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Old 02-27-2019, 06:48 PM
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Latecomer to Lucifer/Questions/Season Four Anticipation


When Lucifer moved to Netflix I discovered and binge-watched it. I have a few random observations and questions about it.

Spoilers for prior seasons will fly freely.

Lucifer is an angel. Yes, he's the Devil, but his species is angel. Or celestial if you prefer that term.

Lucifer is an illegal alien as he was not born in the US and certainly didn't go through proper immigration channels. And has forged documentation. A rather minor point what with bribing police officers, consuming mountains of illicit drugs, and incidents of assault, but there's a potential episode there if someone of the right sort of authority discovers any of that.

Lucifer, and by extension the rest of the angels, is not human, that is, he is not Homo sapiens. So... all that sex is interspecies sex, rishathra, xenosex, or whatever you want to term it. It is NOT bestiality because angels and humans aren't beasts. Although angel/demon and human/demon sex might be bestiality, given that demons don't have souls... except that demons are also clearly sapient.

Presumably, the reason Lucifer can get jiggy so often (92 partners in two months being considered a "dry spell") without STD's is because he isn't human and STD's can't cross that particular species barrier. Which is also why Amenadiel can't actually get chlamydia, although with him "falling"/becoming mortal it's implied that he might start catching human diseases. Sex with Lucifer is safe sex! For similar reasons pregnancy should never be a worry... unless, of course, Dad decides a miracle is in order, then all bets are off.

Since there seems to be a very strong incest taboo among the celestials (angels and their kin) presumably the only sex the angels can have is, in fact, interspecies sex because it's implied that all angels are siblings.

Lucifer's wings make no aerodynamic sense. I can hear him saying "I'm not a bird" But that's OK - his wings don't have to work like a bird's or bat's. Sure, he can fly through the air, but it seems the really important point about them is inter-realm travel. Angel wings can transport you from Earth to Heaven, Heaven to Hell. They look like bird wings (sort of, more or less) but they are no more that sort of wing than the eyespots on a butterfly wing are actual eyes that can see. Butterfly wing eye-spots aren't for seeing, they serve a different purpose than seeing even if they look like eyes (sort of, more or less). Angel wings aren't for flapping-wing flying, they're for inter-realm/inter-dimensional travel. The fact they can carry their owner through the air, or be used to beat up bad guys, are useful things but not their primary purpose. They also aren't wings in the sense of birds or bats because they can, apparently, go through clothes - we've seen his wings manifest through his shirt/vest/suit when he's fully clothed without tearing or ripping his clothes. They might look like wings, but they aren't wings like mortal creatures have. Maybe they exist in different dimension(s) than our usual three?

Lucifer doesn't actually have a British Isles accent (Tom Ellis does, of course, but the actor is not the character and vice versa). We've seen that he can speak any language, and he can also adopt an American accent at will. That's the accent he chooses to have, it's not something he acquired via upbringing and exposure like a human acquires an accent. It's an affectation, like three-piece designer suits.

Based on some of the fight scenes, Lucifer has a much faster reaction time than a human, allowing him to dodge/weave, grab weapons out of an opponent's hands, and so forth. This is not dependent on Amenadiel slowing time, as he does this even when his brother is not around.

Questions: (probably not answered as of yet)

When Lucifer is injured, if Chloe stays nearby does he heal human-slow or faster than that? If Chloe moves outside of whatever radius her anti-magic field has does Lucifer heal faster?

We've seen that Lucifer can regenerate his wings. If he lost some other limb(s) would that likewise regenerate?

I'm kind of curious just how strong Lucifer is. Up to now, he's been as strong as the narrative required, which might be the actual answer: he's as strong as he needs to be to get something done. Or there might be a more concrete answer but we don't know at this point.

Anticipation:

Obviously, Season 4 is going to involve Chloe dealing with the knowledge that Lucifer really is the Devil and he really never has lied to her... even if he doesn't always tell the full truth. Is she going to find out that he's died not once but twice for her benefit? Given that Chloe is protective by nature (being willing to take a bullet for someone else) that might well mess with her head.

What is Chloe's reaction going to be when she realizes she's been rooming with an actual demon, and has left her child in the care of an actual demon at times?

Let's look at the elephant in the room: Lucifer is immortal and immensely old already. Chloe is human and she presumably only has a human lifespan. She's also a good human being and is likely to go to heaven... after which Lucifer will never see her again. No wonder he's so reluctant to form emotional attachments to human beings. Or is this all a ploy by Dad to give Lucifer an incentive to reform/ask forgiveness such that he can get back into heaven again, at least on the occasional day pass? Lucifer is NOT going to want to Chloe wind up in hell. It's a mayfly-December romance. Wonder if they're going to deal with the issues that raises?

Do you think anyone else in the mortal world is going to ... well, not find out Lucifer's secret since he's been anything but secret about it, but realize that he really is the Devil?

I can't imagine Dan would take it well - he and Lucifer have warmed up a bit towards each other but finding out his ex is buddied up with the actual Devil is bound to raise issues. They might not be married anymore but Dan clearly doesn't want anything bad to happen to Chloe.

Wonder how Ella would take it?

And... that's probably long enough an OP.
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Old 02-28-2019, 01:13 PM
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Let's look at the elephant in the room: Lucifer is immortal and immensely old already. Chloe is human and she presumably only has a human lifespan. She's also a good human being and is likely to go to heaven... after which Lucifer will never see her again. No wonder he's so reluctant to form emotional attachments to human beings. Or is this all a ploy by Dad to give Lucifer an incentive to reform/ask forgiveness such that he can get back into heaven again, at least on the occasional day pass? Lucifer is NOT going to want to Chloe wind up in hell. It's a mayfly-December romance. Wonder if they're going to deal with the issues that raises?
SPOILER:
There have been some hints in the TV show that Chloe is more than she seems, and she definitely is in the comic the series is (very) loosely based on. So I wouldn't be surprised if we discover this isn't an issue if the series goes on long enough.
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Old 02-28-2019, 05:14 PM
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SPOILER:
Just the fact she renders Lucifer mortal means she's more than she appears to be... the question is whether or not that would include long life.
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Old 02-28-2019, 08:51 PM
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I don't recall too much theology or angelology/daemonology in this show. Presumably the angels are not like aliens or X-men, just normal (in a sense!) people, except for being miraculous (so if somebody sprouts wings and flies to Hell, or has super strength and glowing eyes, or survives getting shot up, there is no point in trying to work out a logical explanation for exactly how they physically pulled that off). Like in Paradise Lost, wherein Raphael explains to Adam that angels absolutely do eat, drink, and fuck (despite being Spirits), and, notably, that humans have the potential to be ethereal like the angels, and also to fall.

It is not anything mundane like genetics or DNA that determines whether a particular character has divine superpowers or not.

Last edited by DPRK; 02-28-2019 at 08:54 PM.
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Old 02-28-2019, 09:01 PM
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It is not anything mundane like genetics or DNA that determines whether a particular character has divine superpowers or not.
Well, there was a plot point in atleast one episode of Chloe having Lucifers blood to be tested -Lucifer wanted her to test it to prove he wasn't lieing - and Amadeadeal stating that it was actually divine in some way and tht humans wouldn't be able to handle that knowledge.

So - there is something 'genetically' that could be discovered with that test.
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Old 02-28-2019, 09:59 PM
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You are right, there was something like that, at the beginning of Season 2.

In hindsight, though, what tests exactly was Chloe going to perform on the blood that would have revealed its 'divine nature' instead of simply what drugs Lucifer had been taking?
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Old 02-28-2019, 10:34 PM
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They have also done some exploration of using Chloe to make Lucifer mortal.

Last edited by Sunny Daze; 02-28-2019 at 10:37 PM.
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Old 03-01-2019, 12:55 AM
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Ey


I've been enjoying it on Netflix too. I had avoided it previously since it appeared to be a pretty poor adaptation. And it is, but it is a fun enough show on its own merits. I'm glad they gave it another season.

I'm a little unclear on what fallout there will be from Chloe learning about Lucifer. There were two episodes after that, but they were originally meant to air the next season before the semi-cancellation - one didn't really address it and the other was an alternate timeline.

I don't think Lucifer can regenerate his wings. He kept cutting them off and God kept putting them back. Amenadiel lost his and couldn't regenerate them without help.

I'm not sure if Lucifer's blood would be in danger of skewing regular forensic tests so much as, as was demonstrated with his wings, their divine nature might have odd effects on humans and in the wrong hands be dangerous.

As far as demonic babysitting, I'm not really sure that's any worse than libertine bounty hunter.
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Old 03-01-2019, 03:34 AM
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I've been enjoying it on Netflix too. I had avoided it previously since it appeared to be a pretty poor adaptation.
I'm not sure I'd use the word "poor adaption" as it seems very clear that it was intended to be very different from the beginning. More an alternate take on the core concepts rather than an adaption. Also think it was a good move - I think the current show works better than a show more faithful to the comic book would. TV and comic book/graphic novel are very different media with different strengths and weaknesses. Rather like "Once Upon A TIme" is yet another alternate take on the concept.

The fact that it went three seasons, then was picked up by another production outlet after Fox canceled it would indicate they're doing something right. It's not the first time a series radically changed when going from print to visual.

Quote:
I don't think Lucifer can regenerate his wings. He kept cutting them off and God kept putting them back. Amenadiel lost his and couldn't regenerate them without help.
That was actually resolved in season three - how angels feel about themselves affects their physical bodies. The angels are, for lack of a better word, "magical" to some degree although the word has never been used in the show. At the beginning of season three he thought it was God screwing with him but Amenadiel came up with the theory they were doing it to themselves and the last two episodes of that season had Lucifer coming around to that as well.

Quote:
I'm not sure if Lucifer's blood would be in danger of skewing regular forensic tests so much as, as was demonstrated with his wings, their divine nature might have odd effects on humans and in the wrong hands be dangerous.
It probably isn't exactly like our blood. Maybe it just doesn't deteriorate like human blood. Maybe something else. It's pretty clear Amenadiel thinks there's a difference the humans would notice.

Quote:
As far as demonic babysitting, I'm not really sure that's any worse than libertine bounty hunter.
You know, Chloe seems remarkably tolerant of some of Maze's behavior, especially with an 8/9 year old in the household. Maybe tolerating supernatural beings is another of her superpowers?
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Old 03-01-2019, 08:44 AM
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They have also done some exploration of using Chloe to make Lucifer mortal.
It's been an important thread that he is not invulnerable when he's near her. That would mean he loses his angelic properties. And since Chloe seemed to have been created for him (though, technically, she's his niece), it would seem that God could have been planning that they have a child together.
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Old 03-01-2019, 02:37 PM
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He loses some of his angelic traits but not all of them. He retains his super-strength, for example, and his wings work when she's around as we saw at the end of season 3. On a metalevel it's an extended metaphor that caring for someone else leaves you vulnerable.

She's not his niece - Amenadiel only blessed her mother, he didn't participate in the making of Chloe.
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Old 03-01-2019, 02:44 PM
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Missed the edit window:

He loses some of his angelic traits but not all of them. He retains his super-strength, for example, and his wings work when she's around as we saw at the end of season 3. On a metalevel it's an extended metaphor that caring for someone else leaves you vulnerable.

She's not his niece - Amenadiel only blessed her mother, he didn't participate in the making of Chloe.

In the comics angels are incapable of reproducing - there's not word on whether or not that would be the case in the TV version. I'm not sure "have a child" is the end goal here, I think it has more to do with Lucifer's development. "Once Upon A Time" implied that though all parties have free will God is still upping the odds on certain outcomes, "After all, a parent just wants what's best for their child". It sounds cliche, but Lucifer is on a path to find true love and happiness... if nothing screws it up. Which could happen because the universe isn't always a kind place and, let's face it, Lucifer has epic daddy issues and is contrary by nature.

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Old 03-01-2019, 03:36 PM
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It's been an important thread that he is not invulnerable when he's near her. That would mean he loses his angelic properties. And since Chloe seemed to have been created for him (though, technically, she's his niece), it would seem that God could have been planning that they have a child together.
How did you come up with Chole is technically Lucifer's niece? While Amenadiel helped Chole's mom get pregnant, he didn't impregnate her. I read that more of a fertility doctor situation. He help the mom get pregnant with her husband's sperm through some angelic voodoo.
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Old 03-11-2019, 03:15 PM
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Well, while we're all waiting around for Season 4....

Lucifer has issues regarding free will. More specifically, when he first started to understand that Chloe was unusual, and why she was unusual, he more or less freaked out and assumed his Dad put her there, in Lucifer's path, in order to manipulate Lucifer and that Chloe was unwittingly a puppet in Dad's schemes.

In fact, I think the exact opposite is true.

Because Chloe is immune to Lucifer's magical charms she actually has more free will around him than any other human because Lucifer can't manipulate her. If she associates with him it really is because she chooses to do so, not because God or Lucifer compels her to do so. And because Chloe has an "anti-magic" field around her that makes Lucifer vulnerable when he's around her if Lucifer chooses to associate with her then it puts them on equal footing.

Chloe is the only Human that Lucifer has to deal with as an equal with no magical, angelic manipulations.

Which is why Lucifer is so bad at it - he's never had to deal with a Human with true free will in his presence before. He's having to learn how to interact with Humans as if they were real people (which, of course Humans think they are).

I think Lucifer, as of the end of season 3, is starting to understand the Chloe is really a free agent in her own right, that he doesn't have to manipulate everyone around him, he's starting to relate to/understand people better now that he's dealing with someone immune to his powers, and that some of the shit he, Lucifer, has gone through is his own fault and not Dad's.

Amenadiel went through some of that as well - he looked down on Humans as lesser, had no desire to socialize with them, talk to them, associate with them, and with his time-slowing powers he never had to... until he lost his angelic advantages and suddenly had to deal with Humans on their level, as someone not much different from them, and learned to view them as people.

Something, I'll note, their mother never learned to do.

If God is manipulating anything here it's putting his children into situations where they and those around them have genuine free will. It's up to everyone involved to handle it (or not) as they choose.

Which I suppose is a manipulation of a sort - setting up a situation then NOT intervening.

Thoughts?
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Old 03-11-2019, 03:26 PM
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Any word on when season 4 drops?
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Old 03-11-2019, 03:58 PM
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I've heard early April and just plain April, but nothing I can confirm as solid.
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Old 04-14-2019, 06:30 AM
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Netflix has said May 8th.
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Old 04-23-2019, 04:05 PM
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There are currently three trailers out for the new season.

There is the Welcome to Netflix one which is flirting with NSFW.

There is the Pool Trailer

And I don't know if this one will play unless you have Netflix, but a sort of recap of the whole series with some teasing about the upcoming season.

Last edited by Broomstick; 04-23-2019 at 04:09 PM.
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Old 04-23-2019, 06:26 PM
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Yay! *snoopy dance*
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Old 04-23-2019, 07:28 PM
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Two weeks to go - SQUEE!
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Old 04-26-2019, 04:28 PM
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...And another trailer!
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Old 04-26-2019, 05:04 PM
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Oh, that does look fun and enticing! I need to get me some NetFlix!
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Old 05-08-2019, 06:07 AM
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It's here! IT'S HERE!

SQUEE!!!!

Season 4 is now on Netflix (at least in the US). Watched the first two episodes already and no, I'm not going to open spoiler things.

The "recap teaser" is actually the opening bit of the first episode of season 4, a nice recap for us long-term fans and a good background for anyone new to the show.

I will say that despite Lucifer having been "out of the closet" for all this time he has been holding back in regards to his angelic/demonic abilities. No more, at least not around Chloe anymore. It's the difference between telling the parents "I'm gay" and showing them you're gay by tongue-probing your significant other's tonsils at the dinner table.

Oh, and we now know the full title of the final episode - the one that was "XXXXXXXXXXXXX the King of Hell"
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Old 05-08-2019, 05:24 PM
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There were rumors that with the move to Netflix it might get more risque than what broadcast TV allowed. They even alluded to that in one of the promos. So, from what you have seen did it get more adult than before?
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Old 05-08-2019, 05:48 PM
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I am now starting to watch episode 10 - normally I don't binge a whole series in a day, but what the hell, I'm on vacation.

We almost get an actual F-bomb. Otherwise, the swearing is about the same.

Lucifer is less hesitant to get violent in front of the Detective.

More devil face.

More bare skin on Tom Ellis.

More devil face.

The episode title "Orgy Pants to Work"? Yeah. Seriously. The only thing we haven't seen of Tom Ellis is
SPOILER:
his actual cock and balls. LOTS of strategically placed stuff at the nudist colony (which is a teeny bit of a spoiler but I don't think it's much of one and it was fun). Lucifer did not go in there with Chloe (she's too professional to disrobe) and I won't tell you who went in there with him, she's a surprise (no, not Eve, either). The part I liked best? The nudity actually fit within the storyline, arguably, it was not gratuitous, it makes sense in context.


Devil face? Pfffft! So last season!
SPOILER:
Devil body.


And for those of you who aren't admiring how many hours Mr. Ellis put in the at the gym and/or like girl-on-girl action - more of that, too.

A spoiler:
SPOILER:
At one point soon-to-be babby-daddy Amenadiel asks Lucifer to be his child's godfather. Think about that - asking the Devil to be a godparent. Yes, Lucifer tells him that's a Bad Idea.


But, with all that - no, it's not gone to porn, or non-stop gore, or constant swearing. It's just a bit edgier and a bit further than previous, past what is allowed on broadcast TV and short of needing a greater-than-R-rating. And, like I said in one of the spoilers (if you don't want to see them) all of it actually fits into the storyline and is part of the plot, not just thrown in there for yucks.

Now I'm off to see how this all wraps up.
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Old 05-08-2019, 06:18 PM
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Please tell me one of your spoilers includes Maze.
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Old 05-08-2019, 06:52 PM
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No.... but would you like a Maze spoiler? Is that what you.... truly desire?

How about

SPOILER:
Maze as Dr. Linda's Lamaze partner.


And, of course, Maze does get involved with some of the girl-on-girl action. Also

SPOILER:
She and Dan do some bonding over beating the shit out of an LA gang
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Old 05-08-2019, 07:34 PM
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Oh, wait, one difference I definitely noticed:

Broadcast TV never shows anyone smoking any more. Might show a lit cigarette or two, but no one actually drawing on one. Lucifer season 4 definitely has actual smoking going on, actual ashtrays. Tobacco smoking AND pot smoking (I know the tobacco cigarettes are real - whether or not the joints are I guess depends on the jurisdiction in which it is filmed and if they want to to that route rather than a sloppily rolled cigarette to simulate one).

Does that qualify as edgy?
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Old 05-08-2019, 09:10 PM
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No.... but would you like a Maze spoiler? Is that what you.... truly desire?
Struggling to resist... yes... yes it is.
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Old 05-08-2019, 10:32 PM
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Well, I finished the entire 10 episodes.

It's... ah... in some ways the finale is as much a WHAM! as the end of the prior season. It's a very different end. I find it interesting that if there's not another season it would make a satisfactory end to the whole series although I would very much like a season 5.

With only 10 episodes there are basically no extraneous arcs, it's a more condensed story than the prior seasons.

Lucifer continues his character development and actually makes a major epiphany about himself. Chloe's arc involves coping with Lucifer actually really truly being the Devil. Eve's role was not what I originally expected it to be. Ella takes a turn I did not expect. Dan is still in angry mourning for Charlotte. Linda - well, that might be a spoiler. Ditto for Amenadiel. About the only person who doesn't undergo much change is Maze, although we do see how much she has changed in comparison to demons who hadn't left hell and lived in Los Angeles for several years.

But very, very much - if anything it's made more clear that Lucifer IS the Devil than in prior seasons. He's not human.

I do wish, if there is a season 5, more people will learn that Lucifer really is the Devil. What would happen if Dan really knew, or Ella, would be quite interesting.

So ya'll watch a few episodes so we can discuss them.
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Old 05-09-2019, 05:32 PM
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I'm on the sixth episode. Do we have a rule about spoilers?
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Old 05-09-2019, 06:17 PM
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I'm on the sixth episode. Do we have a rule about spoilers?
I've made it to the 7th already. It is hard not to burn through this season.

I think we're waiting at least a week before we go to non-spoilers.
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Old 05-09-2019, 06:27 PM
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Not bingeing. I waited so long for this, I want to prolong the pleasure, not burn through it right away. I am watching one episode per night. Even stretching it out, I'll use them up too fast.

Dan should know about Lucifer. He did know, at the end of the first season. He saw Lucifer die and come back.
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Old 05-10-2019, 09:25 AM
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Hmm... given the reported rate of watching, we can probably start discussing the first episode with spoilers. A week in general is a good idea, but like Tapiotar said, anyone with an interest is going to burn through the season pretty quick.

I'm going to assume going ahead with season 4 episode one is OK at this point. So...

WARNING! WHAT FOLLOWS IS AN INCREDIBLY LONG SPOILER-FILLED POST ON AN EPISODE!

Just from the title "Everything is OK" you know everything is not OK because one continuing feature of this series is that every title gets name-dropped in its episode and every title is meaningful, if not always how you originally think it will be. When we left our heros they had just survived a shoot-out thanks to Chloe wearing a bullet-resistant vest and Lucifer...well, being Lucifer. Actually, Lucifer being a fully manifested angel/devil who is completely pissed off. So pissed off he's killed Cain - a human, even though killing humans is a no-no that apparently even the Devil hasn't committed until now. Chloe gets a great, full-on view of the returned Devil Face and .... here we are a month later. Lucifer is giving another concert to a rapt audience and he is clearly missing Chloe, and the concert ends with someone putting a gun to Lucifer's head. This is the first of several somewhat surrealistic scene changes because in fact there is not a rapt audience, this is a hold up.

In fact, it's a hold up with Mr. Said Out Bitch which is a marvelous call-out to two prior season openers and I really, really like it. From Lucifer's low key reaction to being threatened with a point-blank shooting ('cause he knows it will be no more than an annoyance) to referring back to the "relationship" these two have where Mr. Said Out Bitch always gets the short end of the stick, to the banter "I almost died because of you" "You were driving a stolen Brink's truck full of cash, because of me you're not in jail forever" to evidence of the rampant denial everyone around Lucifer has (Mr. Said Out Bitch revised his memory of Lucifer having wings to a hallucination) to Lucifer not making any effort to hide his abilities to Mr. Said Out Bitch's confession of feeling "mostly terror" when asked to choose from a menu of possibilities. It's a scene full of both darkness and humor, with a dissonance that Lucifer and Mr. Said Out Bitch are often not having the same conversation at the same time. Lucifer clearly makes quite a few references to Chloe and he's obviously deeply concerned that he's scared her off for good. We also learn, during a curb-stomp fight, that Chloe and Lucifer had no opportunity to deal with Chloe's Truly Learning the Truth because the police came in and took her away, what with her having been shot (even if she had the vest) and there being a shoot out and all. Apparently, they had not had even a chance to speak before Chloe took off out of town.

(Which makes me wonder, if any sort of forensics were done, what the forensic techs would have made of all those giant, bloody feathers laying around the scene. Feathers that, presumably, do not match those of any bird. But, maybe, it was too obvious what had gone on and that wasn't done).

Anyhow - it was a great opening scene tying the Netflix series back into the Fox series, setting the current scene, had a fight scene, and enough humor in it to prevent it getting all grimdark. I felt good with this start. Although you do wonder why Mr. Said Out bitch came back for encounter #3 with Lucifer (other than the obvious that he wants money and Lucifer has lots) given how badly things ended for him the first two times. Then again, you don't have to be a genius to be a thief.

And then we cut immediately to Lucifer piling "gold" bars and money into the arms of Mr. Said Out Bitch, who gets to keep his clothes this time, and talking about how he's not just a thief, because obviously Lucifer is trying to convince himself that he's not just the Devil because he wants Chloe to come back. Lucifer is clearly very concerned that being who he is has hurt Chloe (and we all know he loves Chloe and would do anything to protect her - hell, he's died twice for her). The scene ends with Lucifer being the one without pants. With little details like the back of Lucifer's shirt being full of bullet holes and Mr. Said Out Bitch's arms being so full of loot that bits of it are falling off onto the floor, Mazikeen being completely nonplussed at some random guy walking out of the penthouse with his arms full of loot while Lucifer is pulling up his trousers, and their conversation where it's apparent that Mazikeen plotting to kill and betray Lucifer is, to Lucifer, a perfectly normal thing that he has no hard feelings about because, of course, Lucifer isn't human. This is something that will be more apparent throughout this entire season, not the least because he no longer has anything to hide in front of Chloe.

But do note the two points here: first, none of us are defined by just one part of who we are. Second, the question of whether or not people can or will change given an opportunity. Mr. Said Out Bitch is now a wealthy man who doesn't have to steal. Is he going to take this opportunity for a different path or not? (We may have to wait for the first episode of season 5 to find out). These two questions come up every episode in this season, they are the on-going memes here.

But the conversation with Maze makes it clear, to me at least, that the often-completely-clueless Lucifer of season one has learned much more about how humans think and react. While the month of silence is clearly distressing to Lucifer he's savvy enough to know that he has to give Chloe space to process her revelation even if the demon/angel approach would be to force the issue.

No, I'm not going to turn this into a total recap of the episode, I just think that those opening 7 minutes are important not just to the episode but the entire season.

We get a brief bit where it's established that Dan is still messed up and angry about Charlotte's death and any warm feelings between him and Lucifer, if they ever existed, are gone. Ella is having issues with God. Then Chloe shows up! Yay! Except she is so not reacting. She's acting like nothing ever happened. Lucifer, of course, is over the top in his reaction, staring at Chloe like a total creeper, until they go off for a private chat. Lucifer has been waiting a month to find out if the woman he loves is going to reject him for good because of who and what he is and she's... acting like it's just another Tuesday. She's not in denial (she's not excusing it as a hallucination) but she is so... non-reactive. So non-reactive that even Lucifer picks up that this isn't normal. Although, to this human's eyes there is definitely some body-language at odds with her voice and words. Chloe is in denial and despite her saying "everything is OK" no, it's not. Hence, Lucifer's response of "What the f--" [Title drop]

Oh, yeah - so glad they kept the theme music and title from prior seasons. This isn't a reboot or a re-imaging of Lucifer, it really is the show being continued seamlessly.

And, of course Lucifer goes running to Dr. Linda where we get more evidence of his character development as he talks to her. Also, we get some evidence of her coming to understand Lucifer a little better, too - he's not, after all, a human being even if he has some of the same issues as one. He also has a lot of issues no human ever would.

Then we get Lucifer demonstrating the protective denial all humans in this world have regarding him, and apparently other celestial beings. He flat out tells Ella the truth and she just does not take him seriously. Chloe, who used to be on the other side, is standing behind Ella, very concerned, as Lucifer goes on and on. There's a TVTropes trope for this which I can't recall for the moment but it's been in place from day one here. Chloe is just getting it rubbed in her face that it exists. Lucifer doesn't have to hide who he is at all, and never has. I'd say it's another "mojo" he has, except it seems to apply to all Celestials and not just him.

Speaking of "mojo" - it's interesting that Chloe is not only completely in the know about his "what do you desire" shtick, but is also so familiar with it that she can correct Lucifer's technique in using it when they're talking to the honey stand owner. It's a nice, subtle way of showing how well they know each other and how well they work together.

The "Pure Honey" stand is where we start to get more of a third meme for this season - that people are not only complex, they aren't what they first appear to be. Nice, sweet Bob is actually a former mob enforcer. The mob guys - who are, indeed, criminals - aren't pure evil. They have standards and actually they're happy Bob turned state's witness and put Uncle Vin away for 50 years, bear him no ill will, and actually contacted him to warn him of danger to protect him. The bad guy here is the Federal Marshall who is supposed to protect the criminals in witness protection and is actually either engineering their deaths by outing them or actively doing the deed himself.

Definitely, we're getting more open use of Lucifer's inhuman abilities. He has no hesitation in using his strength in front of Chloe anymore. You would think that, say, a US Marshall who encounters someone who can effortlessly lift him overhead with just one hand is going to say something about that, because that's not normal for anyone, much less someone with the sort of lean physique Lucifer has, but there's that Denial Shield going up again.

We get some more of the "everything is OK" words out of Chloe when she talks to Maze in her home, along with "everything is NOT OK" body language.

Amenadiel shows up at Lucifer's penthouse and the two brothers have a friendly chat. During it, it becomes clear that, for all his increased knowledge of humans Lucifer did NOT pick up on the subtle body language cues that things are NOT alright with Chloe. (I suspect some people in the audience might not, either - Lauren German is actually a pretty good actor, and I'm impressed by her juggling of saying one thing and expressing another, but some humans aren't good with body-language cues, either).

Lucifer digging into a big jar of avocado honey with his fingers is just the sort of ill-mannered thing we'd expect from him, but also his expression while doing do is pretty funny - normally it would have to be some cocaine or other drug for him to look like that. Wow, that must be amazing honey!

But the smiles and happiness is interrupted by Chloe flinching at Lucifer's touch. She has NEVER done that before. This is a woman who has stepped in front of a gun to protect someone else, who regularly goes up against really bad guys, who deals with all sorts of horrors as part of her job. She never flinches. But she did. And that's when Lucifer really starts to grasp that no, everything is NOT OK.

Oh, by the way - we still have a murder investigation going on in between all this relationship stuff. This, by the way, is one of my favorite such on the show - no one is exactly what they seem, everyone is lying, what you assume are peoples' motivations aren't actually what's driving them.

Having Maze speak her native tongue, Lilim, was pretty funny, actually. It was so stereotypically demon-sounding. The sweet smile as she does so really sells it. Not to mention Dr. Linda being hyperactive and pacing to the point Maze asks if she needs to pee or something. This is the first hint we have that Something Is Up With Linda. Tiny Dr. Linda wanting to spar with Maze is hilarious, as is Maze's look of amazed joy when Dr. Linda actually takes a swing and connects but it's nice to see they really have become best friends and any lingering issues with jealousy and such are gone.

Lucifer sitting in the precinct still eating the honey with a look of rapture on his face - funny! Usually its the illegal evidence he consumes.

Then there's the whole pool scene with the Marshall - pointing a gun at an innocent woman's head, a woman who is tied to a chair and is in danger of death from drowning if she's shoved into the pool never mind a bullet to the head - and saying "I'm not the bad guy!". Yes, yes you ARE the bad guy if you're doing that. Lucifer gleefully mentioning there are so many ways to kill a person - as he should know, being acquainted with so many bad people in hell. Lenore's big crime from the Marshall's viewpoint: she forgave a monster. Hey, could that have a parallel with some other people we know....?

Then there's the memes of whether or not people can change, and of a person's opportunity to change being "stolen" by their murder - which goes all the way back to the very first episode of season one, when Delilah resolved to change and was shortly gunned down, leading to Lucifier's association with the LAPD and Chloe.

Although I have to wonder if Chloe's month long absence lead Lucifer to get careless about potential injury - he apparently tries to pull the bend-the-gun-barrel trick on the marshal and gets a gruesome hand injury for the effort. Chloe seems remarkably unfazed by her partner getting shot, or maybe she's just not aware of it given that Lucifer isn't immobilized by the pain. She does tell him to pursue the marshal while she rescues Lenore, who was knocked into the pool. That's when we get that very nice demonstration of just how freakin' strong Lucifer is. Even with a severely damaged hand he's able to halt an SUV and he enjoys doing it. Chloe's expression clearly shows that even though she knows he's unnaturally strong she didn't know how strong, or how much he hid from her/held back in the past.

Apparently, no one is at all surprised that Maze can throw a bad guy down on the floor like a sack of garbage, indeed, one gets the impression this is now a routine thing in the precinct. Maze also finds out Trixie is not still mad at her, in fact, was missing her a great deal... which is the first crack in the wall of lies Chloe built. Amenadiel reconnects with Dan. But it's bittersweet in that the very angel who took Charlotte to heaven is telling Dan she is in heaven and he can't believe Amenadiel because of the Denial Shield around the supernatural in this world. As much as protects humans, it hurts them, too.

Lucifer trying to play the piano with a hole in his hand is actually rather sad. It segues into Lucifer and Chloe having one of the frankest conversations of the whole series. Oddly enough, it's mostly Lucifer who talks about fear, rejection, and acceptance and Chloe reassures him that despite seeing that he really is THE Devil she still sees him as her partner. What a warm and fuzzy ending...

Oh, wait, there's more. An inverted shot of a church, Chloe crying, a priest - something is really really wrong here... Like everyone else, Chloe is not what she seems, she's lying and hiding.

Remember this phrase, though: remember what you're doing is the best thing for everyone on Earth. Because that's where everything ends up in the very end.
  #35  
Old 05-10-2019, 10:55 AM
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I binged it over two days, and was surprised/pleased about how much story and character development took place. If there is a fifth season(and I hope there is), I'm betting it will be a season-long arc involving the group finding a way to rectify what happened in the last episode.
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Old 05-10-2019, 11:02 AM
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I've started watching. The one thing that's weird is that I'm not used to a Netflix series having commercial breaks. I figure the scripts were written with the assumption the show would be on broadcast, and they didn't try to change it.
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Old 05-10-2019, 11:06 AM
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I've started watching. The one thing that's weird is that I'm not used to a Netflix series having commercial breaks. I figure the scripts were written with the assumption the show would be on broadcast, and they didn't try to change it.
I think it is set up that way for later syndication.
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Old 05-10-2019, 11:28 AM
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It's also consistent with the way the first three seasons were done - if it's the same team of writers it may simply be that's they way they're used to doing things. They really changed very, very little going from broadcast to Netflix.
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Old 05-11-2019, 12:51 AM
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The Eve plot was disappointing. It seemed like she’s there to avenge her sons, when he sees her, Amenadiel’s first instinct is to think she is there to take revenge for Cain.

Several times in the season, they hinted that was her true purpose, yet at the end, nothing.
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Old 05-11-2019, 04:28 PM
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It was not my assumption that Eve was there to avenge anyone. Cain has certainly been punished for being a murderer, which means Abel is avenged, and given the shenanigans Cain no doubt got up to during an outrageously long life... well, mama might be sad her boy is dead and in hell but probably knows he deserves it. The thought occurred to me Eve might be out for revenge but it was pretty clear from when she first showed up she really was on Earth to party.

Her arc concerns the question of free will vs. predestination, hence her multiple references to being created to be someone's wife and that was her appointed role regardless of what she might want. The reason she likes Lucifer is because he offered her a choice. They get on well because they both rejected their predestined roles in the scheme of things.

SPOILER:
Unless you want to follow the idea that God let Eve leave heaven for Earth as part of a long game to get Lucifer back to hell. Obviously, trying to force the most rebellious angel in the universe to go back isn't going to work out well, but if you can get Lucifer to go back to rule hell of his own free will... Well, that would work. It's an idea I had after the final episode and I'd love to kick it around, but it's too spoilery to do that in the open right now I think. I mean, surely God is at least as good a setting in motion a chain of events as Uriel was, right?

Last edited by Broomstick; 05-11-2019 at 04:28 PM.
  #41  
Old 05-11-2019, 04:48 PM
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One thing the mythos of the show has made clear, the celestials exist and operate at the pleasure of God himself. The powers and abilities they have are those He wishes them to have or not as the case may be. If God wanted Lucifer back in hell, he would be. The celestials have significant autonomy in their actions, but that seems to have been a result of a decision to give them that, not an intrinsic thing with them.

I disagree about Eve. Firstly, Able is **also** in hell, per the last season.
As far as Cain is concerned, we have seen him do good in his life as well. We have seen several times that Mrs Adam is far more cunning than she lets on and on multiple occassions its hinted that she has an agenda beyond Lucifer.
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Old 05-11-2019, 05:28 PM
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For a little girl solidarity, I'm going to ask you NOT to refer to her as "Mrs Adam" both because she clearly was in an arranged marriage about which she was not consulted, she isn't even his first wife (Lilith was Adam's first wife. And Mazikeen's mother.), and she herself has expressed distaste at being regarded as just an extension of Adam ("Why do they still put his name first?"). Her name is "Eve". No last name because when there were only two people in the world that was hardly necessary.

For darn sure, though, she's a liar. Even states outright in her first conversation with Lucifer that she's a rule-breaker. She might have been good enough to get into heaven, but she's no saint!

Sooooo.... is she working on her own agenda? Or someone else's? How much of her own personality does she have anyway? She tried to change to please Adam. She tries to change to please Lucifer. She tries to imitate other people. I'm not sure she knows who she is at all, or what she herself actually wants. Eve comes across as really naive and immature to me, a child in an adult body. But she's cunning - she got from wherever she had been buried to Los Angeles with no money, no passport, no ID, not really but whatever clothes she was wearing (and I have no idea where she got those, it's never addressed).

She's not out for revenge, but she does play a critical part in the series arc.

Anyhow - it's clearly obvious that even "evil" entities in the Luciferverse can perform good acts. Cain doing good may or may not wipe out past misdeeds, or keep him out of hell (and you gotta wonder what the afterlife for him is going to be like given that he pissed off the Devil, who now has a personal animosity towards him). Eve describes Abel as "gentle" but apparently he and Cain fought viciously and Abel was naughty enough to wind up in hell. Not to mention that when we do see Abel he's far from what we'd call a nice guy.

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  #43  
Old 05-11-2019, 05:38 PM
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One thing the mythos of the show has made clear, the celestials exist and operate at the pleasure of God himself. The powers and abilities they have are those He wishes them to have or not as the case may be. If God wanted Lucifer back in hell, he would be. The celestials have significant autonomy in their actions, but that seems to have been a result of a decision to give them that, not an intrinsic thing with them.
Free will is kind of pointless if you take it away as soon as someone makes a decision you don't like.

I think the long game on the part of God in this 'verse is to get Lucifer to go back to hell voluntarily. God is all-powerful, right? He could just zap Lucifer back to hell but he doesn't.

I think folks in the Luciferverse do have free will, including the Celestials, but I think God also loads the dice. If you have, say, a kid who really, really, really likes chocolate ice cream but hates strawberry ice cream and you offer the kid a choice between chocolate and strawberry you are giving the kid free choice.... but it's also a pretty sure bet which one the kid is going to freely choose. So... is it still free choice if you already know what that person will freely choose? Is it still free choice if you deliberately limit the range of choices?
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Old 05-12-2019, 04:51 PM
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So.... I was wondering...

There's a quick line in this season that says only a Celestial can rule hell, it's constructed so no demon can take the throne of hell. That pretty much means from the start some angel had to rule hell. That leads me to the following questions:

If Lucifer hadn't rebelled would he have still wound up on the hell throne?

Did hell not exist until after Lucifer's rebellion?

If Lucifer never goes back does that mean one of his siblings gets stuck with the job?

Furthermore -
Why did God let Lucifer leave hell at all if it was so important to keep a lid on the place?

Or is that part of the "free will" of the Luciferverse?

If Lucifer (like everyone else in hell) could leave at any time why did he stay there so long? (except that earlier episodes implied he had been to Earth before, not to mention that whole tempting Eve in the garden thing)

If Lucifer can (and has) come and go whenever he wants what made him go back at all? Lingering obedience to God (who is more powerful than he is)? Acceptance of the hell throne as punishment for his rebellion?

And what made him dig in his heels this time and refuse to go back? He'd just finally had it?

Did God tolerate his absence because he knew Lucifer really needed a break from his duties as the Devil?

I still think that, for whatever reason, it's somehow important that Lucifer returns to rule hell of his own volition. Maybe God thinks it's more fun that way rather than strong-arming everyone for the result he wants.

(I have some other stuff that I want to discuss, but it would spoil the end of the season so I'm going to hold off it for awhile.)
  #45  
Old 05-12-2019, 05:45 PM
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In the comic, Lucifer finally left hell (permanently) because he had finally just had it. He got sick of lording it over demons (manipulating them was fun at first, but what's the point?), and tired of being accused of being somehow responsible for the sins and failures of mortals. Also he said that if he was in hell as a punishment for rebelling, not only had he long since finished paying for it, but he had come to realize that his rebellion, far from being in defiance of God, was actually yet another instance of being manipulated into fulfilling part of God's master plan.

As for the other questions, he says that if it hadn't been him, some other angel would have rebelled. Hell was where he and his comrades fell into when they were kicked out of the Silver City (so presumably it was already there...) After he fucks off (first to Perth, then Los Angeles), eventually a couple of other angels (Remiel and Duma) get stuck with the job.

Here's a question: why was Asherah (or whatever her name was) in hell at the end of Season 1? Did the writers ever attempt to explain it?
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Old 05-12-2019, 06:02 PM
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In the first season, Amenadiel is given the additional charge of well...Angel in-charge of hell.
A fact he is not happy about.
No idea who got stuck with the duty since.
  #47  
Old 05-12-2019, 08:27 PM
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In the comic, Lucifer finally left hell (permanently) because he had finally just had it.
Yeah, but I think it's pretty clear that the Lucifer!TV is a different universe (or collection of universes) than Lucifer!comic

Quote:
Here's a question: why was Asherah (or whatever her name was) in hell at the end of Season 1? Did the writers ever attempt to explain it?
Nope.

And The Goddess of All Creation was never given a name on the TV show. She's called "Asherah" because of a ancient Canaanite (or related tribe) Goddess who may or may not have been a consort of Yahweh at some point. Clearly, though, by the time the Old Testament was standardized she had been retconned out of it, if she had ever been there in the first place.

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In the first season, Amenadiel is given the additional charge of well...Angel in-charge of hell.
A fact he is not happy about.
No idea who got stuck with the duty since.
Or nobody had it, which is why the demons got so uppity towards the end of season 4 (shh! Spoilers!)
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Old 05-12-2019, 08:35 PM
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While Charlotte was called "mom". at least from what we have seen on the mythology of the show, she is not the creator or co creator, she is a created celestial just like the others. Which is why she is sent to hell later.
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Old 05-12-2019, 08:51 PM
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Um... well, no, in "God Johnson" the story is that God and Goddess meeting created the Big Bang, and I think there are other references to it as well. The idea is that while this may be God's universe/creation God didn't create the Goddess, she's an equal of sorts.

There was that bit in "They're Back, Aren't They?" where Lucifer makes a comment about "unless Dad got jiggy with another Celestial babe after mom" but that would be referring to a half-sibling of Lucifer's, which technically wouldn't even have to be a Celestial i suppose, it's just implying that Sam would need to be more powerful than a human to take away Lucifer's devil face and give him back wings. Of course, later on we find out that it was Lucifer doing that to himself.

There was also Maze complaining about how hard it was to torture an entity without a physical body, whereas the angels certainly do have physical forms. The GoAC isn't human, but she's not an angel (in any sense of the word) either.

Last edited by Broomstick; 05-12-2019 at 08:52 PM.
  #50  
Old 05-13-2019, 08:13 AM
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Why, yes, I am slightly obsessing about this show, why do you ask?

There are certainly worse things I could be doing.

So, for today's consideration: What is Lucifer's real form?

Is his "true" face that of the Devil or that of the angel? What is his true form?

My answer behind the spoiler, not so much because it's full of spoiler but because I want to hear your answer before you read mine.

SPOILER:
The binary choice between devil and angel is false - his true form is both. For all that Lucifer is the terrifying, punishing Devil he is also an angel and capable of kindness, forgiveness, and selflessness. He isn't one thing or the other, he's both. Which is something he needed to realize and Chloe helped him do that by accepting that he is not only her partner and someone she loves but he is also just as much the Devil and the King of Hell. You don't have one without the other with him. That's why the King of Hell still has white angel wings and a beautiful face, as well as another monstrous form. As he says to the would-be robber in the first episode, paraphrased: you're a thief, but that's not all you are. Lucifer is the Devil, but that's not all he is.
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