Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 09-20-2019, 05:15 PM
Odesio is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 11,577
Your wages will go down. You won't just be getting unskilled laborers you'll be getting people with degrees flying in from India, China, Philippines, and South Korean who will suddenly be competing for American jobs. And you'll likely see skilled laborers coming into the country to become plumbers and mechanics.
__________________
I can be found in history's unmarked grave of discarded ideologies.
  #52  
Old 09-20-2019, 05:21 PM
begbert2 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Idaho
Posts: 13,293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Odesio View Post
Your wages will go down. You won't just be getting unskilled laborers you'll be getting people with degrees flying in from India, China, Philippines, and South Korean who will suddenly be competing for American jobs. And you'll likely see skilled laborers coming into the country to become plumbers and mechanics.
This will depend to some degree on what field you're working in, of course. (And whether you're making minimum wage, obviously.)

Presuming the foreign talent is coming here because we have higher wages, this would also put pressure on the other countries you mention to raise their wages too, lest the US market steal all their talent. One wonders what they'd think of this.
  #53  
Old 09-20-2019, 06:15 PM
Der Trihs's Avatar
Der Trihs is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: California
Posts: 38,890
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
If open borders is such a boon to a nation's economy, why haven't any or many other Western nations done so already? It would be an economic no-brainer, no?
Because bigotry is far more important to most people than profit. Hundreds of millions of people in the West would prefer to starve under a bridge rather than let "those people" in.
  #54  
Old 09-20-2019, 07:01 PM
begbert2 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Idaho
Posts: 13,293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Trihs View Post
Because bigotry is far more important to most people than profit. Hundreds of millions of people in the West would prefer to starve under a bridge rather than let "those people" in.
Wellll, it's more complicated than that. Even with all bigotry aside, different countries have different standards of living, and different valuations for different commodities. (Like gasoline! And health care!) Letting cheap labor flow in would mostly help america because we have lots of jobs that people here are too stuck up to do, and the current efforts to crush immigration are hurting those industries. But as has been noted, if borders stayed open it would allow an external workforce to come flowing in to compete for our jobs - without letting us flow into their country to do the same. This would first show itself in the terrible jobs we don't want, but would start to effect other job markets over time, as wages started to be dragged down towards those countries whose people are visiting us. (It would have to be down or they wouldn't come here.)

The different valuation thing can put undue burden on, say, canadian health care if everyone in the states comes up, gets health care, and goes back home - those using the system wouldn't be paying taxes into it, draining the country's coffers. If that becomes a major thing, it could, well, become a major thing.
  #55  
Old 09-20-2019, 07:03 PM
JohnT's Avatar
JohnT is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 23,627
Is there anything in the current tax code that says you can't decide to, say, different tax rates on immigrants? Equal protection or something?
  #56  
Old 09-20-2019, 11:36 PM
Der Trihs's Avatar
Der Trihs is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: California
Posts: 38,890
Quote:
Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post
But as has been noted, if borders stayed open it would allow an external workforce to come flowing in to compete for our jobs - without letting us flow into their country to do the same. This would first show itself in the terrible jobs we don't want, but would start to effect other job markets over time, as wages started to be dragged down towards those countries whose people are visiting us.
Not really, since those people would be boosting the economy by being here and consuming. Real life doesn't work like the xenophobes want it to.
  #57  
Old 09-21-2019, 12:02 AM
madsircool is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 7,662
Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Trihs View Post
Not really, since those people would be boosting the economy by being here and consuming. Real life doesn't work like the xenophobes want it to.
And depressing wages; adding to pollution, water depletion and loss of open land. The 21st century economy needs fewer blue collar workers, not more. Now if these were STEM immigrants...
  #58  
Old 09-21-2019, 12:50 AM
squeegee's Avatar
squeegee is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Aptos CA
Posts: 8,830
Quote:
Originally Posted by madsircool View Post
And depressing wages; adding to pollution, water depletion and loss of open land. The 21st century economy needs fewer blue collar workers, not more. Now if these were STEM immigrants...
If they were STEM, they'd still be "adding to pollution, water depletion and loss of open land." Are STEM folk immune from having a carbon footprint, contributing to crowding or polluting?
  #59  
Old 09-21-2019, 01:58 AM
madsircool is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 7,662
Quote:
Originally Posted by squeegee View Post
If they were STEM, they'd still be "adding to pollution, water depletion and loss of open land." Are STEM folk immune from having a carbon footprint, contributing to crowding or polluting?
STEM folk are worth the pain. Adding millions onto the welfare rolls is moronic and will lower the standard of living to those already here. We have learned nothing from our failed immigration policy of the last fifty years. Smart immigration policy leads to a far better immigrant experience and immigrant acceptance.
  #60  
Old 09-21-2019, 09:59 PM
Odesio is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 11,577
Quote:
Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post
This will depend to some degree on what field you're working in, of course. (And whether you're making minimum wage, obviously.)
Legal immigrants in the form of h1b visa holders depress the wages of American IT/IS workers by about 4% by some estimates. To hire an h1b visa holder, the company needs to jump through a lot of hoops to demonstrate that they can't find an American (or someone already authorized to work in the US) in addition to paying fees. Assuming the government doesn't ask for a request for more evidence, that is additional proof that the job requires a college degree and an American can't be found to fill the position, we're looking at at least $6,000 dollars and that doesn't include the time HR or some other employee has to spend gathering the right documentation. It might be $12,000 or more once you factor in the cost of the RFE. And that's assuming the employee gets through the lottery which is only a 1 in 3 chance.

Now imagine those barriers are gone. IT/IS from South Korea, India, and China have unrestricted access to work in the US. That's going to depress the wages of American workers. And you won't just see those foreign workers coming for the jobs that require a great deal of education. They'll also be coming for many other jobs.


Quote:
Presuming the foreign talent is coming here because we have higher wages, this would also put pressure on the other countries you mention to raise their wages too, lest the US market steal all their talent. One wonders what they'd think of this.
Why isn't that happening now? Currently we get many talented people from South Korea, China, and India especially. And if you think those countries might raise their wages to keep their talent don't you think our employers might lower their wages because more talent is available on the local market?
__________________
I can be found in history's unmarked grave of discarded ideologies.
  #61  
Old 09-22-2019, 12:03 AM
octopus's Avatar
octopus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 9,000
Quote:
Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post
Eliminate it? I can think of no better way eradicate the lower middle class. And the upper lower class. It would cause the market to settle at the price that the least demanding people will pay, for any and every unskilled and low-skilled position. Those people, for the most part, won't be white.

And seriously, you can't combat unemployment that way - it won't cause *that* many more jobs to open up, since no matter how cheap it to hire them is you don't need fifty servants/slaves unless you run a farm/plantation. Which means that you won't reduce unemployment; you'll just change who's hired, and whether they can afford housing.
You realize that with global trade that already happens?

Last edited by octopus; 09-22-2019 at 12:03 AM.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:54 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017