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  #351  
Old 11-18-2018, 04:58 PM
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I don't think being a minority or a woman is a free pass to level the charge of sexism or racism without evidence. It doesn't seem like there is evidence at this point.
...Ocasio-Cortez shared her story. That story is "evidence." So we do have "evidence at this point". I worked in the conference and events industry for fifteen years. I saw the very same assumptions during "partner" and "spouse" events all the time. There isn't anything extraordinary about what Ocasio-Cortez shared on twitter. If this is the first time you've heard about this sort of thing then I think it shows just how important it is that these sorts of stories get shared.
  #352  
Old 11-18-2018, 05:12 PM
alphaboi867 alphaboi867 is offline
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...The Capitol Police consists of thousands of officers who have had just a few days to study the pictures of dozens of newly elected members of Congress. Being a member of Congress means that you can bypass security screenings, like metal detectors...
Do members(-elect) of Congress not get some kind of security badge/ID card?
  #353  
Old 11-18-2018, 05:18 PM
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And a general knowledge about how members of Congress can bypass security.

Even if she wasnít talking about police, maybe she was talking about staff from Congress involved in her orientation. With several dozen new members elected just days ago, is it any surprise they are not universally recognized?

This has all the hallmarks of ďDonít you know how important I am!?!Ē I have no patience for that arrogance.

ETA: and whatís so awful about being an intern, that you feel degraded by being compared to one?
Yes, perhaps she wasn't talking about the Capitol Police, hence my previous question. As for her supposed self-importance and arrogance, I don't see it here, and certainly no indication that she felt degraded in any way. How do you get all that from a simple tweet?
  #354  
Old 11-18-2018, 05:25 PM
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I don't think being a minority or a woman is a free pass to level the charge of sexism or racism without evidence. It doesn't seem like there is evidence at this point.
She barely said anything. What she said is entirely consistent with "this kind of thing happens to me frequently, and it sucks, and I think it's likely related to my race and gender".
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  #355  
Old 11-18-2018, 05:32 PM
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She barely said anything. What she said is entirely consistent with "this kind of thing happens to me frequently, and it sucks, and I think it's likely related to my race and gender".
I believe that's what she thinks. I don't have any reason to believe it is an accurate assessment. Or inaccurate for that matter.
  #356  
Old 11-18-2018, 05:35 PM
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She barely said anything. What she said is entirely consistent with "this kind of thing happens to me frequently, and it sucks, and I think it's likely related to my race and gender".
And that was the point. She should have ended the paraphrase after "sucks." She has absolutely no evidence that this was done based upon her race and gender. It is not like this is the first year that women or minorities have been elected to Congress. The guards are used to them.
  #357  
Old 11-18-2018, 05:38 PM
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I believe that's what she thinks. I don't have any reason to believe it is an accurate assessment. Or inaccurate for that matter.
Fine with me.
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  #358  
Old 11-18-2018, 05:39 PM
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And that was the point. She should have ended the paraphrase after "sucks." She has absolutely no evidence that this was done based upon her race and gender. It is not like this is the first year that women or minorities have been elected to Congress. The guards are used to them.
It was a tweet. That's all it was. Not a big deal. Doesn't require some trail of evidence for such an innocuous statement.
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  #359  
Old 11-18-2018, 06:00 PM
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I gotta say - I am no fan of Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. She quickly came off to me as foolishly believing the hype the press was writing about her and too full of herself. Her apparent desire to create a Tea Party of the Left is stupid. I do not believe it is good for the country or the party.

But dang the way the Right's media machine hangs on to her every tweet and word, obsesses over her, is really really weird.

Are they wanting to tear her down because they somehow are afraid of the movement that she is one pebble of? Or are they hoping to make her and her more left of center positioning the face of the Democratic party and be able to fight those positions more than the more center left positions most who vote Democratic would endorse?

Why are they so fixated on her?
  #360  
Old 11-18-2018, 06:16 PM
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It was a tweet. That's all it was. Not a big deal. Doesn't require some trail of evidence for such an innocuous statement.
An implication or accusation of racism or sexism is not "an innocuous statement." The Capitol Police who protect her (while she attempts to take our means of protection away) like anyone in society deserve to be treated respectfully and only be accused of something when there is actual evidence of it.

We argued about Dr. Ford in the Kavanaugh thread, but at least Dr. Ford had evidence: She said that I personally remember Kavanaugh doing these things to me. AOC is merely stating that she thinks that these people have done a horrible thing to her when she cannot point to any objective facts that make her think so. Did they call her sweetheart or little lady? Did they say that she looks just like the little Cuban girl that was hired to clean the toilets? If they did none of this, then why the accusation?
  #361  
Old 11-18-2018, 06:24 PM
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An implication or accusation of racism or sexism is not "an innocuous statement." The Capitol Police who protect her (while she attempts to take our means of protection away) like anyone in society deserve to be treated respectfully and only be accused of something when there is actual evidence of it.

We argued about Dr. Ford in the Kavanaugh thread, but at least Dr. Ford had evidence: She said that I personally remember Kavanaugh doing these things to me. AOC is merely stating that she thinks that these people have done a horrible thing to her when she cannot point to any objective facts that make her think so. Did they call her sweetheart or little lady? Did they say that she looks just like the little Cuban girl that was hired to clean the toilets? If they did none of this, then why the accusation?
Horrible? Cite that she said it was horrible? Sounds to me like she was describing something annoying.
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  #362  
Old 11-18-2018, 06:28 PM
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I don't think being a minority or a woman is a free pass to level the charge of sexism or racism without evidence. It doesn't seem like there is evidence at this point.
I generally agree with you about the no-free-pass thingy.
But I don't see Ocasio-Cortez making any accusations of racism or sexism against Capitol Police.

As has been pointed out upthread, she was responding to a very douchey accusation of lying about her experience.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
"People keep giving me directions to the spouse and intern events instead of the ones for members of Congress [facepalm]"
ArthurSchwartz
At dinner with a congressman. He said there were no intern events today that he knows of. His staff said same. #liar
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
- Dem Spouse + Member luncheon were at the same time today. I was sent to spouse event.

- Last night I was stopped bc it was assumed I was an intern/staffer

- Next time try believing women + people of color when they talk about their experiences being a woman or person of color
In this exchange, who is making the unfair assumptions?
The original post from Ocasio-Cortez, though indicating exasperation, does not appear to be accusatory at all.

As for evidence of her experience being indicative of gender-based discrimination, biases, or assumptions, Representative Katherine Clark offered this good-humored yet telling response.
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Katherine Clark
Well, no one's mistaking me for an intern these days, but I've definitely been stopped from going to the floor of the House because "spouses aren't allowed."
  #363  
Old 11-18-2018, 06:47 PM
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Of course it's accusatory. I mean, it's not a big deal at all really, she was mistaken for a different role than she had. Not a big deal. But I take her implication that she interpreted it as sexism. I tend to dismiss both - both the implication that it was sexist, and the otherwise innocuous action of the Capitol Police. She is young for her role, and most Congress people are male. A harmless assumption is harmless and nothing.
  #364  
Old 11-18-2018, 06:48 PM
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An implication or accusation of racism or sexism is not "an innocuous statement." The Capitol Police who protect her (while she attempts to take our means of protection away) like anyone in society deserve to be treated respectfully and only be accused of something when there is actual evidence of it.. . .

. . . AOC is merely stating that she thinks that these people have done a horrible thing to her when she cannot point to any objective facts that make her think so.
Can you point us to where she made such implications or accusations against Capitol Police?
Got any objective facts or actual evidence to support your own accusations?
Still waiting for you to specify what statements she made in the original article that were "whiny".

Don't you think that Ocasio-Cortez, ...
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...like anyone in society deserve to be treated respectfully and only be accused of something when there is actual evidence of it...
?
  #365  
Old 11-18-2018, 06:48 PM
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In this thread: AOC says, "Housing is ridiculous in the DC metro, and I'm expected to be there for months without any income."

Conservatives, "AOC IS A WHINY LITTLE GIRL THAT NEEDS TO SHUT UP AND BEG FOR MONEY TO PAY RENT!"


AOC "Here's some shit that happens, and it's a regular story for women and minorities."

Conservatives, "SHE'S CALLING EVERYONE RACISTS! OMG!"


Do you all need a trigger warning before reading her tweets? Here you go: TRIGGER WARNING: These comments may attack white male fragility.

Last edited by Chisquirrel; 11-18-2018 at 06:49 PM. Reason: Added a nut
  #366  
Old 11-18-2018, 06:59 PM
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Of course it's accusatory. I mean, it's not a big deal at all really, she was mistaken for a different role than she had. Not a big deal. But I take her implication that she interpreted it as sexism. I tend to dismiss both - both the implication that it was sexist, and the otherwise innocuous action of the Capitol Police. She is young for her role, and most Congress people are male. A harmless assumption is harmless and nothing.
Well, yeah, it was accusatory, Schwartz flat out called her a liar. This was not a harmless assumption.

There are no other accusations in that exchange, so I have to assume that that is the accusation that you are talking about.

Anything else is general annoyance, or a response to a leveled accusation of her being a liar.
  #367  
Old 11-18-2018, 07:00 PM
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Keep in mind that she is also very young looking for her age. If the security officer had mistaken her for a child of a Congressman, I could understand. As you pointed out, it would show a level of unprofessionalism on his part, but not sexism.
...we don't know exactly what happened. We have a tweet. A sentence. You can't conclude that there was "no sexism displayed" on the basis of a sentence.

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The problem I have with the accusation is that today, much like an accusation of sexual assault, a person is guilty when the accusation was made, and with no way to prove his innocence. When he protests his innocence, he is further accused of "mansplaining' which is apparently now a separate crime punishable by scorn.
Conflating "Last night I was stopped bc it was assumed I was an intern/staffer" with "an accusation of sexual assault" is some mighty impressive "conflating." A world class effort.

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When others, like me, state that we have been in substantially similar circumstances, we are attempted to be silenced because we cannot possibly say that it was not sexism, again, despite the fact that we have endured similar treatment that clearly was not sexism or racism.
Stop playing the victim. Nobody is trying to silence you here. The only people that could theoretically silence you are the mods.

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Prior to one trial, I was voir diring the jury and I asked if anyone believe that my client sitting at the table was guilty as he sat there. A prospective juror said that she actually thought that my client (who was also in a suit) was the attorney and that I was the one on trial. We all had a good laugh over that.
I once had a client never once look me in the eye. Never spoke to me. When I asked them questions they responded to my white 2IC instead of me. The racism was so blatant my 2IC felt the need to apologize to me even though they had done nothing wrong.

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Now imagine if I was black.
How about doing this instead.

Instead of asking me to imagine you are black, how about you imagine you are black. Is it possible for you to do such a thing?

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Would I be justified in saying that this juror was racist and just assumed that because I was black, I was a defendant and could not possibly have been an attorney?
Quite possibly. That's the problem with hypotheticals. They are hypothetical. I'm gonna go with yes the juror was racist. Because this hypothetical juror was wearing a KKK hood and had a swastika tattoo.

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These accusations simply provide unsubstantiated and unfounded claims that do more to divide us than anything Donald Trump has ever thought of doing.
ROFL!

Just this morning the President of the United States called Democratic Rep. Adam Schiff "little Adam Schitt". The President of the United States is an immature little schitt who was single-handedly responsible for the highest midterm turnout in a century. Trump has actually divided the nation. Ocasio-Cortez is not even close. What an absurd assertion.
  #368  
Old 11-18-2018, 07:03 PM
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Well, yeah, it was accusatory, Schwartz flat out called her a liar. This was not a harmless assumption.

There are no other accusations in that exchange, so I have to assume that that is the accusation that you are talking about.

Anything else is general annoyance, or a response to a leveled accusation of her being a liar.

Schwartz seems too quick on the trigger. Dick move. But AOC was leveling a charge of sexism in my interpretation. Do you disagree?

Last edited by Bone; 11-18-2018 at 07:04 PM.
  #369  
Old 11-18-2018, 07:16 PM
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Of course it's accusatory. I mean, it's not a big deal at all really, she was mistaken for a different role than she had. Not a big deal. But I take her implication that she interpreted it as sexism. I tend to dismiss both - both the implication that it was sexist, and the otherwise innocuous action of the Capitol Police. She is young for her role, and most Congress people are male. A harmless assumption is harmless and nothing.
I disagree that Ocasio-Cortez sharing what she experienced and indicating exasperation is equivalent to an accusation of sexism.
However, if you're dismissing the idea that her being mistaken for a congres member's spouse was "sexist" (which, AFAIK she hasn't claimed), would you also reject the notion that it could be indicative of an inherent bias in a male-dominated congress?
Could that not possibly be what Ocasio-Cortez was implying? And do you consider that equivalent to an accusation of sexism?

Do you also dismiss the remarks made by Katherine Clark regarding her own experience?
And can you appreciate that what seems innocuous to you might not seem so to the women actually experiencing such encounters?

And, again, from the exchange between Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Arthur Schwartz, who do you feel is the one making the unfair assumptions/accusations?



Sorry. Whole lotta questions, I know, but none of them rhetorical; I promise.
  #370  
Old 11-18-2018, 07:24 PM
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If Iím wrong, Iíll apologize or amend my comments as appropriate.
But would you change your opinion?
  #371  
Old 11-18-2018, 07:55 PM
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The problem is that many times us white guys from a hundred miles away get treated poorly because of inadvertance or cluelessness from people. If I go to an unfamiliar courthouse, I might be mistaken for a defendant instead of an attorney, or sometimes on the weekend, if I go to a grocery store and wear a certain color shirt, I am mistaken for a store employee
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As i pointed out in my forbidden opinion, as I white male, I have been mistakenly treated poorly and that it is obvious that it was not based upon my race or sex
Maybe it's because your attitude, look, and actions causes these people to determine that you are a douche bag? Now, I'M not saying you are a douche bag, because I don't know you and I don't want to insult you, especially not in this forum, but maybe people who look at you and see something and they judge on that? Perhaps you appear to them to be a slovenly, idiotic, crime-committing white guy and they are judging you on that? I'm a white guy and no one has ever mistaken me for a grocery store worker or a defendant in a crime trial. Perhaps it's some sort of aura you project?

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So according to your post, anytime someone makes an accusation of racism or sexism (or as in other threads, sexual assault), no white or male person is entitled to even opine about its truth or falsity and must indeed accept the accusation as true because we cannot discern what racism and sexism is? Fuck that. That is nothing more than attempting to silence the opinion of white males
I'm under the opinion that anyone, white or not, should listen to an accusation and go from there. I've taken great pains to ensure I don't denigrate someone for how they feel. Who are you to tell someone how they should feel about something?

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Why is this whiny, self entitled millennial...
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How does she have time to tweet anyways? Shouldn't she be out panhandling for money so that she can pay her living expenses until January?
To paraphrase our Dear Leader "She's a Congresswoman and you are not"

You are a guy on a message board.

Here is an actual US Senator saying "Ďthe leftí will start a civil war unless federal highway system abolished"

Can you link to any posts you made that show your outrage over what this Senator said or is your outrage only limited to new Congresswomen who you disagree with?
  #372  
Old 11-18-2018, 08:16 PM
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...Ocasio-Cortez shared her story. That story is "evidence." So we do have "evidence at this point".
Stories are not evidence. Evidence needs to be corroborated. It needs to be able to withstand cross-examination. Contradictory information, if there is any, needs to be considered.

Her tweet is NOT evidence.
  #373  
Old 11-18-2018, 08:17 PM
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But would you change your opinion?
Are you asking that if I apologize, would it be an incencere apology?

Let me put the shoe on the other foot. If my assumptions proved accurate, would YOU change your opinion?
  #374  
Old 11-18-2018, 08:19 PM
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Stories are not evidence. Evidence needs to be corroborated. It needs to be able to withstand cross-examination. Contradictory information, if there is any, needs to be considered.

Her tweet is NOT evidence.
The sad part is that you believe you are factually correct.
  #375  
Old 11-18-2018, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
Stories are not evidence.
...of course it can be.

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Evidence needs to be corroborated.
No it doesn't.

Quote:
It needs to be able to withstand cross-examination.
Not at all. Evidence can fail cross-examination. It doesn't stop being evidence though.

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Contradictory information, if there is any, needs to be considered.
Abso-fucking-lutely.

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Her tweet is NOT evidence.
Her tweet IS evidence. Nuff said.
  #376  
Old 11-18-2018, 08:35 PM
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I disagree that Ocasio-Cortez sharing what she experienced and indicating exasperation is equivalent to an accusation of sexism.
However, if you're dismissing the idea that her being mistaken for a congres member's spouse was "sexist" (which, AFAIK she hasn't claimed), would you also reject the notion that it could be indicative of an inherent bias in a male-dominated congress?
Could that not possibly be what Ocasio-Cortez was implying? And do you consider that equivalent to an accusation of sexism?

Do you also dismiss the remarks made by Katherine Clark regarding her own experience?
And can you appreciate that what seems innocuous to you might not seem so to the women actually experiencing such encounters?

And, again, from the exchange between Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Arthur Schwartz, who do you feel is the one making the unfair assumptions/accusations?



Sorry. Whole lotta questions, I know, but none of them rhetorical; I promise.
It could certainly be inherent(implicit) bias. The person stopping her or mis directing her could have been an example of sexism, it's just not enough evidence to conclude that way. I do consider inherent bias (I think you mean implicit?) to be on the spectrum of sexism.

I didn't follow Clark's statement. Sure, different people have different experiences.

Schwartz seems like a jerk in the exchange and in the greater wrong.

As with many charges of racism and sexism, I think weak implications of such do a disservice to actual instances of the same and weaken the charges overall.
  #377  
Old 11-18-2018, 08:41 PM
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Schwartz seems too quick on the trigger. Dick move. But AOC was leveling a charge of sexism in my interpretation. Do you disagree?
Yes, I disagree.

I can see how, if you squint at it and want it to be so enough, you can see how her reply to being blatantly accused of lying was presuming that the accusation was due to her gender or ethnicity, when she said "Next time try believing women + people of color when they talk about their experiences being a woman or person of color", but that is in answer to his accusation of her being a liar, not an accusation itself.

But her initial statement, then one that Schwartz was "too quick on the trigger" about, had nothing to do with sexism.

All of the stuff about capitol police and everything else is just what is motivationally read into her tweets that mention nothing of the sort at all.


Out of curiosity, do you think that Schwartz was just "too quick on the trigger", or was he absolutely wrong in making an unfounded accusation that she is a liar?
  #378  
Old 11-18-2018, 08:44 PM
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Maybe it's because your attitude, look, and actions causes these people to determine that you are a douche bag? Now, I'M not saying you are a douche bag, because I don't know you and I don't want to insult you, especially not in this forum, but maybe people who look at you and see something and they judge on that? Perhaps you appear to them to be a slovenly, idiotic, crime-committing white guy and they are judging you on that? I'm a white guy and no one has ever mistaken me for a grocery store worker or a defendant in a crime trial. Perhaps it's some sort of aura you project?
Let's say that you are right (and nice job BTW of skirting and avoiding the rule against personal insults). That would mean that it is on me to do some inner soul searching and not try to be that way.

But if I was black and still had these same character flaws, I could merely bleat that it was solely because of my race, have the left believe that it is absolutely true, suppress any disagreement, and I could go on with my douchebaggery uncorrected.

Do you now see the problem with that? Minorities, who also have character flaws, never correct those flaws because the blame is on whitey.
  #379  
Old 11-18-2018, 09:03 PM
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Let's say that you are right (and nice job BTW of skirting and avoiding the rule against personal insults). That would mean that it is on me to do some inner soul searching and not try to be that way.

But if I was black and still had these same character flaws, I could merely bleat that it was solely because of my race, have the left believe that it is absolutely true, suppress any disagreement, and I could go on with my douchebaggery uncorrected.

Do you now see the problem with that? Minorities, who also have character flaws, never correct those flaws because the blame is on whitey.
I did not see anything about you having character flaws in this hypothetical, only that you "appear" to have character flaws based on your appearance. That people presume that you are a person of ill repute, or even worse, a grocery store employee, based on nothing more than what you look like.

I am sure that when people who are first put off by their initial impressions, and get to know you, they will know that they were wrong to judge you based on your appearance.

Now, if you are white, you can shave up that beard a bit, run a comb through your hair, put on some deodorant, and people may no longer make presumptions based on your slovenly appearance.

What would you change if you were black?
  #380  
Old 11-18-2018, 09:44 PM
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Are you asking that if I apologize, would it be an incencere apology?
I mean: would you no longer consider Ocasio-Cortez's tweet to be a display of "grade A arrogance"?

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Let me put the shoe on the other foot. If my assumptions proved accurate, would YOU change your opinion?
I'm not quite sure what your assumptions are, but if some compelling evidence comes up to indicate that Ocasio-Cortez is behaving in an arrogant manner or making baseless accusations of sexism, certainly my opinion of her will change for the worse.
  #381  
Old 11-18-2018, 10:09 PM
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Do you now see the problem with that? Minorities, who also have character flaws, never correct those flaws because the blame is on whitey.
Can you prove this?
  #382  
Old 11-18-2018, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
Let's say that you are right (and nice job BTW of skirting and avoiding the rule against personal insults). That would mean that it is on me to do some inner soul searching and not try to be that way.

But if I was black and still had these same character flaws, I could merely bleat that it was solely because of my race, have the left believe that it is absolutely true, suppress any disagreement, and I could go on with my douchebaggery uncorrected.

Do you now see the problem with that? Minorities, who also have character flaws, never correct those flaws because the blame is on whitey.

But you are not black. You should focus on what you should do so people don't think you are a douche bag. Don't worry about other people who aren't you.
  #383  
Old 11-18-2018, 10:49 PM
Not Carlson Not Carlson is offline
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It could certainly be inherent(implicit) bias. The person stopping her or mis directing her could have been an example of sexism, it's just not enough evidence to conclude that way. I do consider inherent bias (I think you mean implicit?) to be on the spectrum of sexism.
Thanks for responding, and you're probably right about "implicit" being the word I should have used.
I also consider implicit bias to be on the spectrum of sexism. But notice how we're going from "baseless accusations of sexism are bad" to discussing whether Ocasio-Cortez's short tweet might have been intended to point out a bias existing on a "spectrum of sexism". And this in a thread that has already pivoted away from the ridiculous accusations that Ocasio-Cortez is financially irresponsible and self-entitled for her comments regarding moving to DC.

Quote:
I didn't follow Clark's statement. Sure, different people have different experiences.
Clark was indicating that, as a women in congress, she's had similar experiences.
At least that was my take.

Recognizing that different people have different experiences is nothing more than recognizing the obvious.
Recognizing that what seems like no big deal to oneself may actually be more significant to someone with different experience is important.

Quote:
Schwartz seems like a jerk in the exchange and in the greater wrong.
I'm glad we are in agreement on this.

Quote:
As with many charges of racism and sexism, I think weak implications of such do a disservice to actual instances of the same and weaken the charges overall.
And I would like to say I'm in agreement with you on this point also,
except that I see that argument being used to downplay, dismiss, and flat-out attack justifiable complaints against various forms of sexism and racism perceived to be less important.

I would agree that overblown allegations of sexism or racism in response to the slightest perception of such, regardless of evidence or intent, do a disservice to those fighting blatant and malicious discrimination.
But I don't see that in Ocasio-Cortez's remarks.

What I do see is the likes of WillFarnaby, UltraVires, and Sam Stone making baseless accusations and casting ill aspersions against Ocasio-Cortez without providing evidence.
  #384  
Old 11-19-2018, 01:01 AM
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
I did not see anything about you having character flaws in this hypothetical, only that you "appear" to have character flaws based on your appearance. That people presume that you are a person of ill repute, or even worse, a grocery store employee, based on nothing more than what you look like.

I am sure that when people who are first put off by their initial impressions, and get to know you, they will know that they were wrong to judge you based on your appearance.

Now, if you are white, you can shave up that beard a bit, run a comb through your hair, put on some deodorant, and people may no longer make presumptions based on your slovenly appearance.

What would you change if you were black?
I might need to change exactly the same things. But why would I do that if I can just hang a claim of racism upon someone? That is my entire point: you assume that the charge against the black person is one of racism when it might just the same be the same charge against me. That is exactly how this conversation has gone:

Black me: I was thought to be a criminal defendant just because I am black!
Poster 1: How do you know that? Maybe you just need to shave your beard a bit?
Poster 2: How dare you minimize the experiences of black people? They are in a better position to judge racism than you.
Poster 1: But he has not put forth any evidence that the criticism leveled against him was based upon race.
Poster 2: That's easy for a white guy to say from hundreds of miles away!
  #385  
Old 11-19-2018, 02:14 AM
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I gotta say - I am no fan of Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. She quickly came off to me as foolishly believing the hype the press was writing about her and too full of herself. Her apparent desire to create a Tea Party of the Left is stupid. I do not believe it is good for the country or the party.

But dang the way the Right's media machine hangs on to her every tweet and word, obsesses over her, is really really weird.

Are they wanting to tear her down because they somehow are afraid of the movement that she is one pebble of? Or are they hoping to make her and her more left of center positioning the face of the Democratic party and be able to fight those positions more than the more center left positions most who vote Democratic would endorse?

Why are they so fixated on her?
I'd suggest that it's because a sizable number of Democrats are similarly fixated on her. From the boards, I certainly already knew about AOC before this thread was begun. But I had to go hunting to find Lucy McBath, who won a R+8 district in Georgia and Kendra Horn, who won an R+10 district in Oklahoma. I didn't hear a thing about Rashida Tlaib and Ilhan Omar, the first two muslim women elected to Congress, either. There are quite a number of impressive women joining Congress this year, but very little has been said about them, whereas AOC was in the national limelight before ever even winning her primaries.

Personally, I'd venture to guess that the difference is that Miss Ocasio-Cortez is physically attractive.

This whole thread is likely just using politics as an excuse on both sides to salivate.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 11-19-2018 at 02:15 AM.
  #386  
Old 11-19-2018, 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
Personally, I'd venture to guess that the difference is that Miss Ocasio-Cortez is physically attractive.

This whole thread is likely just using politics as an excuse on both sides to salivate.
While, I can't speak to the possible Pavlovian responses of other posters, I'll say that she was already on my radar because TYT has been championing her as a model progressive who successfully primaried a corporate-backed establishment Dem by running a grass-roots campaign. That's damn impressive.

She's stayed on my radar because Republicans keep saying dumb shit about her.
  #387  
Old 11-19-2018, 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
Personally, I'd venture to guess that the difference is that Miss Ocasio-Cortez is physically attractive.

This whole thread is likely just using politics as an excuse on both sides to salivate.
...not only is this insulting to Ocasio-Cortez: its insulting to all of the posters taking part in this thread. And its also very very wrong. The only person (that I'm aware of) who has decided to talk about her "attractiveness" is you. That's not a reflection of "both sides." Its a reflection of you.
  #388  
Old 11-19-2018, 04:04 AM
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...not only is this insulting to Ocasio-Cortez: its insulting to all of the posters taking part in this thread. And its also very very wrong. The only person (that I'm aware of) who has decided to talk about her "attractiveness" is you. That's not a reflection of "both sides." Its a reflection of you.
I doubt the commentary on the appearances of politicians or celebrities will ever be effectively suppressed by either fiat or ostracism. Too much joy is had with witticisms such as the Cheeto in charge.

Last edited by octopus; 11-19-2018 at 04:05 AM.
  #389  
Old 11-19-2018, 04:40 AM
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AOC:
Quote:
Maybe instead of Republicans drooling over every minute of footage of me in slow-mo, waiting to chop up word slips that I correct in real-tomd, they actually step up enough to make the argument they want to make: that they don’t believe people deserve a right to healthcare.
  #390  
Old 11-19-2018, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
But if I was black and still had these same character flaws, I could merely bleat that it was solely because of my race, have the left believe that it is absolutely true, suppress any disagreement, and I could go on with my douchebaggery uncorrected.

Do you now see the problem with that? Minorities, who also have character flaws, never correct those flaws because the blame is on whitey.
i strongly urge you to take a step back from this conversation, read what you wrote, and consider whether one might find a nearly identical post in the most disgusting corners of the Internet.

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Originally Posted by Not Carlson View Post
I mean: would you no longer consider Ocasio-Cortez's tweet to be a display of "grade A arrogance"?
If new information or context came to light, that would be the basis of my apology.
  #391  
Old 11-19-2018, 08:27 AM
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If new information or context came to light, that would be the basis of my apology.
Well and good.

I suggest that the information presented after your post (#331), while not being certain proof that Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is NOT in her heart of hearts an arrogant race-baiting drama queen, DOES indicate that any such accusation against her is unwarranted at this stage.

You exercised critical thinking and raised some good points countering the ridiculous accusations about Ocasio-Cortezís innocuous remarks regarding her upcoming move to DC.
I see Sam Stoneís offering of this new line of attack as being equally meritless.

Also, I would like to second your words to UltraVires.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
i strongly urge you to take a step back from this conversation, read what you wrote, and consider whether one might find a nearly identical post in the most disgusting corners of the Internet.
Quite so.
  #392  
Old 11-19-2018, 09:10 AM
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Well and good.

I suggest that the information presented after your post (#331), while not being certain proof that Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is NOT in her heart of hearts an arrogant race-baiting drama queen, DOES indicate that any such accusation against her is unwarranted at this stage.
To be clear, I donít think she was directly saying that she was treated poorly by Capitol police or staff because of her race. I think she leveled the accusation of racism at the guy who cast doubt on those things happening because he talked with a Republican congressman about there being no intern events that day. I think she was making a narrow claim that right-wingers doubting her stories were being sorta racist and sexist.

In my opinion, her original statements about being thought of as a spouse or intern were just garden-variety arrogance.
  #393  
Old 11-19-2018, 09:22 AM
Bijou Drains Bijou Drains is offline
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2 reasons she gets lots of publicity -

she beat an entrenched incumbent in the primary.
she's from NYC which is the media capital of the US so it's really easy for her to get on CNN, ABC, CBS, etc
  #394  
Old 11-19-2018, 09:22 AM
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Ravenman is reading my mind and posting what I want to before I post it.
  #395  
Old 11-19-2018, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
In my opinion, her original statements about being thought of as a spouse or intern were just garden-variety arrogance.
I wouldn't assume that this
Quote:
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez:
"People keep giving me directions to the spouse and intern events instead of the ones for members of Congress [facepalm]"
is any kind of arrogance.

(Heck. I complain about my work all the time.
And sometimes it's not even because I'm arrogant.)
  #396  
Old 11-19-2018, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
To be clear, I don’t think she was directly saying that she was treated poorly by Capitol police or staff because of her race. I think she leveled the accusation of racism at the guy who cast doubt on those things happening because he talked with a Republican congressman about there being no intern events that day. I think she was making a narrow claim that right-wingers doubting her stories were being sorta racist and sexist.

In my opinion, her original statements about being thought of as a spouse or intern were just garden-variety arrogance.
Okay, so she said nothing about the Capitol police then. As I said earlier:

Quote:
Yes, perhaps she wasn't talking about the Capitol Police, hence my previous question. As for her supposed self-importance and arrogance, I don't see it here, and certainly no indication that she felt degraded in any way. How do you get all that from a simple tweet?
As you have since mentioned other things, I'll retract the question about a simple tweet. But I still see no evidence from you that supports your claims of her arrogance, or of being degraded.

ETA: removed double quoted passage.

Last edited by Fiddle Peghead; 11-19-2018 at 09:59 AM.
  #397  
Old 11-19-2018, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Bijou Drains View Post
2 reasons she gets lots of publicity -

she beat an entrenched incumbent in the primary.
she's from NYC which is the media capital of the US so it's really easy for her to get on CNN, ABC, CBS, etc
I think there's at least some degree of truth to Atrios' frequently stated notion that the media has a tendency to chase down whatever stories conservatives feed them. (For example, the NYT and WaPo had front-page stories on the caravan for 9 or 10 consecutive days, even though it didn't generate much new news from one day to the next.)

Conservatives are having a near-Hillary/Pelosi level reaction to AOC. So she's in the news. It really doesn't take much more explaining than that.

(I was wondering how long they'd keep working themselves up over Hillary. The answer seems to be, until they could find a suitable female replacement. AOC came along in the nick of time. )
  #398  
Old 11-19-2018, 12:32 PM
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Youngest women and full-of-fresh energy leftist? Those are the ingredients for (1) the media shamelessly latching onto a "fresh-faced media darling goes to Washington" narrative, and (2) the conservative poo-flinging regime switching to high gear.
  #399  
Old 11-19-2018, 02:30 PM
Bijou Drains Bijou Drains is offline
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I like that she wants to clear out the deadwood in the Dem party in Congress.

But I just read she is backing Pelosi for speaker. I wonder what kind of payback she is getting for that? I expect she is going to get her pick of favorite committees for voting for that fossil Pelosi.
  #400  
Old 11-19-2018, 04:56 PM
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So, she wasn't stopped because she's the youngest member of Congress in history and might therefore confuse someone in a place filled with interns and staffers her age. No, it had to be because she's a woman and a person of color. Of course. No 29 year old white male would EVER be confused for an intern or staffer, right?
If she was in fact sent to the spouses' luncheon because she was so young, then that just highlights a different sort of sexism: If she's too young to be a Representative herself, then shouldn't she also be too young to be the spouse of a Representative? Except that there's the expectation that successful men will have wives much younger than themselves. And even if that's accurate, it still reflects a sexist reality.
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