apparently you don't respect me enough to accept my decision. I really couldn't give damn [sic] about whatever you want to say. With the way things have been since 7:45 am this morning, now I'm more certain that I'm making the right choice. The more fuss you make, the more I'm determined to do what I gotta do. I really don't think I can be in a relationship like we had, not between us, but mostly about the stuff around us. I seriously did expect you to accept, although not understand. I'll be busy today, tomorrow, and probably till Thursday.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tangent View Post
That's my guess, too. His interviews are probably being done via prison phone, like Adnan's.
I have been reading the reddit threads that discuss some of this. I will spolier the answer in case you don't want to know.

SPOILER:
Jay is supposedly free and living in LA. He was charged as an accessory after the fact and given a 5-year suspended sentence and 2 years probation for this case. Over the past 15 years, he has been arrested a few times for relatively minor things like drug possession and sales, and for domestic violence incidents. Apparently, his FB page is public, although I have not seen it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
Because the premeditated murder doesn't fit in with anything else we know so far.
It does for the following reason. Hae and Adnan break up, yet he calls her 3 times the night before she disappears. Then, AFAICT, doesn't call her again at any point after she disappears. Clearly those calls, which he says were to give her his cell number, was to set things up for the next day. Otherwise, he would have given her his number in person one of the two days he saw her previously in school, or the following school day. There is also the "coincidence" that he got his cell phone only two days prior and that Jay says he'd mentioned killing Hae more then a week before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
Jay's story just doesn't make any sense to me and it doesn't fit with what anyone else was saying about Adnan's personality and behavior at the time.
It doesn't make sense because he is lying about his involvement, not because what he says didn't happen at all.

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Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
But the whole story that Adnan planned it in advance just doesn't work for me—at this point anyway.
Either way though, that doesn't really affect whether he is guilty. I think Adnan is guilty for the following reasons:

1. Generally speaking, criminals convicted in court are factually guilty. While that has nothing to do with Adnan specifically, I think it's wise to defer to a jury who listened to all the evidence rather than a few episdoes of a selectively edited, yet entertaining podcast. Plus, the idea that cops would generally trust a Black, drug-dealing liar (Jay) over a honor roll student like Adnan leads me to think there is plenty of other evidence they have.

2. He calls Hae the night before she disappears 3 times. He says he does this solely to give her his number, but that makes no sense for a variety of reasons. Look at the call log. He calls her at 11:27pm, 12:01am, and 12:35am. The only call that lasts long enough to have a conversation is the 12:35am call the day she disappears. Does it make any sense that he would think this information that he could have given her in class that day was so urgent that he needed to call her past midnight on a school day? Clearly, this call was more urgent and more substantive. My guess is he was either ensuring they would be alone to talk the next day, or to pry into her relationship with Don whom she saw earlier that night.

3. As Rogers01 brought up before, the idea that he would have no recollection of that day is really strange for a few reasons. First, it's during Ramadan, and he would have had duties and things to do. Second, it's his best friend Stephanie's birthday. Third, his ex-girlfriend disappears. Now the last part might be excusable given he supposedly didn't realize she was really missing that day, but the detective called him that night around 6:30pm to alert him to the fact that Hae was missing. You'd think he would remember that day if for no other reason than a detective calling you to ask about your ex. Also note that he doesn't call or page Hae after getting that call from the detective. Given he tried to reach out to her 3 times 16 hours prior, you'd think he could have called to see where she was after getting that call.

4. Adnan refuses to unequivocally say he didn't do it or to declaratively say where he was, and what he actually was doing. Instead he just speculates on what he likely did, or says there is no proof he did what he is accused of. His complete lack of outrage toward Jay, the guy he alleges set him up, also seems pretty calculated. Adnan calling Jay "pathetic" in court is telling as well.

5. Adnan has lied several times about things. For example, he says he barely knows Jay, yet Will, a track teammate, says Jay picking up Adnan from practice was a regular occurrence. Adnan is also so concerned that this guy he doesn't know that well gets his gf a present that lends him his car and phone? Then he hangs out with him later that day for several hours?

Most important is the issue with the ride. He first tells the detective who calls him that day that he asked her for a ride, but that he missed her. Then he later says he would not have asked or a ride because he had a car. Now, I think Adnan said he asked her for a ride because he knew others like Becky heard him ask. It was only later that he decided playing dumb about everything was his best defense.

6. Two people were likely involved because they had to ditch the car, etc. We know Jay is one because he knows how she died and where the car was. Adnan is the only other guy who you could reasonable argue would have motive, means, and ability to commit the crime with Jay. Hae would not have agreed to meet with Jay, a person she doesn't like or really know, alone. Given she didn't show up to pickup her cousin right after school, we know she disappeared immediately after school. I doubt she would have stopped for any reason unless it was intended to be quick, and it was for someone she cared about.

7. Given the above, if Jay intended to frame Adnan, he would have had to do a number of unlikely things like:

a. Convince Adnan to come up with the idea to lend him his car and cell phone (that he got only two days prior).
b. Somehow contact Hae to convince her to meet up somewhere alone where he could commit the crime.
c. Still manage to both get a present for Stephanie, and kill Hae before having to pick Adnan from practice.
d. Ensure that Adnan didn't have an airtight alibi for the time period in which Hae went missing.
e. Tell Jen that night that Adnan killed Hae, but convince her to not say anything for a month.
f. Somehow end up in Leaking Park later that night (backed by cell records) with Adnan, while Adnan was completely unaware of where they were (Adnan claimed he doesn't know where Leakin Park is).

By almost all accounts, Jay is a fuck up. The idea that he could pull all that off is just no that believable. That not even considering the fact he had no reason to do it.

8. According to the call log, the person will the cell phone called both Nisha (Adnan's friend) and his voicemail between the hours of 3:30 and 5:30, when Adnan says he was at track practice and w/o his cell phone. In between those calls which Adnan likely made, we have calls to Jen and Patrick which Jay likely made. The clear inference here being that Jay and Adnan were together during that time period.

Last edited by brickbacon; 10-26-2014 at 04:16 PM.
  #43  
Old 10-26-2014, 05:23 PM
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Okay I am going to have to avoid reading this thread from now on. Even with spoiler tags, this is too risky.
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  #44  
Old 10-26-2014, 05:41 PM
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Interesting and well put, brickbacon.
  #45  
Old 10-26-2014, 08:10 PM
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Hae's family is to blame


***spoiler alert-New listener, turned on by my son today, listened to all podcasts so far. Theory is that Adnand as a Muslim, is the scapegoat, Jay is the stupid, accessible mouthpiece, and Hae is the victim of a dishonored father. Hae was in love with a boy she should not have loved; he was keeping the relationship quiet, because he wasn't supposed to be with girls at all...Jay was a fringe character in their lives, and vulnerable because he was a low level weed dealer...these were the perfect characters to play in the drama that would unfold regarding the daughter, Hae's, untimely death. We know NOTHING about Hae's family. We have NO idea where Jay is present day. What we DO know is that the time line barely fits, that neither Admand nor Jay have a motive to kill Hae, but in my estimation, her family does; for dishonoring them by having sex with a boy and not meeting with their expectations of her. If you review everything so far, the testimony and timelines, no player in our story has a MURDEROUS motive......think hard. More later.
  #46  
Old 10-26-2014, 08:16 PM
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okay now I have to unsubscribe from this thread.
  #47  
Old 10-27-2014, 01:42 AM
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Yeah, me too.
  #48  
Old 10-27-2014, 02:28 AM
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It is usually the ex


Yesterday I listened to the first five episodes of Serial and I am thoroughly hooked. Can’t wait for Thursday, but I suspect we won’t ever get any closer to the truth.

At this point this is what I think:
1) Adnan is guilty
2) Jay is more complicit than he is letting on
3) the prosecution’s timeline is wrong
4) Asia probably did see Adnan in the library at the time in question

What I really want to know is what time Hae was meant to pick up her cousin. Was it 2:45 or 3:15 or 4:20? Everyone is fixated on 2:36 because of the unattributed cell phone call but what if she didn’t go missing until later? What if Adnan was in the library at about 2:36?

But that raises even more questions…Jay is in this up to his eyeballs since he knew where Hae’s car was so that fact can’t be ignored. If Jay did it how and why? How did he intercept Hae? If Adnan was in the library but still involved in the murder how did he get to wherever Hae was kidnaped? Did Jay kidnap her and Adnan strangle her?

And still the motive…i don’t buy the prosecution’s double life theory but I can imagine the crazy emotions and passions of teenagers. I can believe the jealousy thing even though he never showed it. Obviously Adnan is capable of living two lives; he has done it for years. Could he be that good at manipulating his outward emotions that he was angry and jealous inside but never show it to his friends?

Finally, the cell towers. Rabia has a detailed map on her blog. As unreliable as it is there is one thing that stands out...only three calls that day went through the Leakin Park tower and two of those were at the time they were supposed to be burying the body (unless I am missing something). That looks really bad and it is hard to make yourself ignore that info.

I also wish we could hear from the detectives. As Sarah said, these guys are no fools, especially in a city like Baltimore. They have heard it all and seen it all. At the same time they are under tremendous pressure to clear cases so when they get an ex-boyfriend w/ no firm alibi they are going to go after that like bloodhounds (inconvenient facts be damned).

I feel so bad for all the families involved having this dragged up again. I’m sure Hae’s family isn’t too happy about this series. I just hope that Jay or Adnan come forward w/ more details before her parents pass away so they can rest in peace.
  #49  
Old 10-27-2014, 04:13 AM
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***spoiler alert...
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Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
okay now I have to unsubscribe from this thread.
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Originally Posted by Tangent View Post
Yeah, me too.
For what it's worth, there were not actually any spoilers in that post, just speculation/theorizing based on the information we've already heard this far in.

Though on the topic of kittykatband's speculation... It is interesting that we haven't heard anything about Hae's family to this point. It's an understandable but annoying feature of this podcast that as we're trying to figure things out week-by-week we have no idea what information they're holding back from us. Here we're all focusing on Adnan and Jay, but how do we know that in a future episode we won't learn that, say, Hae's father was abusive and his whereabouts that day are unknown? Or that there was a serial strangler at lose in Baltimore around this time?
  #50  
Old 10-27-2014, 09:52 AM
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I've been listening, find it entertaining and will continue listening but don't find it terribly INTERESTING because Adnan seems to be obviously guilty for alot of the reasons listed in this thread and there is really no mystery other than "How involved was Jay in the murder?".

Adnan sounds completely ambivalent about the whole thing in his phone interviews, which may be due to his decade in prison, I don't know. When the narrator mentioned she had found Anna or whoever the library girl was he kind of sat in silence, his muted reaction clearly surprising her, and he struggled to come up with words to redirect the conversation. This was a girl who could have been his alibi and he was like "Oh...umm...really?" He's very matter of fact about things. In fact, most of the people interviewed seem to be pretty giggly considering they are talking about a murdered classmate/acquaintance.

If anything Jay was a full fledged accomplice in the actual murder. There is really no mystery about Adnan. He can't actually accuse Jay of helping him because in the process he will have to admit he did it and knows what happened etc...

I think they made a poor choice for the first mystery story for this podcast. This would be a 20minute segment on Dateline NBC because it's such a run-of-the-mill scorned lover type case.

Last edited by Cubsfan; 10-27-2014 at 09:53 AM.
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