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  #51  
Old 02-05-2019, 11:03 AM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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I know where he's coming from - growing up in a solidly middle class home and neighborhood where everyone's grandparents were blue collar, this sort of attitude was not uncommon.

Basically the prevailing attitude was that you should keep your eyes on providing for you and yours; people who got wound up about saving the whales, or other "frivolous" stuff were viewed as suspect, not entirely within the real world, and dingy. And if they got to moralizing about it, especially politicians, they were viewed as either pretenders or absurd, and as such, deserving of scorn and hostility, as they didn't have their focus on "more important things".
Right, but that's the thing, people can actually care about things that happen that are not right in front of their noses, they can care about the welfare of those who are not you and yours.

It is very selfish and short sighted to only care about your and yours, as there are others out there who will affect you and yours. If we work to make the world a better place, then we all get to live in a better world. If you are selfish and shortsighted, and only care about what's in front of your face, then you will live in a worse world, and drag the rest of us along.

I actually never imagined that empathy and altruism would be traits that are looked on with scorn and hostility, until the republicans came along and looked upon empathy and altruism with scorn and hostility.

Kinda sickens me, actually.
  #52  
Old 02-05-2019, 11:24 AM
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You lost me at “ethnically cleanse”. Anti-immigrant policy has been going on for many decades. Under Obama it was at an 8 on a scale of 1-10, with 10 being most harmful. Trump dialed it up to 8.6, and now it just meets the threshold for ethnic cleansing. Please.
Interesting metrics, especially how президент Trump is a whopping six tenths worse.

ETA:

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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
Right, but that's the thing, people can actually care about things that happen that are not right in front of their noses, they can care about the welfare of those who are not you and yours.

It is very selfish and short sighted to only care about your and yours, as there are others out there who will affect you and yours. If we work to make the world a better place, then we all get to live in a better world. If you are selfish and shortsighted, and only care about what's in front of your face, then you will live in a worse world, and drag the rest of us along.

I actually never imagined that empathy and altruism would be traits that are looked on with scorn and hostility, until the republicans came along and looked upon empathy and altruism with scorn and hostility.

Kinda sickens me, actually.
Plus one, especially the bolded.

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  #53  
Old 02-05-2019, 02:31 PM
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The reason that the democrats seem to be the party of minorities is only in the stark contrast to the republicans who are the party against minorities. So, yeah, the minorities are going to be more represented in the party that accepts and welcomes them rather than the party that hates and vilifies them.

You do see the democrats standing up for minorities, but that is because the republicans are attacking them. It is not the democrats obsessed with minorities, it is the republicans that are obsessed with harming them.
I'm talking historically; the overt hostility is a relatively new thing from what I can see.

Either way, from where those people sit, the Democratic party isn't doing a great job of pointing out that they stand for them as well. Part of that may be that this whole political game is perceived as zero-sum game where if minorities "win", they (white working/lower middle class) necessarily lose.
  #54  
Old 02-05-2019, 03:15 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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I'm talking historically; the overt hostility is a relatively new thing from what I can see.

Either way, from where those people sit, the Democratic party isn't doing a great job of pointing out that they stand for them as well. Part of that may be that this whole political game is perceived as zero-sum game where if minorities "win", they (white working/lower middle class) necessarily lose.
And that is the problem I have with many people when they make political decisions. We do not live in a zero-sum game, or a negative sum game. We have a positive sum game, where, quite literally, the better your neighbor does, the better you do. The better that person on the other side of the country does who doesn't look like or talk like you, the better that you do.

When minorities "win", so do we.

The only way to make sure that that "other" doesn't get anything is to shift it to a negative sum game (there really is no such thing as zero sum in practice, you are either growing or shrinking, stagnation is never stable), but that means that you (all) will also have less, maybe not in the short term, if you are good enough at fighting over scraps, but in the long term, we will all, every one of us, be more impoverished.

When minorities "lose", so do we.
  #55  
Old 02-05-2019, 03:21 PM
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Interesting metrics, especially how президент Trump is a whopping six tenths worse.
Maybe it's logarithmic. Which still doesn't scale properly. If Obama has an 8 to be compared to the America-hating fuckstick, it's an 8 on a scale oc 0-1,000,000; and the America-hating fuckstick's score is 1,000,008.6.
  #56  
Old 02-05-2019, 03:25 PM
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I'm talking historically; the overt hostility is a relatively new thing from what I can see.

Either way, from where those people sit, the Democratic party isn't doing a great job of pointing out that they stand for them as well. Part of that may be that this whole political game is perceived as zero-sum game where if minorities "win", they (white working/lower middle class) necessarily lose.
So being the party of everyone is not enough?

I thought these were the "all lives matter" people. Why do they need to be singled out and reassured when the idea is that its a party for all types of people?

Seems pretty inconsistent.
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  #57  
Old 02-05-2019, 03:32 PM
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And that is the problem I have with many people when they make political decisions. We do not live in a zero-sum game, or a negative sum game. We have a positive sum game, where, quite literally, the better your neighbor does, the better you do. The better that person on the other side of the country does who doesn't look like or talk like you, the better that you do.

When minorities "win", so do we.

The only way to make sure that that "other" doesn't get anything is to shift it to a negative sum game (there really is no such thing as zero sum in practice, you are either growing or shrinking, stagnation is never stable), but that means that you (all) will also have less, maybe not in the short term, if you are good enough at fighting over scraps, but in the long term, we will all, every one of us, be more impoverished.

When minorities "lose", so do we.
I am largely in agreement with this post, but I think it's becoming more and more necessary to remind people that we do not live in a finite game. Even tho we, as individuals, may die and be out of the game, the game continues. The strategies successfully employed in finite games can be disastrous when employed in an infinite game.
  #58  
Old 02-05-2019, 03:33 PM
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So being the party of everyone is not enough?
Not if it isn't seen that way by enough people.
  #59  
Old 02-05-2019, 03:38 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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So being the party of everyone is not enough?

I thought these were the "all lives matter" people. Why do they need to be singled out and reassured when the idea is that its a party for all types of people?

Seems pretty inconsistent.
They really would have *hated* Jesus.
  #60  
Old 02-05-2019, 03:39 PM
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I know where he's coming from - growing up in a solidly middle class home and neighborhood where everyone's grandparents were blue collar, this sort of attitude was not uncommon.
Reminds me both of several cases I know of people who got kicked out of their homes for wanting to go to college, and of my cousin who took 39 years to understand that the main reason other people had jobs different from his own was a combination of "I wouldn't want to do what you do in a million years" and "I like this other thing I do" (yes, not everybody has a dream job; still, he had the kind of job which looks pretty on TV, not so pretty when you think of doing it yourself).
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  #61  
Old 02-05-2019, 09:30 PM
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They really would have *hated* Jesus.
Hell yeah they would have. Long-haired, unemployed Palestinian w/ no stuff? Why, I bet this Christ fellow doesn't even TRY to speak English!
  #62  
Old 02-05-2019, 10:08 PM
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One unfortunate thing I find myself seeing in abundance no matter the type of people I'm around is suffering and scorn. I remember a time when my levels of assholery were well above the norm - now I seem to blend in seemlessly.
  #63  
Old 02-06-2019, 10:41 AM
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Two Wrights make an airplane.
I agree with the Brazilians: the first practical heavier-than-air craft was developed by Alberto Santos-Dumont, a famous Brown Person.
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  #64  
Old 02-06-2019, 11:50 AM
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Right, but that's the thing, people can actually care about things that happen that are not right in front of their noses, they can care about the welfare of those who are not you and yours.

It is very selfish and short sighted to only care about your and yours, as there are others out there who will affect you and yours. If we work to make the world a better place, then we all get to live in a better world. If you are selfish and shortsighted, and only care about what's in front of your face, then you will live in a worse world, and drag the rest of us along.

I actually never imagined that empathy and altruism would be traits that are looked on with scorn and hostility, until the republicans came along and looked upon empathy and altruism with scorn and hostility.

Kinda sickens me, actually.

It was completely the notion that it's a zero-sum game, not racism, hostility, etc... It was viewed that a lot of that sort of thing was taking away from other stuff that the government should have been doing, or that it's directly taking resources away from what they hold dear.

It's a matter of prioritization; it's no different than worrying about poor people in some other country- most people don't bear them any ill will, but feel that we should take care of stuff closer to home first. The difference was that it was a different set of "foreign" things that were lower priority.

And I believe we see the same exact thing today; many of the GOP voters aren't actively hostile to these things, but they feel that concentrating on them takes away from what they hold dear.
  #65  
Old 02-06-2019, 01:31 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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It was completely the notion that it's a zero-sum game, not racism, hostility, etc... It was viewed that a lot of that sort of thing was taking away from other stuff that the government should have been doing, or that it's directly taking resources away from what they hold dear.
Well, it is racism when you complain that something is being taken from "us" and given to "them".
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It's a matter of prioritization; it's no different than worrying about poor people in some other country- most people don't bear them any ill will, but feel that we should take care of stuff closer to home first. The difference was that it was a different set of "foreign" things that were lower priority.
Right, and by foreign, they meant "other". All of that is simply code for racism. "Taking care of your own", and all that.

Racism doesn't have to deal with hostility. Racism can be through indifference as well.

Hostility is what comes out when indifference doesn't solve the racists problems.
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And I believe we see the same exact thing today; many of the GOP voters aren't actively hostile to these things, but they feel that concentrating on them takes away from what they hold dear.
And that is because they are ignorant and wrong.

Can they even articulate what it is that they hold dear, and how it is that it is being taken away from them by not discriminating against minorities?
  #66  
Old 02-06-2019, 02:52 PM
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You just know it all, don't you?

Not everything comes back to racism, and merely prioritizing things over redressing racial imbalances or betterment isn't necessarily racist either.

I'll use an example. One of my grandfathers was a chemical plant operator like I said upthread. We were driving somewhere near the chemical plant complex he worked at, and there were always a wide variety of weird chemical stinks in the air near them. One was particularly stinky, and I asked "What is that smell?!" and his answer was "Money", because those plants and the stinks they emitted were the vehicle by which he was able to provide for his family, and by extension, through which his community survived and thrived.

If you'd have asked him what he thought about environmental regulation aimed at eliminating those stinks, he'd probably have been all for it, right up to the point when it meant that someone would lose their jobs or be paid less. That's what I was getting at- it wasn't outright hostility, but a matter of prioritization.

And a lot of the us-vs-them mentality is where these working-class people pay their taxes, save, and do a lot of sacrificing to make sure their families are taken care of, including supporting polluting employers, etc... and then they see the government taking that tax money and effectively handing it to another group. You can see how that might irritate people. I don't doubt that there was/is racism involved, but the genesis of the feeling isn't necessarily racism- that's a modifier. The genesis is the idea that they're taking from us, who is barely making it, and giving it to them (whoever that "them" is). Had "them" been white people in Kansas, they'd still have been pissed, albeit not quite as much.

I think today's GOP voters feel much the same, except with probably less racism overall, and more rural vs. urban animus.
  #67  
Old 02-06-2019, 03:16 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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You just know it all, don't you?
Nope, I make it a point to learn something new every day.

Others make it a point to make sure that no new thought ever enters their head.
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Not everything comes back to racism, and merely prioritizing things over redressing racial imbalances or betterment isn't necessarily racist either.
Just because something is not intended with racism, doesn't mean that it has a racially disparate impact.
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I'll use an example. One of my grandfathers was a chemical plant operator like I said upthread. We were driving somewhere near the chemical plant complex he worked at, and there were always a wide variety of weird chemical stinks in the air near them. One was particularly stinky, and I asked "What is that smell?!" and his answer was "Money", because those plants and the stinks they emitted were the vehicle by which he was able to provide for his family, and by extension, through which his community survived and thrived.
Is that plant still there? Is the community still thriving? Did their sacrifice of their health and their comfort pay off in the long run?
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If you'd have asked him what he thought about environmental regulation aimed at eliminating those stinks, he'd probably have been all for it, right up to the point when it meant that someone would lose their jobs or be paid less. That's what I was getting at- it wasn't outright hostility, but a matter of prioritization.
And that is his ignorance. He doesn't care about the long term effects of the chemicals. He doesn't care about the danger it puts him in, nor the danger that it puts those who live near it, and he doesn't care about the long term effects.

If you had told him that those stinks were actually cancerginogins that would halve the expected lives of his children, he would still worry more about losing his job, wouldn't he?

If some money was lost because of safety regulations, and some deadly chemical plant explosions were averted, would he begrudge those lost jobs?

Yes, he is exactly what I am talking about, selfish and short sighted.
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And a lot of the us-vs-them mentality is where these working-class people pay their taxes, save, and do a lot of sacrificing to make sure their families are taken care of, including supporting polluting employers, etc... and then they see the government taking that tax money and effectively handing it to another group.
what happens is that they are told by the media outlets that they choose to listen to that that is happening. What is actually happening is that those tax dollars, along with others, are coming right back into his community. they are going to roads, they are going to infrastructure, they are going towards schools. They are going to his neighbors who are not as fortunate. They only see the govt "effectively handing it to another group." because they are paying more attention to what other groups are getting than to what they are.

And sure, this group gets this, and that group gets that, but then you conflate it to "they are getting all of this and that", while refusing to acknowledge that you too, are getting either this or that.

I understand that that is a perception that many have in this country, but that is a perception that is based on falsehood, and is not actually related to the real world.
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You can see how that might irritate people. I don't doubt that there was/is racism involved, but the genesis of the feeling isn't necessarily racism- that's a modifier. The genesis is the idea that they're taking from us, who is barely making it, and giving it to them (whoever that "them" is). Had "them" been white people in Kansas, they'd still have been pissed, albeit not quite as much.
Right, "them vs us",and you even acknowledged that white people getting stuff wouldn't bother them as much.

but, yeah, I can see how it would irritate people. If I believed that the govt was taking from me, giving nothing back, and giving the fruit of my labors to "others", then I may be irritated too. As that is not what is happening, and that is only a fantasy concocted by the right wing in order to cause irritation at the govt by their viewers, I know that I have to take this irritation seriously, as they do vote and do hold power, but I do not feel as though this irritation is justified, based on what is actually happening in the world.
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I think today's GOP voters feel much the same, except with probably less racism overall, and more rural vs. urban animus.
I agree that GOP voters are still operating under the same incorrect assumptions about how the world works. I do not agree that we should coddle them for having that impression. And, as they way "urban" is used by much of the right wing media, it is essentially synonymous with "black" I do not see the same daylight between that and racism.
  #68  
Old 02-07-2019, 10:20 AM
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Maybe not coddle exactly, but I think the Democratic party does itself a disservice by dismissing all this as "selfish and ignorant" or the product of mere racism.

That's been my point all along- it's NOT necessarily just a bunch of ignorant hicks out in the hinterlands who are voting for Trump.

Instead, it's a big chunk of people who SHOULD be Democratic voters in any sane universe, but they're getting described as "deplorables" or told they're not enlightened enough, or not tolerant enough, or that they're not on board with the agenda.

I mean, I get where these people are coming from. It seems like as a white male, all I hear anymore is a lot of hostility from the left about how I'm part of the patriarchy, along with a lot of general hostility about "old white men".

I can't help but think that if I was a blue collar white guy and heard that same stuff, along with seeing black people in particular benefit from government programs from which I derived no benefit, while struggling to make ends meet, that I might conclude that the Democratic party is not looking out for me. And the GOP is essentially saying the opposite- we want to lower your taxes, we want to quit these social programs, we think all this patriarchy stuff is nonsense, etc...

Why is it at all surprising that people would vote for them? It's not right, and it's not accurate, but right and accurate aren't what count in elections; it's perception. And the Democratic party is doing a terrible job AFAIK of changing their perception among the rank and file of white middle class, lower middle class and working class voters.

I would agree that most GOP-voting suburbanites are just assholes though.
  #69  
Old 02-07-2019, 10:27 AM
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I mean, I get where these people are coming from. It seems like as a white male, all I hear anymore is a lot of hostility from the left about how I'm part of the patriarchy, along with a lot of general hostility about "old white men".

I can't help but think that if I was a blue collar white guy and heard that same stuff, along with seeing black people in particular benefit from government programs from which I derived no benefit, while struggling to make ends meet, that I might conclude that the Democratic party is not looking out for me. And the GOP is essentially saying the opposite- we want to lower your taxes, we want to quit these social programs, we think all this patriarchy stuff is nonsense, etc...
But you're only seeing this stuff if you're confining yourself to Fox News or other right-wing entertainment sources. Reality is very different. And I don't think open-minded and tolerant people generally confine themselves to such sources. It might be a self-fueling cycle, but a big part of what's fueling that cycle is the bigotry, xenophobia, and general close-mindedness of those that purposefully place themselves in that bubble.
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Old 02-07-2019, 10:48 AM
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I get that- what I'm saying is that they're not going to come out of that bubble if you stand outside and tell them they're closed-minded, intolerant, too bigoted, too unenlightened, etc...

They're going to hunker down, pinch their noses and vote Trump, or whoever succeeds him, like clockwork because they're convinced you don't stand for them.

It's an opportunity for the Democratic party to exercise some of that tolerance, and gently educate these folks that these things they believe aren't actually the case, and that in general, they're for what's good for everyone.

But everyone on this side of the fence seems to be doubling down on the screeching and condescension, and that's not going to get anyone anywhere.
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Old 02-07-2019, 10:53 AM
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Maybe not coddle exactly, but I think the Democratic party does itself a disservice by dismissing all this as "selfish and ignorant" or the product of mere racism.

That's been my point all along- it's NOT necessarily just a bunch of ignorant hicks out in the hinterlands who are voting for Trump.
I don't think that they dismiss it at all. However, I do think that the news media that these people choose to consume tells them that they are dismissed.
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Instead, it's a big chunk of people who SHOULD be Democratic voters in any sane universe, but they're getting described as "deplorables" or told they're not enlightened enough, or not tolerant enough, or that they're not on board with the agenda.
Well, I will agree that the optics of calling racists "deplorable" were bad, but only because the right wing media repeated that word over and over and over again, insisting that it applied to all of their viewers, and not just the racists that it was directed at.

In a sane universe, they would be democratic voters. In the Fox Bubble, they are told not to be.
[quote]
I mean, I get where these people are coming from. It seems like as a white male, all I hear anymore is a lot of hostility from the left about how I'm part of the patriarchy, along with a lot of general hostility about "old white men".
[?quote]
And these criticisms do exist. But they exist in small scales, people on blogs and such. Sometimes there are nuances about a discussion on race and privilege that may make something as notable as "The Atlantic".

this is then distorted and amplified by the right wing media. It is that media that you are choosing to use to inform yourself that is telling you these things. All you hear is hostility, because that is all that they are showing you.

If you don't want to hear it, stop listening to it. Don't blame the democrats for Fox News repeating what you don't want to hear. They are doing it with the specific intent of making you feel exactly how you feel.
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I can't help but think that if I was a blue collar white guy and heard that same stuff, along with seeing black people in particular benefit from government programs from which I derived no benefit, while struggling to make ends meet, that I might conclude that the Democratic party is not looking out for me. And the GOP is essentially saying the opposite- we want to lower your taxes, we want to quit these social programs, we think all this patriarchy stuff is nonsense, etc...
Then you'd be wrong. But youre views would be supported by the media that you watch.
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Why is it at all surprising that people would vote for them? It's not right, and it's not accurate, but right and accurate aren't what count in elections; it's perception. And the Democratic party is doing a terrible job AFAIK of changing their perception among the rank and file of white middle class, lower middle class and working class voters.
and how would you suggest the democrats change the way that they are portrayed on Fox News?
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I would agree that most GOP-voting suburbanites are just assholes though.
Hey, that's my parents you are talking about. I could take that as an insult, as you just called my parents assholes, or I could say, yeah, they are, aren't they. I still love them, but man, they are some real assholes.
  #72  
Old 02-07-2019, 11:38 AM
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I get that- what I'm saying is that they're not going to come out of that bubble if you stand outside and tell them they're closed-minded, intolerant, too bigoted, too unenlightened, etc...

They're going to hunker down, pinch their noses and vote Trump, or whoever succeeds him, like clockwork because they're convinced you don't stand for them.

It's an opportunity for the Democratic party to exercise some of that tolerance, and gently educate these folks that these things they believe aren't actually the case, and that in general, they're for what's good for everyone.

But everyone on this side of the fence seems to be doubling down on the screeching and condescension, and that's not going to get anyone anywhere.
That's kind of my point -- in general, the Democratic party is doing what you suggest. Only Fox News and co insist that all they're doing is "doubling down on the screeching and condescension".

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  #73  
Old 02-07-2019, 11:46 AM
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Right. The Democrats can't do anything about what Fox News and right wing media says about them. That you buy into that as the "Democratic party is doing a terrible job AFAIK of changing their perception among the rank and file of white middle class, lower middle class and working class voters." just says how successful they are spreading this false narrative.

We used to have a fairness doctrine, but now there's simply nothing the Democratic party can do to stop the right wing from lying about them and their motivations.
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  #74  
Old 02-07-2019, 11:50 AM
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I don't think that they dismiss it at all. However, I do think that the news media that these people choose to consume tells them that they are dismissed.

Well, I will agree that the optics of calling racists "deplorable" were bad, but only because the right wing media repeated that word over and over and over again, insisting that it applied to all of their viewers, and not just the racists that it was directed at.
I agree- what she said wasn't unreasonable or wrong at all, but people misconstrued it and took it to mean that everyone who voted for Trump is "deplorable", not specifically the alt-right crowd, who pretty much everyone else agrees ARE deplorable.

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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
And these criticisms do exist. But they exist in small scales, people on blogs and such. Sometimes there are nuances about a discussion on race and privilege that may make something as notable as "The Atlantic".
I think it's more common than you think; I don't watch Fox News, I don't read a bunch of blogs, etc... Pretty much just here, and Reddit, and I STILL hear about it surprisingly often- it's made it as far as the upper middle class Facebook circles my wife's in- she's started using vocabulary and comments I'd only heard on here.

So I figure if you're especially sensitive to it, and a Fox News person, you're probably at the point where you think it's the prevailing non hard-right position out in the wider world.

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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
Hey, that's my parents you are talking about. I could take that as an insult, as you just called my parents assholes, or I could say, yeah, they are, aren't they. I still love them, but man, they are some real assholes.
Mine too... Some of it is explainable- and I've been trying to do that where I can, but some is just assholery- I have a guy I know who lives in a small city, and politically he's just... entirely angry and hateful toward anything that's not intended to maintain the status quo and/or bring back the 1940s and 1950s. The really bizarre part is that he's 46, not 86. In all other respects, he's a great guy, but politically, he's a complete dick. My parents and their cohorts are less so, but still have some dose of dickishness. Which is interesting, because my parents aren't racist. At worst, you can say they don't entirely understand a lot of the racial issues, but they're not hostile or hateful or bigoted.

Last edited by bump; 02-07-2019 at 11:52 AM.
  #75  
Old 02-07-2019, 01:54 PM
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Sorry, bump, anyone who voted for Trump is deplorable, There were exactly zero good reasons to vote for that clown.

Last edited by Monty; 02-07-2019 at 01:55 PM.
  #76  
Old 02-07-2019, 02:47 PM
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This. They need to be put back under their rock.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DcBDGieWkAAF59C.jpg
No, they need the rock dropped on them.

I've said before, Trump's base has eroded as much as much as it is going to; if someone* is still supporting Donny Two-scoop's policies at this time, nothing he nor his opponents say or do between now and November 2020 is going to move that needle. The Dems need to woo members of the Apathy Party -- those who did not bother to vote at all -- to their side.

*I'm looking at you, McConnell
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Old 02-07-2019, 02:48 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Originally Posted by bump View Post
I think it's more common than you think; I don't watch Fox News, I don't read a bunch of blogs, etc... Pretty much just here, and Reddit, and I STILL hear about it surprisingly often- it's made it as far as the upper middle class Facebook circles my wife's in- she's started using vocabulary and comments I'd only heard on here.

So I figure if you're especially sensitive to it, and a Fox News person, you're probably at the point where you think it's the prevailing non hard-right position out in the wider world.
Well, sure, if you go looking for it. that's a different matter. We are here, having deep nuanced conversations, and it is very often that if one sentence were taken out of the paragraph, then it would look pretty bad. I see people doing that from time to time, and it is certainly not an honest approach, but it does seem to be effective.

We sometimes talk about hard things, things that are not discussed in polite company, and we are often cold and analytical about it.

If you judge democrats by excerpting bits of the conversations that they have online, then you are going to have a negative impression. I think that is true of any group throughout the history of forever. (well, not the online part, but the "private conversations" part)
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Mine too... Some of it is explainable- and I've been trying to do that where I can, but some is just assholery- I have a guy I know who lives in a small city, and politically he's just... entirely angry and hateful toward anything that's not intended to maintain the status quo and/or bring back the 1940s and 1950s. The really bizarre part is that he's 46, not 86. In all other respects, he's a great guy, but politically, he's a complete dick. My parents and their cohorts are less so, but still have some dose of dickishness. Which is interesting, because my parents aren't racist. At worst, you can say they don't entirely understand a lot of the racial issues, but they're not hostile or hateful or bigoted.
My parents are the type of racists that insist that they are not racist because they've never lynched anyone. Well, that's a start...

It took quite a while, but they have now accepted that there is a gay member in their church, and they are no longer working to prevent him from being able to take communion with them, so that's coming a long way. They brag about how tolerant that they have become due to this.

But, then my father does believe that Obama wasn't born here, and my mother believes that Hillary had Vince Foster killed and was responsible for the Benghazi attack. (not just that it happened under her watch, but that she planned it.)

now, I get that the last person in the world that a parent considers to be an authority on matters worldly is their own kid, but I have tried to get through to them, using mostly positive tactics, though I will admit to getting frustrated and having some raised voice conversations with them as well.

Point is, if your own family can't get through to you, who can? If they won't listen to their son, why will they listen to MSNBC?
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Old 02-07-2019, 02:54 PM
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Sorry, bump, anyone who voted for Trump is deplorable, There were exactly zero good reasons to vote for that clown.
See, this I need to disagree with.

Anyone who still supports trump is deplorable, but there were reasons one may have voted in 2016 for Trump that are not. Misguided, short sighted, ignorant, or even stupid, sure, but deplorable, that's only about half.

I get it. I've been in periods of desperation where I would try something different, even if I didn't know if it would work, because what I am doing now is not working.

There were those who really thought that they would get their coal mining jobs back. They are lied to and groomed, pretty much from birth these days, that democratic economic principles are inferior to conservative ones, and so, if the economy is not working for them, they go with who they think are better.

They are poorly informed, and it only took them 2 years to forget who was in charge during the worst economic crisis since the depression, but they think that the choice that they are making is good for the economy.
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Old 02-07-2019, 03:50 PM
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If you'd have asked him what he thought about environmental regulation aimed at eliminating those stinks, he'd probably have been all for it, right up to the point when it meant that someone would lose their jobs or be paid less. That's what I was getting at- it wasn't outright hostility, but a matter of prioritization.
Only, a lot of those regulations actually create jobs. And a lot of measures which improve a factory's environmental output actually improve its financial results as well. But the same people who assume that recycling your solvent will always cost more than not doing so tend to assume that anything which improves one aspect of anything will be because of something else losing. The idea that improving one aspect can have multiple positive impacts will be met with disbelief or scorn: if you truly believe and try to prove, and to provide examples, of cases where improving environmental behavior also improved safety, the health of workers and the bottom line, then that means you're either lying or stupid enough to believe the pink snake oil you're peddling.

It's a matter of seeing everything as zero sums.
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Old 02-07-2019, 05:02 PM
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FWIW, I've been using my grandfather's attitude as an example; he died in 1998 and was from the era when people were very loyal to their employers in a way we don't even dream of today. It was an era of having a job for life, and where providing for your family was your first priority, and anything that threatened that was to be fought tooth and nail.

There is an article out there called "The Jacksonian Tradition" from 1999 that is actually written as an explanation of US foreign policy, but it rings extremely true when describing the folk community I grew up in in Texas in the 1970s, 80s and 90s.

In particular it describes the populist thinking of lower and middle class Protestant white males, and the folk codes that they live by, and how this affects their politics and by extension, their foreign policy choices.

It's dead-on accurate from what I can tell, and kind of eerie, considering it was written some 20 years ago. I recommend reading it and then thinking about how the Democratic party could actually reach that crowd, rather than just dismissing them as ignorant or closed minded or whatever.
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Old 02-07-2019, 05:36 PM
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FWIW, I've been using my grandfather's attitude as an example; he died in 1998 and was from the era when people were very loyal to their employers in a way we don't even dream of today. It was an era of having a job for life
Not true, actually. That's what's been sold for the last Og-knows-how-many years, but in reality, people have always changed jobs. Not one of my grandparents, great-uncles, parents or uncles worked at a single job or even at a single place (if you go one generation higher, you get one person who didn't change place of employment but did change positions: from scion to lord). And people don't change jobs due to disloyalty, they change jobs either because they've gotten fired, because the time-limited job is over or because they've gotten a better offer - same reasons people have been changing jobs since time immemorial, for anybody who wasn't a serf or a slave.
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  #82  
Old 02-07-2019, 05:38 PM
The King of Soup The King of Soup is offline
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"Loyalty to employers," in early to mid-20th century Texas, can usually be translated as "they murdered all the union organizers a long time ago." The article you cite, a bizarre attempt to drag the ignorant, violence-prone, bigoted ignoramus Jackson to some higher plateau of respectability through nonsensical megasyllabic casuistry, is a good example of anhistorical false equivalence, of which we've all had too much, but nothing else.

The historical parallels are kind of obvious. "Reaching out" to ignorant bigots doesn't do much except to allow them just enough light in their damp basement to regrow the malignancy they wanted all along.

Protestant white males have often been the most malleable and easily-led shock troops for the worst racist and undemocratic movements in almost any place where they've been recorded.
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Old 02-07-2019, 05:43 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Originally Posted by bump View Post
FWIW, I've been using my grandfather's attitude as an example; he died in 1998 and was from the era when people were very loyal to their employers in a way we don't even dream of today. It was an era of having a job for life, and where providing for your family was your first priority, and anything that threatened that was to be fought tooth and nail.
Ah, the era of strong unions, and employers who were loyal to their employees.

Unfortunately, that all changed based on the conservative principles of union busting and maximizing shareholder profit.
Quote:

There is an article out there called "The Jacksonian Tradition" from 1999 that is actually written as an explanation of US foreign policy, but it rings extremely true when describing the folk community I grew up in in Texas in the 1970s, 80s and 90s.

In particular it describes the populist thinking of lower and middle class Protestant white males, and the folk codes that they live by, and how this affects their politics and by extension, their foreign policy choices.
Alright, that's really long, and I did a quick quick skim skim to see if there were any latch points that I could get a TL;DR on it, but it is really just a big wall of text. I may try banging my head against it later tonight, but for now...

Any excerpts that you feel are indicative of what you are saying here? Any TL;DR you would like to offer?
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It's dead-on accurate from what I can tell, and kind of eerie, considering it was written some 20 years ago. I recommend reading it and then thinking about how the Democratic party could actually reach that crowd, rather than just dismissing them as ignorant or closed minded or whatever.
I don't think that democrats dismiss them as ignorant or close minded. In these conversations about politics and policy, I do say that the problem with them is that they are ignorant, but the reason for that is because I am searching for ways to break through, and end that ignorance. Unfortunately, their close mindedness makes that hard.

To take rhetoric that we use in these discussion on this board, and complain that it would not be well received by the population that we are discussing does not raise any concerns with me. I am not talking to them now. I am not trying to reach out to them. We are in the pit, even, and we are complaining about them.

But, that is exactly the sot of thing that they do. Someone will say, "Hey that guy on that message board thinks that you are ignorant and close minded." and they will take offense to that, and will vow to never support a democrat. Or Hillary will say that racists are deplorable, and suddenly, everyone starts saying that Hillary said that all republicans are deplorable, and that is the message that gets more resonance.

Hillary said that she wanted to provide job training and education to the coal miners who were being put out of work, and the message that they took from that was that she was going to put them out of work.

There really is no way to reach someone who doesn't want to be reached.
  #84  
Old 02-08-2019, 12:37 AM
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See, this I need to disagree with.

Anyone who still supports trump is deplorable, but there were reasons one may have voted in 2016 for Trump that are not. Misguided, short sighted, ignorant, or even stupid, sure, but deplorable, that's only about half.

I get it. I've been in periods of desperation where I would try something different, even if I didn't know if it would work, because what I am doing now is not working.

There were those who really thought that they would get their coal mining jobs back. They are lied to and groomed, pretty much from birth these days, that democratic economic principles are inferior to conservative ones, and so, if the economy is not working for them, they go with who they think are better.

They are poorly informed, and it only took them 2 years to forget who was in charge during the worst economic crisis since the depression, but they think that the choice that they are making is good for the economy.

Nope. Nothing thete to show that stance is not deplorable. There is no excuse today to be ill-informed. On top of that, there is Trump for all he obviously is.

Deplorable is as deplorable does.

Last edited by Monty; 02-08-2019 at 12:38 AM.
  #85  
Old 02-08-2019, 09:05 AM
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Nope. Nothing thete to show that stance is not deplorable. There is no excuse today to be ill-informed. On top of that, there is Trump for all he obviously is.

Deplorable is as deplorable does.
As long as we hold that line, we hold a line that there is no forgiveness or possibility of redemption for someone who was fooled into voting for trump. As long as there is no possibility of forgiveness, there is no motive for repentance, and they have no reason to ever change their minds.

It is hard enough to reach them, even harder to convince them, but if we tell them that no matter how they change, we will never accept them, then no outreach will be effective.

We need to be willing to forgive, and forgive graciously, anyone who is willing to acknowledge their error, so long as they, as their penance, promise to vote against Trump in the future. As a bonus, they could vote "D", but that's not likely to go over well, as they still, for some reason, think that the party of union busting and maximizing shareholder profit is looking out for the guy who wants a lifelong job that will support his family.

I mean, seriously, if you read bump's post, and if you managed to read any of his link, then you will see that these people are gullible, and are easily fooled by populist rhetoric. They seem to have a problem with the democratic party that it didn't do enough to protect them from the republican policies that they support. That sort of cognitive dissonance cannot be solved easily, but you also cannot hold someone accountable for things that are beyond their capability of comprehending.

Baby steps.
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Old 02-08-2019, 10:02 AM
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"Loyalty to employers," in early to mid-20th century Texas, can usually be translated as "they murdered all the union organizers a long time ago." The article you cite, a bizarre attempt to drag the ignorant, violence-prone, bigoted ignoramus Jackson to some higher plateau of respectability through nonsensical megasyllabic casuistry, is a good example of anhistorical false equivalence, of which we've all had too much, but nothing else.

The historical parallels are kind of obvious. "Reaching out" to ignorant bigots doesn't do much except to allow them just enough light in their damp basement to regrow the malignancy they wanted all along.

Protestant white males have often been the most malleable and easily-led shock troops for the worst racist and undemocratic movements in almost any place where they've been recorded.
WTF are you talking about? Texas isn't known as a strong labor union kind of place, but it's not entirely devoid of them either. My grandfather for example, was a dues-paying union member for his entire career, which after his military service in WWII was with one company in one town for something like 35 years. Unions aren't uncommon at all in heavy industry- oil, manufacturing, etc... Where they aren't super common is in more everyday jobs- it's unlikely to find unionized construction workers or service workers, for example.

The article doesn't glamorize Andrew Jackson at all- it barely even mentions him, except in pointing out that the sort of political/social strain of his in American society is alive and well, and then going on to define it, and its effects on American foreign policy.

Put broadly, it roughly describes American foreign policy of the 20th century and how it's a little perplexing from the outside. It then goes on to describe the Jacksonian tradition in the context of the other "currents" of American political life which he names after famous politicians- Hamiltonian, Jeffersonian and Wilsonian.

Probably the most telling point in the article is the notion of the "folk community" and the stark distinction drawn by Jacksonians as to whether you're inside or outside. Basically the contention is that if you're within this community, you get the benefits, and outside the community is a howling wilderness. This community sort of grows or shrinks with respect to the topic at hand- in terms of foreign policy, the community is defined at a national level, but in internal politics, it's defined more in terms of background, income and yes, race. The article describes very clearly where the "Us-vs-Them" mentality comes from. In particular, a lot of this derives from ancient Scots-Irish traditions evolved in the Scottish borders where there was constant low level warfare and this sort of attitude meant survival. These people's descendants immigrated to America, and found that the attitudes held true on the frontier vs. hostile Native Americans and others. So they've carried forward to the present day.

Another point is the fiercely individualistic streak within the community- everyone's entitled to their opinion, and collectivist/socialist leanings are severely discouraged.

If you read the article and comprehend it, and think about all sorts of stuff like say the BLM stuff and the opposition to it, the support of Trump & the GOP, and even anti-vaccination nuts, it ALL ties back to this Jacksonian folk tradition.

I'm not so sure it's gullibility on their part; it's more of a feeling that they're right, and that the ways of the past are still valid, and to hell with anyone who would tell them what to think or that they're wrong.
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Old 02-08-2019, 10:19 AM
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  #88  
Old 02-08-2019, 10:24 AM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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WTF are you talking about? Texas isn't known as a strong labor union kind of place, but it's not entirely devoid of them either. My grandfather for example, was a dues-paying union member for his entire career, which after his military service in WWII was with one company in one town for something like 35 years. Unions aren't uncommon at all in heavy industry- oil, manufacturing, etc... Where they aren't super common is in more everyday jobs- it's unlikely to find unionized construction workers or service workers, for example.

The article doesn't glamorize Andrew Jackson at all- it barely even mentions him, except in pointing out that the sort of political/social strain of his in American society is alive and well, and then going on to define it, and its effects on American foreign policy.

Put broadly, it roughly describes American foreign policy of the 20th century and how it's a little perplexing from the outside. It then goes on to describe the Jacksonian tradition in the context of the other "currents" of American political life which he names after famous politicians- Hamiltonian, Jeffersonian and Wilsonian.
It is perplexing from the outside because it is wrong, and we are perplexed as to why people would follow a political philosophy that is so wrong.

May have been more appropriate when we had to struggle just to survive, and thinking about your neighbor meant sacrificing yourself, thinking about tomorrow meant not getting through today.

But that is not the world we live in, and using the political philosophies of that world are a mismatch to the one we live in.
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Probably the most telling point in the article is the notion of the "folk community" and the stark distinction drawn by Jacksonians as to whether you're inside or outside. Basically the contention is that if you're within this community, you get the benefits, and outside the community is a howling wilderness. This community sort of grows or shrinks with respect to the topic at hand- in terms of foreign policy, the community is defined at a national level, but in internal politics, it's defined more in terms of background, income and yes, race. The article describes very clearly where the "Us-vs-Them" mentality comes from. In particular, a lot of this derives from ancient Scots-Irish traditions evolved in the Scottish borders where there was constant low level warfare and this sort of attitude meant survival. These people's descendants immigrated to America, and found that the attitudes held true on the frontier vs. hostile Native Americans and others. So they've carried forward to the present day.
I can see how they would be useful when you are trying to conquer and hold land against a hostile native population, but those attitudes should not have carried forward to the present day when we are no longer at war with the natives.
Quote:

Another point is the fiercely individualistic streak within the community- everyone's entitled to their opinion, and collectivist/socialist leanings are severely discouraged.
So, entitled to their opinion, as long as it is the correct opinion?

Anyway, I suppose that means that if it is winter, and your neighbor's house burns down, then you should *not* offer them shelter, as that is a collectivist/socialist idea.
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If you read the article and comprehend it, and think about all sorts of stuff like say the BLM stuff and the opposition to it, the support of Trump & the GOP, and even anti-vaccination nuts, it ALL ties back to this Jacksonian folk tradition.
Right, people trying to hold onto a world that has not existed in over a century.
Quote:
I'm not so sure it's gullibility on their part; it's more of a feeling that they're right, and that the ways of the past are still valid, and to hell with anyone who would tell them what to think or that they're wrong.
You are right, it's not just gullibility, it is stubbornness as well. They are holding onto a negative sum game mindset. In a negative sum game, you resent someone getting more than they deserve, because that means that someone (maybe you) gets less than they deserve. In fact, by definition, in a negative sum game, the aggregate is that there is less than is deserved, so no matter how you slice it, someone is getting less than they deserve, and you need to be damned sure that's not you.

But we don't live in that world anymore. We live in a positive sum game environment. The cool thing about positive sum game, is that if someone gets more than they deserve, *so do you*!

Look around you, do you really think that we get what we deserve? Hell no, we are getting far, far, far more than we deserve. We deserve to be scratching out bare survival from the dirt as thousands of generations of our ancestors did. We deserve to be naked, exposed to the elements, and perpetually hungry.

Why do we get more than we deserve? Because other people got more than they deserved. The only way this fails is if it turns into a negative sum game, and the primary way for that to happen is if enough people treat it as a zero sum game.

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  #89  
Old 02-08-2019, 11:39 AM
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We need to be willing to forgive, and forgive graciously, anyone who is willing to acknowledge their error, so long as they, as their penance, promise to vote against Trump in the future.
I'd love to forgive, and forgive graciously these people...except they do not, and at this point it seems will never, acknowledge their error. They have far too much invested in sticking to their guns to ever, ever admit they were wrong and should have voted for Hillary. They would rather see their own children starve to death first.
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  #90  
Old 02-08-2019, 11:40 AM
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Look, I'm not trying to defend them. But I think it's instructive and worthwhile to understand them, and also worth trying to figure out a way to reach out to them that doesn't involve telling them they're wrong, ignorant, benighted or behind the times. All that'll do is increase our already ridiculous polarization.

And folk norms, mores and attitudes are HARD to get out from under. They're like religion, except that I suspect that they're even more pervasive than that- it's like your instruments are calibrated a certain way and you can't even see how you're off from normal.
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Old 02-08-2019, 11:53 AM
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Look, I'm not trying to defend them. But I think it's instructive and worthwhile to understand them, and also worth trying to figure out a way to reach out to them that doesn't involve telling them they're wrong, ignorant, benighted or behind the times. All that'll do is increase our already ridiculous polarization.

And folk norms, mores and attitudes are HARD to get out from under. They're like religion, except that I suspect that they're even more pervasive than that- it's like your instruments are calibrated a certain way and you can't even see how you're off from normal.
Great. How do you intend to do the underlined...carefully worded Hallmark cards? English may be the most flexible and innovative language in the history of the world (or maybe not, I dunno) but there's only so many ways to say something. Eventually, you have call a spade a spade, and there's only so far you can go without hurting somebody's feelings.

If these people can't re-calibrate their instruments to get on the same planet as the rest of us, I can't generate that much sympathy for them. Sorry.
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  #92  
Old 02-08-2019, 11:57 AM
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Once they stop watching Fox news, or reading right wing blogs and memes, then the Democrats have a chance to reach out, but until then they are being constantly programmed that Democrats and liberals are evil and enemies of America that want their families to be killed by illegally immigrating MS-13 members, and they want to abort all of their babies too.

How can you reach out to people that are willingly letting themselves be programmed to hate your existence?
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Old 02-08-2019, 12:36 PM
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I'd love to forgive, and forgive graciously these people...except they do not, and at this point it seems will never, acknowledge their error. They have far too much invested in sticking to their guns to ever, ever admit they were wrong and should have voted for Hillary. They would rather see their own children starve to death first.
Some have, and for those, I say, we should not scorn them for their earlier mistakes. To do so is to prevent others from joining in on their repentance. They don't even have to "admit" their mistake, just commit to not repeating it.

If they see that we have welcomed the repentant, and showered them with affection, they will be much more inclined to own up to their mistake than if we continue to punish them and refuse to forgive, that'll make the dig even deeper.

Not saying we are going to get all, or most, or even a decent plurality. But if we get enough, we can prevent Trump from being re-elected, and that is enough.
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Old 02-08-2019, 12:38 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Once they stop watching Fox news, or reading right wing blogs and memes, then the Democrats have a chance to reach out, but until then they are being constantly programmed that Democrats and liberals are evil and enemies of America that want their families to be killed by illegally immigrating MS-13 members, and they want to abort all of their babies too.

How can you reach out to people that are willingly letting themselves be programmed to hate your existence?
Can we buy fox news? Would it work if we did, or would they just retreat to further right wind outlets?
  #95  
Old 02-08-2019, 12:51 PM
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Some have, and for those, I say, we should not scorn them for their earlier mistakes.
When I find these "some" who have, I'll make a note to keep my interactions scorn-free. Haven't had the opportunity, so far.
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  #96  
Old 02-08-2019, 01:42 PM
Folacin Folacin is offline
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Can we buy fox news? Would it work if we did, or would they just retreat to further right wind outlets?
Ooh, maybe that's what Bezo's could do with his cash. And then slowly swing it over to rational but still conservative reporting (to forestall someone trying to start up a new version).
  #97  
Old 02-08-2019, 02:02 PM
SteveG1 SteveG1 is offline
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I actually never imagined that empathy and altruism would be traits that are looked on with scorn and hostility, until the republicans came along and looked upon empathy and altruism with scorn and hostility.

Kinda sickens me, actually.
Fucking DITTO.
  #98  
Old 02-08-2019, 02:06 PM
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Well, it is racism when you complain that something is being taken from "us" and given to "them".

Right, and by foreign, they meant "other". All of that is simply code for racism. "Taking care of your own", and all that.

Racism doesn't have to deal with hostility. Racism can be through indifference as well.

Hostility is what comes out when indifference doesn't solve the racists problems.


And that is because they are ignorant and wrong.

Can they even articulate what it is that they hold dear, and how it is that it is being taken away from them by not discriminating against minorities?
They did articulate something along the lines of "Trump is hurting the wrong people". Tossed in some "blood and soil" crap too.
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Old 02-08-2019, 03:20 PM
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...
I actually never imagined that empathy and altruism would be traits that are looked on with scorn and hostility, until the republicans came along and looked upon empathy and altruism with scorn and hostility.

Kinda sickens me, actually.
Blame Ayn Rand.

Everyone with a college education eventually is exposed to the philosophies of The Bitch. If you have Liberal DNA you are horrified.

If you have Conservative DNA you embrace it enthusiastically and name your son after her. You also use it to justify your greed and your contempt for others who never had the same privileged chances in life that you had.
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Old 02-08-2019, 03:39 PM
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I get that- what I'm saying is that they're not going to come out of that bubble if you stand outside and tell them they're closed-minded, intolerant, too bigoted, too unenlightened, etc...

They're going to hunker down, pinch their noses and vote Trump, or whoever succeeds him, like clockwork because they're convinced you don't stand for them.

It's an opportunity for the Democratic party to exercise some of that tolerance, and gently educate these folks that these things they believe aren't actually the case, and that in general, they're for what's good for everyone.

But everyone on this side of the fence seems to be doubling down on the screeching and condescension, and that's not going to get anyone anywhere.
If you've ever tried to "gently educate" a trump voter you wouldn't be talking like this.
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