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  #51  
Old 09-17-2019, 09:00 AM
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I ordered an Old Fashioned in a hotel bar in the boonies. There was consternation behind the bar and eventually a drink was produced. The glass had much more fluid than I expected and I asked the server (she had also made the drink) what was in it. She confirmed that there was a shot of soda water. I looked it up later and found that, yes, a variation of an Old Fashioned will have seltzer or soda water. Schooled.

Which is what pulykamell described.

Bartenders don't like to muddle drinks because it takes time. Embury's classic book "The Fine Art of Mixing Drinks" says that preparing a proper Old Fashioned may take up to 20 minutes. So muddling fruit and a sugar cube is replaced by simple syrup and an orange slice.

I like to muddle the orange peel because I like the flavour. Be sure to not have any pith left in the peel since it is bitter. An orange twist that exudes oils over the finished drink is fine, but it's hard to get an orange fresh enough here for that to work properly.
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Old 09-17-2019, 09:03 AM
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The Wisconsin Old Fashioned, though, is a little bit of a different drink than everywhere else in the States.
To clarify a bit.

The Old Fashioned is pretty much the official state cocktali of Wisconsin. I don't think you're even allowed to tend bar if you don't know how to make one. That said, outside of Wisconsin, in my experience, an Old Fashioned is a drink based on rye whiskey (sometimes bourbon) and served with a splash of water in it (among the other ingredients, like bitters & sugar or simple syrup). In Wisconsin, it's just as likely to be made with brandy and is often served with a splash of 7-Up, Squirt, 50/50. There's a whole lingo to it. "Brandy old fashioned sweet," for example, means the base liquor is brandy, and a splash of 7-up is the mixer. Whiskey old fashioned sour would mean Squirt or 50/50 as the mixer (although I have also had it made in Wisconsin with sour mix. Yuck). A "whiskey old fashioned press" would be a mix of 7-Up and selzter water. And then you can get it "soda," which means seltzer only.

Now, outside of Wisconsin, the drink isn't as standard, but at any good cocktail bar (not just the corner joint), they should know what it is (and, like Athena said, it is rather a fashionable drink), although the terminology of ordering something like a "brandy old fashioned press" would be unlikely to be known outside of Wisconsin.

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  #53  
Old 09-17-2019, 10:04 AM
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Seriously? Old Fashioneds are the Hip Drink nowadays, they're everywhere. That's not to say they're done well everywhere, but I can't remember the last time I was at a bar that didn't have some form of Old Fashioned. Heck, I stayed at a Marriott Courtyard during a work trip last week, and their little "bistro" thing (a mini restaurant/bar in the lobby) had Old Fashioneds. They were horrible, but they had them.
My WAG is that they are popular because Don Draper of Mad Men favored them.

A quick Google search suggests I might be on to something.

https://medium.com/track-and-food/ma...l-b766984c0c00

https://www.esquire.com/food-drink/d...ioned-7492773/

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/21/d...of-choice.html
  #54  
Old 09-17-2019, 10:32 AM
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My WAG is that they are popular because Don Draper of Mad Men favored them.
Sure. My recollection also is that around mid-2000, right around the time of Mad Men, but just before, mixology and a return to discovering classic cocktails, riffing on them with new ingredients and stuff like homemade bitters, was ramping up as well. Mad Men did happen to coincide with this new wave of bartending, and I'm sure its popularity has revived many a classic cocktail (including the old fashioned.)
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Old 09-17-2019, 10:43 AM
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Sure. My recollection also is that around mid-2000, right around the time of Mad Men, but just before, mixology and a return to discovering classic cocktails, riffing on them with new ingredients and stuff like homemade bitters, was ramping up as well. Mad Men did happen to coincide with this new wave of bartending, and I'm sure its popularity has revived many a classic cocktail (including the old fashioned.)

I'm thrilled to have the classics, Manhattan and Boulevardier, back in style.
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  #56  
Old 09-17-2019, 10:53 AM
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Cool book! I have a small collection of old cocktail "recipe" books. I like the history of it and the ties to the Prohibition Era.

Does anyone know why a Blind Pig was called that? Was it a comment on the quality of the hooch?
As I understand it, in years gone by, there were various rules put in place to limit drinking- one might have been that you couldn't run a bar or something like that.

So there were entrepreneurial sorts who'd sell tickets to see a blind pig, and give out complementary booze as part of the show, thus circumventing whatever laws were in place.
  #57  
Old 09-17-2019, 11:02 AM
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My biggest beef with Old Fashioneds nowadays is the hip bartenders who scorn at the muddled fruit version, and try to school me on "these are the REAL Old Fashioneds." Dude, I've been drinking them since before you were born. The muddled fruit version has been around & popular for 50+ years. Yes, the other version is good as well, but this isn't a zero-sum game and a muddled OF can be a wonderful thing if made correctly.

That's kind of funny... history does repeat itself. As David Wondrich relates in "Imbibe", the original cocktail (as a class of drink) was just a little water, sugar, booze and bitters- basically a very spare Old Fashioned if you used bourbon.

Over time, bartenders started muddling fruit, adding stuff like vermouth, orange curacao, absinthe and maraschino liqueur. Eventually crusty old types began requesting 'old-fashioned' cocktails, meaning without all the additional stuff thrown in. That's where the name comes from- people wanting the "old fashioned" type of cocktail.

So in a sense, the modern muddled-fruit Old Fashioned is kind of a throwback to the very drinks that in a sense, spawned the "Old Fashioned". I say "in a sense", because the drink itself never changed.

I'm not going to be pedantic; there's a fair amount of room in cocktail nomenclature to allow for muddled fruit while keeping the name; at this point, BOTH are old fashioned.
  #58  
Old 09-17-2019, 12:54 PM
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I like ordering from the cocktail menu. If they don't have one I'll just get a beer or a straight bourbon. Otherwise it seems I invariably stump the twelve-year-old bartender or they're out of an exotic ingredient like limes.

I'd really never order a vermouth-based drink in a bar that doesn't serve a lot of them, because they probably keep their vermouth on the shelf at room temperature where it oxidizes and tastes like ass after a few days.

It's a sad state of affairs, but unless a place is super old-school or staffed by hipsters in Phineas mustaches, your chances of getting a good cocktail anymore are pretty slim.
  #59  
Old 09-17-2019, 01:02 PM
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Honestly I pretty much only order cocktails if they feature it, because I assume they know how to make it.
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Old 09-17-2019, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by carrps View Post
Cool book! I have a small collection of old cocktail "recipe" books. I like the history of it and the ties to the Prohibition Era.

Does anyone know why a Blind Pig was called that? Was it a comment on the quality of the hooch?
WAG: during Prohibition, the BATF was adding denatured alcohol to industrial alcohol to discourage people from drinking it. Blindness was a common side effect (as was death).
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Didja ever order a martini in England?

Some years ago I did, and they had to (after being instructed by me) order out for the olive.
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I’m a little surprised by that. London had a cocktail culture in place as soon as the 1920s. Lord Peter Wimsey loved his dry martinis.

Ordering a martini almost anywhere on the continent, though, will fetch you a glass of Martini & Rossi brand vermouth. (Which I admit makes a fine aperitif, in a tall slender glass with an ice cube or two. The white dry and the red sweet — not all that sweet — are equally good.)
Most of England is not London, though. It's like assuming Alabama is full of skyscrapers because New York City is.
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Old 09-17-2019, 01:52 PM
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The Wisconsin Old Fashioned, though, is a little bit of a different drink than everywhere else in the States.
Really? In what way?
  #62  
Old 09-17-2019, 02:14 PM
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That link redirects to some menu. But if your question is serious, the IBA specs are what I expect unless I ask for something different or if it's a menu item that spells out different specs: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Fashioned
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Old 09-17-2019, 02:22 PM
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I was dining with someone who ordered a martini, specifying the gin. Bombay Sapphire or something. The waiter came back later and asked him if he wanted vodka or gin.

I guess it's good he asked. I don't recall if the drink was made right. I've had a few bartenders ask me how to make something, and I'd rather they do that than wing it. The first time I wanted to try a Last Word I just wrote down the specs on a napkin.
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Old 09-17-2019, 02:23 PM
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That link redirects to some menu. But if your question is serious, the IBA specs are what I expect unless I ask for something different or if it's a menu item that spells out different specs: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Fashioned
It is a link to the restaurant named The Old Fashioned in downtown Madison Wisconsin.
  #65  
Old 09-17-2019, 02:25 PM
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I ordered a martini in a fairly upscale restaurant in Goiânia, Brazil, and it arrived at the table half-and-half vermouth to gin, at room temperature, in a glass that was warm to the touch. I politely requested that it be chilled (relayed through my wife, to ensure no language-barrier misunderstanding) and it was redelivered with ice cubes floating in it. I didn't order martinis in Brazil after that.
That's your own fault. What kind of dingdong orders a martini in the caipirinha capital of the world?
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Old 09-17-2019, 02:28 PM
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Similar: ordering a vodka and tonic at a hotel on Lake Kariba in Zimbabwe, and being served a glass of vodka and a glass of tonic.
I went to a friend's wedding at an all-inclusive resort in Riviera Maya. The bartenders there somehow didn't understand the concept of a "shot." We asked for a round of tequila shots, we got 5 highball glasses filled with tequila.
  #67  
Old 09-17-2019, 02:35 PM
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It is a link to the restaurant named The Old Fashioned in downtown Madison Wisconsin.
I’ve been there! Anyhow, my follow up explains. (And on their menu, the classic Old Fashioned is made with Korbel brandy, which is pretty much exactly what I think of when I think of the quintessential Wisconsin old fashioned: made with Korbel brandy instead of whiskey -- though both are common --, and often served "sweet" with 7-Up, although that is the drinkers option. Can you even order an Old Fashioned in Wisconsin without specifying sweet/sour/press/soda at the end of the order?)

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Old 09-17-2019, 02:42 PM
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I'm also pretty sure the first time I ordered an old fashioned in Wisconsin, I got the same look as if I had gone into a pizza joint and simply asked for a "pizza" with no further descriptor. Whiskey? Brandy? Sweet? Sour?)
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Old 09-17-2019, 02:44 PM
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I went to a friend's wedding at an all-inclusive resort in Riviera Maya. The bartenders there somehow didn't understand the concept of a "shot." We asked for a round of tequila shots, we got 5 highball glasses filled with tequila.
I would not see this as cause for complaint.
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Old 09-17-2019, 06:25 PM
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Any bartender in any bar shown on Bar Rescue. Usually they can't even draw a beer properly.
  #71  
Old 09-17-2019, 07:39 PM
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Any bartender in any bar shown on Bar Rescue. Usually they can't even draw a beer properly.
A lot of really bad bartenders/cooks/wait staff on that show.
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Old 09-17-2019, 07:58 PM
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Years back, even decades back, I tended bar at a place in Queens, New York. Nothing fancy about it at all.

We got our share of young drinkers. Up until a certain point in the night, plenty of old dudes, too.

Now, as it happens, I could have made a perfectly decent martini. An old-fashioned, too, and even a Manhattan. But nobody ever ordered any of those. Bloody Mary was premix -- we had a big bottle we'd whip up as needed. We did get the occasional order for a Bloody Mary.

But in general, the rule was you could order a beer. You could order shots of anything you wanted. You could order any kind of whiskey on the rocks, or at least any kind we had. We weren't big on single malts or anything like that. You could order booze with soda in it. You could (if you were a very young woman) order seven and sevens or some other disgusting kiddie drink. You could even order a gin and tonic. Or even a vodka tonic.

But something like a Long Island Iced Tea, or an old-fashioned, or a Manhattan, or a daiquiri or a margarita? One of two things would happen. If you appeared to be anywhere under thirty, you were going to get carded. And whatever ID you produced would be found unacceptable. Or, if you were older, your attention would be directed to the sign behind the bar that said "pain in the ass drinks $5 extra."
  #73  
Old 09-17-2019, 09:47 PM
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I may be a Phillistine, but I'll just have a vodka martian rinse the glass with dry vermouth and toss in an olive.
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Old 09-17-2019, 09:51 PM
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But something like a Long Island Iced Tea, or an old-fashioned, or a Manhattan, or a daiquiri or a margarita? One of two things would happen. If you appeared to be anywhere under thirty, you were going to get carded. And whatever ID you produced would be found unacceptable. Or, if you were older, your attention would be directed to the sign behind the bar that said "pain in the ass drinks $5 extra."
I'm LOLing at the idea of a three-ingredient drink being a pain in the ass. At least tipping for one is a lot less silly than for a beer or an X and Y highball.
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Old 09-17-2019, 10:14 PM
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I'm LOLing at the idea of a three-ingredient drink being a pain in the ass. At least tipping for one is a lot less silly than for a beer or an X and Y highball.
Yeah, I was thinking the same for the moment, but then I remembered, there's plenty of bars in my neighborhood where I've literally never seen a cocktail that requires a shaker being served, so I get it.
  #76  
Old 09-17-2019, 11:54 PM
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Seriously? Old Fashioneds are the Hip Drink nowadays, they're everywhere.
I doubt you travel as much or as often as I. In June we were in Phoenix, Hell Paso, and Denver. Upscale restaurants too. "Uh, is that a whiskey drink". Over Labor Day I was in Minneapolis. Bartender at the Grand Hotel had to ask another one how to make an Old Fashioned.

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That's not to say they're done well everywhere
That you're right about. We were at the Ritz Carlton in New Orleans. An orangutan would have made them better. And they wanted $14 apiece for them! True story: An old man at the bar polished his off and said to the bartender "THAT, was by far the worst Old Fashioned I have ever had, and I am NOT paying for it!!!" and he walked out.

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"The Fine Art of Mixing Drinks" says that preparing a proper Old Fashioned may take up to 20 minutes.
Sigh.
Jebus Kripes! What a crock of shit!

Any bartender worth his weight will be able to make one in about a minute or two. Muddling fruit, using sugar cubes, adding liquor, ice, and bitters and then press isn't that difficult.

(does everyone know what "press" is?)

Before beginning the bartender should ask what kind of liquor the customer wants (Whiskey, Bourbon, Rye, Brandy, or even SoCo is acceptable) and if they want sweet or sour.
A decent bartender should be able to pour the right amount of spirits without measuring but avoiding over pouring so the drink isn't "boozy". However, I do not subtract points for using a jigger. Any bartender that uses mix should be taken out back and beaten so hard it hospitalizes his mother.

Come to a Wisconsin rural supper club and see what a proper Old Fashioned should taste like. Celestial!

Last edited by pkbites; 09-17-2019 at 11:55 PM.
  #77  
Old 09-18-2019, 01:50 AM
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Any bartender worth his weight will be able to make one in about a minute or two. Muddling fruit, using sugar cubes, adding liquor, ice, and bitters and then press isn't that difficult.
What about the hickory smoke, which seems to be pretty popular nowadays in some circles?

I was fascinated to watch, in a Calgary bar, the barman prepare an Old Fashioned. Then, he put the drink on a platform, put a bell jar over it, and inserted a tube from a smoker into the platform. Soon, the bell jar was full of hickory smoke. He let it sit about five minutes or so, by which time, the smoke had either infused itself into the drink or clung to the inside of the bell jar.

I didn't have an Old Fashioned that night, but I've had them before. I'm wondering what I'm missing, with the hickory smoke.
  #78  
Old 09-18-2019, 02:00 AM
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What about the hickory smoke, which seems to be pretty popular nowadays in some circles?
A fad invented by some millennial who needs his ass kicked.

It is very dangerous to fuck with the Old Fashioned recipe when talking to a purist. And I am a purist!

No mix, no smoke, no artificial sweeteners in my Old Fashioned! Piss off with that bullshit!
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Old 09-18-2019, 02:24 AM
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Why the hate? It's just a cocktail. let people enjoy whatever it is they want to enjoy, no matter what they call it.
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Old 09-18-2019, 03:12 AM
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Why the hate? It's just a cocktail. let people enjoy whatever it is they want to enjoy, no matter what they call it.
Because there is a right way to do things and there is a fucked up way.

Just like the OP said one doesn't put sweet vermouth in a martini, smoke and pre-mix do not belong in an Old Fashioned. Have the bartender piss in your glass for all I care. Just don't call it an Old Fashioned.
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Old 09-18-2019, 03:16 AM
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Well, if I'm having a cocktail, it'd have to be a mocktail. I don't drink alcohol. Anyway, the way I see it, it's [whatever the cocktail name is] with [whatever other options are to be added/deducted]. Don't get all muddled!
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Old 09-18-2019, 05:12 AM
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Red Lobster ? Its a kid working in a place that probably has a section in the drink menu labelled 'martinis' - sweet colourful beverages in cool little conical glasses that never contain gin.
I actually prefer vodka martinis. Which I typically get at my local old-school steakhouse bar. Not Red Lobster or Houlihan's.
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Old 09-18-2019, 05:31 AM
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What kind of bartender can't mix a martini?


A barista.
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Old 09-18-2019, 06:39 AM
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Before beginning the bartender should ask what kind of liquor the customer wants (Whiskey, Bourbon, Rye, Brandy, or even SoCo is acceptable) and if they want sweet or sour.
See, that's a Wisconsin Old Fashioned. For somebody who has traveled so much, you should have realized that's the way it's locally done. It's not how Old Fashioned are done anywhere else in the world, so far as I know.

Read the history here.

Quote:
The national version of America's first craft cocktail — the Old Fashioned — uses whiskey. Also, bitters, also sugar. An Old Fashioned in Wisconsin, however, is brandy by nature, and you "wash" — this is an old school bartenders' term for mixer — with seltzer, sweet (7up or Sprite) or sour (sour soda of your preference). You can also muddle in the orange and cherry before you mix, but that's not necessarily requisite. The orange and cherry garnish is non-negotiable, however. Old dudes garnish theirs with olives.
As for the term "press," I do not think it's a well-known bartending term. I think that's also a Wisconsonian term used in ordering Old Fashioneds.

It's a bit like when I discovered Italian beefs weren't universal, or that giardiniera is either unknown or something a bit different outside the Chicago area. (Like the Old Fashioned, both Chicago giardiniera and Italian giardiniera have some elements in common, but are different enough be noticed.)
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Old 09-18-2019, 06:48 AM
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See, that's a Wisconsin Old Fashioned. For somebody who has traveled so much, you should have realized that's the way it's locally done. It's not how Old Fashioned are done anywhere else in the world, so far as I know.
Look in any bartenders guide and you'll see the Wisconsin version is pretty much what they are supposed to be.

They're aren't done anywhere, really. Like I told you, more than half the time you get deer in headlights looks when just uttering the words "Old Fashioned". The other half the time they make them completely a mess. The Wisconsin version is pretty much what is reciped in every bartenders guide.

I've never seen them outside the U.S.. And I've been to over 2 dozen countries!

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As for the term "press," I do not think it's a well-known bartending term. I think that's also a Wisconsonian term used in ordering Old Fashioneds.
Nonsense. An old school bartender anywhere in the U.S. knows the term for plain soda water is press due to the location of it on the spray gun.

Last edited by pkbites; 09-18-2019 at 06:51 AM.
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Old 09-18-2019, 07:01 AM
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The Wisconsin version is pretty much what is reciped in every bartenders guide.
Look, i don't find that to be the case. Everywhere outside of Wisconsin I've had an Old Fashioned, you don't specify stuff like "sweet" or "sour" or "press." Maybe the whiskey, but if you asked for brandy, you'd get a very odd look indeed. All those are Wisconsin things. Read the article I linked to, written by a Wisconsonian, and interviewing Wisconsonian bartenders.


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Nonsense. An old school bartender anywhere in the U.S. knows the term for plain soda water is press due to the location of it on the spray gun.
But "press" in Wisconsin when ordering an old fashioned doesn't mean "seltzer." It means a mix of 7-up and Seltzer. I'm familiar with it and what it is because that's exactly my standard Old Fashioned order in Wisconsin: Brandy old fashioned press.

Last edited by pulykamell; 09-18-2019 at 07:04 AM.
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Old 09-18-2019, 07:46 AM
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I doubt you travel as much or as often as I. In June we were in Phoenix, Hell Paso, and Denver. Upscale restaurants too. "Uh, is that a whiskey drink". Over Labor Day I was in Minneapolis. Bartender at the Grand Hotel had to ask another one how to make an Old Fashioned.
Haven't been to those places in a while, but I can report back that you can get decent Old Fashioneds in San Francisco, Boise, Chicago, and Schaumburg IL. OK, those last two aren't THAT surprising, being relatively close to Wisconsin, but Boise/SF are pretty far away.

That said, I don't even bother to try if it's not an actual cocktail bar or upscale-ish restaurant, so maybe I'm playing the odds. You are right in that any dive bar in Wisconsin (or even up here in the Upper Peninsula of Wisconsin) can make an Old Fashioned. Not so much in the lesser states.
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Old 09-18-2019, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by pulykamell View Post
Look, i don't find that to be the case. Everywhere outside of Wisconsin I've had an Old Fashioned, you don't specify stuff like "sweet" or "sour" or "press.".
The customer shouldn’t have to order press. The bartender should already know that. Press is just sparkling water. If bartenders are using the term press for white soda they are wrong.
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Old 09-18-2019, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Saintly Loser View Post
Now, as it happens, I could have made a perfectly decent martini. An old-fashioned, too, and even a Manhattan. But nobody ever ordered any of those.

snip

But something like a Long Island Iced Tea, or an old-fashioned, or a Manhattan, or a daiquiri or a margarita?
Make up your mind, can i get a manhattan or not?

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Originally Posted by pkbites View Post

Before beginning the bartender should ask what kind of liquor the customer wants (Whiskey, Bourbon, Rye, Brandy, or even SoCo is acceptable) and if they want sweet or sour.

snip

Come to a Wisconsin rural supper club and see what a proper Old Fashioned should taste like. Celestial!
lol
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Old 09-18-2019, 08:58 AM
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I would not see this as cause for complaint.
I'd tip extra for that "shot".

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Originally Posted by cutman74 View Post
I may be a Phillistine, but I'll just have a vodka martian rinse the glass with dry vermouth and toss in an olive.
I think you had a few martians before you posted.

As far as cocktails go, unless it is a place I know can mix good drinks, I'm sticking to beer or a straight up bourbon. Can't really fuck those up (well, dirty beer lines can). My cocktail of choice is a Manhattan and most places that don't make good drinks tend to serve you an Old Fashioned in a martini glass. Red Lobster can't make good food so I doubt their cocktails are up there either.
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Old 09-18-2019, 09:05 AM
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"Give me a tall glass of warm gin with a human hair in it."
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Old 09-18-2019, 09:18 AM
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"Give me a tall glass of warm gin with a human hair in it."
Oh, well look at you. A human hair. La di dah.
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Old 09-18-2019, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
The customer shouldn’t have to order press. The bartender should already know that. Press is just sparkling water. If bartenders are using the term press for white soda they are wrong.
I suppose "press" may mean different things in different parts of Wisconsin, or depending on the bartender, but when I order "press" it's a mix of 7-up and seltzer.

From madison.com:

Quote:
Variations are legion. Order an Old Fashioned “soda” to replace the 7-Up with seltzer, a “sour” to get one with sour mix, and a “press,” short for Presbyterian, to get a mix of seltzer and lemon-lime soda. Old Fashioneds made with bourbon or rye whiskey are common too.

Or here is an article from The Journal-Sentinel:

Quote:
I grew up in Sheboygan, and my dad made old-fashioneds at home for parties. Both my dad and my mom, the only thing they drank was old-fashioneds or beer. My dad did brandy old-fashioned sweet. My mom did brandy old-fashioned press, which is sweet and seltzer. People make them all kinds of different ways. Brandy old-fashioned sweet is our biggest seller, and Wisconsin's unofficial state cocktail.
Emphasis mine.

This is also how the terminology was explained to me by a close friend who used to tend bar in Milwaukee in the 90s, and when I order a brandy old fashioned press in Wisconsin, I get a mix of 7-up and seltzer.

Maybe you bars do it differently. Maybe old school bartenders do it differently. I don't know, but "press" in regards to old fashioneds I've always known to be a mix of sweet and seltzer.

Regardless, I don't think anywhere else in the States you'd see a bartender topping off an old fashioned with 7-up or Squirt the way you do in Wisconsin. I'm not a fan of regular old fashioneds, but I do like the Wisconsin version as a more easy drinking drink.
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Old 09-18-2019, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
Come to a Wisconsin rural supper club and see what a proper Old Fashioned should taste like. Celestial!
Any recommendations for places to get a well-crafted authentic Old Fashioned?

And, by the way, what IS a "Supper club"? I remember being taken to them as a child, but didn't know why they were different from any other restaurant (I would've said "umm, they're darker, with a lot more drinks, tons of food, and people are really friendly").
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Old 09-18-2019, 09:43 AM
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Because there is a right way to do things and there is a fucked up way.

Just like the OP said one doesn't put sweet vermouth in a martini, smoke and pre-mix do not belong in an Old Fashioned. Have the bartender piss in your glass for all I care. Just don't call it an Old Fashioned.
WTF is pre-mix? And why would it be in an Old Fashioned?

Generally speaking, it's some kind of spirit, some water, bitters and sugar. With or without muddled fruit, etc...

If jackasses are putting sour mix/lemon juice/soda/liqueurs/etc... in there, they're making daisies, fizzes, sours or improved <spirit> cocktails, or whatever, but NOT Old Fashioneds.

It's like putting something in a cocktail glass and calling it a <something)-tini just because Martinis are typically served in that glass (along with dozens of other drinks FYI).

It's ignorant and it's incorrect. There's nothing wrong with say... a whiskey fizz (whiskey, lemon juice, sugar, ice and soda water), but don't call it an Old Fashioned.

The cocktail world can get kind of absurdly picky sometimes- for example, the difference between a gin fizz and a Tom Collins is just the size of the glass and that the Tom Collins is served over ice rather than without ice.

I'm willing to admit that the fruit is not really defined, so it could fall within the definition of an Old Fashioned, but what some of you are describing are entirely other drinks- fizzy whiskey sours and things closer to a whiskey buck than an Old Fashioned.
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Old 09-18-2019, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by wguy123 View Post

As far as cocktails go, unless it is a place I know can mix good drinks, I'm sticking to beer or a straight up bourbon. Can't really fuck those up (well, dirty beer lines can). My cocktail of choice is a Manhattan and most places that don't make good drinks tend to serve you an Old Fashioned in a martini glass. Red Lobster can't make good food so I doubt their cocktails are up there either.
Yep. A Manhattan is my cocktail of choice but I'll never order one any place I haven't been before. Very few places know how to make a proper one*, or have the ingredients for that matter.

In fact, I have to be careful even in the places I usually order one, because hipster doofuses, LA trust-fund douchebags and hip-hop asshats order the worst possible combinations and the bartenders never know whether or not you know what you are doing. It's going to be ugly for all concerned if my 20-year-old single malt is delivered on the rocks.



* - Rye, dammit! RYE!!! And none of that homeopathy with the vermouth, either. Served up, in a martini or coupe glass with Luxardo cherries.
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Old 09-18-2019, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by silenus View Post
Yep. A Manhattan is my cocktail of choice but I'll never order one any place I haven't been before. Very few places know how to make a proper one*, or have the ingredients for that matter.

In fact, I have to be careful even in the places I usually order one, because hipster doofuses, LA trust-fund douchebags and hip-hop asshats order the worst possible combinations and the bartenders never know whether or not you know what you are doing. It's going to be ugly for all concerned if my 20-year-old single malt is delivered on the rocks.



* - Rye, dammit! RYE!!! And none of that homeopathy with the vermouth, either. Served up, in a martini or coupe glass with Luxardo cherries.
I give this all a +1.
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Old 09-18-2019, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by bump View Post

If jackasses are putting sour mix/lemon juice/soda/liqueurs/etc... in there, they're making daisies, fizzes, sours or improved <spirit> cocktails, or whatever, but NOT Old Fashioneds.
Here's the Milwaukee tourism's Youtube page showing what a Wisconsin old fashioned looks like. You will note the use of brandy (though you get a choice, but Korbel brandy seems to be the default there) and the top off of soda of your choice at the end to be different than what is known as an old fashioned in much of the rest of the US. Something like this is what I expect everywhere else but Wisconsin.

Last edited by pulykamell; 09-18-2019 at 10:01 AM.
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Old 09-18-2019, 10:12 AM
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After years of being served crap gin martinis I finally gave up and just ordered "Bombay Blue Sapphire, shaken, with an olive"
Even then sometimes I'll get a vermouth infused drink.

The worst was when I ordered a Martini in a hotel bar and asked for it to be extremely dry. The bartender in his infinite wisdom thought that the way to make an extremely dry martini was to add more dry vermouth. Not realizing that, I politely said it wasn't even close to dry and sent it back.
What came back was a glass of dry vermouth. I got up and went to the bar.
The bartender, a young guy, said he was sorry and it was his first martini. After an explanation of "dryness" I walked him through the process, handed him a large tip, and took my martini back to my table.

Last edited by BubbaDog; 09-18-2019 at 10:12 AM.
  #100  
Old 09-18-2019, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by pulykamell View Post
Here's the Milwaukee tourism's Youtube page showing what a Wisconsin old fashioned looks like. You will note the use of brandy (though you get a choice, but Korbel brandy seems to be the default there)...
Darn right Korbel is the default brandy. "Wisconsin is our number one state," says Margie Healy, director of public relations for the California-based Korbel. "We export 385,000 cases a year, and 139,000 go directly to Wisconsin. That's one-third of our total production."

Hilariously, that's from an article where they have no clue as to why...
"It's easy to speculate that the long winters are partially responsible. Hot drinks like the brandy alexander and the hot toddy are not only popular winter cocktails, but also believed by some to reduce the effects of colds and flus... There is absolutely nothing historically that explains brandy's popularity in Wisconsin".

But we know why...

Last edited by digs; 09-18-2019 at 10:14 AM.
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