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  #101  
Old 02-08-2019, 03:48 PM
enipla enipla is offline
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Originally Posted by Ulfreida View Post
If you've ever tried to "gently educate" a trump voter you wouldn't be talking like this.
Yep. The reason we are so divided isn't because the left suddenly turned in to a 'bunch of commies'. It's because the right has chosen of their own free will to worship a moronic, racist criminal as their king.
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  #102  
Old 02-08-2019, 09:15 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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When I find these "some" who have, I'll make a note to keep my interactions scorn-free. Haven't had the opportunity, so far.
I live in trumplandia. I have had people who voted for trump renounce that decision. Some have even apologized to me for not believing me when I told them that he wasn't going to be a good choice.

Tiny minority, maybe 10% or so far of people I know voted for trump have done so, but it's a start, and if I am not gracious in accepting their apology and giving forgiveness, then they will not stay on our side, and will be less likely to get others to come over as well.

I said, "I told you so", after people told me that they regretted their decision to support Bush back in the late 2000's, and that was not the right play. It angered them, and they went on to support McCain and even eventually trump.

It was fun to throw their mistake in their faces, but ultimately, very unproductive.
  #103  
Old 02-08-2019, 10:26 PM
JB99 JB99 is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
As long as we hold that line, we hold a line that there is no forgiveness or possibility of redemption for someone who was fooled into voting for trump. As long as there is no possibility of forgiveness, there is no motive for repentance, and they have no reason to ever change their minds.
I don’t understand this at all.

These people voted for stupid leaders with stupid policies. I don’t expect them to vote D just to gain “repentance” or “redemption.” I expect them to vote D because the Republican Party’s policies are inherently fucking stupid.
  #104  
Old 02-09-2019, 08:32 AM
DesertDog DesertDog is offline
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Originally Posted by CaptMurdock View Post
Eventually, you have call a spade a spade, and there's only so far you can go without hurting somebody's feelings.
Well, why not? After all, they do.

More seriously, I don't buy the notion that all Trump supporters are racists, but all the racists are Trump supporters and he caters to them.
  #105  
Old 02-09-2019, 12:33 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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I don’t understand this at all.

These people voted for stupid leaders with stupid policies. I don’t expect them to vote D just to gain “repentance” or “redemption.” I expect them to vote D because the Republican Party’s policies are inherently fucking stupid.
But they do not see that those policies are stupid. And that is the problem, in order to get them to understand that those policies are stupid, we have to be willing to forgive them for not understanding that these policies are stupid.

If we shove it in their faces, they are going to dig in.
  #106  
Old 02-09-2019, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
But they do not see that those policies are stupid. And that is the problem, in order to get them to understand that those policies are stupid, we have to be willing to forgive them for not understanding that these policies are stupid.

If we shove it in their faces, they are going to dig in.
Right after the election I wrote that Democrats/the Left needed to get past the anger and engage Trump voters calmly in order to understand their motivations so their perceptions could be countered effectively. I argued that confronting them and haranguing them would only make them more defensive, would only drive them further into their positions. I argued that the path forward should include an empathetic effort on the part of Democrats/the Left, a real attempt to understand what those voters were thinking and feeling, rather than just assuming that anyone "just knew" why they voted for Trump. I argued that failing to do so would only increase the likelihood that we continue down this path instead of the one that Democrats/the Left wants. I was met with much resistance; I don't recall that anyone backed me on it at all, actually.
  #107  
Old 02-09-2019, 04:16 PM
kaylasdad99 kaylasdad99 is online now
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
But they do not see that those policies are stupid. And that is the problem, in order to get them to understand that those policies are stupid, we have to be willing to forgive them for not understanding that these policies are stupid.

If we shove it in their faces, they are going to dig in.
But the FACT* is that they are WRONG to not see those policies as stupid. Simply telling them that (with of WITHOUT forgiveness) HAS NOT BEEN WORKING.

Got any suggestions that might actually work? If you consider one, please keep in mind that it has to be one that they will accept WITHOUT COERCION. ISTM that this will necessarily involve letting the whole world blow up in their faces, and voluntarily consenting to experiencing the facial blow-up along with them.

Please forgive me for not being delighted at that prospect.








*Fact: a non-debatable statement with a 1:1 correspondence to objective reality
  #108  
Old 02-09-2019, 06:28 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
Right after the election I wrote that Democrats/the Left needed to get past the anger and engage Trump voters calmly in order to understand their motivations so their perceptions could be countered effectively. I argued that confronting them and haranguing them would only make them more defensive, would only drive them further into their positions. I argued that the path forward should include an empathetic effort on the part of Democrats/the Left, a real attempt to understand what those voters were thinking and feeling, rather than just assuming that anyone "just knew" why they voted for Trump. I argued that failing to do so would only increase the likelihood that we continue down this path instead of the one that Democrats/the Left wants. I was met with much resistance; I don't recall that anyone backed me on it at all, actually.
I see, as I seem to receive the same resistance over just not rubbing someone's face in a mistake that they actually are willing to apologize and repent for.

Right after the election, when tempers were higher, I can see not willing to get past the anger immediately. Now it is 2 years later, if we are still holding this much of a grudge, then that's just not healthy.

I don't really know about reaching out to them, as I don't know how that is even possible. They do live in their own world that does not seem to be based on reality, and any threat to their fantasy picture of the world is met with extreme hostility. I don't know if being nice will be any more effective than being angry.

All I know is that when we get defectors from that camp, we should try to hold onto them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaylasdad99 View Post
But the FACT* is that they are WRONG to not see those policies as stupid. Simply telling them that (with of WITHOUT forgiveness) HAS NOT BEEN WORKING.

Got any suggestions that might actually work? If you consider one, please keep in mind that it has to be one that they will accept WITHOUT COERCION. ISTM that this will necessarily involve letting the whole world blow up in their faces, and voluntarily consenting to experiencing the facial blow-up along with them.
Do I have any ways of getting them to come over, to realize that the polices that they support are actually hurting them as much or more than the ones they want to hurt? En masse, that works on everyone like a silver bullet?

No, not really.

But, when they do come over, for one reason or another, it is easy to drive them back by not accepting their apology with grace.
  #109  
Old 02-09-2019, 10:55 PM
kaylasdad99 kaylasdad99 is online now
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
I see, as I seem to receive the same resistance over just not rubbing someone's face in a mistake that they actually are willing to apologize and repent for.

Right after the election, when tempers were higher, I can see not willing to get past the anger immediately. Now it is 2 years later, if we are still holding this much of a grudge, then that's just not healthy.

I don't really know about reaching out to them, as I don't know how that is even possible. They do live in their own world that does not seem to be based on reality, and any threat to their fantasy picture of the world is met with extreme hostility. I don't know if being nice will be any more effective than being angry.

All I know is that when we get defectors from that camp, we should try to hold onto them.


Do I have any ways of getting them to come over, to realize that the polices that they support are actually hurting them as much or more than the ones they want to hurt? En masse, that works on everyone like a silver bullet?

No, not really.

But, when they do come over, for one reason or another, it is easy to drive them back by not accepting their apology with grace.
If it’s that easy to drive them back, then they weren’t true apologies. After all a true apology must exist without the expectation of forgiveness.

That said, I feel I can gracefully communicate acceptance of their apologies and at the same time convey that their apologies don’t invalidate the fact that their behavior was stupid.
  #110  
Old 02-10-2019, 02:26 AM
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Very often the initial reach-out from someone who's realizing their previous position maaaay have been pretty stupid isn't an apology; it's questions. That's the phase where, if someone's answer produces negative emotions in the questioner, they will stop questioning themselves and decide you and your people are a bunch of asses.

Think of parallel behaviors regarding other subjects. If your child comes asking questions about how is baby made and you get flustered and respond "you'll find out when you're older" or get angry that your precious child is wondering about such a thing (note that they may not even know there is a correlation between "baby" and "sex", depending on how old)... will that lead to someone who knows that tab A shouldn't go into slot B for quite a while and without appropriate precautions? If someone asks you a math question, what's better, helping them figure it out, giving them a straight answer at a level they can comprehend, or saying "I can't believe you don't see it, man you're so stupid"?
  #111  
Old 02-10-2019, 03:47 AM
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An apology at this late stage is simply insufficient. It takes recognition of how awful a choice Trump was to anyone with a working, non-bigoted, mind in the first place. And it takes getting out and stumping for his removal from office.
  #112  
Old 02-10-2019, 05:25 AM
nelliebly nelliebly is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
I see, as I seem to receive the same resistance over just not rubbing someone's face in a mistake that they actually are willing to apologize and repent for.

Right after the election, when tempers were higher, I can see not willing to get past the anger immediately. Now it is 2 years later, if we are still holding this much of a grudge, then that's just not healthy.

I don't really know about reaching out to them, as I don't know how that is even possible. They do live in their own world that does not seem to be based on reality, and any threat to their fantasy picture of the world is met with extreme hostility. I don't know if being nice will be any more effective than being angry.

All I know is that when we get defectors from that camp, we should try to hold onto them.


Do I have any ways of getting them to come over, to realize that the polices that they support are actually hurting them as much or more than the ones they want to hurt? En masse, that works on everyone like a silver bullet?

No, not really.

But, when they do come over, for one reason or another, it is easy to drive them back by not accepting their apology with grace.
If a Trump supporter comes to me and says, "Man, I can't believe I was stupidenough to get suckered by that idiot," I'm not going to call that person a deplorable. I will, however, ask him/her, "Why DID you get suckered? What can you do to make things right for those you damaged by supporting Trump? And do you understand now why so many on the other side are angry that Trump supporters betrayed essential American values?"

I don't care if they foolishly thought Trump was going to bring back coal jobs; I care that they were willing to shrug off his misogyny, racism, ignorance, and cruelty in order to get those coal jobs back. They put self-interest above their fellow Americans. That doesn't mean I'm going to scream invectives at them, but they have to fully recognize and repent in order to rebuild trust and be welcomed into the fold they scorned for so long.

Beyond that, it's not our reluctance to forgive that's going to keep them from admitting the error of their ways; it's the vitriol and intransigence of their own party.
  #113  
Old 02-10-2019, 07:12 PM
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xenophon41 xenophon41 is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
I see, as I seem to receive the same resistance over just not rubbing someone's face in a mistake that they actually are willing to apologize and repent for.

Right after the election, when tempers were higher, I can see not willing to get past the anger immediately. Now it is 2 years later, if we are still holding this much of a grudge, then that's just not healthy.
Your response here regarding empathy for Trump voters is actually very similar to the responses many of us gave Snowboarder Bo immediately after the election, and I think pretty representative of the general resistance. Summed up by your next paragraph:
Quote:
I don't really know about reaching out to them, as I don't know how that is even possible. They do live in their own world that does not seem to be based on reality, and any threat to their fantasy picture of the world is met with extreme hostility. I don't know if being nice will be any more effective than being angry.
"How to avoid reactive recrimination over past misdeeds" is not the same problem as "how to affect political recovery in the face of extremism."
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Last edited by xenophon41; 02-10-2019 at 07:14 PM. Reason: clarity
  #114  
Old 02-10-2019, 09:07 PM
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Fair Rarity Fair Rarity is offline
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he pissed off the people who were pretending to be morally superior to me, and any of the stuff coming out about him is either unimportant stuff that those moralizers are, again, pretending to care about, or it's better than the alternative of having those morally superior folks get their way and have one of their own in office. The ends (putting those people in their place) justifies the means.
I know this post is a little old the way things move these days, but I just noticed this thread.

This point intrigues me. I HATE all the time the press is giving to rural Trump voters. But I also can't help but wonder why anyone would vote for him other than party loyalty. The cult of personality he has around him is utterly baffling. But this point... it helps.

MAGAers think we Never Trumps/Dems are full of shit. They see that Trump is probably full of shit too, at least on some things, but he's calling out "our" shit and therefore is some kind of great equalizer. A man of the people, calling out the system and the mainstream things. They're COMPLETELY ignorant because they don't see how he manipulates the press, that he'll say ANYTHING to get them on his side, but he speaks to the inner voice inside of them that says "I can't possibly be wrong so the other people must be stopped, no matter the cost." If he's not lying (in their eyes) all of the time, they can believe him most of the time in some cognitive dissonance fog of placation. "Sure, he probably fucked that porn star, but them illegals are killing thousands of white Americans every day!"

I did feel bad for these people prior to the campaign of 2016. I've lived in rural areas and red/purpley areas. I don't look down on them from my liberal ivory tower. Generally speaking, bigots excepted. But it's tribalism now. It's not about whose policies can actually help a former factory worker or a besieged border rancher, but teams: R vs D. They picked R so everyone to the left and enter is the Enemy, not merely just an adversary. Trump cemented their R because he helps them unless their worst instincts onto others, assuming that we too are doing the same to them. And generally we're not.
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