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  #201  
Old 09-19-2019, 07:12 AM
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In the way that Trump has had more guns seized than any other president.
Obviously this is the pit, but, still... cite?
  #202  
Old 09-19-2019, 09:17 AM
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Obviously this is the pit, but, still... cite?
Yeah, at this time we need a bit more than "Because I say so."
  #203  
Old 09-19-2019, 09:23 AM
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What does it matter? One has to wait to be exposed to horrible violence first before deserving to utilize the right to a gun?

It’s a tool, just like any other, kept in service and hopefully never needing to be used.
You know, I often hear people saying that a gun is just a tool, but I've never, ever seen a picture of someone holding up their Black and Decker cordless drill.
  #204  
Old 09-19-2019, 10:06 AM
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You know, I often hear people saying that a gun is just a tool, but I've never, ever seen a picture of someone holding up their Black and Decker cordless drill.
Funny you addressed the last part of my post but not the first.

Speaks volumes.
  #205  
Old 09-19-2019, 10:47 AM
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Funny you addressed the last part of my post but not the first.

Speaks volumes.

Only in America does threat of violence justify the possession of a gun. But often not just one gun. An entire armory of guns and ammo. Everything from hand guns to assault style weapons. Justified not simply due to some threat of violence (real or imagined) but additionally by some delusional ideology that they are part of a citizen militia, 'locked and loaded' to repel tyrannical enemies, foreign and domestic, including their own government.

Speaks volumes, indeed.
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  #206  
Old 09-19-2019, 11:04 AM
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Only in America does threat of violence justify the possession of a gun. But often not just one gun. An entire armory of guns and ammo. Everything from hand guns to assault style weapons. Justified not simply due to some threat of violence (real or imagined) but additionally by some delusional ideology that they are part of a citizen militia, 'locked and loaded' to repel tyrannical enemies, foreign and domestic, including their own government.

Speaks volumes, indeed.
They can be a part of a militia and people can form a militia if they so choose. Those are rights. Mockery and hyperbole will never change it.

I get it. You dislike guns, have strong feelings about the kind of guns you feel that people should be allowed to have, and spend a weird amount of time saying as much in multiple different ways and several different levels of mockery and insults.

Still changes nothing. It’s a right.
  #207  
Old 09-19-2019, 11:50 AM
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They can be a part of a militia and people can form a militia if they so choose. Those are rights. Mockery and hyperbole will never change it.

I get it. You dislike guns, have strong feelings about the kind of guns you feel that people should be allowed to have, and spend a weird amount of time saying as much in multiple different ways and several different levels of mockery and insults.

Still changes nothing. It’s a right.
Fortunately, a lot of people are fed up with the status quo and do not stop at mockery. They are voting for gun controls and limiting access. Some 85%+ percent of the country agrees that status quo is no longer acceptable. When people vote, laws tend to change. So I would not be so sure about your "changes nothing" conclusion.
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  #208  
Old 09-19-2019, 12:24 PM
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Even by Pit standards this has degenerated into pointless name-calling.
  #209  
Old 09-19-2019, 12:37 PM
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Even by Pit standards this has degenerated into pointless name-calling.
No you are!
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Old 09-19-2019, 01:56 PM
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Obviously this is the pit, but, still... cite?
How is it that you nothing about this. It was all over the news for months.

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/bump-stocks
Quote:
In response to that direction the Department reviewed more than 186,000 public comments and made the decision to make clear that the term “machinegun” as used in the National Firearms Act (NFA), as amended, and Gun Control Act (GCA), as amended, includes all bump-stock-type devices that harness recoil energy to facilitate the continuous operation of a semiautomatic long gun after a single pull of the trigger.
Bump stocks are now machine guns, just like drop in auto sears. Since the regulation did not provide any sort of registration scheme, bump stocks are now contraband machine guns as they were all made after May 1986.

Far more people supported keeping bump stocks legal during the comment period, but that did not stop Trump from making his first gun grab.

Here is the final rule in the CFR's.
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/...2018-27763.pdf
Quote:
The Department of Justice is amending the regulations of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) to clarify that bump- stock-type devices—meaning ‘‘bump fire’’ stocks, slide-fire devices, and devices with certain similar characteristics—are ‘‘machineguns’’ as defined by the National Firearms Act of 1934 and the Gun Control Act of 1968 because such devices allow a shooter of a semiautomatic firearm to initiate a continuous firing cycle with a single pull of the trigger.
After years of repeatedly telling Americans that bump stocks were legal semi-auto firearms, the feds folded like a lawn chair when Trump wanted to ban them. The NRA went right along with it by almost saying something bad about Trump.

It also says the cost of the new regulation will be $312,141,666. That is without compensation. The only people compensated for their seized property are those in states that directed a buyback prior to the new federal regulation.

The definition of a machine gun in 27 CFR 447.11 has been updated.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/447.11

So who else has grabbed more guns than Trump? Surely you recall that Clinton's AWB of 1994 resulted in zero or few guns confiscated since the existing assault weapons were grandfathered in.

A case could be made for FDR's gun grab as the result of passage of the NFA of 1934, but I don't know if there were 600,000 SBS, SBR's silencers and machine guns in private hands back then. In any case. Those owners were allowed to register their NFA firearms instead of destroying or turning them in.
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  #211  
Old 09-19-2019, 02:01 PM
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You know, I often hear people saying that a gun is just a tool, but I've never, ever seen a picture of someone holding up their Black and Decker cordless drill.
You can't see anything with your eyes closed so much.

https://www.google.com/search?q=man+...w=1138&bih=522
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  #212  
Old 09-19-2019, 02:05 PM
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So who else has grabbed more guns than Trump?
Sorry, that was good information you provided, but nowhere did it say that any guns were seized.
  #213  
Old 09-19-2019, 02:07 PM
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Wow, a "bump stock" is now a gun. Who knew?

It's particularly terrible when you consider that bump stocks have a long, long history and have been in use for years, going all the way back to the founding fathers. And of course it's well known that you cannot reasonably be expected to operate any kind of a firearm without a bump stock.

Why, bump stocks are simply really useful tools, and are an important part of anyone's need to defend themselves, hunt or target shoot. When the next zombie apocalypse comes, don't come crying to me because you can't eliminate 15 - 20 zombies per minute.

And when you need to overthrow the next illegitimate Democrat government, how can you do this without your trusty bump stock?
  #214  
Old 09-19-2019, 02:12 PM
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You.
Fucking.
Moron.

This is a "bump stock". A "bump stock" is not a type of firearm-it is a modification to a firearm, Martin McFlybrain.

Last edited by Czarcasm; 09-19-2019 at 02:12 PM.
  #215  
Old 09-19-2019, 02:25 PM
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Sorry, that was good information you provided, but nowhere did it say that any guns were seized.
What do you think happens to them? The BATFE has provided instructions on how to destroy them. If you care to search for yourself, then you will see that people are turning them in and some others who did not are being arrested.

I doubt that nearly half a million Americans are hiding their bump stocks in case the law changes.
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  #216  
Old 09-19-2019, 02:29 PM
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What do you think happens to them? The BATFE has provided instructions on how to destroy them. If you care to search for yourself, then you will see that people are turning them in and some others who did not are being arrested.

I doubt that nearly half a million Americans are hiding their bump stocks in case the law changes.
Who gives a flying fuck if bump stocks are grabbed.
Bump Stocks Are Not Firearms
  #217  
Old 09-19-2019, 02:32 PM
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You.
Fucking.
Moron.

This is a "bump stock". A "bump stock" is not a type of firearm-it is a modification to a firearm, Martin McFlybrain.
So the definition of a firearm is what Czarcasm says, not what the federal government says? I run in to this at times. A person's sole argument is their imaginary definition of legal terms instead of the real thing. Good luck with that.

If a person is accused of bump stock possession, they would be charged with a violation of the NFA of 1934 which calls for a $10,000 fine and 10 years in prison. Will their defense be "My bump stock is not a gun"? Probably not. If anyone tries to make that kind of defense, their lawyer will call them a moron.

Think about it, who defines what a machine gun is? You or the federal government?
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  #218  
Old 09-19-2019, 02:33 PM
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Wow, ....
Sooooo, Trump a gun grabber or not?
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  #219  
Old 09-19-2019, 02:34 PM
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Who gives a flying fuck if bump stocks are grabbed.
Bump Stocks Are Not Firearms
The owners care. It does not matter how you dress up your post with ignorance and profanity, some people care.

Your willful ignorance does not trump federal law either. With an attitude like that, your ass is going to end up in a sling someday.
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  #220  
Old 09-19-2019, 02:35 PM
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so the definition of a firearm is what czarcasm says, not what the federal government says? I run in to this at times. A person's sole argument is their imaginary definition of legal terms instead of the real thing. Good luck with that.

If a person is accused of bump stock possession, they would be charged with a violation of the nfa of 1934 which calls for a $10,000 fine and 10 years in prison. Will their defense be "my bump stock is not a gun"? Probably not. If anyone tries to make that kind of defense, their lawyer will call them a moron.

Think about it, who defines what a machine gun is? You or the federal government?
Too stupid to argue with.

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  #221  
Old 09-19-2019, 02:38 PM
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lol @ fighting the US military with a few assault weapons. It's pandering, just like the tax issue "It's YOUR money" (so let's give trillions to the 1%)
  #222  
Old 09-19-2019, 02:47 PM
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Think about it, who defines what a machine gun is? You or the federal government?
Could I go out into a field and shoot an animal with just a bump stock?
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Old 09-19-2019, 02:53 PM
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Could I go out into a field and shoot an animal with just a bump stock?
No, but you can hit a bunny rabbit over the head with it.
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Old 09-19-2019, 02:59 PM
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Too stupid to argue with.
I agree that you are too stupid to argue with. But it is times like this that I feel like I'm clubbing baby seals when I post the letter of the law and they will not even try to read and understand it.

Or perhaps you can tell me exactly which part of 27 CFR you do not agree with?
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  #225  
Old 09-19-2019, 03:02 PM
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Could I go out into a field and shoot an animal with just a bump stock?
No. But not all firearms as they are defined by the government actually fire projectiles. The government also includes drop-in auto sears (the part that makes a machine gun fire repeatedly) and silencers in the definition of firearms.
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Old 09-19-2019, 03:02 PM
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Any other pro-gun people agree that a bump stock is a firearm in and of itself?
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Old 09-19-2019, 03:03 PM
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Any other pro-gun people agree that a bump stock is a firearm in and of itself?
Oh, that is a new one! Federal law is actually a popularity contest? The universe is going to own you some day if you keep thinking like this.
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  #228  
Old 09-19-2019, 03:04 PM
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No. But not all firearms as they are defined by the government actually fire projectiles. The government also includes drop-in auto sears (the part that makes a machine gun fire repeatedly) and silencers in the definition of firearms.
Well, I've never argued that the government wasn't stupid sometimes.
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Old 09-19-2019, 03:06 PM
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Well, I've never argued that the government wasn't stupid sometimes.
I'm not going to argue with you there. But who decides what a firearm is? The government or the likes of you and Czarcasm? Seeing as how I'm subject to those laws, I'm going to side with the feds on that definition. It will keep me out of jail longer.
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  #230  
Old 09-19-2019, 03:13 PM
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I'm not going to argue with you there. But who decides what a firearm is? The government or the likes of you and Czarcasm? Seeing as how I'm subject to those laws, I'm going to side with the feds on that definition. It will keep me out of jail longer.
Hey, you can think whatever you want. And we can mock you for it. 'Merica!
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Old 09-19-2019, 03:21 PM
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Yes, the real price of the 1st Amendment.
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  #232  
Old 09-19-2019, 03:28 PM
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Czarcasm has left the thread and created another one to drum up support for his "I say what guns are, not the federal government" tripe.

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=882349 Tune in there for more baby seal clubbing.
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  #233  
Old 09-19-2019, 04:14 PM
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I'm not going to argue with you there. But who decides what a firearm is? The government or the likes of you and Czarcasm? Seeing as how I'm subject to those laws, I'm going to side with the feds on that definition. It will keep me out of jail longer.
This ain't France - there is no Académie Française in America. So you want to know who doesn't define what a gun is America? The government!
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Old 09-19-2019, 04:44 PM
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Fortunately, a lot of people are fed up with the status quo and do not stop at mockery. They are voting for gun controls and limiting access. Some 85%+ percent of the country agrees that status quo is no longer acceptable. When people vote, laws tend to change. So I would not be so sure about your "changes nothing" conclusion.
I'm a gun owner (just one rifle right now). I say the current status quo is bullshit.

I'm ALL for background checks, federal regulation to replace and over-rule the states with their crazy randomness, and I'm all for making sure crazy people and gun nut far right conspiracy freaks, Nazis, extremists, fascists, etc, can never get anything more dangerous than a paperclip.

People's right to stay alive out ranks some Ted "ShittyPantsDraftDodger" Nugent asshole wannabe's desire to compensate for a tiny dick or play out some sick right wng "kill the libs" bullshit fantasy.

Yeah I said it.
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Old 09-19-2019, 04:50 PM
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The owners care. It does not matter how you dress up your post with ignorance and profanity, some people care.

Your willful ignorance does not trump federal law either. With an attitude like that, your ass is going to end up in a sling someday.
Why does anyone need a bump stock?

Is it of ANY use in hunting, target shooting, home defense, (any other "reason" to have guns and shit) or anything other than spraying large groups of people? quickly?

Take them all and melt them down, smash them, dump them in the ocean, whatever.
  #236  
Old 09-19-2019, 04:51 PM
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I'm a gun owner (just one rifle right now). I say the current status quo is bullshit.

I'm ALL for background checks, federal regulation to replace and over-rule the states with their crazy randomness, and I'm all for making sure crazy people and gun nut far right conspiracy freaks, Nazis, extremists, fascists, etc, can never get anything more dangerous than a paperclip.

People's right to stay alive out ranks some Ted "ShittyPantsDraftDodger" Nugent asshole wannabe's desire to compensate for a tiny dick or play out some sick right wng "kill the libs" bullshit fantasy.

Yeah I said it.
Would you be willing to give up your own rifle to achieve this? I mean, I have a hard time thinking of a net that will scoop up the far right that has holes large enough for the sane to slip thorough.
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Old 09-19-2019, 04:53 PM
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.... and gun nut far right conspiracy freaks, Nazis, extremists, fascists, etc, can never get anything more dangerous than a paperclip.
It seems that you are including people you merely dislike in the group of people who should be denied guns. I've no sympathy for fascists (aren't all nazis fascists?), but I'm not about to deny guns to people simply because I don't like them.
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  #238  
Old 09-19-2019, 05:02 PM
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It seems that you are including people you merely dislike in the group of people who should be denied guns. I've no sympathy for fascists (aren't all nazis fascists?), but I'm not about to deny guns to people simply because I don't like them.
The list to me looks like people who are mentally unsound and/or openly espouse violent policy, give or take "extremists" which is a rather generic term. (As is "etc.", I suppose.)

I mean, I'm sure he dislikes these people, but they also sound legitimately unsafe.
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Old 09-19-2019, 05:07 PM
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Would you be willing to give up your own rifle to achieve this? I mean, I have a hard time thinking of a net that will scoop up the far right that has holes large enough for the sane to slip thorough.
At this point, SURE. If they pass a law tomorrow saying turn in ALL semiautos (including .22LR which mine is) I would comply.

My only "condition" is, don't arrest me or shoot me while trying to turn it in.

But it is unlikely I would be grouped with the crazies. I have no police record, no warrants, no psychological issues, and am not affiliated with any gangs/groups - fascist/racist/Marxist/"islamist" or otherwise.

The only "crimes" I ever did were parking and speeding... LONG ago.
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Old 09-19-2019, 05:08 PM
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It seems that you are including people you merely dislike in the group of people who should be denied guns. I've no sympathy for fascists (aren't all nazis fascists?), but I'm not about to deny guns to people simply because I don't like them.
Fuck the fascists and the Nazis. And they aren't necessarily the same identical thing in ALL ways. But, close enough.
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Old 09-19-2019, 05:22 PM
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At this point, SURE. If they pass a law tomorrow saying turn in ALL semiautos (including .22LR which mine is) I would comply.

My only "condition" is, don't arrest me or shoot me while trying to turn it in.

But it is unlikely I would be grouped with the crazies. I have no police record, no warrants, no psychological issues, and am not affiliated with any gangs/groups - fascist/racist/Marxist/"islamist" or otherwise.

The only "crimes" I ever did were parking and speeding... LONG ago.
I approve of you as a human being.
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Old 09-19-2019, 06:05 PM
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Fuck the fascists and the Nazis. And they aren't necessarily the same identical thing in ALL ways. But, close enough.
Yes, I'll even give you the barbed wire baseball bat to do it with.

But the others in your post. Are they to be denied civil rights just because you don't like them? That is backwards thinking of the type Reagan exhibited when he signed the Mulford Act in reaction to blacks carrying guns to defend themselves from racist attacks.
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  #243  
Old 09-19-2019, 06:07 PM
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Yes, I'll even give you the barbed wire baseball bat to do it with.

But the others in your post. Are they to be denied civil rights just because you don't like them? That is backwards thinking of the type Reagan exhibited when he signed the Mulford Act in reaction to blacks carrying guns to defend themselves from racist attacks.
The others being "conspiracy theorists" (the mentally unstable), "extremists" (the violent), and "etc" (hippies), just to be clear.
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Old 09-19-2019, 06:08 PM
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Why does anyone need a bump stock?
The "why does anyone need" argument is the most unsound reasoning to use when discussing why anyone in a free society should be able to possess something.

In my experience it is also the sign of a person who does not wish to debate but instead demonstrate that they came to a conclusion without knowing any facts.
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  #245  
Old 09-19-2019, 06:19 PM
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The "why does anyone need" argument is the most unsound reasoning to use when discussing why anyone in a free society should be able to possess something.
Actually "everyone needs this" is probably the only reason cars are allowed on the roads, given how much damage and death they deal.

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In my experience it is also the sign of a person who does not wish to debate but instead demonstrate that they came to a conclusion without knowing any facts.
What a unique and convenient experience you have!
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Old 09-19-2019, 06:25 PM
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The "why does anyone need" argument is the most unsound reasoning to use when discussing why anyone in a free society should be able to possess something.

In my experience it is also the sign of a person who does not wish to debate but instead demonstrate that they came to a conclusion without knowing any facts.
It's not always that terrible an argument. I don't think one size fits all here.

For example:

Why does anyone need a big car? They are gas guzzlers. There should be regulations against them. (BAD ARGUMENT)

Why does anyone need Grape Soda? It is an abomination, and nobody will die if we take it off the shelves for God's sake! (BAD ARGUMENT)

Why does anyone need bump stocks? Their only purpose is to adapt a non-machine gun to make it operate like a machine gun, in order to kill as many people as possible as fast as possible. This is dangerous in our society, especially since someone used this exact kind of device recently to kill 58 people and wound 422 in a very short time frame. (NOT SUCH A BAD ARGUMENT)
  #247  
Old 09-19-2019, 06:30 PM
MartinLane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
Why does anyone need bump stocks? Their only purpose is to adapt a non-machine gun to make it operate like a machine gun, in order to kill as many people as possible as fast as possible.
Actually they do not operate like a machine gun. The trigger on a semi-auto rifle is pulled for each round fired. A machine gun fires several rounds with each trigger pull. Nearly all center-fire semi-auto firearms are capable of bump firing without a bump stock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
This is dangerous in our society, especially since someone used this exact kind of device recently to kill 58 people and wound 422 in a very short time frame. (NOT SUCH A BAD ARGUMENT)
Bump stocks were owned by nearly half a million people without any murders associated with them as far as I know. If they were actually invented for the purpose of murder, then they would have been in the news for earlier.

Quote:
in order to kill as many people as possible as fast as possible
Evidence to support this claim?
__________________
Thou shall not lay the burden of proof upon those questioning the claim
  #248  
Old 09-19-2019, 06:38 PM
begbert2 is online now
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Is it just me, or is the argument turning towards "guns aren't designed or intended to kill things; that's just a random side effect of their real purpose: making a lot of noise and putting holes in paper."
  #249  
Old 09-19-2019, 06:40 PM
SamuelA is online now
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Originally Posted by MartinLane View Post
Actually they do not operate like a machine gun. The trigger on a semi-auto rifle is pulled for each round fired. A machine gun fires several rounds with each trigger pull. Nearly all center-fire semi-auto firearms are capable of bump firing without a bump stock.
The gun is "pulling it's own trigger" with a bump stock. You could presumably rig up a mechanical system that did the same thing and externally pushed on your finger which then in turn pushes on the trigger. And each round fired would in turn trigger the mechanism so the gun would keep firing until the weapon was empty.

It was always a grey area with the bump stocks. What does it mean to "pull" a trigger. Does your finger need to actually move with muscle effort or can the gun slide forward for you and you keep your finger in one place?

I mean, not that it matters much. Someone willing to commit mass murder and intending to die and escape all consequences would probably just illegally modify a weapon into a machinegun.

Last edited by SamuelA; 09-19-2019 at 06:41 PM.
  #250  
Old 09-19-2019, 06:48 PM
Euphonious Polemic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinLane View Post
Actually they do not operate like a machine gun. The trigger on a semi-auto rifle is pulled for each round fired. A machine gun fires several rounds with each trigger pull. Nearly all center-fire semi-auto firearms are capable of bump firing without a bump stock.


Bump stocks were owned by nearly half a million people without any murders associated with them as far as I know. If they were actually invented for the purpose of murder, then they would have been in the news for earlier.
"like" as in "not identical to, but serving the same purpose"

I didn't say they were invented for the purpose of murder. Their function is to kill as many people as quickly as possible. It's a credit to the sanity of the public that they were not used for mass murder until recently.

Your critique of the nuances of what technically can be called a machine gun aside, my argument still stands; sometimes "why does anyone need" can be a good argument.
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