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Old 09-14-2019, 02:18 PM
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Going to permanent Daylight Saving Time


Oregon has passed a law this year saying that if our neighbors to the north and south change to permanent Daylight Saving Time, we will too. Washington has passed a similar law and California is expected to do the same. Unfortunately, California probably won't be doing so this year, but perhaps next. But there are other states that have passed laws to do it, such as Florida.

But this change has to be approved by Congress. Federal law says states can either do DST for part of the year or Standard Time for the entire year. So Congress has to amend that law to allow permanent DST. What are the chances of that happening?
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Old 09-14-2019, 02:40 PM
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Maybe I’m just dense, but I don’t see the point. Why not just stay on Standard Time?
Change business hours if you want.
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Old 09-14-2019, 02:53 PM
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Is there an advantage to year-round DST (which I guess would be Mountain Standard Time) vs. year-round ST for the western region?
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Old 09-14-2019, 03:04 PM
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Maybe I’m just dense, but I don’t see the point. Why not just stay on Standard Time?
Change business hours if you want.
Unless every organization changes simultaneously, doing so unilaterally will disrupt peoples lives having to figure out a new schedule to accommodate differing hours.

Easier to just have everyone switch at once.
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Old 09-14-2019, 03:25 PM
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But this change has to be approved by Congress. Federal law says states can either do DST for part of the year or Standard Time for the entire year. So Congress has to amend that law to allow permanent DST. What are the chances of that happening?
I mean, what are the consequences if the state chooses not to follow the law? There's marijuana everywhere, seemingly, for example…
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Old 09-14-2019, 03:29 PM
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There's marijuana everywhere, seemingly
Yeah, you can leave out "seemingly," at least for the western part of the state.
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Old 09-14-2019, 03:41 PM
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Daylight Saving Time is when we lose an hour. If we stayed on DST permanently, we'd never get that lost hour back. We're always waking up an hour too early. I want my hour back, dammit!
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Old 09-14-2019, 03:42 PM
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What are the chances of that happening?
Trump supports the change if they can get a bill through Congress while he's still President.
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Old 09-14-2019, 03:48 PM
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Daylight Saving Time is when we lose an hour. If we stayed on DST permanently, we'd never get that lost hour back. We're always waking up an hour too early. I want my hour back, dammit!
As do I. I take to standard time from the get go. DST kicks my ass for 3 or 4 days.

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Trump supports the change if they can get a bill through Congress while he's still President.
Figures he'd be behind any workaholic-friendly measure.

"Sunshine Protection Act". Sheesh!

Last edited by BrickBat; 09-14-2019 at 03:49 PM.
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Old 09-14-2019, 04:03 PM
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I don't get the hate for DST, esp. for N. states like Washington.

People have no idea how early darkness sets in during winter in Washington with year-round DST. No idea.

This will not last long.

It's all like out of some sort of premium cable show mocking politicians.
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Old 09-14-2019, 04:24 PM
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I get the impression that some people think DST gives you an extra hour of daylight.

It's not extra; it just happens at a different time of day.

Which can be useful in the summer. But if it's already going to be dark when I get out of work anyway, can I at least not have it be dark when I go in to work, too?
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Old 09-14-2019, 04:26 PM
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I don't get the hate for DST, esp. for N. states like Washington.

People have no idea how early darkness sets in during winter in Washington with year-round DST. No idea.
Actually, it's not that the sun will set earlier if there's DST in the wintertime (in fact, it's the opposite); it's that the mornings will be dark.

As per this page on TimeAndDate.com for Seattle, for example, with the current DST system (i.e., no DST in the winter months), on December 25th (one of the shortest days of the year), sunrise is at 7:56am, and sunset is at 4:22pm.

If DST were year-round, sunrise in Seattle on December 25th would not be until 8:56am, while sunset would be at 5:22pm.

The US went to year-round DST for a year or so in the mid 1970s, during the first oil crisis, with the thinking being that it might help save energy. People in the northern half of the U.S. were very upset about their kids having to leave for school in the dark, and that was at least one reason why the idea was quickly scrapped.

Last edited by kenobi 65; 09-14-2019 at 04:31 PM.
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Old 09-14-2019, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Thudlow Boink View Post
Daylight Saving Time is when we lose an hour. If we stayed on DST permanently, we'd never get that lost hour back. We're always waking up an hour too early. I want my hour back, dammit!
The real problem is that ever since they made DST longer than standard time, there's been an extra accumulation of saved daylight. I've got boxes of the stuff in the attic, and you can't even give it away. If we go to saving daylight ALL THE TIME, where are we going to put it all?

Last edited by TimeWinder; 09-14-2019 at 04:30 PM.
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Old 09-14-2019, 04:35 PM
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Years ago, I took a poll of my coworkers, asking if we had to go to either all Daylight or all Standard time, which they'd want. The overwhelming preference was for Daylight time. It was a small company, so there were only about a dozen people to ask, so likely not scientific. But I'd be surprised if the general populace didn't agree.
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Old 09-14-2019, 05:51 PM
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I wish we would go to year round standard time. I like sunlight in the morning it makes life so much easier and I don't really care if i have lights on when I come home from work.
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Old 09-14-2019, 06:16 PM
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Maybe I'm dense - why doesn't the law just abolish DST and shift your time zone over one band? Which, if I'm reading this chart correctly would take you from GMT-7 to GMT-8, along with western Alaska

Is there a Federal law about that?
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Last edited by Aspidistra; 09-14-2019 at 06:17 PM.
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Old 09-14-2019, 06:45 PM
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But if it's already going to be dark when I get out of work anyway, can I at least not have it be dark when I go in to work, too?
But I work second shift and am rarely even awake before 9 a.m. - more darkness in the morning sounds glorious. I'm thinking this is all on you for working your so-called "normal hours" like a crazy person .

That goes for the cows as well. We just need to selectively breed for lazy animals that sleep in so the farmers can as well.
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Old 09-14-2019, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by dtilque View Post
Years ago, I took a poll of my coworkers, asking if we had to go to either all Daylight or all Standard time, which they'd want. The overwhelming preference was for Daylight time. It was a small company, so there were only about a dozen people to ask, so likely not scientific. But I'd be surprised if the general populace didn't agree.
Possibly so; most of the dislike for DST today, at least in the US, centers around the disruptions when the clocks change forward and back, not for DST itself.

That said, most Americans also probably don't realize (or internalize) that year-round DST would lead to the sun coming up so late in the morning in the winter months (at least in the northern states). So, it's easy to say "yeah, I wish DST were year round" now, but after a winter spent in DST, they might well change their minds.
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Old 09-14-2019, 07:46 PM
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I live in Arizona, which does not observe DST (except for the Navajo Nation), and I don't miss it at all.
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Old 09-14-2019, 08:02 PM
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I don't really care which one is chosen, because there are pros and cons to both; just pick one and stick with it.
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Old 09-14-2019, 08:25 PM
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It seems very odd to permanently change the clocks so that they are roughly an hour off from the solar time. Like said above, change the business hours if that’s what people want, and if they don’t want that then why the hell do they think they want permanent DST? They are functionally the same thing.
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Old 09-14-2019, 08:59 PM
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DUMB!!! You can't alter the amount of daylight in the winter.

With DST, January sunrise in Seattle, Detroit, Indianapolis, Omaha, occurs 8:45-9:00. In Williston, ND, sunrise would not occur until 9:45.

With DST all year, the kiddies will be walking to school in the dark. If you shift school end times, then the kids lose an hour of after-school daylight ALL YEAR. There would be little play time between school and supper.

DST should coincide with Europe: Last Sunday in March to last Sunday in October.
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Old 09-14-2019, 09:22 PM
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I live in the Seattle area. In the heart of winter, seattle has 8 hours & 25 minutes from sun rise to sun set and about 16 hours at the Summer Solstice. To be honest, I could care less if the winter is sunrise at 8am and sunset at 4:25, or if sunrise is 9am and sunset at 5:25. Either way it's dark when I leave home to work and dark when I come back home from about Nov to Jan.

I would however appreciate not needing to reset the clocks twice a year. I see zero advantage with the spring forward/fall back nonsense, and the disadvantage is the inconvenience 2x per year to adjust. I also work the China timezone, and China doesn't have DST (they tried for 2 years back in the 1980's and concluded there were no real benefits). I guess there is a slight advantage with DST as China workday overlap with the West Coast worksay is an additional hour, but this doesn't matter to me personally as either way I'm on with China well into the evening.

IMHO, pick either standard or DST and then keep it. There are no real benefits to spring forward/fall back in the modern world, and it's highly debatable there were any benefits in WW2.
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Old 09-14-2019, 09:37 PM
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With DST, January sunrise in Seattle, Detroit, Indianapolis, Omaha, occurs 8:45-9:00. In Williston, ND, sunrise would not occur until 9:45.

With DST all year, the kiddies will be walking to school in the dark. If you shift school end times, then the kids lose an hour of after-school daylight ALL YEAR. There would be little play time between school and supper.
according to this link, Williston ND (maybe the northernist point of the US?), has 8 hours and 8 minutes between sunrise and sunset on the Winter Solstice, or 17 more minutes of darkness than Seattle.

If you want kiddos to walk to school in daylight in Winter, then there needs to be a 2 hour savings time difference so it's light in the morning. Otherwise, you're solving for a problem a one hour "savings" won't fix.
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Old 09-14-2019, 10:18 PM
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Why don't they simply change their time zone to MST year round?
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Old 09-14-2019, 10:50 PM
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Why don't they simply change their time zone to MST year round?
I don't know for sure, but it's likely Congress would have to pass a law moving the time zone boundary.

If you read down far enough in that article I linked to in the OP, the California legislator leading the issue may change it to going to all Standard time, instead of Daylight. That would not require a new law from Congress.

If this either option does go into effect, I expect the two BCs1 would scramble to go along. They're just too interdependent economically with the US West Coast to be out of sync time-wise.



1 Baja California and British Columbia.
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Old 09-14-2019, 11:16 PM
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according to this link, Williston ND (maybe the northernist point of the US?), has 8 hours and 8 minutes between sunrise and sunset on the Winter Solstice, or 17 more minutes of darkness than Seattle.

If you want kiddos to walk to school in daylight in Winter, then there needs to be a 2 hour savings time difference so it's light in the morning. Otherwise, you're solving for a problem a one hour "savings" won't fix.
I don't know about Seattle but here is Colorado school seems to start about 830 for elementary school, 800 for middle school and 730 for high school. We have sunrise at 720 on december 25th so everyone starts school in daylight. It seems even up north the little kids would go to school in sunlight on standard time. That really is a benefit for parents.
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Old 09-14-2019, 11:26 PM
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It seems very odd to permanently change the clocks so that they are roughly an hour off from the solar time.
Why is it odd? Clocks exist solely for our convenience. The only reason for them to match up with the sun at all is that we find that convenient.

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Like said above, change the business hours if that’s what people want, and if they don’t want that then why the hell do they think they want permanent DST? They are functionally the same thing.
They aren't functionally the same at all. Business hours are completely decentralized and changed by individual whim. DST is coordinated centrally. Those are very different, even if they could theoretically lead to the same thing.

It's why, say, a city council can say that trick-or-treat is on October 29th this year, and people mostly follow it, even if they never would have changed the date through individual actions.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 09-14-2019 at 11:31 PM.
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Old 09-15-2019, 04:35 AM
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Why is it odd? Clocks exist solely for our convenience. The only reason for them to match up with the sun at all is that we find that convenient.
I'd say the opposite. The only reason we don't match it to the sun exactly is for convenience.



Quote:
They aren't functionally the same at all. Business hours are completely decentralized and changed by individual whim. DST is coordinated centrally. Those are very different, even if they could theoretically lead to the same thing.
Of course it's the same. DST is just people saying "hey, let's all go to work an hour earlier and finish an hour earlier for the summer!"

"But that would be awkward, we'd have to rewrite the opening hours and everything on our doors and websites."

"Alright, what if we just changed the clocks?"

"Ok, fine"

That makes sense for a temporary change, but if you permanently want people to go to work an hour earlier and finish an hour earlier, why not just fess up and say that's what you're doing? Personally I think it would feel better, psychologically, to finish work at 4pm and still have it get dark at 7pm or whatever, instead of finishing at "5pm" and it getting dark at "8pm".
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Old 09-15-2019, 05:12 AM
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DST should coincide with Europe: Last Sunday in March to last Sunday in October.
Nah, that daylight saving nonsense is over in Europe (except for the two-year transition period). It's about time.
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Old 09-15-2019, 09:15 PM
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I don't get the hate for DST, esp. for N. states like Washington.

People have no idea how early darkness sets in during winter in Washington with year-round DST. No idea.
Uh...If we didn't leave daylight savings time for standard, it would get dark around 5pm in December and January, not 4pm here. I can't imagine it'd be much different in Washington state.

I'm pro ditch standard time. If it's only from November to March now it's hardly "standard", is it?
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Old 09-15-2019, 10:56 PM
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Back when I had the office job I loathed going to standard time. It meant that I only had the sun in the morning when I hated it most, and I always went home in the dark. My office had zero windows, so for standard time I only saw the sun for 20 minutes each day. So I hated it while probably becoming vitamin deficient. Made me miserable. I love seeing the sun or sunset driving home from work, though, so DST is my chosen time.

The kids have to get up way too early for school anyway. If everyone's so worried about school in the dark, make school start at a sensible later time that science agrees is better for them anyway. I remember as a kid I had to wake up at 6 am to eat, dress, and still make the bus (it was a LONG bus ride). I was a barely functional zombie every day because of it.
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Old 09-15-2019, 11:20 PM
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Russia had permanent "summer" time for a couple of years, but people apparently really didn't like it. In Europe, member states are now supposed to pick their own time zone to stick with; not sure what has been settled at this time. Some countries like France were already in the "wrong" time zone.
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Old 09-16-2019, 12:06 AM
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Oregon wouldn't piss if their pants were on fire unless California told them it was okay. And yet they fucked up the entirety of college football uniforms in just a season or two.

Fuck them. And their lazy assed gas station attendants.

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Old 09-16-2019, 02:18 AM
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I remember when Western Australia did a DST trial for a year. Living in the tropics it was hopeless. We tended to do things based on how hot it was not what the clock said. When we went to DST we ended up walking the dog an hour later in the evening once it had cooled down, went to bed an hour later, but still had to get up for work at the same time. So we were losing an hour of sleep every night.
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Old 09-16-2019, 08:47 AM
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I couldn't care less about having more daylight in the morning. I mean what are ya gonna do, mow your yard before going to work?

Much rather have it in the afternoon when you can use it (confession time, I get off work at 3:30, so I can actually use it - plow snow, walk dogs).
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Old 09-16-2019, 03:51 PM
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Sorry about my mistake. I had originally written it coming another way and then changed ... some of it.

But still but are not going to like it once they actually experience it.
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Old 09-16-2019, 06:14 PM
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I don't care if we in New England stay on DST or EST year round. As stated multiple times, just pick one and stick with it. It's the change I have trouble with not the actual hours. We're so far east we probably should be on Canadian Atlantic time anyway.

My personal preference, which would piss off everyone, is to piss off everyone and instead of falling back an hour in a month, fall back half an hour and stay put (or spring forward just 30 minutes in the spring and never change again). It splits the difference between DST and EST, but isn't a huge difference from Atlantic or the rest of Eastern. However we'd always be off and never in sync with anyone else.
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Old 09-18-2019, 05:31 PM
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Speaking as a programmer... Let's get rid of DST altogether.
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Old 09-19-2019, 09:26 AM
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Speaking as someone who spends nearly 6 months of the year going to work and coming home in the dark. Fuck DST entirely.
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Old 09-19-2019, 10:17 AM
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If we could start with not setting the clocks back this fall that would be terrific to me. I do not like it getting dark at 5pm eventually.
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Old 09-19-2019, 10:51 AM
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As a Floridian, fuck DST from here too.
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Old 09-20-2019, 09:17 AM
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Further to the point, DST is a waste in the summer months here as well. we get 16 hours of daylight by June, sunrise roughly at 5 AM and sunset by 9 PM. By mid-summer it's even longer. Bah!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daytim...ear_cmglee.svg
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Old 09-20-2019, 02:07 PM
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Count me as another who would rather have my sunlight in the evening as opposed to the morning. Wonder if this largely breaks down to a "morning person" vs. "night owl" issue?
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