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Old 01-27-2019, 03:05 AM
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Does Microsoft own my laptop?

I've heard that the Bank owns my credit card, and the DMV owns my driver's license. I guess that simplifies their legal basis for confiscating my card or license when it needs confiscating.

Do yung'uns remember when almost all the telephones in the U.S.A. were owned by The Telephone Company? (I don't recall The Phone Company ever showing up to grab their property back, but I suppose it happened to some.)

Anyway, my question — maybe I should be posting in GQ — is Does Microsoft own my laptop? It sure acts as though it does. It updates and reboots at its whim. Just yesterday it installed a massive new version of Windows 10, and today it tells me it's going to do the same again real soon. (It presents a window with clickable options, but "Opt out altogether" is not one of the clickables. The options were something like "Hurt you immediately,' and "Postpone and let us hurt you at our whim sometime in the near future."

I suppose some avid Windows users would agree that this new W10 ("W100,10"?) now ranks 2.5 on a beauty scale of 1 to 10 while the old W10 was only 2.4. Everything I've noticed so far is Worse.

For example, I clicked to turn on a hot-spot broadcast from ten feet away, entered one of two possible passwords, and waited. Under W10 connection would have been instantaneous. Under W100,010 or whatever number it is, it thought and thought and flashed little "thinking bubbles" across the screen. "WOW!!!" I thought. "This W10,000010 is really something; it's running some elaborate diagnostics or whatever." After a long delay, the diagnostic message came back: I'd entered the wrong password.

Let me digress. On a certain on-line game there's a clickable labeled "Ready." If you click it, it says "Not Ready." (Click it a 2nd (or 3rd) time and it will say "Ready" (or "Not Ready") again. But when it says "Ready" it is NOT Ready. It's when it says "Not Ready" that it's Ready! That behavior is not specific to that game; it is ubiquitous in the post-rational era. As another example, in Youtube the muting icon will be labeled "Mute" when you're NOT muted, "Un-mute" when you are muted. Does everyone know what I'm talking about? What's the word for this phenomenon? I'll call it "Ready Reversal."

Anyway, during the installation of Windows One Thousand and Ten (or whatever it is) I was presented with a menu to select eight wonderful features. That was an easy decision for me — I want zero new features: CP/M made me happy and it's been all down-hill since then. But was Ready Reversal in effect or NOT?? I didn't know (and couldn't Google for an answer; Microsoft was in total charge of my keyboard, Internet and mouse). So I ended up with NONE of the features ... or ALL of them, I'm not sure.

Anyway, I'm seeking legal advice so perhaps should have posted in IMHO instead of GQ.

Was there some fine-print I signed when I took delivery of a laptop with W10 pre-installed? Does Microsoft own my laptop? If not, are they guilty of a crime (theft of services? pandering?) or will I have to sue them in civil court?

I'd ask if any Dopers want to join my class-action suit — $777 million for the lawyers and 7¢ for each Windows victim — but I don't think we'd win anyway. Because I'm pretty sure Microsoft owns my laptop.
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Old 01-27-2019, 03:12 AM
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Originally Posted by septimus View Post
I've heard that the Bank owns my credit card, and the DMV owns my driver's license. I guess that simplifies their legal basis for confiscating my card or license when it needs confiscating.

Do yung'uns remember when almost all the telephones in the U.S.A. were owned by The Telephone Company? (I don't recall The Phone Company ever showing up to grab their property back, but I suppose it happened to some.)

Anyway, my question — maybe I should be posting in GQ — is Does Microsoft own my laptop? It sure acts as though it does. It updates and reboots at its whim. Just yesterday it installed a massive new version of Windows 10, and today it tells me it's going to do the same again real soon. (It presents a window with clickable options, but "Opt out altogether" is not one of the clickables. The options were something like "Hurt you immediately,' and "Postpone and let us hurt you at our whim sometime in the near future."

I suppose some avid Windows users would agree that this new W10 ("W100,10"?) now ranks 2.5 on a beauty scale of 1 to 10 while the old W10 was only 2.4. Everything I've noticed so far is Worse.

For example, I clicked to turn on a hot-spot broadcast from ten feet away, entered one of two possible passwords, and waited. Under W10 connection would have been instantaneous. Under W100,010 or whatever number it is, it thought and thought and flashed little "thinking bubbles" across the screen. "WOW!!!" I thought. "This W10,000010 is really something; it's running some elaborate diagnostics or whatever." After a long delay, the diagnostic message came back: I'd entered the wrong password.

Let me digress. On a certain on-line game there's a clickable labeled "Ready." If you click it, it says "Not Ready." (Click it a 2nd (or 3rd) time and it will say "Ready" (or "Not Ready") again. But when it says "Ready" it is NOT Ready. It's when it says "Not Ready" that it's Ready! That behavior is not specific to that game; it is ubiquitous in the post-rational era. As another example, in Youtube the muting icon will be labeled "Mute" when you're NOT muted, "Un-mute" when you are muted. Does everyone know what I'm talking about? What's the word for this phenomenon? I'll call it "Ready Reversal."

Anyway, during the installation of Windows One Thousand and Ten (or whatever it is) I was presented with a menu to select eight wonderful features. That was an easy decision for me — I want zero new features: CP/M made me happy and it's been all down-hill since then. But was Ready Reversal in effect or NOT?? I didn't know (and couldn't Google for an answer; Microsoft was in total charge of my keyboard, Internet and mouse). So I ended up with NONE of the features ... or ALL of them, I'm not sure.

Anyway, I'm seeking legal advice so perhaps should have posted in IMHO instead of GQ.

Was there some fine-print I signed when I took delivery of a laptop with W10 pre-installed? Does Microsoft own my laptop? If not, are they guilty of a crime (theft of services? pandering?) or will I have to sue them in civil court?

I'd ask if any Dopers want to join my class-action suit — $777 million for the lawyers and 7¢ for each Windows victim — but I don't think we'd win anyway. Because I'm pretty sure Microsoft owns my laptop.
...no.
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Old 01-27-2019, 03:13 AM
thelurkinghorror thelurkinghorror is online now
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Not really, you can always put Linux on there.

But my IT department essentially owns my computer. If you think Windows updates are annoying, you haven't seen their system. Mandatory updates at random times, possibly bricking one computer (I didn't see it happen, just how it was explained to me). I went to grab food around 1 and come back to "your computer will restart in 3 minutes." If I get rid of the computer I have to clear it with them.

And don't get me started on MacOS and iOS deciding to auto update, breaking software that relies on one specific version of the OS. And no real way to turn it off - iPad is permanently off wifi to prevent users absentmindedly updating.
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Old 01-27-2019, 03:52 AM
Evil Economist Evil Economist is offline
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Since the answer to the question asked is pretty obvious, I'll just complain about Windows.

I was on a video meeting on my laptop when it crashed. OK, that happens. But apparently it decided that it needed to send information about the crash to Microsoft, without giving me the opportunity to cancel. Ordinarily I wouldn't care, but I was missing a meeting, and it took at least 5 minutes of badly missed time before it finished gathering the data and restarting. Dear Microsoft: fuck you for not including a cancel button.

Then when it restarted it turns out that needed to install an update. So instead of starting up it installed an update, which also took a very long time. Dear Microsoft: fuck you for not including a "pause this update" button.

After the update was installed it rebooted, at which time....it decided that it needed to install another update. Then it rebooted again.

Altogether, that crash took 40 minutes to recover from, and I missed out on a very important meeting. Pre-Windows 10 it might have taken 2-3 minutes.

Fucking Microsoft.

(I also have another story which pisses me off even more, but that I can't share on this board)
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Old 01-27-2019, 04:44 AM
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Since the answer to the question asked is pretty obvious, I'll just complain about Windows.

I was on a video meeting on my laptop when it crashed. OK, that happens. But apparently it decided that it needed to send information about the crash to Microsoft, without giving me the opportunity to cancel. Ordinarily I wouldn't care, but I was missing a meeting, and it took at least 5 minutes of badly missed time before it finished gathering the data and restarting. Dear Microsoft: fuck you for not including a cancel button.

Then when it restarted it turns out that needed to install an update. So instead of starting up it installed an update, which also took a very long time. Dear Microsoft: fuck you for not including a "pause this update" button.

After the update was installed it rebooted, at which time....it decided that it needed to install another update. Then it rebooted again.

Altogether, that crash took 40 minutes to recover from, and I missed out on a very important meeting. Pre-Windows 10 it might have taken 2-3 minutes.

Fucking Microsoft.

(I also have another story which pisses me off even more, but that I can't share on this board)

Microsoft does not know when you are giving "very important" presentations. It just updates on a well published schedule. If you don't know that schedule and cannot be arsed to test your stuff before getting on a stage, who do you think should be blamed?
  #6  
Old 01-27-2019, 05:47 AM
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Microsoft does not know when you are giving "very important" presentations. It just updates on a well published schedule. If you don't know that schedule and cannot be arsed to test your stuff before getting on a stage, who do you think should be blamed?
Windows Updates are not that predictable. At most you know the general day they put out the actual scheduled minor updates, but that's it. There are unscheduled updates that go out, and sometimes you don't pick up scheduled updates on the day of.

Then there are the major updates that go live whenever Microsoft feels they are ready, often overriding settings not to go out and seek for them. October's version 1809 has been sporadically popping up everywhere. It is not remotely on a schedule.

It is entirely Microsoft's fault in how they have implemented their update system. There's no reason why you shouldn't be able to delay an update during a presentation. And other OSes that require updates don't force upgrades whenever they want like this. And Microsoft's excuse of it making it easier to support is silly, since they could just say "We only support Windows with all the updates" for each version they wish to support.

There's no reason for you to jump to Microsoft's aid against someone who is experiencing the poorly designed Windows Update system, and frustrated about their computer. If you know about computers, you could do what I'm going to do in my next post and help him learn how to take back control of his computer. Not attack him because he dared say something negative about Microsoft.

Of course Microsoft's update paradigm is Microsoft's fault.
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Old 01-27-2019, 06:00 AM
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My small tablet (or whatever) Surface Go will not allow me to download Firefox or Chrome. Whatever they can go fuck themselves.
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Old 01-27-2019, 06:19 AM
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Now to answer the OP:

You did in effect agree to allowing Microsoft to be able to do these things, but you did not transfer ownership, either by law or in fact. You still have control over your computer, and you have the right to use software that circumvents this bullshit.

That's right. There is software that stops Windows from pulling this shit. One I found quickly by Googling is Kill-Update. I can't vouch for it since I don't use Windows 10, but what it says it does is exactly what needs to be done.

You will also want to look up how to set your Internet connection as a "metered connection." This has been the best built-in way to limit updates. It's not guaranteed to work, which is why I recommend the app, but I do think you should probably do both.

Still, it is important that you still do update Windows. Blocking updates indefinitely will make your computer less safe. Instead, I recommend going to https://askwoody.com, and reenable updates when the graphic on the top tells you that it is safe.

If that's too much work, then you can try just enabling the program when you're in the middle of something, and disabling it when you don't mind if it updates.

One thing, though: never be a "seeker." Never press the button that says "check for updates." That can lead to picking up the major updates before they are ready. The version released back in October STILL isn't ready, according to the professionals on that site I linked.
  #9  
Old 01-27-2019, 06:59 AM
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You own the laptop. You do not own the copy of Windows that is on it.

With previous versions of Windows, you still did not own it. Microsoft owned it, and sold you a license to use it. They still owned it. You only licensed it.

Starting with Windows 10, you no longer license a copy of Windows. Instead, Windows is a service. You pay for the service, and Microsoft provides and controls the service. They control when it upgrades. There's none of this nonsense of hanging on to an older operating system because it actually ran your programs correctly. Nope, you upgrade when Microsoft upgrades their service.

Welcome to upgrade hell. If you use anything other than what comes with Windows, you can all but guarantee that one of Microsoft's upgrades will eventually break it.
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Old 01-27-2019, 09:04 AM
thelurkinghorror thelurkinghorror is online now
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My small tablet (or whatever) Surface Go will not allow me to download Firefox or Chrome. Whatever they can go fuck themselves.
Why? Download or install? That doesn't sound possible these days.
  #11  
Old 01-27-2019, 09:42 AM
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You own the laptop. You do not own the copy of Windows that is on it.

With previous versions of Windows, you still did not own it. Microsoft owned it, and sold you a license to use it. They still owned it. You only licensed it.

Starting with Windows 10, you no longer license a copy of Windows. Instead, Windows is a service. You pay for the service, and Microsoft provides and controls the service. They control when it upgrades. There's none of this nonsense of hanging on to an older operating system because it actually ran your programs correctly. Nope, you upgrade when Microsoft upgrades their service.

Welcome to upgrade hell. If you use anything other than what comes with Windows, you can all but guarantee that one of Microsoft's upgrades will eventually break it.
This. You own the laptop. If you want, you can install Linux and never use Windows on it. But you don't own the copy of the Software. Microsoft owns the software, and does with it what it pleases. You can either continue to use that software, or not, though.
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Old 01-27-2019, 12:01 PM
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I have bought sealed copies of Microsoft Windows. But I have never paid extra and purchased a new computer with Windows pre-installed on it, only to then wipe it and install some other operating system- that's just stupid.

MS software has always been covered with various crazy license agreements concerning its use, but that is probably of less interest to the end-user than the actual performance. Bitching definitely won't help; just install Linux.

Last edited by DPRK; 01-27-2019 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 01-27-2019, 12:44 PM
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Microsoft does not know when you are giving "very important" presentations. It just updates on a well published schedule. If you don't know that schedule and cannot be arsed to test your stuff before getting on a stage, who do you think should be blamed?
If it's a work PC or laptop, your updates may not be on Microsoft's schedule, they may be on corporate IT's schedule. And while you may know their schedule, there may not be anything you can do about it.

It used to be that when corporate pushed an update, you'd get a message that an update had been installed and you had eight hours to restart. At some point IT decided that was much too generous, and shortened it to 15 minutes -- with no option to postpone. I've frequently had that message come up five minutes before, or five minutes into, a meeting.

(One time we had a bunch of upper management onsite doing their semi-annual dog-and-pony show, and halfway through their presentation the "your PC will restart in 15 minutes" message came up. And there was nothing they could do about it, other than rush through the rest of their presentation before the laptop rebooted.
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Old 01-27-2019, 12:55 PM
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My small tablet (or whatever) Surface Go will not allow me to download Firefox or Chrome. Whatever they can go fuck themselves.
It's probably in "S Mode". You can switch out of that.


https://www.howtogeek.com/354057/wha...-10-in-s-mode/
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Old 01-27-2019, 02:17 PM
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My complaint: I am left-handed, so my first job upon getting a work or personal PC or laptop is to switch the mouse to left handed. Ever since I got the Windows 10 update, on the occasions I (unwillingly, as others have mentioned} reboot, my laptop reverts to right-handed while I input my username and password. And since I mentioned passwords, I am a grown up and if I choose to run the risk of someone unauthorized using my laptop for possibly nefarious reasons I should bloody well be able to.
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Old 01-27-2019, 02:50 PM
Llama Llogophile Llama Llogophile is online now
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(One time we had a bunch of upper management onsite doing their semi-annual dog-and-pony show, and halfway through their presentation the "your PC will restart in 15 minutes" message came up. And there was nothing they could do about it, other than rush through the rest of their presentation before the laptop rebooted.
This is astonishing to me. That we've come to the point where our tools are rendered unusable when we need them, and not much can be done about it.

Who are these people? Who at MS, knowing this sort of thing happens, allows it to continue? What will it take? Planes falling out of the fucking sky?
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Old 01-27-2019, 05:18 PM
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Do yung'uns remember when almost all the telephones in the U.S.A. were owned by The Telephone Company? (I don't recall The Phone Company ever showing up to grab their property back, but I suppose it happened to some.)
Not sure about the rest of your rant, but I have to give you points for linking to The President's Analyst.
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Old 01-27-2019, 06:26 PM
Evil Economist Evil Economist is offline
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Microsoft does not know when you are giving "very important" presentations. It just updates on a well published schedule. If you don't know that schedule and cannot be arsed to test your stuff before getting on a stage, who do you think should be blamed?
No, you idiot. You have completely failed to understand the point.

First, and this is irrelevant, but why the fuck do you think I would need to get on a stage to join a video meeting? The entire point of video meetings is that you don't have to go to a physical location to join them.

But that irrelevancy aside, the point is that my computer was (silently) set to install an update the next time I rebooted. Which would be fine, except that it rebooted unexpectedly due to a crash, at which time the update suddenly because extremely inconvenient, and at that time there was no way to delay it.

Now, a stupid person might ask why I didn't reboot prior to joining the conference. That would be because I was working prior to joining the meeting and didn't have 40 minutes to sit around with my thumb up my ass waiting for the computer to install updates. Which is why updates are set to install when rebooted, so they can be installed after the workday is over and I shut down. Except (and this is the point you utterly missed), the computer unexpectedly shut down in the middle of the workday and then prevented me from working for 40 minutes while I had time-sensitive stuff to do.

And may I make a suggestion: if the only way you can be an effective apologist is by utterly missing the point, then maybe you should re-consider being an apologist.
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Old 01-27-2019, 06:58 PM
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It's probably in "S Mode". You can switch out of that.


https://www.howtogeek.com/354057/wha...-10-in-s-mode/
Thank you.
  #20  
Old 01-29-2019, 12:45 PM
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No Microsoft doesn't own the laptop. They just own everything that you do with it, unless you use it as a space heater, paperweight, or MAYBE flashlight. That doesn't mean they own what you produce with it, but they own the methods and processes that you use to produce things with it. Don't like it? Use a different operating system to interact with your hardware, there's more and better challengers to Windows these days than there has been in the desktop world for decades.

Enjoy,
Steven
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Old 01-29-2019, 01:39 PM
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In today’s America you own your laptop about as much as a baker owns his hands.
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Old 01-29-2019, 01:56 PM
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As a now-retired IT director, I am surprised at the posts that talk about updates being performed at the next reboot, or in the next 15 minutes, or some other inconvenient time for the end user. We (the IT staff) controlled when updates would be applied. When we received notification of a pending update, we would test it on several machines and make sure that all software behaved properly after the update. Once we deemed it okay for release, we would 'push' the update to all workstations and schedule it to happen at 4:00 am or some other time when nobody should be working. We would also publish the update schedule, so people would know why their computer rebooted itself in the middle of the night.

And we used tools by Microsoft to accomplish this.
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Old 01-29-2019, 03:02 PM
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The PC I use for a community organization I help run is on Win10 and it took about half an hour to boot up last night, almost certainly because it had been powered off for a couple weeks and had a backlog of updates to install and configure. It was a new machine that I set up a few months ago, direct from HP as part of a general refresh I did on the office(new PC, cable provider, 30X faster downloads than the old DSL line, retired the old inkjet too, and a keyboard with all the letters visible instead of worn off). It took so long to boot up that one of other officers of the board said "I guess this is our new faster network, huh?" The reality is the new PC is faster, and the network is MUCH faster, but we're expecting more of it. The old stand-alone Win7 PC wasn't phoning home all the time and it didn't have nearly as many services running on it. This bloatware is crippling us in lots of ways and most people don't even know it.

Enjoy,
Steven
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Old 01-30-2019, 02:28 PM
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Do yung'uns remember when almost all the telephones in the U.S.A. were owned by The Telephone Company? (I don't recall The Phone Company ever showing up to grab their property back, but I suppose it happened to some.)
Actually, the phone company did hunt for illicit phones. I know because my father worked for New England Telephone* starting shortly after he got out of the Navy following World War II, entering as a lineman, ending as a foreman. At one point in his working life he was posted to a van that went around sniffing somehow for non-NET phones and then (under what legal authority I dunno; I was a child when he was telling us about all this) searching houses for the nonsubscribed telephone sets. I recall him telling us at the dinner table about finding phones hidden in refrigerators.

That was a very different world.


* Or whatever the name was way back then. Dad got the job because his father-in-law was a longtime phone company employee who'd wired for initial service some of the great resort hotels in the White Mountains of New Hampshire, back a century or so ago.
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Old 01-30-2019, 02:52 PM
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Man, now I'm thinking I should update something. I do have a work laptop, and i grudgingly admit they own it, but I still upgrade it manually on my own schedule (or if I'm lazy I back everything up, take it in to the IT guys and say "Here, it's a couple of versions behind in everything. Good luck.")

But MY computers are still running old OSes. Partly out of caution at not wanting to load an OS til I've read about the problems... and part me being curmudgeonly. They're macs, and I've never gotten an auto-update request or warning. If that's a thing, I'll have to be sure to find out how to opt-out.

It's MY computer, dirtwads. If I want to run Snow Leopard on my Pismo PowerBook and MacOS System 9 on my Cube, that's none of Timmy Cook's business.
  #26  
Old 01-31-2019, 09:51 AM
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This is astonishing to me. That we've come to the point where our tools are rendered unusable when we need them, and not much can be done about it.

Who are these people? Who at MS, knowing this sort of thing happens, allows it to continue? What will it take? Planes falling out of the fucking sky?
Maybe it wasn't clear in my post... this wasn't Microsoft's fault, this is how our own corporate IT department pushes out updates.
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Old 01-31-2019, 10:35 AM
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This is astonishing to me. That we've come to the point where our tools are rendered unusable when we need them, and not much can be done about it.

Who are these people? Who at MS, knowing this sort of thing happens, allows it to continue? What will it take? Planes falling out of the fucking sky?
Your tools, as an individual, may be less stable or have less uptime today than in the past, but as a society we have much more reliable infrastructure than we had in the past AND we do much more with it BECAUSE it's much more reliable. For all their competition-crushing and money-grubbing faults, Microsoft has made huge stability and performance strides in the past few years. Taking people off the yearly upgrade grind has been a huge boon to most of us. Vulnerabilities are addressed in days or hours instead of years or months. This is one of those "can't see the forest cause of all the damn trees in the way" kind of times in PC history.

Enjoy,
Steven
  #28  
Old 01-31-2019, 02:58 PM
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I also get annoyed by Windows updating itself when it wants to, but...

The alternative to Microsoft "owning" your laptop, in terms of dictating how the software updates itself isn't you owning your laptop, it's some virus, worm, or script kiddie owning it.

The threat landscape for connected-to-the-internet devices is vast, and vanishingly few people are qualified to reasonably secure a computer.

Yes, you can put Linux on it. Better stay on top of your updates, though, or someone else will gain root pretty quick.
  #29  
Old 01-31-2019, 06:28 PM
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If you move to Linux then you need to be a responsible adult and do your own updates, management, etc.

If you can't be bothered you probably are better off with Windows10.
  #30  
Old 01-31-2019, 06:35 PM
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You can set Linux up to install updates automatically. You can also set it up not to update automatically, if you so choose.
  #31  
Old 01-31-2019, 06:41 PM
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Starting with Windows 10, you no longer license a copy of Windows. Instead, Windows is a service. You pay for the service, and Microsoft provides and controls the service. They control when it upgrades. There's none of this nonsense of hanging on to an older operating system because it actually ran your programs correctly. Nope, you upgrade when Microsoft upgrades their service.
This is what Quicken has gone to. And it's damn near impossible to find a game for your PC that doesn't run through some server or other, even if it's just a stupid one player classic like SimCity. So yeah, nobody says you HAVE to agree to giving free reign of your stuff to a faceless corp--your option is to simply not have a computer. Or cell phone.
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  #32  
Old 01-31-2019, 07:51 PM
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As a now-retired IT director, I am surprised at the posts that talk about updates being performed at the next reboot, or in the next 15 minutes, or some other inconvenient time for the end user. We (the IT staff) controlled when updates would be applied. When we received notification of a pending update, we would test it on several machines and make sure that all software behaved properly after the update. Once we deemed it okay for release, we would 'push' the update to all workstations and schedule it to happen at 4:00 am or some other time when nobody should be working. We would also publish the update schedule, so people would know why their computer rebooted itself in the middle of the night.

And we used tools by Microsoft to accomplish this.
I think setting up your own WSUS or SCCM server is a bit daunting for the average user...

(I get your point, there are options, but obviously what you used at your company isn’t going to make sense for home users.)
  #33  
Old 01-31-2019, 08:42 PM
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This is what Quicken has gone to. And it's damn near impossible to find a game for your PC that doesn't run through some server or other, even if it's just a stupid one player classic like SimCity. So yeah, nobody says you HAVE to agree to giving free reign of your stuff to a faceless corp--your option is to simply not have a computer. Or cell phone.
And it's this that really angers me. Even with things you own (smart phones, cars), they don't want you to be able to fix or tinker with them.

Whenever I meet people who feel oppressed by the government I point out that I feel way more oppressed by private industry. It's now very, very difficult to hang on to software that actually works because your operating system has been "improved" and updated to the point where it won't run it anymore. This pisses me off. Where is the crazy militia that's hoarding Windows XP motherboards against the time when we truly have no control over our computers?
  #34  
Old 01-31-2019, 10:36 PM
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I think setting up your own WSUS or SCCM server is a bit daunting for the average user...

(I get your point, there are options, but obviously what you used at your company isn’t going to make sense for home users.)
Oh, without a doubt, using WSUS would be just a tad much for most people, including me.

My post was primarily in response to post #13, where Shoeless said

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoeless
One time we had a bunch of upper management onsite doing their semi-annual dog-and-pony show, and halfway through their presentation the "your PC will restart in 15 minutes" message came up. And there was nothing they could do about it, other than rush through the rest of their presentation before the laptop rebooted.
This type of situation should never occur with a competent and reliable IT department.

In my home experience, configuring Windows 10 to honor my 'Active Hours' setting for updating and rebooting has worked just fine.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/...-in-windows-10
  #35  
Old 02-01-2019, 12:43 AM
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In my home experience, configuring Windows 10 to honor my 'Active Hours' setting for updating and rebooting has worked just fine.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/...-in-windows-10
I complain about MS all the time but they did a lot of things right with Windows 10.

If you take the time to configure updates they won’t be disruptive. I’ve had it since before official release (I was lucky enough to get an advance copy at a seminar) and it has never been an inconvenience for me.

For those who can’t be troubled to set up their update system, Microsoft pushes the updates at you on their own schedule, because frankly you aren’t going to do it properly yourself.
  #36  
Old 02-01-2019, 03:11 AM
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I complain about MS all the time but they did a lot of things right with Windows 10.

If you take the time to configure updates they won’t be disruptive. I’ve had it since before official release (I was lucky enough to get an advance copy at a seminar) and it has never been an inconvenience for me.

For those who can’t be troubled to set up their update system, Microsoft pushes the updates at you on their own schedule, because frankly you aren’t going to do it properly yourself.
This is basically my experience. I've never had Win 10 do an update against my will while I'm doing something else. It just makes an announcement--something like, "It's time to do an update--now, or postpone?" I postpone it, and instead of shutting down, I use hibernate. Then, when I don't need to use the computer for anything, I do an actual restart, and let it update.
  #37  
Old 02-02-2019, 08:15 AM
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In today’s America you own your laptop about as much as a baker owns his hands.
Well, thank god for that. Because, being that I'm lying in bed alone right now, and will soon be doing something fun with both of them, it would be a tragedy if I did not own them.
  #38  
Old 02-02-2019, 03:44 PM
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Well, thank god for that. Because, being that I'm lying in bed alone right now, and will soon be doing something fun with both of them, it would be a tragedy if I did not own them.
Fiddling with your peghead?
  #39  
Old 02-03-2019, 01:36 AM
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Let me digress. On a certain on-line game there's a clickable labeled "Ready." If you click it, it says "Not Ready." (Click it a 2nd (or 3rd) time and it will say "Ready" (or "Not Ready") again. But when it says "Ready" it is NOT Ready. It's when it says "Not Ready" that it's Ready! That behavior is not specific to that game; it is ubiquitous in the post-rational era. As another example, in Youtube the muting icon will be labeled "Mute" when you're NOT muted, "Un-mute" when you are muted. Does everyone know what I'm talking about? What's the word for this phenomenon? I'll call it "Ready Reversal."
It's called "someone is reading a verb and thinking it's an adjective". It's a button you click to change your status to that one the button says, not an indication of your current status.
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  #40  
Old 02-03-2019, 03:15 AM
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As a now-retired IT director...Once we deemed it okay for release, we would 'push' the update to all workstations and schedule it to happen at 4:00 am or some other time when nobody should be working...
Considering I just started working on the computer at 2AM local time today, and will probably be running some lengthy, CPU-intensive processing in the next few hours, your schedule would be quite inconvenient for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atamasama View Post
If you take the time to configure updates they won’t be disruptive. I’ve had it since before official release (I was lucky enough to get an advance copy at a seminar) and it has never been an inconvenience for me...
You know what's the least disruptive? NO UPDATES!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigT View Post
There is software that stops Windows from pulling this shit. One I found quickly by Googling is Kill-Update. I can't vouch for it since I don't use Windows 10, but what it says it does is exactly what needs to be done.
Haven't tried that, but I will.

There are some videos on YT that purport to prevent updates completely, using multiple approaches. They don't, not even if all of them are implemented.
Quote:
You will also want to look up how to set your Internet connection as a "metered connection." This has been the best built-in way to limit updates. It's not guaranteed to work, which is why I recommend the app, but I do think you should probably do both.
It doesn't work.
Quote:
Still, it is important that you still do update Windows.
As someone who ran XP for 15 years on multiple computers with not a single update from start, I beg to differ. They may be useful for the uninformed, but are useless and very annoying for the professional. Get rid of the auto-updates and I will gladly take the risk.
  #41  
Old 02-03-2019, 03:50 AM
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...
You know what's the least disruptive? NO UPDATES!

"Metered connection" doesn't work.
Add me to the NO UPDATES! camp.

Good news is: I'm retired so not in the middle of an important conference when Microsoft decides to vomit all over my computer.
But I do play Mafia Games. "Sorry I wasn't around at EOD to help you avoid Lynching the Town Doctor. Microsoft chose the moment to unleash an hour's worth of diarrhea.

And no, Metered connection does NOT work. Someone mentions this "fix" once a year, and someone posts back. It's getting like 0.9999999999... = 1.

Why does Microsoft even have the metered connection feature if it ends up ignoring it? There's plenty of evidence that Microsoft is like a huge army of programmers with one battalion not knowing what the other battalions are doing.

The most major change I've noticed when comparing Windows 10,010 with Windows 9,010 is that many simple things have become much slower. And it takes four extra mouse actions to put the computer to sleep. Before memorizing the new, unlabeled, actions I wonder how many victims opened up other M$oft garbage looking for the Sleep button.

PS: If anyone is confused about it, No I never really thought that Microsoft owned my laptop. That was a joke.
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  #42  
Old 02-03-2019, 12:25 PM
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Considering I just started working on the computer at 2AM local time today, and will probably be running some lengthy, CPU-intensive processing in the next few hours, your schedule would be quite inconvenient for me.
And that's why we published the update schedule. If you, for example, knew that you were going to be pulling an all-nighter that particular night, we would remove your computer(s) from that particular schedule. We would work with you to determine another time when it was convenient for you to install the updates.

I should have added that we had a skeleton 3rd-shift that always was on a different update schedule than the rest of the user population.
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Old 02-03-2019, 12:37 PM
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And that's why we published the update schedule. If you, for example, knew that you were going to be pulling an all-nighter that particular night, we would remove your computer(s) from that particular schedule. We would work with you to determine another time when it was convenient for you to install the updates.
I never know when I am going to pull an all-nighter. No one controls my schedule but me. It is never convenient (or necessary) for updates to be installed. But that's just me; YMMV.
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Old 02-03-2019, 01:45 PM
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I think these update arguments are like arguing with anti-vaxxers. Some people just hate changes and updates, and they'll have lots of somewhat reasonable excuses as to why they won't update, but no work arounds or solutions are ever good enough. They hate updates, and don't want them. Sure you never know when you're going to be working, so there's no predictable update time. Well, there are plenty of times you're not using the computer for a few hours. When you leave the computer at the start of one of those periods, click the update and restart button, and let it do it's thing.

Now, I'll qualify that by saying that I see no problem in delaying updates some time to see if they cause any major problems. And there is a special place in IT hell for companies that don't bother to update their currently still on sale software to work with new releases of the OS it runs on.
  #45  
Old 02-03-2019, 01:56 PM
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I never know when I am going to pull an all-nighter. No one controls my schedule but me. It is never convenient (or necessary) for updates to be installed. But that's just me; YMMV.
Them hit the “Update” button when you go to bed. Not. Rocketsurgery.
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  #46  
Old 02-03-2019, 02:03 PM
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If I refuse to vaccinate my kids I am endangering the community.

Am I endangering the community if I refuse to update my Windows 10? Nobody will ever know because disabling the Microsoft update is not an option.

OK. I'm sure there's a way to patch the Microsoft object code, or its maze of registry items, and prevent the updates. One of you gurus might be able to do it in 5 hours. I might be able to do it in 30 hours IF clear instructions on exactly how to do it are posted online somewhere. I would hate every one of those 30 hours, and worry I was making a mistake. My hours are precious to me now.

In modern America a consensus is emerging that females must say YES before submitting to a sexual assault. Failure to wait for the YES is rape. Why is Microsoft allowed to rape me without asking for consent?
  #47  
Old 02-03-2019, 03:03 PM
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I never know when I am going to pull an all-nighter. No one controls my schedule but me. It is never convenient (or necessary) for updates to be installed. But that's just me; YMMV.
From an IT support perspective, it's a LOT easier to assist with a computer issue when all things are equal on all computers. Trying to support 5000 workstations with no standards on OS releases or versions of various software is a nightmare. From that perspective, it is an absolute necessity to install OS updates.

We always managed to find a time when the maverick end user (like you) was sleeping.
  #48  
Old 02-03-2019, 03:44 PM
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Am I endangering the community if I refuse to update my Windows 10? Nobody will ever know because disabling the Microsoft update is not an option.
Just to be clear, unpatched and vulnerable computers are a danger to the community. Botnets, spam relays, and such affect everybody. It's bad enough with IoT devices, home routers, and old phones that will never get an update, but adding in PCs that often do have an update for the problem, just makes it that much worse.

I explain to my users that running Windows, MacOS, Linux, AmigaOS, or whatever requires agreeing to install updates and upgrade the OS as necessary to cover known security problems. I don't care if they update to the new MacOS the day it's released, but they do need to move off their old version before it loses support. They don't have to update Windows during their big presentation, but during the week following IT saying the update is recommended seems reasonable. This requirement really really bothers some people, and they yell and complain and click postpone for months.

Now, since Microsoft has decided that Windows 10 is really an ad delivery system, and each new major update brings different ways of delivering ads, the updates are very annoying. That doesn't change their necessity, because as long as Microsoft (and Apple) insist on combining security, feature, and advertising all into the same update, it is still required. All of those things are good reasons to stop using Windows (and to a lesser extant MacOS), but if you do use them, then that is the pain you've signed up for. Many people are in a situation in which they have to use Windows. Nobody said this was going to be fair.
  #49  
Old 02-03-2019, 05:01 PM
thelurkinghorror thelurkinghorror is online now
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Originally Posted by echoreply View Post
Just to be clear, unpatched and vulnerable computers are a danger to the community. Botnets, spam relays, and such affect everybody. It's bad enough with IoT devices, home routers, and old phones that will never get an update, but adding in PCs that often do have an update for the problem, just makes it that much worse.
But I don't want my computer to get autism!
  #50  
Old 02-03-2019, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by echoreply View Post
Just to be clear, unpatched and vulnerable computers are a danger to the community. Botnets, spam relays, and such affect everybody. It's bad enough with IoT devices, home routers, and old phones that will never get an update, but adding in PCs that often do have an update for the problem, just makes it that much worse.
This. If you want to opt out of patching your home computers, that's your business. But one unpatched computer on a corporate network has the potential to compromise that entire network in an incredibly short amount of time. And that's why Microsoft releases patches and updates on a regular basis.
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